Bill C-5 (Historical)

Species at Risk Act

An Act respecting the protection of wildlife species at risk in Canada

Supply

[Garry Breitkreuz, Canadian Alliance, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

moved:

That, in the opinion of this House, the government should cease and desist its sustained legislative and political attacks on the lives and livelihoods of rural Canadians and the communities where they live.

Mr. Speaker, I will be splitting my time with the hon. member for Medicine Hat.

The topic for today's official opposition motion does not come from us as MPs but from Canadians. We are a vast country and the vast majority of the people who live beyond the glare of the big city lights are fed up. They feel neglected by the Liberal government and they are telling us so. I imagine that Liberal backbench MPs have been told the same thing by their constituents for the last eight years, but sadly these common sense appeals from rural voters have fallen on the deaf ears of the Liberals.

As evidence of this I will cite that over the last couple of weeks a fear of being dethroned during the next election has been spreading among the Liberal backbenchers. Some of them have even been brave enough to speak up against the Prime Minister's dictatorial ways. These Liberal MPs will again accept minor word changes by the government and consider that a victory. The Liberal elite laughs at how easily duped they are: A few grants and handouts later, they are back barking like trained seals.

If the constituents in those Liberal ridings want to see real change, they should elect Canadian Alliance MPs. We have been in the lead in championing these issues important to ordinary Canadians for the last eight years. The government implements our policies, but much too slowly to make the dramatic changes that are needed to turn our economic engines into economic dynamos. The Liberals would rather use taxes and red tape until the industries are hurting so bad that they need to subsidize them.

Only when the Liberals are subsidizing things do they consider their programs and policies a success. Slush funds and political patronage they understand; economic development they do not. Slush funds, by the way, are used mainly to buy votes. If the government had implemented Reform Party agricultural policies in 1994, many thousands of farmers would not be facing the crisis they are today. Unfortunately in eight years the Liberals have learned nothing. In fact they have become more arrogant, anti-democratic and corrupt. They look for new ideas among the bureaucrats and Liberal backroomers when the best ideas are right in front of their noses. All they have do is listen to the people who are on the long-suffering end of their failed policies and programs.

The Liberals are experts at pitting one group of Canadians against the other and nowhere is this more evident than in the way they have pitted urban voters against rural voters, the very essence of what we are bringing forward today. The Liberals play up to animal rights groups at the expense of farmers, hunters and fishermen. They try to ram animal cruelty legislation through parliament and make farmers out to be the bad guys when the opposite is true. No one cares more about animals than farmers do. The Liberals play up to the environmental lobby groups by trying to ram endangered species legislation through the House, but they are dishonest with both environmentalists and farmers because the laws they wish to enact will not protect endangered species and will force farmers to abandon their land without being paid fair market value for their land.

The Liberals play up to urban voters by telling them they are doing something to fight violent crime in the city by forcing millions of law-abiding citizens to register their guns, this despite data from Statistics Canada and insurance company actuaries that prove that responsible gun owners are no threat to themselves, their families, neighbours or communities. Anyone listening today must be starting to see a trend developing here. Last week the backbencher from Dufferin--Peel--Wellington--Grey acknowledged this serious problem in a letter to his caucus colleagues. He stated:

I believe that unless [the bill] is amended, there will be a perception in rural Canada that once again a law tailored to urban interests is being thrust upon the rural community. Those of us representing rural ridings know all too well the divisiveness and distrust that remains from our government's passage of C-68, the gun registration law.

That strikes to the very heart of what we are talking about today.

Our speakers will outline failure after failure of Liberal policies and programs. Today we will describe Liberal legislation and programs that have failed rural Canadians: legislation like Bill C-5, Bill C-15B, Bill C-68 and Bill C-4 from 1998, which perpetuated the fiftieth year of the monopoly of the Canadian Wheat Board. We will describe programs like useless regional economic development funds and corporate handouts that are really slimy Liberal slush funds buying votes instead of creating real development opportunities.

We will describe today how rural Canadians have been ignored and neglected by the Liberal ruling elite while the Liberal backbenchers sit on their duffs in the House, scared they will lose their perks and access to their slush funds if they start to really represent the true needs and wishes of their constituents. We will describe Liberal neglect and mismanagement of trade issues to the detriment of the softwood lumber producers and the communities where they live and work, and Liberal neglect and mismanagement of the foreign trade and subsidy issues to the detriment of Canadian farmers and their communities.

Not only will the House hear a dry, statistical and economic argument today, it will hear about real people in real communities who are hurting because of Liberal laws and Liberal neglect.

My own province of Saskatchewan lost 15,000 jobs in the last year alone. Report Newsmagazine recently reported that the population of Saskatchewan has dropped by 26% in the last three decades. Saskatchewan should not be a have not province. Liberal policies and programs perpetuate Saskatchewan's have not status and it has to stop now. The Liberal failure to allow Canadian wheat producers to sell their wheat directly to value added processing like pasta plants is just one glaring example of Liberal neglect and stupidity.

The one area of economic opportunity in Saskatchewan is guiding and outfitting, but what do the Liberals do? They force every American hunter to pay a tax of $50 to come into Canada. Many of them stayed home last year, and it will get worse. Who are the Liberals hurting with this new tax? They are hurting farmers who are forced into getting into outfitting to help finance the losses they were suffering on the farm. Again they are at the receiving end of failed Liberal policies and programs. The Liberals are hurting aboriginal guiding and outfitting companies, one of the few economic opportunities for aboriginals living on remote reserves. Liberals would rather pay welfare than get out of the way and let aboriginal entrepreneurs prove that they can pull themselves up by their own bootstraps.

What if a farmer needs to go out and buy a new rifle to shoot the coyotes that are attacking his cattle? The Department of Justice documents put the regulatory cost of buying a rifle at $279. That is before even buying the rifle and bullets. That is absolutely ridiculous and the government has the nerve to say it is not doing anything to negatively impact on law-abiding citizens who use firearms for their own livelihood.

Before my time is up I want to leave everyone with one last message for our friends in urban Canada. The Canadian Alliance is not playing the Liberal game of pitting one group of Canadians against another. We believe that sound rural and resource development policies create jobs, opportunities and wealth in urban centres. It is no secret that all the mines are in the north but most of the money from those mines flows through Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal to benefit all of the citizens of these cities.

When farmers succeed, the Canadian economy grows and jobs are created in urban centres. Development of Canada is a team effort. Unfortunately, for the last eight years the Liberals have been neglecting half of the team.

I predict that in the next election campaign the Liberals will again try to use labels to smear their opponents rather than discuss the issues important to Canadians. Today's motion is a key part of the debate that needs to take place.

Today the Canadian Alliance is saying to rural and northern Canadians “We know you are fed up and we are not going to let the Liberals get away with it any more. Like a friend of mine once said “To light a fire you start at the bottom, and it will spread upwards”. If we want the economy to start burning we need to get out of the way of our basic resource sectors; we need to stop pouring cold water all over them and instead get them back on track, be it the fisheries on our east and west coasts, the farms all across Canada, the forestry sector, the mining, oil and gas sector, or the tourism industry for hunting and shooting sports. All these rural based industries are being held back by destructive Liberal policies or neglect.

The message I have for our city cousins is this: “Please help us, for it is the economic health of urban Canada and your own jobs that are affected too”.

Briefings or Negotiations

[Vic Toews, Canadian Alliance, Provencher, MB]

moved:

That, in the opinion of this House, the government should never exclude elected provincial government officials from any briefings or negotiations with provincial civil servants concerning legislation, regulations, treaties or agreements of any kind.

Mr. Speaker,I am pleased to rise to speak to this motion. The motion arises as a result of my personal experience as a provincial justice minister dealing with negotiations with the federal government on the Youth Criminal Justice Act.

While I was a provincial minister I was told by my staff that I could not attend negotiations or discussions with federal officials, nor could I be briefed by my own staff with respect to these meetings with federal officials despite the very real financial, political and administrative interests the provincial government had in administering not only the Young Offenders Act but the new act that has been put in its place.

I initiated the motion after the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights barred the appearances of provincial attorneys general during hearings on the Youth Criminal Justice Act, Bill C-7. The newer members of the committee, such as myself, were told that it was a rule or a convention of the committee to not hear from elected provincial officials. The government members voted down a motion supported by all four opposition parties to waive this rule. As a result, the committee was only able to hear from non-elected provincial officials.

The Youth Criminal Justice Act, which replaces the Young Offenders Act, is enforced on a day to day basis by provincial officials and authorities. While the justice committee regularly hears testimony from the federal attorney general, unbelievably we were prevented from hearing from the officials who are actually responsible for implementing the legislation, paying for it and for making it work: the provincial attorneys general.

Despite the numerous concerns expressed about the lack of consultation with provincial authorities in the ongoing debate over this bill, astonishingly the government members on the justice committee said that they did not believe it was appropriate to invite elected representatives from provincial governments to make representations here in Ottawa. While they discussed matters with staff, they would not hear from the elected representatives who are politically accountable to the people of the various provinces.

Given that the provinces are often shouldered with the burden of the costs in implementing new laws, it is a tremendously important issue for provincial attorneys general or any other provincial minister administering a federal law who have to justify to the taxpayers the moneys they will have to spend. As elected officials responsible for the expenditure of funds and working in partnership with the federal government, there can be no relevant objection to them explaining their views and concerns to parliament.

On the issue of funding, I recognize that the federal government has indicated that it is willing to spend more money to implement the Youth Criminal Justice Act but we know that it will never reach a 50:50 partnership as the act had originally intended. Essentially the provinces will continue to bear about 75% of the cost of this act, and possibly even more in the years to come.

The provincial attorneys general and the taxpayers they represent who are shouldering the bulk of the financial burden of this act could simply say that they will not enforce this legislation or any other legislation the federal government imposes on them in the future. This was done with Bill C-68 where provincial attorneys general said that they would not co-operate in that federal act because it did not meet the needs of the people of their provinces.

The attorneys general of Quebec, Ontario and Manitoba are not required to enforce the new youth justice legislation. They could simply say “Forget it. Let the federal government do it”. They could refuse to accept the delegation to prosecute under that act or to indeed spend any moneys under that act.

Even if that might be an unlikely possibility, and even though in Bill C-68, for example, they did refuse that delegation, common sense, good government and co-operative federalism demand that the provincial attorneys general be allowed to come to Ottawa to explain the difficulties they may foresee in making the legislation work.

It is critical that the federal government continues to work co-operatively and in good faith with the political figures who are responsible to the taxpayers of their respective provinces.

The motion also indirectly addresses the fundamental concerns of parliamentarians who often see committee work as ineffective or irrelevant. During the justice committee hearing in which we discussed whether or not to hear the elected provincial officials, the parliamentary secretary to the minister of justice at the time, the hon. member for Erie--Lincoln, said:

With respect to the ministers, they have more than ample opportunity to speak to the Minister of Justice at various federal-provincial-territorial meetings that go on frequently, and went on with this specific legislation. They've had more than ample opportunity to present their views to the minister.

Even if that is in fact correct, which it is not, having had that experience as a provincial justice minister where we were not consulted nor did we have an opportunity to discuss the act with the federal minister, as the member for Winnipeg--Transcona so aptly pointed out at the committee, it appeared that it did not even occur to the parliamentary secretary that perhaps the justice committee might form a different opinion or might even be a different entity in some respects from the federal justice minister.

The parliamentary secretary sat in his chair and said that ministers of justice in the provinces can talk to the federal minister of justice and that was good enough. This lack of democratic consultation is exactly what many Canadians, including parliamentarians, find so disconcerting about the entire legislative process.

There are only two significant ways for individual members to contribute to the political process under the process that we presently have today in parliament. One is through the introduction of private members' bills and the other is through parliamentary committees. However it is now apparent that even these avenues are being shut off. This was demonstrated recently when the Prime Minister rejected the extensive work of a committee reviewing the contentious species at risk legislation, Bill C-5. All Liberal members in the House were instructed to vote against the committee amendments, including amendments that would have guaranteed compensation to landowners for land expropriated under the legislation.

Similarly, last week the new Minister of Justice rejected the recommendations of the parliamentary committee that proposed important changes to protect the interests of children caught up in bitter custody battles after divorce.

Those are but a couple of examples of why so many Canadians, including parliamentarians themselves, have become disillusioned with our political system. What is the point of an all party justice committee when the Liberal majority on the committee is simply an appendage of the justice minister?

Although the motion will not necessarily address issues of democratic reform in parliament, it would go far to remedy one particular consequence of the dysfunctional nature of parliamentary committees. The motion as worded would give parliamentarians the opportunity to confer on a number of fronts with both elected and non-elected provincial officials regarding any matter crossing areas of provincial and federal jurisdiction.

By working more positively and proactively with the elected political figures who are responsible and accountable to the people of their respective provinces, the House could demonstrate an unprecedented measure of good faith that would go a long way to improving co-operative federalism in the country.

Although the motion is not votable, I would hope that it would be a starting point for future discussions on this matter.

I have the minutes from the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights as of April 4, 2001. I want to read a few of the comments that were made by members in voting down hearing from provincial officials. When I stated:

I understand there is a standing rule that prohibits elected officials from coming here, and I think that's unfortunate.

The member for Winnipeg--Transcona then expressed his concern and the chair indicated the following:

The rule, the tradition, the convention predates the chair's being a member of the committee, but my understanding is that there are technical aspects of this the provinces would have to be responsible for administering, and we wanted to bring in the technical people who would be doing that. Therefore, what we wanted to do was bring in deputy attorneys general and representatives of the government, rather than elected officials. That was what I understood.

The member for Winnipeg--Transcona then raises other points, saying that on this kind of bill there are political matters in the very best sense and there are federal-provincial issues with respect to the allocation of resources.

The parliamentary secretary then said the following, and it was astounding. He said:

Mr. Chair, I stand to be corrected, but the suggestion that we have not heard from the provinces before this committee would be inaccurate. We have heard from officials. To my recollection, certainly in the case of the Province of Manitoba, the Province of British Columbia, the Province of Ontario I believe...invitations were extended to the provinces as well. We're certainly very happy to hear from the individuals who work with this legislation day to day.

With respect to the ministers, they have more than ample opportunity to speak to the Minister of Justice at various...meetings...They've had more than ample opportunity to present their views to the minister.

The point is however that they were not allowed to present their views to committee.

Perhaps the height of Liberal majority arrogance on the justice committee was seen when one Liberal member stated the following with respect to the motion in favour of having elected representatives there. He said:

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I just want to say that I would not be supporting the motion on the basis that I've spent two years as parliamentary secretary to the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, and I can see that changing our convention would be simply opening it up to a series of fed-bashers. They would come here, the way they do, with the media in tow, and get into that. That's why I think the rule or the convention makes sense, to have officials who aren't going to be here to play the political game. As much as we are discussing political issues, I don't want to be captive to a round of fed-bashing, which I think this would inevitably lead to.

We are talking about the elected representatives of the people of the various provinces. They are responsible for administering and enforcing the legislation.The point of view of the parliamentary secretary is that this is simply fed-bashing. That is the problem with this government. Liberal members think that unless they can absolutely control any discussions to arrive at a predetermined result, it is simply fed-bashing.

This is a federal system. The federal attorney general has the right to speak to the provincial attorneys general. However we, as justice committee members or any other committee members, should be entitled to hear from these elected officials. They are responsible for the payment of this in large part. They are responsible for prosecution. They are responsible for administration. This is a shameful example of how the government refuses to co-operate with the provinces.

The provincial attorneys general could simply say that they will no longer prosecute under the criminal code and that they will leave it to the federal attorney general. They can say they will no longer prosecute under the youth justice legislation. However they are attempting to work co-operatively with the federal government, but unfortunately the Liberal majority on that committee refuses to hear from those who have significant input on this matter.

Agriculture

[David Anderson, Liberal, Minister of the Environment]

Mr. Speaker, I thought I answered this question for the Alliance earlier this week. The section is section 64 of Bill C-5. If the Alliance members would care to read it they will find the phrase “provide fair and reasonable compensation to any person for losses suffered as a result of any extraordinary impact”. If they have difficulty with the long words we will help them.

[Brian Pallister, Canadian Alliance, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

Mr. Speaker, those are lovely platitudes but farmers are not interested in the minister's platitudes or his claims to care. They are interested in his support. They are interested in the results that they should be receiving from him and from the government.

Where are the sections in Bill C-5 that provide mandatory compensation for landowners who happen to have endangered species on their land? Why does the government's animal cruelty legislation not protect the tried and true animal husbandry practices of Canadian farmers from attack by animal rights' activists?

Business of the House

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Mr. Speaker, today and tomorrow we will continue with Bill C-55, dealing with public safety. If that is completed, we would turn to Bill C-47, dealing with excise.

Next week we will have the unusual pleasure of three days, Monday, Tuesday and Thursday, as allotted days for opposition debate. On Wednesday we will return to business unfinished this week, including Bill C-5, species at risk.

I would like to designate Tuesday evening of next week as the first evening for consideration, in committee of the whole, of estimates, pursuant to Standing Order 81.4(a). I would also advise that consultations are ongoing with regard to holding certain take note debates on Wednesday evening of next week.

[John Reynolds, Canadian Alliance, Leader of the Opposition]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the government House leader what the business will be for the remainder of this week and obviously next week? Could he possibly advise us when he expects Bill C-5 will be back before the House?

An Act to amend the Criminal Code (cruelty to animals and firearms) and the Firearms Act

[Charlie Penson, Canadian Alliance, Peace River, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I rise today to speak to Bill C-15B with deep regret. I and a lot of people in the country cannot understand where the government is going with these kinds of issues. It seems like it has some kind of vendetta against agriculture. I and the people who produce food cannot understand where this is coming from and why the government seems to be so much against people who produce food.

This is not the first time. Bill C-5 is still before the House and is on the same track. There is a lot of window dressing. The government pretends to be sincere about protecting endangered species. What actual protection is it offering?

[Carol Skelton, Canadian Alliance, Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK]

Mr. Speaker, I wish to speak to Bill C-15B or the war on agriculture as I call it.

The bill would create a war on agriculture in Canada. The government is creating another hardship for all agricultural producers who deal with livestock. Farmers and ranchers must be made aware of exactly what the government is doing and how the bill, if passed, would negatively affect their livelihood.

We heard today that bureaucrats in the federal agriculture department are questioning bureaucrats in the province of Saskatchewan as to whether there is a possibility of a drought in that province. They are asking if there is dryness on the prairies. This is the kind of vision that the government has of agriculture. Bill C-15B is just another nail in the coffin for agriculturalists across Canada. This is not fearmongering by our party. This is an attempt to show people what the bill would do to all agricultural and livestock industries.

The justice minister said the introduction of the bill would not change things, but I tend to disagree with that statement. Dairy farmers across Canada disagree with that statement. What about chicken farmers in Canada who give us free styrofoam coffee cups, napkins and everything? The bill would affect chicken farmers no matter what propaganda they are told.

The justice minister said that what was lawful before would remain lawful. I dare to differ with that statement. If the bill has no effect, then what is its purpose? The bill would not affect legitimate practices, but it would narrow the definition of what those legitimate practices are.

My husband and I raise elk, bison and deer, one of the most regulated industries in Canada. Our practice is so legislated that there is no way we could ever commit cruelty to any of our animals. Those animals are better looked after than the way some dogs and cats are treated by people in a lot of places. We baby those animals. I have bottled fed bison calves and an elk calf. That elk cow is now five years old, and still comes to the fence when I call her. When I ask Gracie to come give me a kiss, she runs to the fence, gives me a big kiss through the wire fence, and I pet her and scratch her. We look after our animals. Bill C-15B would have a huge effect on any animal based business in Canada.

Animal rights groups have said that to be proven effective this legislation would have to be challenged in court. Farm families I know cannot afford to take anyone to court because they are clutching to survive. Farm families I know do not where they will get money to put the next meal on the table. Both people of farm families I know are working off the farm all day, come home and farm at night. They cannot afford court challenges, but that is what lies ahead for our agriculture industry. Working Canadians cannot afford to fight battles against well funded activist groups.

My colleague's motion would see wilful and reckless actions as guidelines for prosecution. It would help to protect farmers, ranchers, researchers and others with legitimate animal based occupations from numerous prosecutions.

The Canadian elk industry is going through difficult times right now with the CWD outbreak in Canada. The only way that scientists can study the disease is by taking blood tests from live animals. If that were outlawed there is no way that we would ever find a control or find out how the disease is spread. We must keep scientists away from prosecution.

As in Bill C-5 the government is content to categorize all actions as criminal. There must be protection in place for those who use animals legitimately. My colleague from Lakeland said that the dairy farmers of Canada are the most conscientious of all farmers.

I appeal to the government to listen to their concerns. It should talk again with the dairy producers of Canada. They will tell the government what they are feeling. They feel this is a threat to their whole industry.

We must protect our livestock producers. The agricultural industry has been abandoned by the government. Legislation such as Bill C-15B would do additional damage to an already struggling industry. Moving animals from property offences to the criminal code leads us away from animal welfare into the land of animal rights. This is a scary proposition for many Canadians who use animals for legitimate purposes. The definition of animal in the legislation needs to be changed. The current definition is far too broad. It is too inclusive and would lead to problems for law abiding citizens.

A leisurely day of fishing could now be met with court challenges, for example, a fisherman picking on a fish. I would like to tell people in Ottawa or Edmonton that they may not go fishing on the weekend. I have seen numerous boats coming from Alberta to our northern lakes in Saskatchewan. If we were to stop them from fishing, our province would be in worse shape than it already is.

The government would like to assure Canadians that petty things like that would not happen. The legislation however would open the door for exactly this scenario. The government's blatant pandering to special interests groups is horrific.

A letter from the Animal Alliance of Canada is a perfect example. It states:

Bill C-15B, which makes changes to the animal cruelty section of the Criminal Code, recognizes for the first time that animals are not just “property”, but rather being in their own right...I can't overstate the importance of this change...It started in the last federal election. Because of a commitment by the (previous) Minister of Justice in the House of Commons to pass Bill C-15B (we) campaigned for her re-election. Under attack by hunters and gun owners and a cabal of extremist right wing groups, (she) was in a losing campaign. (We) stepped in and championed her election...(she) won by 700 votes.

Instead of championing for the stability of law abiding animal based industries and businesses the government caters to a special interest group. That is unbelievable.

My colleagues and I in no way support cruelty to animals. However we do support law abiding Canadians who are involved in animal based businesses and industries. We cannot support the bill as it stands. It seriously jeopardizes Canadians from engaging in legal, moral and ethical animal practices. The Secretary of State for Children and Youth spoke yesterday about the fur industry and how much good it did for Canadians. We must stop and look at this. The government must look at the broader picture and the repercussions the bill would have on industry, instead of its blatant pandering to lobby groups.

[Rick Casson, Canadian Alliance, Lethbridge, AB]

Mr. Speaker, if the parliamentary secretary wants to act now, I suggest we ring the bells, bring the members in and we can vote. I think one of the reasons we are not doing that is the government is not too sure it could win the vote right now.

Just for a minute, imagine being a primary producer who on getting up in the morning reads the newspaper or turns on the news to learn about a number of issues. There is Bill C-5, the species at risk act that does not offer compensation for landowners. That would be something a landowner would have to worry about. Then there is the Kyoto protocol which the government is considering implementing which would cost 10¢ a litre for fuel. That would add to the costs for the producer and would be something else he would have to worry about. Then he would hear about the European Union which is subsidizing its farmers. That is distorting production and driving the price of the producer's products down and he has that to worry about. Then there is--

Excise Act, 2001

[Leon Benoit, Canadian Alliance, Lakeland, AB]

Mr. Speaker, it seems the Bloc is the only party not supporting the legislation. It was carrying on a bit of a filibuster but now government members are getting involved in the filibuster. I think the reason has nothing to do with the bill and its content. The reason is that there are only two serious pieces of legislation before the House. First, there is Bill C-5 the species at risk bill. The government is so split over the bill that there is a huge problem in its caucus about it. It does not want to face the bill again. It put it off yesterday.

Second, Bill C-15B is the next bill scheduled to come before the House. It is both an extremely important piece of legislation and a bad piece of legislation. It has caused an urban rural split in the government caucus with which it does not want to deal.

The government is filibustering its own legislation because there is such a split in its caucus it does not want to deal with the two important pieces of legislation before the House.

I have not seen before in the House of Commons any government with such a thin soup agenda. It has so little of substance to talk about that it is filibustering its own legislation. Government members talk about the bill because they do not want to let things die and admit they have nothing to say or offer the country when it comes to legislation. This is a surprise and it is quite shocking.

We need a government on that side that has issues of substance to deal with on behalf of Canadians. It certainly is not coming from the Liberal government.

Species at Risk

[Bob Mills, Canadian Alliance, Red Deer, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the real answer is that the minister knows compensation is necessary but he lost the fight in cabinet. A letter from one cabinet minister to another said that removing compensation from Bill C-5 altogether would be the ideal case. That is the truth of the matter.

Instead of telling landowners to trust the government and playing a shell game, why does the minister not admit that the bill will not provide any compensation any time in the future?

Species At Risk Act

[Andy Burton, Canadian Alliance, Skeena, BC]

Mr. Speaker, by threatening to invoke closure on Bill C-5 this arrogant Liberal government continues to show its total lack of respect for the parliamentary process and democracy in Canada.

Members on both sides of this place continue to have serious concerns with Bill C-5. The lack of adequate means of compensation to farmers, landowners, and resource users such as mining and forestry companies, guide outfitters, hunters and fishermen leave the legislation seriously flawed and unacceptable. If the government truly wishes to protect endangered species and their habitat then a requirement for compensation at fair market value must be included in the legislation.

I urge the minister to amend Bill C-5 to make it more acceptable to those who would be affected. It is not too late.

Species at Risk Act

[Ethel Blondin-Andrew, Liberal, Secretary of State (Children and Youth)]

Mr. Speaker, I know that hon. members from all parts of the House have spoken to Bill C-5 in great detail, from the perspectives of property rights as well as the whole issue of endangered species. What I would like to do is bring it down to the most common denominator. I would like to speak about the people who are involved and have the most direct contact with the stewardship of these species. They know how important it is because they have acted as stewards for generations.

Last night in Montreal, the fur institute of North America had a huge exposition, a premier event at which gathered together were all the retailers, the designers and the people who do the frontline work in this industry, people who are involved in much of the value added regarding this industry. It is a huge economic issue. I want to speak to it not just from the perspective of stewardship but also from the perspective of the economy. I want to talk very briefly about how the proposed species at risk act would ensure that there is involvement of the people closest to the species and to the land. This involvement would stem from an overall co-operative approach.

The industry, which was once in jeopardy, is now flourishing because of the efforts of the people involved. For example, in the Northwest Territories, I come from multi-generations of people who have lived with endangered species, who have worked on the land and who have worked with these species in a great deal of detail as a work of passion and as a way of life. We in the Northwest Territories have worked hard. Our fur is labelled as genuine Mackenzie Valley fur. For example, we have the best lynx fur in the world. We have 800 to 1,000 trappers in the Northwest Territories with wild fur sales between $800,000 and $1 million annually. This has great economic implications. The good news along with this is that our fur prices are good and Northwest Territories fur brings in the highest prices. Some 60% of our wild fur export is marten, followed by muskrat. Our Fort Reliance wolves have sold for as much as $750 U.S., with wolverines going for approximately $450 U.S.

In the mid-1990s, there was a devastating impact when the European Union introduced regulation 3254/91 banning the import of pelts and products of 12 fur bearing species. It had a devastating impact on people who were self-sustaining and who had dignity. It had devastating economic, social and cultural impacts on many aboriginal communities. It was the same as the whole fishing industry and now the forestry industry. The impact was great. It led to the destruction of an integral component of the mixed economies of northern aboriginal communities. There was a loss of millions of dollars in annual fur income for those communities.

There are actual figures in relation to this. There are some 80,000 trappers in Canada. There are 2,000 people involved in fur farming, 2,500 in manufacturing and processing, 2,500 in retailing and 1,000 in related services. From 1992-97, Statistics Canada said the total fur exports doubled, from $143 million in 1992 to $287 million in 1997. Raw fur exports in the same timeframe went from $74.5 million to $149.8 million, dressed furs from $11.3 million to $25 million, and fur garments from $57.2 million to $112.6 million.

The reason I am rattling off these numbers is to show that when we bring this down to the most common denominator, people learn how to live with the industry they have with respect and dignity. These people do not need a lot of guidance from the outside on how to deal with and work with these endangered species. For generations there has been balance, there has been co-operation and there has been conservation unguided by any legislation.

[Inky Mark, Canadian Alliance, Dauphin—Swan River, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to take part in the debate on Bill C-5, the species at risk act, at report stage. The bill would have grave consequences for the riding of Dauphin--Swan River. The bill ostensibly aims to prevent wild species in Canada from becoming extinct or lost from the wilds, to secure their recovery and to prevent others from becoming extinct. Unfortunately these goals are unattainable with the bill. Report stage has seen the introduction of Liberal amendments to reverse dozens of key committee amendments made to the species at risk bill. Opposition parties, backbench Liberals, environmental groups, the provinces and even landowners are critical of the minister's move.

It took three attempts for the Liberal government to finally put through legislation to protect species at risk. Two previous attempts died on the order paper. This is the first significant piece of environmental legislation introduced by the Liberal government in three terms.

With these reversals, the bill effectively does not require the government to do anything to protect species at risk or to support landowners who are integral to the process of saving endangered species. If the bill would have been allowed to pass as it was after the intensive committee process, it would have been one of the weakest endangered species laws in the industrialized world.

The bill is devoid of the elements considered critical by both the Tories and the species at risk working group, composed of major environmental and industry groups: elements such as critical habitat protection, a specific scientific listing, a compensatory regime, landowner notification and stewardship.

In the Group No. 4 amendments the government has introduced a series of amendments to reverse the consensus of the committee with respect to having an inclusive consultation process that would include aboriginal peoples. I note Motions Nos. 6, 16, 17 and 20. The committee set up an aboriginal council composed of aboriginal representatives and ministers of the crown to advise and make recommendations to the Canadian Endangered Species Conservation Council. The government now wants to remove the ministers from participation on the council. The council was changed to a committee, its establishment was made entirely discretionary and its mandate severely limited. As the Inuit association of Canada wrote in a letter recently, this reversal effectively inhibits the voice of Inuit and aboriginal peoples in the conservation of wildlife in the country.

We support the amendments put forth by a Liberal MP that are a compromise in regard to these reversal motions of the government. The member's motions are a compromise that address the major concerns of aboriginal and Inuit organizations and preserve the essence of what was achieved in the original language unanimously agreed to by the standing committee.

The government has put forth Motion No. 76 to reverse committee consensus on timelines for the completion of parts of the act. The government is gutting the committee's consensus to have the act specify time limits for completion of action plans. Without time limits the development of crucial action plans could be delayed indefinitely. Bill C-65, which was the precursor to Bill C-5 and died on the order paper, did set out specific time limits for completion of all recovery plans, but the government apparently has no interest in maintaining that crucial component of the bill.

In Motion No. 114, the government also seeks to gut the specific reference in the bill to the minister having to consult with provinces and territories as well as aboriginal organizations with reference to proposed management plans. Wildlife preservation is a collaborative project that requires consultation with all stakeholders, especially the provinces and territories.

In Motion No. 130, the government is gutting a committee amendment to conduct a parliamentary review of the act every five years. During committee review at clause by clause, the government actually said that in certain cases it would take years to know if an action plan were successful. By the same rationale, it could take years to know if the act itself is working. We must have regular five year reviews of the act.

We support a science based approach to listing species at risk. Scientists, not politicians, should decide which species are at risk of extinction. This was also a consensus recommendation of the species at risk working group, which included environmental groups and industry groups such as the Canadian Pulp and Paper Association. Bill C-5 would leave the decision to list species at risk in the hands of cabinet, although it is a matter of scientific fact, not political choice. Social and economic implications must also be taken into account, but this should be done in the recovery plan stage, not with regard to listing. Government motions at report stage aim to further weaken the listing process. There is no timeline for cabinet to make a listing decision and respond to scientists' assessments.

The federal government must protect the species at risk in its own backyard, on federal lands or within federal jurisdiction. Bill C-5 would provide no guaranteed habitat protection on federal lands. In other words, protection would be discretionary on a case by case basis. It is wrong and ironic for the bill to have provisions allowing for federal interference on private and provincial lands without specifically containing mandatory protection of critical habitat on federal lands. Scientists have firmly established that habitat protection is central to protecting endangered species.

Bill C-5 does not provide enough clarity for addressing the concerns of affected landowners and land users. The minister's bill is devoid of a clear compensatory regime. Regulations pertaining to compensation should have been brought in and tabled simultaneously with Bill C-5.

I will conclude by saying that no one supports the bill. The Government of Canada has failed to do its homework. It has foolishly ignored the consensus of the species at risk working group and of major stakeholders. It is now further gutting an already weak bill not supported by environmental groups, industry and the provinces. A broad coalition of major environmental groups, together with the Mining Association of Canada and the Forest Products Association of Canada, agrees that at the very least a scientific listing process and habitat protection in federal jurisdiction should be in the species at risk act. Let me conclude by saying that the bill may do the opposite to the intent of the legislation and that Bill C-5 itself would be a danger to those species it is trying to protect.

[Stockwell Day, Canadian Alliance, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to first address a basic premise relating to this legislation, and that is a genuine concern for the proper preservation of the environment and its species and a genuine concern for a proper preservation of property rights. These concerns are not mutually exclusive. Not only should they go hand in hand, they must go hand in hand. Without proper respect for property rights, we will see a degradation of the environment.

It is a fact that a vigorous defence of property rights is essential to the health of any local, national or global ecosystem. However it is just as obvious that a vigorous defence of property rights is essential to the health of local, national and global economies.

The history of the last century is very clear on this point, painfully clear as a matter of fact. Jurisdictions which had little or no respect for the rights of private property were the jurisdictions and in fact the countries that suffered the greatest degradation to their environments and to the species that inhabited those environments. The two are absolutely and clearly linked. The federal government's cavalier approach to property rights, to the notion of private property, its total lack of understanding of basic economic and environmental issues and how the two are linked will put at greater risk the very species that we are all concerned about.

Government members who are really concerned about this bill and about the species would want to take the time to visit the constituency I represent or the constituencies represented by my colleagues. I invite them to come out to the Okanagan--Coquihalla and visit. Whether they talk to orchardists in the Okanagan area, or farmers in the Keremeos and Hope areas, or ranchers around Merritt or miners or foresters, they will see a common thread woven throughout not just the conversation but in fact the practices of those groups of people. That common thread is a genuine concern for the health and vitality of the environment of which their property is made up and the species which inhabit those environments.

History proves that it is those private property interests which will best serve to protect the environment, its health and the species that go with it. It is their land. They understand that properly caring for the land and its inhabitants, animal or human, is the secret of seeing the land itself to yield year after year, cycle after cycle and to continue to return the produce or products that humans need to exist on this planet.

However this reality, this link between a proper respect of property rights and preservation of the environment continually seems to escape the minister and the federal Liberal government. This paternalistic, centralized, all knowing approach toward either environmental or economic issues continues to prove disastrous.

I focus on the area of a proper appreciation of property rights because it is the core of the issue. If the bill moves ahead without the reasoned amendments of the Canadian Alliance, in effect what we will have is an undermining effect on the farmers, the ranchers, the orchardists, the foresters and the miners not just in my constituency but across the country. It will undermine their usual strong motivation to be good stewards of the land because it will undermine stewardship itself.

I look at what the minister is proposing, for instance, in the area of expropriation. If dealt with at all, it will be left to regulation. The very fact that compensation will not be included as mandatory upon expropriation, goes beyond words. How can that notion of disregard for the rights of private property even be entertained? That is what we will see if the bill is left uncorrected by the amendments proposed by the Canadian Alliance.

There can be no secret agreements entered into by the minister. He has indicated that there could be agreements, but they must not be entered into in secret.

Every year representatives of the Real Estate Association of Canada attend to this House. They meet with MPs and they talk about and press for the constitutionality of property rights and how those should be enshrined because they are so important.

Every year the government members of parliament and the ministers involved nod their heads, giving an appearance of assent to this most basic of freedoms and recognition of values. Then the hardworking representatives of the Real Estate Association go back to their jobs, yet nothing is done to preserve the constitutionality or enshrine the constitutionality of property rights. As a matter of fact they are not only left alone, those very rights are also eroded with approaches like we see in Bill C-5.

We have to address these very basic issues. There has to be a change in the bill where the minister recognizes that there will be consultation and that it will not be left to regulation. This must be discussed here in the House. The issue of compensation upon expropriation cannot be left at a whim; it must be stated as mandatory.

Further, the minister talks about delegation of responsibilities but the bill only contemplates delegating those responsibilities to other so-called competent federal ministers. There is a total disregard for provincial jurisdiction as reflected in the constitution.

We have to address these items. The Canadian Alliance is not opposing these things just for the sake of being in opposition. We are opposing the eroding of some very basic rights which are fundamental to the preservation of our economy and our environment. We are also offering some suggestions as to how these terrible wrongs can be righted. We will stick with those points and see this through.