Bill C-50 (Historical)

An Act to amend the statute law in respect of benefits for veterans and the children of deceased veterans

Patent Act

[The Speaker]

I have the honour to inform the House that when the House went up to the Senate chamber, Her Excellency the Governor General was pleased to give, in Her Majesty's name, the royal assent to the following bills:

Bill C-45, an act to amend the Criminal Code (criminal liability of organizations)--Chapter No. 21.

Bill C-25, an act to modernize employment and labour relations in the public service and to amend the Financial Administration Act and the Canadian Centre for Management Development Act and to make consequential amendments to other acts--Chapter 22.

Bill C-6, an act to establish the Canadian Centre for the Independent Resolution of First Nations Specific Claims to provide for the filing, negotiation and resolution of specific claims and to make related amendments to other acts--Chapter 23.

Bill C-459, an act to establish Holocaust Memorial Day--Chapter 24.

Bill C-55, an act for granting to Her Majesty certain sums of money for the public service of Canada for the financial year ending March 31, 2004--Chapter 25.

Bill C-37, an act to amend the Canadian Forces Superannuation Act and to make consequential amendments to other acts--Chapter 26.

Bill C-50, an act to amend the statute law in respect of benefits for veterans and the children of deceased veterans--Chapter 27.

Bill C-48, an act to amend the Income Tax Act (natural resources)--Chapter 28

Bill S-21, an act to amalgamate the Canadian Association of Insurance and Financial Advisors and The Canadian Association of Financial Planners under the name The Financial Advisors Association of Canada.

Message from the Senate

[The Speaker]

I have the honour to inform the House that messages have been received from the Senate informing this House that the Senate has passed the following bills: Bill C-37, an act to amend the Canadian Forces Superannuation Act and to make consequential amendments to other acts and Bill C-50, an act to amend the statute law in respect of benefits for veterans and the children of deceased veterans.

Children of Deceased Veterans Education Assistance Act

[Paul Szabo, Liberal, Mississauga South, ON]

Mr. Speaker, the reason it has not been done is that there is a bill and the committee did not address the issue when they addressed the bill, either at committee stage or at report stage. There were no report stage amendments, unfortunately. Had we known that the operative area of the bill that grants or extends the benefit is a regulation and in fact not an element of Bill C-50, with a little bit of guidance we probably should have been able to get the thing through.

However, we still have this opportunity. I think the important thing is that we come together and achieve what we have to, whatever way it is. All hon. members can deal with how it unravelled in their own way.

Mr. Speaker, I would again seek the unanimous consent of the House to make the motion to which I referred earlier in my speech.

[Paul Szabo, Liberal, Mississauga South, ON]

Mr. Speaker, Bill C-50 is an act to amend the statute law in respect of benefits for veterans and the children of deceased veterans.

The Minister of Veterans Affairs announced the measures included in Bill C-50 on May 12 and they include actions that would extend the health programs now received by veterans with a pension disability of over 77% to those with a pension disability between 48% and 77%.

It would also provide the veterans independence program and health care benefits to overseas service veterans at home when they are waiting for a priority access bed in a long term health care centre.

It would provide long term health care benefits to allied veterans with 10 year's post-war residence in Canada and extend from one year to a lifetime the period over which VIP benefits, which cover costs of housekeeping and grounds maintenance, will be given to widows after the death of their spouse or partner who was a veteran and receiving such benefits.

There also are amendments to the Children of Deceased Veterans Education Assistance Act to establish the education assistance program of the Department of Veterans Affairs in order to provide assistance for post-secondary education of children of members of Canadian Forces and veterans who were killed in military duty or who were in receipt of a disability pension at the time of death.

There is also an amendment to the Pension Act to update the scale of compensation for veterans who were prisoners of war. The War Veterans Allowance Act would be amended to clarify the definition of a member of the Canadian Forces during World Wars I and II.

Finally, the bill would makes a minor amendment to the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Superannuation Act.

Bill C-50, in its present form, is an omnibus type bill. It touches a number of other bills. It is not a bill that could be carefully read through and understood as to what exactly is included or its intent. It has to be looked at in concert with the legislation or the current acts that are being amended by Bill C-50.

Last Friday we debated the bill in the House and there was unanimous consent with regard to the actual provisions of Bill C-50 and a strong position that Bill C-50 should pass expeditiously and get to the Senate so we can deal with these most important changes being proposed.

Having said that, there is another issue and the previous speaker talked about it very well. He talked about the terrible inequity that would occur with regard to the veterans' widows who are not presently covered under the current act. The provisions of the act do not state who is entitled to these benefits. They are in fact in the regulations to the bill. As the House knows, the regulations are promulgated by order in council and the when the committee deals with legislation it is not dealing with the regulations but with the act.

The committee did not, although there was a way in which it could have, have an opportunity to address the extension of widows' benefits. To a Speaker on Friday, this place again gave unanimous consent to extend the benefits to the widows who are not covered under the current regulations.

When the Minister of Veterans Affairs spoke in this place I wrote down a couple of his comments. He said that we were in a dilemma. He wondered whether we should delay proceeding with this bill with a package of initiatives knowing that the twilight years of our veterans were upon us while we continue to search for sources of funding to provide for the additional funding necessary for these benefits, or whether we should proceed with the bill right now and lose that opportunity.

The debate then turned very quickly to funding. Many hon. members mentioned that it was important that we find the funding. The debate then turned to how much we were talking about. There was a little bit of variance in the numbers but we did know that it was minimally $200 million over about five years and as much as $400 million over the longer period.

I was advised directly by the Minister of Veterans Affairs that to make provision for the total cost of extending the benefits to these additional 23,000 veterans would be much smaller. It would be in the range of about $150 million and maybe as much as $200 million. We are not exactly sure because they are still working on the numbers.

However it means that it has brought us a lot closer. On Friday, one minute before we moved to private members' business, the Chair asked whether or not the House was prepared to call the question. I said no and I wanted to acknowledge that it was I who said no, but it was for a reason.

I had been made aware just minutes before that one of the reasons the government was having difficulty, as the minister alluded to in his commentary, was that there was a problem of having to record the aggregate cost or projected cost of extending the benefits to an additional say 23,000 widowers over their projected lifetime or the lifetime of the program and to have to record that in the year in which the decision to extend those benefits was made. It basically meant there was a concern, I do not know whether it was at cabinet or whether it was in the Department of Veterans Affairs, but there was this concern about whether we could afford to approve something that we would have to record somewhere between $150 million and $400 million in that year.

I think there is a greater confidence level now that the cost of extending these benefits is much closer to $150 million than it is to $400 million. I understand that is the opinion of the Auditor General's office.

However when we looked at something like the millennium scholarship fund, where $2.5 billion was actually being taken out of the government's resources and deposited in a third party bank account to set up an endowment for these future scholarships, that had to be recorded immediately because the government had no recourse to draw that money back.

This is not the case, however, with the decision, if it were taken, to extend these benefits. Therefore there is some question as to whether or not the accounting for those benefits should be made lump sum in advance or could be accounted for on an annual basis based on the costs actually incurred year by year; in fact smooth over $150 million over the next five or ten years, which members have said consistently is not an inordinate amount for the government to find in the public accounts right now in our estimates.

I wanted to inform the House that in the sixth report of the Standing Committee on National Defence and Veterans Affairs that was tabled in the House there was a recommendation that was adopted unanimously by the committee, a committee representing all parties in the House.

The motion it adopted reads as follows:

That the committee supports the decision of Veterans Affairs Canada to extend from one year to a lifetime the Veterans Independence Program (VIP) benefits provided to surviving spouses of Veterans who were in receipt of such benefits at the time of their death. However, the members of the committee unanimously agree that the Government should take all possible means to provide lifetime VIP benefits to all qualified surviving spouses, of Veterans receiving such benefits at the time of their death, not just to those now eligible for such benefits following the amendments made in June 2003 to the Veterans Health Care Regulations.

That motion was unanimously carried and reported to the House by the Standing Committee on National Defence and Veterans Affairs.

The House has unanimously spoken about the support we have for extending these benefits: that we do not want two classes of widows and widowers. There is only one veteran and there are widows and widowers, and this place has the will to make this happen. There is no question that the provisions in Bill C-50 have the support of the House and it should pass quickly.

To make the changes necessary to extend the widows' benefits cannot happen in this bill, but it can happen by order in council, because the current regulations provide for that benefit for the widows and widowers who are presently receiving this. I said no on Friday because I wanted to find out whether there was some possible way to make this happen so that the unanimous will of this place, the unanimous will of the Standing Committee on National Defence and Veterans Affairs, could be reflected. There must be a way.

I have talked with the Minister of National Defence. I have talked with the Minister of Finance. I have talked with the Minister of National Revenue. I have talked with a number of other cabinet ministers. I have talked to a number of hon. members in the House. I am sure that the sense is there that these benefits should be extended, that there should be only one class of widows and widowers.

There is, therefore, an indication that we should do something. I believe that there is something that we could do now, that is, we should consider a motion of the House. If there is an accounting problem for $150 million, whether we account for it in one year or over five or ten years, it is an immaterial amount in terms of the public accounts. As for the Auditor General, notwithstanding the prescribed method to account for this, it is not going to lead to any substantive problems with regard to the public accounts. This place could unanimously adopt a motion to concur that notwithstanding what the prescribed accounting treatment would be, the House in fact concurs that the government should account for these additional costs on an annual basis as incurred. In accounting terms, it is referred to as accounting for it on a cash basis rather than an accrual basis.

If we were to adopt such a motion, then the government would have a very clear signal that it is the will not only of the standing committee but of this place, of all parties and all members, to include all widows, to extend it to all so that we do not have two classes of widows.

I cannot say it more clearly. I know that members have spoken passionately about this. I know that there is consent in this place to make it happen. It matters now whether or not it is their political will to make it happen. I believe that a motion such as I have discussed here would give the government a clear message from this House that we want to see these benefits extended.

As a consequence, I would like to seek the unanimous consent of the House to present a motion, which would state, if I might read it into the record so that members would know:

That the House concur that the government extend veteran independence program benefits to all surviving spouses of veterans receiving such benefits at the time of their death, and that the cost be accounted for on a cash basis.

That to me would say to the government that there should be all efforts made to deal with it, whether it be by an accounting adjustment or by other methods as recommended by the Standing Committee on National Defence and Veterans Affairs. There is this will, it is a strong will, and it is unanimous. It is the right thing to do.

Having advised the House of the nature of the motion, I would seek the unanimous consent of the House to move the motion.

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Mr. Speaker, this is the last reading of Bill C-50. I had informed you at second reading that we were in favour of the bill. In committee, we considered the bill properly and we listened to people. We also accelerated the process, because we feared that the session would end prematurely. It seems this will be the case or this is being actively prepared. Ministers have decided to rush some bills through.

The Bloc Quebecois has agreed to deal with this one quickly, even though the bill has many problems. Thus, we will agree with the bill because it does contain many worthwhile provisions. The first thing we must recognize in this regard is that it greatly recognizes veterans and their widows.

We often give all the credit to veterans. However, I do not want to diminish their credit, because they deserve a lot. These are people, like my father, who decided to fight for our freedom, for individuals rights and for democracy. They deserve a lot of credit.

However, the women who stayed behind, in Quebec and in Canada, also deserve a lot of credit. We must always remember that these women were not inactive while their husbands went off to war across the Atlantic. They were the ones who had to keep the war economy going. They made guns, artillery shells and ammunitions so that the men could use them in the theatre of operations. Not only do our veterans deserve a lot of credit, but so do their widows.

There are some positive measures in this bill. First, there is a new definition of the term “veteran”. A recent case surprised a lot of people. A veteran did not have veteran status. He had gone to fight with our forces in a theatre of operations without having ever enlisted.

Therefore, the bill before us today suggests a new definition so that this kind of situation does not happen again. From now on, one will have to have enlisted and have completed one's military service to be considered a veteran. It was not necessarily the case previously.

We can see that the change in the definition is aimed at plugging a loophole that was opened up in court by a veteran, with the help of the justice system. The Federal Court ruled that he had fought with the others and, therefore, had to be considered a veteran. Today, we would not want these situations to happen again. This is why people will have to enlist and complete their military service.

The other aspect of this bill that we find very interesting deals with benefits for children of deceased veterans. This program had been suspended for some time. The amounts were not astronomical at the time. It was $125 a month. The minister decided to reinstate the program so that first generation children of veterans could have the privilege of receiving benefits to help them pay for their studies. This is important. The fully indexed amount has been increased from $125 to $300 a month. With indexation, the benefits will not have to be adjusted by way of regulation or legislation. It will be done automatically.

Another positive measure is the recognition of prisoners of war. The government is increasing compensation for prisoners of war. As we all know, prisoner camps, and in particular Japanese camps since a distinction is made in the bill, were not five-star hotels like the Hilton. Conditions were not that great.

At the time, soldiers were encouraged to escape from concentration camps, not an easy task. Some of them made it. Of course, they are not covered by this bill. But as I said at second reading, even if a prisoner could have seen in a crystal ball that a few more days in a camp would get him a pension, I do not think it would have mattered much. As I said, there was nothing posh about those concentration camps.

Everyone was urged to try to escape as soon as possible. Officers encouraged soldiers to escape because troops were needed to fight the enemy.

So, these benefits are increased. Compensation for prisoners of war held in Japanese camps is further increased because of the horrible conditions in which they were detained.

The Bloc Quebecois supports these improvements. It is a form of recognition, as I said earlier, for those who put not only their lives but also their health on the line, since several of them came back home with very serious injuries.

I am a member of the Canadian Legion in d'Iberville. Many people were hurt, and not only physically. They sustained injuries that were unknown at the time, psychological injuries. Nowadays, we know a bit more about post-traumatic stress syndrome. Everyone has heard about it.

In those days, people who went to war experienced absolutely dreadful situations. Nowadays, the same can be said of people who served, for example, in Bosnia, or those who served in Eritrea and Ethiopia and whom I visited personally. There was a demarcation line between the two camps. However, you could still see horrendous things. You could see bodies sprawled in the mine fields that nobody would retrieve.

I can understand that, even though soldiers are said to be tough and willing to accomplish their mission, they still feel pain when confronted with such a disaster and such a display of inhumanity. It goes against our values.

Here in our democratic regimes, we tend to settle our disputes through discussion. The House of Commons and the Quebec National Assembly are cases in point. Yet in those countries, they are often quick to resort to arms. And the victims are not only the soldiers who bear arms, but women and children, who often have no involvement in the conflict. They are its first victims though.

These people come back from those theatres of operations often physically diminished and psychologically damaged. Even the World War II veterans I meet still find it difficult to talk about the atrocities they witnessed on the battlefields.

The major flaw of the bill before us is what it does not do. I will explain. There are many forgotten ones in the bill. For financial reasons, 23,000 widows have completely been forgotten or left out in the cold by the bill.

It has taken us aback, since the minister had announced on May 12 that he would make legislative and regulatory changes. It so happens that among the legislative changes he wanted to make some had to do with the veterans independence program, which also applies to their widows. We were quite surprised when the minister came out with new background documents in September announcing his bill. Bills always come with briefing notes and background information announcing the forthcoming introduction of a bill at first reading.

At that time, it became obvious that the program would no longer be dealt through legislation. It meant that changes would not be made through amendments to the legislation. In the meantime, it was decided to proceed through regulatory changes.

This caught our attention. I then got out the regulation dated June 18, which says that widows now benefiting from the privilege will be able to benefit from it as long as they stay in their house. The program is for widows to give them help with housekeeping and grounds maintenance.

We understand the legislator's intention to help widows keep their house for quality of life reasons, of course, but also probably for economic reasons. Indeed, when they no longer have a house, they soon end up in long term care.

The problem is that the former program said that, when a veteran died, his widow would benefit from the program for 12 months. After that, she would no longer be eligible for benefits.

So, the minister said, “Those who now benefit from the program, those who have lost their spouse in the last 12 months, will be able to continue to benefit from it”. He forgot all the others. This means that 10,000 widows will continue to benefit from it, and 23,000 will not.

We may also question many things. Among others, my colleague from the Bloc, who deals with status of women issues, was mentioning to me that it would have been interesting to know whether the government has made a gender specific analysis.

I would like to explain this. The Beijing convention, which is a convention for women's rights, provides for certain conventions and treaties. There is one dealing specifically with the obligation of governments, when legislating, to see whether there is a negative impact on women. If the government decides to make legislation for veterans, we should see if the bill would have a negative impact on veterans' widows. In this regard, I am not sure the government has done its homework.

In fact, we do not intend to let off. We think that it is inadmissible that some persons should be told they are eligible and that others should be told they are not. Those who are not eligible have as much merit as the others. They too saw their spouse go off to war. My own mother saw her husband go off to war. She is still alive. She is living in a long term care facility and could not benefit from this allowance. However, if she still lived in her home, she would be told, “We are going to pay for your neighbour, because she lost her husband less than a year ago, but in your case, since you lost yours five or six years ago, you will get nothing”.

Understandably, some of these widows are coming to see members of Parliament. Some came to me and said, “This is unacceptable. Why am I not eligible? My husband went off to war. Other widows are eligible, why not me?” That is when we started looking into the matter and found out that 23,000 widows were not eligible.

Why are they not eligible? The minister is trying to explain that this money came from a reallocation within the department. Some $69 million was reallocated. A senior official of his department told us in a briefing, “Had we made all of them eligible, it would have cost $200 million, whereas all that could be reallocated was $69 million”. What happened is that they made a regulatory change that no one knew about. On June 18, cabinet met and decided that all those who benefited from the program at that time would continue to benefit from it as long as they lived in their homes, until they entered a long term care facility.

This means that those who no longer benefited from the program are no longer eligible. One can understand the position of a government that says it cannot afford to pay. However, there are other means available to the minister, and it would seem that he did not take advantage of these means. For instance, supplementary estimates were recently approved; that is more money ministers ask for in their respective budgets.

Why has the minister not said that he would like to have more money for his department and point out that he cannot say to 10,000 women that they are eligible for benefits under a program and to 23,000 others that they are not eligible? But it seems that he did not do that. The Prime Minister himself is said to have made a commitment to settle this issue. However, time is running out because, if the House adjourns on November 7, I am not sure that justice will be done to these women. This is one of the problems that we have right now. We should settle this issue tomorrow night, since we will be voting on a motion in which we are asking for a permanent solution to the problem, which would be for the Prime Minister to leave office and let someone else take his place. Then we will be able to continue our work and deal with the kind of issue that we have before us today, one that creates an injustice for many veterans' widows.

When we know that the government had a $13 billion surplus last year, we cannot help but wonder where that money is going. It is used to pay down the debt. Is the government dealing with the everyday problems of those people who really need help? No, it is not dealing with problems faced by the unemployed; on the contrary, it has reduced access to EI benefits. It is not dealing with problems faced by the elderly; in my riding, we are still looking for 800 to 1,000 elderly people because they are entitled to the guaranteed income supplement but have not been told.

The government could—and I agree that it would take $100 million in additional funds—ease the plight of these 23,000 women who have been left to fend for themselves. The Bloc Quebecois does not really understand why ordinary people are given such a low priority. I am sick of seeing people in Quebec City and in Ottawa always doing things for the millionaire club. They are not left to fend for themselves.

The future prime minister, the hon. member for LaSalle—Émard, has probably received government contracts totalling $15 million. But he is not someone who collects welfare. Why is it that it is always the better-off classes who benefit, and people who really need it, including those widows with annual incomes of $10,000 per year, are forgotten? They are left in the dark, while someone promises to try to get their problems solved. That is not enough for us.

The Liberal Party promises that it will now make an effort to compensate the 23,000 widows it had overlooked. In the meanwhile, some of them do not have the money and truly need it. Unfortunately, they will have to do without.

In short, we are extremely disappointed at the way things have turned out for these women. They are being deprived of their quality of life. I know that in my riding we found 200 people who were entitled to the guaranteed income supplement. When they were told they were entitled to it, and then they received it, they got $2,000 more each year, per person.

Just imagine what these senior citizens can do with $2,000. They are able to go to restaurants a bit more often, give little presents to their grandchildren, things they could not do before. It enables them to enjoy a better quality of life; perhaps they can live in a nicer apartment or perhaps buy more clothes—things they could not do before.

And it would be the same for these widows. If we could give them this amount, they would derive great benefit from it, and that is without counting the economic spinoffs in every riding.

We have just had a press conference about the goose that lays the golden eggs for the hon. member for LaSalle—Émard. I refer to the employment insurance fund. It deprives the riding of Saint-Jean of $34 million a year.

As for the senior citizens, if we found those 800 people in the riding of Saint-Jean, we would have recurring economic spinoffs of $2.5 million per year in our riding. That gets to be quite a large amount of money. There are between 100 and 200 veterans' widows who cannot qualify at this time, for the reasons I have just outlined.

People are being denied quality of life. And all the ridings in Canada are being denied economic benefits. Again, where will these women go? They will go to long term care facilities, which are under provincial jurisdiction and the provinces will have to foot the bill. In terms of transfers, again, the federal government pays no more than 14¢ for every dollar spent on health services.

It is a downward spiral and the provinces are increasingly choked by the services they have to provide. Ottawa is passing the buck. It clings to a fiscal imbalance vis-à-vis the provinces and rakes in surpluses. In the area of health alone, the Minister of Finance announced last week a $7 billion surplus. The provinces said, “Great, that is extraordinary. You told us that if you had more than $5 billion you could give us $2 billion of it”. The minister changed his mind a few days later and said he had miscalculated and that he may have spoken too soon. In the end it was a $3 billion surplus.

In other words, the minister could tell the provinces he is not going to give them their $2 billion. The federal government will continue to contribute 14¢ for every dollar, while the provinces contribute 86¢ and have to fend for themselves.

There is a great deal of injustice in most of these cases. In the one before us, there is even more. Many women do not understand how the federal government could abandon them. Many women say, “My husband went overseas. He benefited from the program. Now that he has passed away, I should be entitled to the program for more than 12 months like others are, but I am being told no”.

As I said, we are going to maintain our support for the bill because it contains positive things. Nonetheless, as we proved in asking the question today, we will not forget the fact that 23,000 widows have been left out in the cold and we will defend them. They are being treated unfairly and we will do everything we can to try to correct this injustice.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Musquodoboit Valley—Eastern Shore, NS]

Mr. Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to speak on behalf of the federal New Democratic Party in this very worthwhile debate. Any time is a good time to speak about veterans and their families.

I want to congratulate the minister as well the parliamentary secretary and the government for moving ahead with Bill C-50. We in the NDP support many aspects of the bill unequivocally.

As has been heard during previous debate in the House, there is one very serious flaw with the legislation. Is it money or is it the regulations in the legislation? It is probably a combination of both.

I do not think the government can be so cruel that it would intentionally leave out some widows or widowers. At the same time, it cannot hide behind budgetary remarks or legislative remarks. If the government has the will, with the full support I would assume of many of its own members as well as those in the four opposition parties and the support of many veterans organizations and their families, then there should be a way of moving the issue forward so all of them are protected under the same umbrella.

If the Prime Minister of Canada can, in record speed, allocate $100 million for two jets that even the defence department has said are not necessary, then surely he or the future prime minister can easily make it happen. I do not care what they have to do, but they have to make it happen so all widow and widowers are under the same umbrella. There is no reason in the world why it cannot be done.

We on this side of the House are encouraging the government to proceed with this legislation. It has our full support. Opposition's basic role is to oppose that which is worthy of opposition. However, we will support legislation brought forward by the government that is proactive as is Bill C-50. Many parts of this legislation are worthy of support and worthy of rapid approval to get this through the House.

The reality is all of us in opposition and many members on the government side have noticed a serious flaw in Bill C-50.

I know Mr. Cliff Chadderton quite well and he is not easily prone to asking ministers to resign. Out of pure frustration and out of what I would assume is anger, he has felt the need to do so. I would not want to see the minister resign because he is a decent human being and his heart and his efforts are in the right place. If he resigned, we would have to wait quite a while for the next veterans affairs minister. Then we would have to go through this debate all over again. We cannot ask the minister to do something and then at the same time ask him to resign. That is defeating our own argument. The minister should stay right where he is and a general election will clear up any problems in the future.

The present minister can do this if there is a will within Treasury Board or the finance department or if the Prime Minister says that is should happen.

In my riding of Sackville--Musquodoboit Valley--Eastern Shore, approximately one-third of my constituents are either in the military, or have retired from the military or are associated with the military in a civilian capacity. These people are constantly calling me on various issues with regard to the military.

There is no question that all of us would like to have more money to do all the things we would like to do. I know the government has to work within fiscal frameworks, but there are certain times when the obvious slaps us on the head.

The obvious situation in this regard is those of the widowers. Many people who are not even in the military have called my office and asked what is going on. They have asked why the Prime Minister has said that he can correct this deficiency and we are still debating it today in the House.

Symbolically, November 11 is coming down the pike. It is what I would call almost a holy day in Canada when we take the time to seriously reflect upon those who have gone before us in terms of defence of freedom and democracy. It was not just the soldiers, airmen, merchant mariners and sailors who fought for our freedoms and victories. What about the people who stayed home, kept the home fires burning and kept the families going?

Those men and women of the military, past, present and those yet to join, pay the ultimate price. They are willing to put their lives on the line to protect us. It does not just affect them, but their families as well. Many of us in Nova Scotia and the rest of Canada sometimes wear what we call the invisible ribbon. That is the invisible fourth arm of the military, the families.

The parliamentary secretary knows very well the great job our military family resource centres do across the country, looking after many of the situations that we are discussing right now, many situations that we hope Bill 50 will correct. However there is one glaring omission. The military family resource centres know very well what this will mean if it is not corrected.

I give credit to the previous admirals, generals and people who made the military family resource centres a very prominent aspect of our military life. I give credit to the previous defence minister who accepted many recommendations in the report of the Standing Committee on Defence and Veterans Affairs on the quality of life. My previous colleague, Mr. Gordon Earle of Halifax West, worked on it with others. The government accepted many initiatives from that. Thus we are, albeit quite slowly in my opinion, improving the quality of life for veterans and their families as well as current military personnel.

We cannot forget the ones who were here before us. When individuals in the military lay their lives on the line and those lives are unfortunately taken, then, as members of Parliament on all sides, we have to ensure that we respect and accept the ultimate responsibility to those individuals and their families. That responsibility is to ensure that when members of the military go overseas or do their duties in the country, if they die because of their actions or their duty, their families will not have to fight with the government to get proper benefits.

Individuals in the military have to worry about their own training and defensive capabilities in order to promote peace and security around the world. The last thing they need is the lingering thought in the back of their minds is if their families will be okay if they are not. That should not even be debatable.

This is something we can correct. I know the parliamentary secretary, himself being a decent individual, would want this corrected. There is nothing stopping him and his colleagues from going to the Prime Minister when he gets back from his trip and telling him they need this corrected now.

The parliamentary secretary and colleagues could explain it to the Prime Minister in their next Wednesday caucus meeting if they have to, but they should get it done. All we are asking is that it get done. Then we will stand up and sing the praises of the government's in this regard. There are many other issues on which we would not. However it is extremely imperative that this be done.

In closing, I thank all the opposition members and those on the government side who have brought this issue forward. I also thank Mr. Cliff Chadderton and all the organizations that have brought this issue forward in defence of veterans and their families.

[Rick Borotsik, Progressive Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

Mr. Speaker, that is probably one of the easiest softball questions I have ever had. It sounds like a Liberal asking a question to a minister during question period.

The answer to the question is obvious. Yes, of course, let us get the assurances from the Minister of Veterans Affairs. Let us get the assurances from the finance minister. Let us ensure that the regulations will be amended, rewritten properly and that they will incorporate these forgotten few. That is all there is to it. It is a no-brainer. I guess that is why Canadians maybe a little cynical about politics right now.

The member for Mississauga South said that it was an oversight, that the legislation was meant to come forward to take care of these issues. Maybe and maybe not. Maybe it is a simple thing like money that the parliamentary secretary has put on the table at the present time. Maybe it was not meant to be funded. Maybe with the pressure that is being applied currently by the veterans themselves, veterans organizations, the opposition, and for that matter, very conscientious members of the backbench of the government has forced the hand of the Minister of Veterans Affairs in a positive way.

Yes, let us ensure we have those assurances. I have said at the onset that we will not be voting against Bill C-50. There is too much good in the bill to stop it. That is not the intention. The intention is to fix what is wrong in the bill and if that is the way we can do it, then by all means the member for Mississauga South will have our support in ensuring that takes place.

[Paul Szabo, Liberal, Mississauga South, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I do not know of anybody in this place that is not supportive of Bill C-50.

The problematic issue comes down to a matter which happens to be buried in the regulations. I do not know how it was allowed to stay there when, in fact, members of the House were seeking to bring the spirit and the intent of the act as it existed, and incorporate it into the act and not leave that information buried in regulations. It is really unfortunate that it is there.

I do not believe that even the Senate has the authority to make the amendments because it has to do with money matters. I would have to inform myself a little bit more about the purview or the scope of the Senate.

It would appear that the best that we can do now, and I wonder if the member would agree, and not risk losing the rest of the bill, is to collectively make the sincere representation to the minister and cabinet to amend the regulation to provide benefits to all widows.

[Rick Borotsik, Progressive Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I rise on behalf of the Progressive Conservative Party and my caucus colleague the member for Saint John who sits on the national defence and veterans affairs committee. I will represent her but certainly not in the capacity that she could have spoken to the bill.

I do not think there is anyone in the House who would disagree that she passionately supports and defends the rights of veterans as well as the military. She has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that if there is anyone in the House who has the feel for what is happening in the veterans portfolio and certainly with the widows of those veterans, she is certainly the one who could put forward a very passionate plea to the government.

I am a poor stand-in but I will attempt to put our position forward. I hope to convince the government that it has an obligation, a right and a responsibility to change Bill C-50, if not in the legislation, then in the regulations as was explained by the minister this morning. And if it is not changed in the regulations and the legislation, then perhaps it should be fixed when the bill comes back from the Senate. There is an opportunity to sit down with the Senate and negotiate the necessary changes that could fix the injustice that has been articulated by previous speakers.

There is always good and there is always bad in any piece of legislation. However, the omission in this legislation is not only good or bad, it is repugnant. It is targeting a portion of our society that we should be assisting in their years of retirement. We should be providing those individuals with the VIP pension benefits. We should be showing them some respect for the sacrifices they have made and the losses they have experienced on our behalf.

There is good and there is bad. There is no question that Bill C-50 should go forward. We know full well that we would not want to stand in opposition to the bill because there is an opportunity to correct some wrongs in it. However, when the minister stood today and recognized that there is this sad omission, I did not feel confident that the minister would be able to correct it.

I do not have to explain the situation as it has been done before. However, for the purposes of those people who may be joining us just now, the problem is there is a large group of individuals who are excluded simply because of an arbitrary date that has been chosen in this legislation. I said a large group of individuals because I heard that the number is 23,000 but today the minister today said that he does not know. He does not know what the number is. He has to get confirmation of the number before he can actually mention what the number is. That is fair ball. I am okay with that.

Let us assume that the number is 23,000 plus or minus a few. The minister is not prepared to make that commitment to those 23,000 individuals because of an arbitrary date.

There is a mirror image here by the way. The mirror image is the hepatitis C compensation package that was put forward by the government. Maybe there is a model that the Liberals follow. Maybe there is a manual that is put in front of ministers. Maybe they are told that they have to follow this model which makes some people second class citizens and treats others not as second class citizens.

That model is that there is an arbitrary date. That date is May 12, 2003. Before that date those 23,000 people would have obtained these benefits but one day after that date those people do not obtain those benefits. It is not fair. It is not equitable. It is not right.

Quite frankly, we have to make sure that it is equitable, that it is made proper and that it is made right. The way to do that, as has been suggested in a number of fashions, is to change the regulations. Now I hear that maybe it is not just the regulations. Maybe it is not just the legislation. Maybe it is not just a change from the Senate coming forward. Maybe it is a matter of money.

Twenty-three thousand people are being excluded from this. I am told that the dollar amounts may well be anywhere from $23 million to $40 million. It is a lot of money, make no mistake about that, but it is not a substantial amount of money that the people excluded should not take advantage of it.

We have heard that there is ample opportunity for the government to find $43 million or $23 million. As a matter of fact, as I understand it, if we take the lower number, the Governor General spends more than that on an annual budget. I believe that the Governor General, because of her position in our society, should certainly have the ability to have funding. But I also agree that the widows of veterans or the widowers should have the ability to achieve a certain standard of living and a certain level of independence. To not allow that $23 million or $43 million to flow to those individuals in my estimation would be tragedy and a travesty for the government.

Maybe would could look at some of the areas to save that $23 million to $43 million. I think it is there. We are told there is a budget surplus.

However, it may not be money. If it is not money, then the minister must tell us what it is because I did not get an answer to my question.

I have a lot respect for the Minister of Veterans Affairs. He is a fellow Manitoban. I believe he is here for the right reasons and he does what he does for the right reasons. The problem, however, is that perhaps he does not have the influence to put proper legislation forward right now to correct a tragedy and a wrong.

Maybe the minister should get cooperation from his backbenches because I know there are many backbenchers in the government right now who support making this equitable and right. Maybe he should get that support to go forward with the regulations and come to this House today, tomorrow or next week and say he has taken the recommendation and has found the necessary money and, in fact, those 23,000 people will be looked after the way they should be.

There are others who agree with me. There are people who have sent letters to the minister and suggested he resign. Frankly, I do not subscribe to that. I believe that the minister should do what is right. He should fight for the veterans and their widows and widowers as one of his last duties in this House, as his last duty perhaps as a member of Parliament. We do not know. We may going into another election.

He should do what he believes in his heart is right. I believe, in his heart, he is concerned about those people, but unfortunately, he has not delivered. Not to deliver is not doing a job properly. Let us give him the opportunity to make that change and do it properly.

We are approaching Remembrance Day in the not too distant future. As a matter of fact, I have a poppy which is not a prop. I was told poppies can be worn only at a certain time. It is not true that we should not consider what the poppy really represents and what we as Canadians should consider when we consider our veterans and our military.

I can speak from experience. I have a Canadian Forces base in my riding. I can put faces to the people that are responsible for what we wish them to do in the military. We send them to Afghanistan and other areas throughout the globe on our behalf, and they do it willingly. Members of our military are the most professional individuals of any military anywhere in the world and they carry our flag on their arms with pride.

The reason why I mention the poppy and the military is because sometimes, other than November 11, we have a tendency to forget exactly what it is that they provide Canadians. Unfortunately, that is what is being reflected in this legislation. We are forgetting a segment of that military dependency and it is not in the best interest of Canadians.

I suggest that the legislation go forward because it is a good small step in the right direction. However, within the next month or so--if it will be that long that we are in the House and because it involves a small number of people--the minister should find out what that number is and the financial implication. He should then return to the House and tell us that either the change has been made in the regulations or that it will be fixed in the Senate when it comes forward.

It would make me very happy. It would make the Royal Canadian Legion and the widows of veterans very happy. It would make Canadians in general extremely happy to have this terrible injustice fixed. When that happens, we would all congratulate the government and certainly the minister for a job well done. All the calls for his resignation would be moot at that point, as well they should.

On behalf of my colleague who sits on the committee, who fights as hard as she possibly can for the rights of military personnel and veterans, I would suggest that the sitting backbenchers of the current government let their voices be heard and that they cooperate with the minister.

By the way, this should not be so difficult. The Prime Minister is already on record saying that he will fix this problem. Well, he is leaving soon, we think, but I do not think anybody knows just when. I do not even think the backbenchers in the Liberal Party know when, but he has said he will leave and he has said that he will fix this problem.

With his support and the support of backbenchers, and certainly with the Minister of Veterans Affairs having his heart in the right place, this should not even be an issue. This should simply be a slam dunk. The government should be able to come to the House next week and say that the problem is fixed and it is really happy to have fixed the problem.

I congratulate the government for going forward on that basis and I certainly wait with anticipation to hear that it has fixed this terrible injustice to the VIP benefits. I wish government members the best of luck in their deliberations in the not too distant future.

[Mario Laframboise, Bloc, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to speak to Bill C-50. This is a very important debate for the future of the support programs, including that for widows and widowers. Because there are more and more women in the Canadian Forces, there will be an increasing number of veterans' widowers who will be entitled to certain benefits.

The advantage of this bill was that it would make certain improvements to the existing program. That was the goal. Obviously, we all would have liked to see the improvements to the existing program made in the right order and with respect for all the people, all the women and men who become the widows and widowers of veterans. But this was not what happened.

For instance, there is a very specific program that provides support to veterans to give them help with housekeeping and grounds maintenance. It has been a much appreciated program, so much so that many requests were made by widows and widowers, because it was a time-limited program. The veterans who qualified for this program could have help with household tasks and grounds maintenance, and it would continue for one year after the death of the veteran.

Therefore, the majority of surviving spouses can receive this allowance under the veteran's independence program. The program goal is clear from the title. Its purpose was to provide veterans suffering from health problems due to war wounds, for example, with assistance so they could remain independent and continue to live at home and take care of their property. Those unable to do so were entitled to assistance under the veteran's independence program.

This program provided an allowance for housework. As a result, this meant someone could be hired to do the housework or yard work. This program took care of that. Under the old rules, once a veteran died, the surviving spouse could continue to receive this allowance for one year.

Obviously, if veterans were no longer able to do this work while still alive, it was quite logical to cut off this allowance one year after their death. The need was there, it was urgent while the veteran was alive and then, after one year, the need suddenly disappears.

There were long discussions, great debates and the program was amended. Everyone in the House wanted this program to be provided on a permanent basis. Therefore, when a veteran receiving this allowance died, the surviving spouse would be entitled to it for life. That was the objective.

Once again, when the regulatory changes were made, for purely budgetary reasons, one entire portion of the program for surviving spouses of veterans was shelved. A cut-off date was introduced. Surviving spouses of veterans who have died within a certain period of time could benefit from this program for life, and those no longer receiving this allowance would not be entitled to it.

All the complicated explanations from the minister or the Liberal members make no sense whatsoever.

A person either is or is not a veteran's widow. This bill and the regulations create two categories of widows.

Some will be entitled to the program for life, while others will not be entitled to it at all. Here, I am talking about those who are no longer entitled to it. Those who were subject to the previous legislation and received benefits for a year and complained, the widows who received nothing or lost this assistance after a year. They are the ones who put pressure on the government, explaining that the reason their spouse received benefits from this program was that they were unable to take care of their home.

The program's objective is to help veterans live independently. It is only normal that in our society, our veterans, those who fought for us and defended us, at least have their independence. That was the objective.

Several widows and widowers felt that the program was completely unacceptable. They wondered why they were getting benefits for only one year. The government, in its wisdom, has decided to study and analyze the program and say yes to all those who complained about it ending one year after the veteran's death.

The government says that, effective May 12, 2003, widows of veterans who were entitled to the program will receive benefits for life. However, people complained for 10 or 20 years, and said that the program was worthwhile and important. They used the program because they were unable to be independent at home. These are the people who managed to move this issue forward. Yet, because the government was short of funds, it decided to deny benefits to widows whose husbands had passed away before May 12, 2003. In fact it is May 12, 2002, because those who had been receiving benefits from the program since May 12, 2003 would continue to do so for life.

According to the figures available to us, benefits are being eliminated for 23,000 surviving spouses, mostly widows. Often these women are the ones who fought to obtain the program. They are the ones who led the battle to let the government know it made no sense to provide assistance for a year and then do away with the program. Loss of their husbands has meant the loss of their independence. They are often compelled to sell their homes because they cannot carry out housework and yard work. Yet the specific purpose of this program was to provide veterans and their spouses with peace of mind. That was the reality.

We agree with the new measure whereby, after the death of a veteran, his or her surviving spouse could go on living as before. We support the measure, but what we do not support is the regulations setting a cutoff date. It will, according to our estimate, make 23,000 widows ineligible for the program.

The minister has criticized members for stating in the House that certain people would no longer be on the list. He is the one who drew up this new list. It encompasses the surviving spouses of veterans effective May 12, 2003 or 2002, depending on the technical calculations.

He is the one who drew up the list, and some people will no longer have any entitlement. What is even more serious, I repeat, is that these are the people who fought for this program to be maintained, the people who have been trying for decades to get the government to understand the objective of the VIP program. Its purpose is precisely to allow veterans' families to remain in their homes in peace.

This is a serious matter. We will be told that care must be taken because of the money involved. I will spare hon. members a repeat of all the money the government has wasted. There has been plenty of media coverage, and plenty of reference in this House to all the scandals and overspending in all departments, not to mention the constant surplus, which they underestimate in order not to have any money left for the provinces. We are told that the surplus will not be more than $3 billion, yet in the end the figure is said to be $7 billion.

It is not true that there is no money. It is a matter of putting money in the right place. That is the reality. What the opposition wabts is simple. There is a good veterans independence program in place, and wives, widows and a number of widowers have been requesting for decades that it be maintained indefinitely so that veterans' widows and widowers can continue to enjoy the same quality of life they enjoyed when their spouse was with them.

I repeat that not all veterans were eligible for this program, only those who were unable to look after their housekeeping or groundkeeping for any number of reasons, be it health reasons, war injuries or what not.

Again, this is an indication that the Liberal government is not spending wisely. We could give a long list of examples of departmental expenditures. Departments could be told to start putting money in the right place. Compensation should be provided to these 23,000 widows and widowers. We in the Bloc Quebecois sincerely believe that this would be spending the taxpayers' money wisely.

This is the simple rationale we are trying to get across to the government. The bill contains many other measures to improve the situation of veterans, former POWs and others. In that respect, we agree. We are also pleased that there was broad consultation on this bill.

The only problem is that no one has ever held consultations saying that a cutoff date would be introduced for the veteran's independence program and that there would be two categories of surviving spouses: those who lost their spouse prior to May 12, 2003, and those who lost their spouse after that date.

It is wrong to say that it was discussed. The minister is saying that broad consultations were held. However, all the stakeholders challenge this. We cannot have two categories of surviving spouses. But that is what the government is doing today.

The minister can insist all he wants that he is trying to find solutions, but there are none. The only solution is for all the surviving spouses of veterans to be entitled to the veteran's independence program. That is the only solution. No other solution is possible. The minister wants discussions, but about what? Does he want to move back the date from May 12, 2003, to May 12, 2000, or 1990?

There are no other solutions. The only solution is to put the money on the table to ensure that all the surviving spouses of veterans are entitled to this assistance program. That is the only possible answer.

The minister would have us believe that he is not hesitating, but he is. There is no other alternative. Thinking that an opposition member would rise in this place to set a new cutoff date or to exclude widows and widowers is wrong.

The solution is for the minister—that is what a responsible minister would do—to move an amendment to his own bill. He would have to admit that he made a glaring error in setting a cutoff date that creates two categories of widows and widowers of veterans, and to eliminate it. There is no way that this date should be maintained and that two categories of widows and widowers of veterans should be created.

That is all we are expecting from the Liberal government. At the end of the day, that is all we are expecting from all the Liberal members who will rise in this House to speak to Bill C-50. Do not tell us that efforts are being made to find a solution. We want to hear that the bill is fair to all widows and widowers of veterans.

That is the only outcome the opposition, and the Bloc Quebecois in particular, expects. Why? Because all widows and widowers of veterans are entitled to the same quality of life they enjoyed when their spouse was alive. It is as simple as that. It is a matter of quality of life and humanity, no more no less.

The problem is that the government side is not listening; it does not want to listen. Once again, the minister is trying to hide and to have us believe that he is not hesitating. He is boasting about being able to clearly communicate such a simple idea. The questions opposition members put to him all boiled down to this: Will you make money available so that all widows and widowers of veterans have access to the same program? That is what they were asking him.

The minister tried his best not to answer the question. The bottom line, as we know, is a budget issue. We are told that there is no money for these 23,000 widows and widowers who lost their wife or husband before May 12, 2003. That is the reality.

With the federal government surpluses, cost overruns, everything that happens in the public service, and the money the Liberal government has wasted, we do not believe there is no money for this. We believe it is simply a matter of the minister not wanting to spend that money. He habe better not try to make us believe that veterans and groups have sent him letters of thanks.

I would say that indeed, important provisions have been included in this bill. However, there is no reason for having two categories of spouses of deceased veterans.

We must be careful. We have to be able to talk about what is good in this bill, but also agree on what does not work in this bill.

The Liberal government must move calmly and gently. Moreover, all the Liberal members in this House should sit down with the Minister for Veterans Affairs and tell him that the money will have to be found and ask him to pressure the Minister of Finance to do so.

Before this bill is passed, he will be able to tell us that it will be amended and that we will guarantee all the spouses of deceased veterans that the veterans independence program will be maintained so that they can continue to enjoy the quality of life they had before their spouse's death.

That is all the Bloc Quebecois is asking for.

[Cheryl Gallant, Canadian Alliance, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Mr. Speaker, there are many good things in Bill C-50 and we want it to pass as quickly as possible.

The member himself said that this is a matter of changing regulations and this can be done by cabinet at any time. Why has that not been done? What are we waiting for?

All veterans and widows are concerned that if the bill goes forward, the government will forget about it after November 11. These people will be forgotten again for another year. That is why we want to ensure that the issue is addressed now, not after November 7, but now.

[Paul Szabo, Liberal, Mississauga South, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I am here today primarily because of Bill C-50. Like many members of Parliament, I have been seized with the issue of widows' pensions.

As members know, the bill was tabled at first reading on September 18 and it would amend a number of acts. Therefore, to find some continuity to it, we have to look at the existing acts. In the current act the date at which widows become eligible for pensions is in the regulations. The bill therefore would not amend the regulations; it would amend the acts.

I want to assure members, and I would ask the member if she would agree, that the effective date of widows' pensions is a matter which is incorporated in the regulations which can be changed by order in council at any time. Therefore, it is still possible for cabinet to make the announcement of an amendment to the regulations without any further amendments to the current bill. If the member is not sure of that, she may want to at least consider asking that formally of the minister in writing.

Would she agree that if it is by regulation, this can still happen by November 11?

[Cheryl Gallant, Canadian Alliance, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I am honoured to speak to Bill C-50 on behalf of the official opposition and more particularly, on behalf of the official opposition critic for veterans affairs, the member for Souris—Moose Mountain.

After what the minister said, I am overwhelmed on behalf of the widows across Canada who will not be receiving the same life benefits as other widows. There is an overwhelming sense of betrayal. The widows who will be without benefits have the same grief that the widows of Corporal Beerenfenger and Sargeant Short feel today. There is no difference, but because of a decision, which can be changed, those women will be left out in the cold.

There was opposition to Bill C-50, even though by all accounts it appeared that the bill was going to further the cause of all veterans and widows.

Cliff Chadderton, chairman of the National Council of Veterans Associations, had concerns and wrote to the media. He talked about being scheduled for laser surgery on one eye and being unavailable for comment. Nevertheless, he stated that he was surprised to see comments in the National Post by the Minister of Veterans Affairs.

Mr. Chadderton had written to the minister on at least three occasions about the matter and never received a reply and now he knows why. He said that he would be bringing up the matter at the annual meeting of the NCVA but there was no indication that the government would be doing anything. At the last meeting they had specifically asked that the top brackets of widows be covered even though the funds were scarce. He said that other veterans organizations made comments to the effect that they would like to see all types of widows covered.

As far as Mr. Chadderton and his researchers are concerned, they stand by the comments in the letter to the minister of October 23, 2003 and the release of that date. He feels that it is up to the minister to give him specific replies. He certainly was not satisfied to hear the minister say that he was disappointed that Mr. Chadderton should ask for his resignation, bearing in mind that the minister has given no indication that anything will be done despite a promise from the Prime Minister.

We were hoping to be able to speak of a victory today. Our critic for veterans affairs would have been so pleased to share the happiness with the thousands of military widows who have been patiently waiting for the changes that are part of this legislation. Year after year the member for Souris—Moose Mountain has pursued the goal of equality. That is what it is about, equality. It is about equality for military widows.

This year my caucus colleague set November 11 as the special target date for achieving this goal. The Speaker knows there is a great likelihood that the House will rise on November 7, prior to November 11. This causes great concern for all of us in the House that any changes will be made to ensure that the benefits go to all of the widows.

I have to wonder whether the command from the prime minister in waiting that no more funds be allocated is a stall until he rises to the throne. Could it be that his new caucus is trying to create the illusion that he will be the great saviour of these widows, or is it just simply that they are waiting for more widows to pass away and never be able to receive the benefits that are rightly theirs?

We on this side of the House feel that these widows and dependants of deceased veterans have waited long enough for equality of treatment.

For these individuals, Remembrance Day will take on a new meaning. They will not have a grateful nation recognizing their sacrifice and that of their families in the service of their country.

The official opposition will continue to press for the changes outlined in respect of benefits for veterans and the children of deceased veterans.

Actions to be taken or that have been taken since the minister's May 12 announcement include the extension of health programs for veterans on a disability pension. This will provide veteran independence program recipients the health care benefits to overseas service veterans at home when they are waiting for a priority access bed in a long term care facility. However it provides nothing for the widows whose husbands passed away prior to May 12.

The legislation would provide long term care and health care benefits to allied veterans with 10 years post-war residence in Canada but it provides nothing for the widows whose spouses died prior to May of this year.

The bill would extend, from one year to a lifetime, the period of VIP benefits that cover the costs of housekeeping and ground maintenance, and would be given to widows after the death of their spouses or partners who were veterans and receiving such benefits. However it provides nothing for the other widows whose spouses died prior to May.

It is with hesitation, particularly because of who the bill was intended to help, but it is with a sense of urgency that I would like to be acting on these matters. The aging population of our veterans, their widows and dependants means that they will not benefit from the changes being announced in Bill C-50. Remembrance Day this year will be a yearly reminder that not only have they lost a loved one but their government was not prepared to act in a timely fashion. They will remember that the government turned its back on them this November 11.

I know our critic, the member for Souris—Moose Mountain, received over 1,000 letters from widows, including letters from constituents in my riding, who wanted to be able to thank the minister for going forward with those benefits. Why has the federal government not had a change of heart in all these years?

After years of lobbying for the changes outlined in Bill C-50, what gave the final push on this? I have no hesitation whatsoever saying that it was the hard work of the official opposition critic for Veterans Affairs, who brought this issue to the forefront in the first place.

I have never been one to believe in coincidences. Canadians cannot help but wonder about the timing. It just happens that passage of the bill would coincide with the deaths of Sergeant Short and Corporal Beerenfenger in an Iltis jeep in Afghanistan. If some good could have come from this tragic loss of life, it would have been to honour veterans' widows and make the announcement today that all widows will receive the lifetime benefits. Corporal Beerenfenger and Sergeant Short would have been heroes a hundred times over, more than they already are.

If the minister had announced that all widows would receive these benefits, perhaps I would have tempered my cynicism and that of many Canadians who have come to expect a government that can never be counted on to do the right thing unless someone else, either the media or the official opposition, pushes it in the right direction.

When the government does act it is by some half measure, as we have heard today, that is more designed to silence its critics than to actually solve a problem. This brings me to the issue of the thousands of widows who are excluded from the VIP benefits.

As recently as yesterday, the chairman of the National Council of Veterans Associations called for the resignation of the Minister of Veterans Affairs for not responding to their specific concern about the shortcomings in the legislation. Today I too must call for the minister's resignation. This is betrayal of the worst kind.

It is our desire that the issues raised by the National Council of Veterans Associations in Canada, in a letter to the minister dated October 23, 2003, will be dealt with in a timely fashion and that in the future there will be no confusion on behalf of the 23,000, more or less, widows whose spouses died prior to the May date. I hope these points will be clarified in writing, not this wishy-washy doublespeak that we are getting here in the House today.

As the member for Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, it is my pleasure to represent the women and men in the Canadian Forces who are based at CFB Petawawa.

Many individuals who experience the lifestyle in the upper Ottawa valley, choose to retire here. As a consequence, a significant number of retired military personnel now call Renfrew county home. Many military widows and their dependants in my riding follow this issue of equality of treatment with individual interest. Today I dearly would have liked to have shared in the joy that should have been forthcoming. Sons, daughters, brothers and sisters all write and phone in on behalf of the widows.

I know the opposition is united across the benches on this side of the House and will continue to force the issue on behalf of the widows until we all share in the joy and stand up and congratulate whoever the minister is at that time.

[Rey D. Pagtakhan, Liberal, Winnipeg North—St. Paul, MB]

moved that the bill be read the third time and passed.

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise once again on behalf of the Government of Canada to speak to Bill C-50.

The fact that we are debating final reading of the bill so soon after second reading and deliberations by the Standing Committee on National Defence and Veterans Affairs speaks volumes about the concern all members have for Canada's veterans.

I thank the standing committee for its thoughtful study and unanimous approval of the bill. Indeed, I thank all members for sharing my passion and determination to get the urgently needed measures contained in the bill passed in the House as quickly as possible.

Since the bill is reported back to the House without amendments, I need not debate further the details of its three basic components, except that I would like to give some added, but brief, overview comments on them.

The provision that re-establishes the education assistance program for the dependent children of Canadian Forces members killed in the line of duty, or whose injuries would later lead to death, cannot be more timely.

It is clear that as Canada continues her peacekeeping and peacemaking role in the world, where there remain countries that cry out for peace, it is only right and just that we offer peace of mind to the servicemen and servicewomen who go into harm's way to achieve peace for others. Their children's access to post-secondary education is assured through the assistance of this program. The deaths in Afghanistan, earlier this month and before, of some of our finest in uniform as a direct consequence of duty to country bring to our consciousness the importance of re-establishing this program.

The other components of the urgent needs package, which I had announced earlier, and the other components of the bill will provide further assistance: to wartime veterans with a pension disability of 48% or greater, without regard to whether their needs are related to the pension disability or not; to overseas veterans while they are on a wait list for a priority access bed; to allied veterans with 10 years post-war residence in Canada; and to former prisoners of war with shorter or longer periods of incarceration than now provided for in the regulations and in law. Bill C-50 also clarifies in law the definition of “member of the forces” for the purposes of the War Veterans Allowance Act.

Indeed, the provisions in this bill will help us address some of the key urgent needs of veterans and their families.

The one other urgent need, which has caught the most public attention, relates to the veterans independence program, more popularly known as VIP. I am pleased, as are all members of the House, that we have been able to already put in place soon after my announcement last May of the package of initiatives, a change in the regulations which now allows eligible spouses of deceased veterans a lifetime extension of certain VIP services, that is, those presently in receipt of the one year extension of benefits following the death of their veteran spouse, as was then the provision in the regulations prior to the change, would henceforth continue to receive the benefit for lifetime as needed, as well as for those whose spouses die after the change in regulation.

Let me reiterate a couple of points about this specific matter for greater clarity and precision. First, the net effect of this particular change to the regulations is not to remove anyone, and I underscore “not”, from the VIP rolls. Unwittingly but regrettably, it has come to be portrayed in some quarters that some have been cut off. That simply is not true at all.

Let us be very clear. What we have done with this particular change is allow more than 10,000 eligible survivors, at a cost of some $65 million over five years, entry onto the VIP roll of veterans on the program, in addition to those still on the one year extension when the change in regulation occurred.

It must also be made very clear that there remains an unanswered challenge, namely, making the new regulation applicable to all surviving spouses whose one year extension of VIP benefits had already ended before the commencement of the new regulation.

This has been acknowledged by all. As I have said on a number of occasions, both in the House and outside, this unanswered challenge remains in the heart of this minister, and I am sure in the hearts of all, and in the hearts of veterans and their families.

That is why this was a matter that this minister and veterans groups alike struggled with before we decided that I would announce, as I subsequently did announce last May, the package of initiatives that also addresses the other urgent needs of veterans.

That is why I raised this very issue with the leadership of the Royal Canadian Legion, the RCL, the largest organization for veterans in the country, and with the leadership of the Army, Navy and Air Force Veterans in Canada, Anavets, the oldest association of them all, as well as with the National Council of Veteran Associations, NCVA, during our meeting last May.

We were all in a dilemma. Should we wait until we had all the financial resources we needed or should we proceed with what we had? We all understood--RCL, Anavets and NCVA--that we did not have the resources to include the surviving spouses, those for whom the VIP extension had earlier been ended.

On balance, we unanimously agreed, without any dissent, that the best course of action was to target existing resources immediately to help surviving spouses who were currently in receipt of VIP or who would be at some future date and pledge to continue to work for the others. Thus, we have been able to immediately provide, following my announcement, not only VIP benefits to some 10,000 eligible surviving spouses, but as well, we have been able to help advance in the House the other forthcoming benefits contained in the bill before us.

That is why I also respectfully and gratefully acknowledge in the House the special motion moved at the Standing Committee on National Defence and Veterans Affairs, by the member for Nipissing, to the effect that, and I quote:

...the Government should take all possible means to provide lifetime VIP benefits to all qualified surviving spouses, of Veterans receiving such benefits at the time of their death, not just to those now eligible for such benefits following the amendments made in June 2003 to the Veterans Health Care Regulations.

That is why I share and take most seriously the more recently expressed sentiments of Jennifer Kish from London, Ontario, and Patricia White of Charlottetown, among many, many others who have to date reflected the same sentiments on this issue, not to mention the universal sentiments of those in the House. This is a non-partisan issue.

Mr. Speaker, we enter public service from whatever career we had before in the hopes of serving the broader public good. As a former pediatrician and lung specialist in practice, I had the privilege of caring for our youngest and, by definition, some of our neediest citizens, and now, as Minister of Veterans Affairs, I say that our very senior veterans are also among the neediest from a health care perspective.

It is in part in this context that I stand before the House to ask that we once more summon our resolve and give swift passage to Bill C-50. In addition, there is another context in which to frame our resolve and that is from the perspective of the veterans themselves, from their own lips. I have come to know from veterans I personally have met one to one or in groups that health needs are one of their pressing priorities.

At this juncture, I once more convey my many thanks to the leadership of the Royal Canadian Legion, the association of Army, Navy and Air Force Veterans in Canada, and the National Council of Veteran Associations, for sharing with me and my departmental officials the insights of their fellow veterans.

As hon. members know, my department has a long-standing collaborative relationship with Canada's veterans groups. Since I came on board nearly two years ago, I have been determined to make sure that this tradition of consultation and cooperation continues. From my very first meeting with the leadership of the veterans associations to today, it has been very clear what their priorities are.

I would like to conclude with the comments that have come from the largest and the oldest veterans organizations. Said Dominion President Allan Parks of the Royal Canadian Legion, the largest group:

In catering to the needs of prisoners of war, surviving spouses, and the long term care of veterans, Canada remains at the forefront of support to its veterans.

Said Dominion President Robert Cassels of the Army, Navy and Air Force Veterans in Canada, the oldest group:

I am very pleased with the Minister of Veterans Affairs' announcement that he will be introducing proposed program changes to meet today's most urgent needs of Canada's war veterans...We were fully consulted at every step of the process.

I indulge in these commentaries to indicate the excellent working partnership we have had with them as we pursue our common goal, namely, to advance the well-being of veterans and their families, and as well, to convey to all three major veterans organizations our appreciation for their continuing input and insights, that we may have a better understanding of the needs of our veterans, and particularly to the RCL and Anavets for publicly conveying their unfailing support in our common search for a solution to our pressing challenges.

Lest we forget, let us also convey our gratitude to the staff of Veterans Affairs Canada, whose dedication and service continue to make a positive difference in the lives of our veterans and their families.

Colleagues, let us get Bill C-50 into the law books as quickly as possible so that the intended recipients, our heroes of war and peace, can benefit from its provisions as soon as possible.

Business of the House

[Don Boudria, Liberal, Minister of State and Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Mr. Speaker, insofar as the last part of the question, in fact such a motion would not change a law in any case. Let me first of all start by saying that this afternoon we will continue with debate on the opposition day non-confidence motion.

Tomorrow we shall consider Bill C-50, respecting veterans benefits, followed by the Senate amendments to Bill C-6, concerning first nations. Then, if we have time, we will consider Bill S-13, an act to amend the Statistics Act.

On Monday, we will consider bills left over from this week, as well as Bill C-32, the Criminal Code amendments, Bill C-13, the Assisted Human Reproduction Act, and Bill C-45, the corporate governance bill.

Tuesday shall be the last allotted day in this budget cycle.

On Wednesday and on subsequent days, we shall return to any unfinished business, adding to the list any bills that may be reported from committee. We will also start debate on Bill C-19, the First Nations Fiscal and Statistical Management Act, and Bill C-43, an act to amend the Fisheries Act.

This is the part of the session when it would be normal for bills that have been in committee for some time to be reported back to the House. I am hopeful that committees, such as the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights, the Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration and the Standing Committee on Transport, will soon complete their legislative work, so that the House may dispose of them in an orderly fashion.

Canadian Forces Superannuation Act

[Bill Blaikie, NDP, Winnipeg—Transcona, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to speak today, on behalf of the NDP, to Bill C-37, an act to amend the Canadian Forces Superannuation Act and to make consequential amendments to other acts.

I am also pleased to join with members of all parties by way of indicating our support for the bill. I hope the bill will proceed expeditiously and that the benefits, which will accrue to members of the armed forces as a result of the bill, will come into effect as soon as possible.

Many members have already gone into detail, including the minister, the critic for the official opposition and others, as to what all is contained in the bill, and I see no need to repeat that.

It is important I think to highlight at least one of the changes, and that has to do with providing pension benefits to full time reservists. This is something that has been advocated for a long time and I am glad to see that the minister has been able to make this happen, as, I might add, he has been able to make a number of things happen since he has become the minister. I do not agree with the minister on everything, particularly when it comes to national missile defence--and I might have more to say about that later--but we have had some legislation come forward during the time of his tenure, shall we say, in which things that were long overdue are finally happening, and Bill C-50 is one of those things.

There are still other things that could be done to make life easier for those who are concerned about our reserve forces. Recruitment is still a problem and retention is a problem once they are recruited. I am sure the minister is aware of those problems.

I see the minister is in the House. Maybe afterward he could clear up something that came to my attention, because he may have an opportunity in questions and comments to say something. One of the rumours running through the reserves is that the program that provides some educational benefit to people joining the reserve, whereby they get help with their university education, may be cut. People who are in command positions within the reserve are concerned about this. They see this as an important recruiting tool to be able to offer young Canadians who may be considering joining the reserve.

When I asked that question this morning, when members of the Standing Committee on National Defence and Veterans Affairs were at DND, I was told there was no thought being given to cutting that particular program. It would be good if the minister could confirm that and that it be communicated to people in the reserve. There is no sense having rumours floating around that are unfounded, but, if they are well-founded, we would like to know that as well.

The minister said that he wanted to make the forces, both regular and reserve, the employer of choice. Certainly bringing pension benefits up to par with that which is offered in the rest of the public service and the private sector would be part of that. The bill would go some way toward creating the context that the minister desires.

However I certainly would agree with the official opposition critic who talked about the quality of life for our Canadian Forces members while at the same time tolerating this increase in rent. If we kind of take with one hand what we have given with the other, people are not stupid. They do not come away feeling good about it. If the idea is to make people in the Canadian Forces feel more appreciated than they have over the last several years, and to respond to the quality of life report and to deal with some of the things that led in the past to Canadian Forces families having to access food banks, et cetera, then I would hope that the minister would reconsider this rent increase as other things have been reconsidered.

For instance, at one point it looked like a fait accompli that supply and other functions would be contracted out to a British company. I cannot remember the technical name. I know people in the forces called it kibbles and bits, or something like that. That decision was rescinded and the work has not been contracted out.

There is room for flexibility here. If the minister could see the wisdom of not proceeding with this, that would be great.

While we are on contracting out, although it is not quite relevant, I would hope that the Minister of Industry might see the wisdom of rescinding the contract to Lockheed Martin for the Canadian census. It gives one pause that if we can contract out the census to a big American multinational, it is a wonder we are not contracting out elements of our military to an American corporation. We hope we will never see that day.

Those are some of the things I wanted to put on the record. Other members have tried to turn this into a larger debate about defence spending. Of course that is appropriate to the degree that the Chair allows it. I certainly would not want to be the one who would try and do that given my longstanding respect for relevance.

Others have mentioned it and were not chastised. I might also want to put on the record that we too abhor the delay in replacing the Sea King helicopters. I was here when that contract was cancelled. The EH-101s were first proposed by the Conservative government. We had concerns about that contract.

I would hope that anyone who was here at the same time as I was would say that if we had any inkling of the fact that cancelling the EH-101 contract would mean that 10 years later we still would not be anywhere near obtaining a replacement for the Sea King helicopter, we would have said to buy the things. Whatever it was that was objectionable about them, in my opinion it has become far more objectionable to leave our Canadian Forces in the twilight zone that they have been in with respect to the Sea King helicopters for the past 10 years.

This is a dangerous situation. It is a situation that has nothing to do with helicopters and has everything to do with Liberal politics in terms of the original cancellation, but more blameworthy is the fact that the Liberals have taken 10 years and they still have not figured out which one of their friends will benefit from the contract. Until the Liberals can figure that out, it is the people in the Canadian Forces who have to fly this obsolete equipment. That is shameful.

At the heart of this is a very shameful reality. The reality is that defence contracts in this country can be held hostage to ongoing political manoeuvring of the sort that we have seen relating to the Sea King helicopters. It is not only with respect to helicopters that this happens, but this is one of the more glaring examples of how politics can hold up something which should have been proceeded with expeditiously.

If the Liberals want to cancel a contract, that is fine. However, they have to make up their minds about what the new helicopter will be like and get them on stream and into the hands of the people who need them.

The member from the Bloc Québécois said he could not resist the opportunity to speak highly and offer praise to the Canadian armed forces who were helping out during the ice storm in Quebec. I certainly welcome his remarks in that regard. Likewise, I want to take the opportunity to be praiseworthy of the members of the Canadian armed forces who were in Manitoba at the time of the flood in 1997. They were camped out in tents in the parking lot at the East End Community Club in Transcona. That is where they were bivouacked. I had an opportunity to visit with many of them at that time. I certainly want to add my commendation for the work they did at that time and for the ongoing work they do with respect to catastrophes, whether they be floods, fires, ice storms or whatever the case may be.

The minister did say in his remarks that the national missile defence system was on stream. What does on stream mean? We have made our opposition to Canadian participation in the American proposed and American led national missile defence system very clear on a number of occasions in the House. It is part and parcel of what the government has always said it was against, which is the weaponization of space. We are disappointed that the government seems to be proceeding on this without really making it clear what it is up to.

I would hope that members of the Alliance who seem to agree with national missile defence would agree that there is a procedural inadequacy here. If the government is going to participate in national missile defence, it should come before the House and make that absolutely clear. Perhaps it could bring forward a motion and have the House vote on it. It should do something which at least would nod in the direction of parliamentary participation, of parliamentary approval or disapproval of this very significant step.

As New Democrats, our main quarrel with the Minister of National Defence at this time is national missile defence by stealth. First of all the government was not going to have anything to do with it, then it was discussing it, and now it is on stream. This is not the way these kinds of major decisions should be made.

We certainly hope that the member for LaSalle--Émard, who is certainly on stream to becoming the next prime minister of Canada, will make his position clear on this issue so we can have a debate with him and with those who support him about the position that he has taken.

It is pretty obvious that the position of the new prime minister will be one of support for national missile defence because he is making noises that somehow we have to kiss and make up with Washington for our brief shining moment of independence when it came to the war in Iraq. This is one of the concerns that we have had and one which I notice the former minister of foreign affairs has. The price to be paid for our independence on the war in Iraq will be years of acquiescence, of making up, for that independence. It seems to us it was no coincidence that shortly after that the government began to move in the way it has on national missile defence.

I will end there. Perhaps the minister will have an opportunity in questions and comments to respond to one of the things that I raised earlier in my remarks.

Committees of the House

[David Pratt, Liberal, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

Madam Speaker, I have the honour to present, in both official languages, the fifth report of the Standing Committee on National Defence and Veterans Affairs.

In accordance with its order of reference of Thursday, September 25, 2003, your committee has considered and held hearings on Bill C-50, an act to amend the statute law in respect of benefits for veterans and the children of deceased veterans, and agreed on Thursday, October 9, 2003, to report it without amendment.

In addition, I have the honour to present, in both official languages, the sixth report of the Standing Committee on National Defence and Veterans Affairs.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), your committee, during its consideration on October 9, 2003, of Bill C-50, an act to amend the statute law in respect of benefits for veterans and the children of deceased veterans, unanimously adopted a motion.

If I could have the indulgence of the House to read the two sentence motion involving veterans, I would be happy to provide it.

Children of Deceased Veterans Education Assistance Act

[Raymonde Folco, Liberal, Laval West, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am glad to rise today to take part in the debate on a bill that is important to a very large segment of the Canadian population.

As we all know, Veterans Affairs Canada has been serving the needs of veterans for almost a century now. In recent years its legitimate mandate to serve both traditional wartime veterans and modern era Canadian Forces members has been quite a challenge. The needs of the two groups are similar in principle but quite different in practice.

Although they are dwindling in number, the veterans who are still alive are increasingly making use of the services and benefits provided by the department, precisely because of failing health and complicated needs.

The changes proposed in this bill and the related regulations that are already in force or will be so shortly--we hope--will meet the most urgent needs of a few of our most distinguished senior citizens.

Bill C-50 speaks to both the past and the future. Let us first take a look at the new provisions for former prisoners of war.

I wonder how many of our colleagues know that Canada is one of the few countries in the world to provide compensation to former POWs. The relevant legislation was first introduced in Canada in 1976. At the time, the publicity campaign to reach out to eligible veterans generated more than 5,700 applications. Currently Veterans Affairs Canada provides benefits and services to about 4,000 former POWs to the tune of about $53 million a year.

We are taking additional measures today to help those special groups of citizens. We are increasing the benefits and broadening the compensation. The bill stipulates how the benefits are calculated under the Pension Act. The rate of the disability pension is based on the period of time the veteran was a prisoner.

Under the current legislation, veterans have to have been prisoners for at least 89 days to be eligible for disability benefits, as opposed to 30 days under the proposed changes.

Members will also note that, with this bill, the benefits for those taken prisoner in Europe will increase with the length of time they were held.

Thanks to these changes, groups like the merchant navy vets or the Dieppe veterans, who were taken prisoner at the very beginning of the war, will be entitled to enhanced benefits. And God knows that these people, because of their age, need more health care and more money.

I cannot imagine any opinion in this House, or anywhere else for that matter, against the addition to the compensation levels for this unique group of veterans whose experience of war included the terrible privations of war prisons.

In Laval West, the riding I represent in this House, there are two groups of veterans, one group in Chomedy and the other in Laval West. I know how proud these men and women are of the increased recognition this House and the Government of Canada are giving to their sacrifices as of today.

In a similar vein, I cannot imagine any objection to providing substantial financial assistance to children for their post-secondary educational needs where their veteran parents have died as a result of service. I believe that educational assistance for children of deceased forces members are part of the broader debt that the Government of Canada and all Canadians owe to those veterans who have died either as a result of military service or with a disability pension assessed as medium or higher. It seems to me that the bill is very fair in this regard.

A $4,000 yearly maximum is set for tuition in addition to a monthly $300 living allowance. The department expects that 70 eligible students will benefit from these increased tuition assistance and living allowance rates during the next five years.

I want to congratulate the minister on also taking care of the students who were unable to receive this financial assistance when the program was interrupted in 1995. We shall be sure to correct all obvious injustices caused by this interruption of the program eight years ago.

In the coming year, it is estimated that 60 former students will be eligible for financial assistance in respect of the education they undertook between 1995 and 2003, up to $12,000. This is substantial financial assistance and I hope it will help them pay back their student loans.

These changes to the Children of Deceased Veterans Education Assistance Act are a gift that speaks to the future. The children of Canadian Forces members who serve years from now and who subsequently die on duty or die with a pension disability of 48% or greater will receive this coverage. I am sure this resurrected and improved upon program will give great peace of mind to veterans and their families. It seems the least we can do for those who put their lives on the line for their nation.

The third amendment concerning eligibility for the war veterans allowance comes out of a case concerning an individual's right to WVA even though he never actually served in the Canadian armed forces. The matter was complicated and was eventually resolved by the courts in the client's favour when it was decided that he had to be considered a member of the armed forces.

As legislators, we do our courts, our judicial agencies and our citizens a service when we make the meaning and intent of our legislation crystal clear. What this amendment does is add clarity where perhaps it was missing in the current legislation and which gave rise, therefore, to the court proceedings I have just mentioned.

The minister has also mentioned the regulatory provisions that will soon be in effect to improve access for veterans or their dependants to health benefits. Survivors who need housekeeping and landscaping services, offered under the veterans independence program, or VIP, can now enjoy such services for life.

Veterans who receive a pension of at least 48% are now eligible for access to the health care programs, whether or not their health problems are related to a pensionable disability. Overseas service veterans waiting for access to a hospital bed will now receive VIP and health care benefits.

Moreover, allied veterans who have lived in Canada for 10 years or longer after the war will have access to VIP and health care benefits.

Finally, veterans who receive only POW compensation and are totally disabled will have access to VIP and health care benefits, where these are not available to them from provincial programs.

It is not difficult to imagine how these regulations and the amendments we are considering in Bill C-50 are going to make life a whole lot easier for these veterans and their families. When the minister announced his package of urgent needs proposals last May, Mr. Allan Parks, Dominion President of the Royal Canadian Legion, stated the following:

The Royal Canadian Legion welcomes this positive development in ensuring that the sacrifices of Canadian veterans will not be forgotten. In catering to the needs of prisoners of war, surviving spouses, and the long term care of veterans, Canada remains at the forefront of support to its veterans.

As legislators, I think we would all want to stay exactly in that position: at the forefront. Bill C-50 does just that. I join the minister in urging its swift passage.

[Wendy Lill, NDP, Dartmouth, NS]

Mr. Speaker, it is my pleasure to speak to Bill C-50 and follow my colleague from Newfoundland on this important matter.

Bill C-50 is an important piece of legislation. It increases the benefits for veterans and the children of deceased veterans. Some of the things that I appreciate about the bill is it extends compensation for former prisoners of war, and it extends the health programs for war veterans with a pensioned disability regardless of whether their health needs are related to their military service.

The legislation also provides improvements to the veterans independence program and health care benefits to overseas service veterans at home when there is a wait list for a priority access bed. Health care benefits also are available for allied veterans with 10 years post-war residence in Canada. That is also an important point. The bill establishes an education assistance program for the children of deceased Canadian Forces veterans. These are all important things and the NDP is happy to support the bill.

I would like to take a minute to thank the veterans who live in this country and who continue to keep the flame alive about the issues of peace and their contributions to us and the world we live in today.

I come from the Atlantic region. I represent Dartmouth and many veterans live in my riding. They were young men and women when they left our shores many years ago to fight for our freedom, and although they all hoped to come back safe and sound of mind and body, the sad reality is that many of them returned with a disability. Also I would like to thank their spouses, in many cases women, who took on the role of caregivers for these veterans.

My riding of Dartmouth borders on Halifax harbour which was the staging ground for most of our overseas troops in World War I, World War II, the Korean war, and most recently the actions in the gulf. Every opportunity I have I go to see one of the ships that is either leaving on a mission or returning home. It is an awesome sight to see the families waiting for their loved ones to come back. It is a very elevating moment when they come home and a very sad time every time they leave.

In my job as an MP I have learned more about people in my riding at events like that and getting to know the military families than I have learned in any other area. I did not know the extent of their commitment to our country. I did not know the extent of the passion and commitment of our military and its families. That is a gift to me in this job.

One area that we are concerned about in this legislation is around the issue of veterans benefits and the veterans independence program in particular.

Earlier this year the Minister of Veterans Affairs announced regulatory changes to the veterans independence program so that veterans' widows would receive government help to maintain their homes after the death of their husbands with no time limits. Prior to those changes, a widow would be cut off from benefits one year after her husband's death. That part of the program was obviously inadequate and we are glad it was addressed.

Unfortunately, an arbitrary timeline has been put on this so that the government will be helping some widows, those whose husbands died after May 2003, but it will not be helping up to 28,000 partners whose husbands or wives died before that arbitrary cutoff date. It is no surprise and we can all understand what this actually means.

We will now see two classes of veterans' widows and widowers. There will be those who ironically I guess were lucky enough to have their partner pass away after that magic date of May 2003. Then there will be those who were unlucky enough, and they are all unlucky obviously, but they were unlucky to have their partner pass away on April 29 or 30 or on March 29 or 30.

If death occurred in April or March, those families are doubly grieving because there will be no support for them through the VIP. This is something that I cannot understand and certainly those people cannot understand.

I have heard from constituents whose fathers and grandfathers have died before May 2003. I know every MP in the House has also heard of this kind of situation. Now those constituents' mothers and grandmothers are struggling to maintain their homes without any help. At the same time they know that there is somebody else, possibly living next door to them, who will be receiving help from the government because their husband died after that cutoff date.

The grandchildren and the children feel that this is unjust and against the mission of Veterans Affairs Canada which promises to respond to the needs of veterans and their families. These regulatory changes could help these women stay in their family homes, maintain their independence and be a practical expression of our gratitude to these families. Instead, it is a slap in the face to up to 28,000 women and men and their families. Veterans Affairs Canada claims to be supporting these women but it is saying that it is too costly to move that date back or to try to accommodate these families.

The government has to be ashamed for telling these people that in fact they are too much of a burden, that there are other priorities, such as reallocating budget funds, and that there are more important things to deal with than elderly widows, widowers and vulnerable citizens. I do not find that acceptable. I do not know anyone in my community who would find that acceptable. I do not think members of the House find it acceptable.

We have to take care of people who have taken care of us and who are in need at this time. It is just as clear to me as the nose on my face. This has to be eradicated. This has to be fixed.

In closing I will read from the introduction to the proposed legislative changes:

Veterans are using services and benefits more extensively as they cope with deteriorating health and increasingly complex care needs.... As war Veterans are now at an average of 80 years, this need for change has become urgent.

The department is absolutely right in recognizing that fact, but it must also recognize the fact that the spouses are also deteriorating in health and experiencing complex care needs.

Veterans Affairs has a moral responsibility to extend the veterans independence program access to widows whose spouses have passed away before that date because they too are in critical need of health care and the kind of care that we have available.

I join with many others here in the House and I join with thousands of people in my riding who say that we cannot put qualifiers on this very important program. We cannot put time qualifiers on it. We have to make sure that this small and vulnerable portion of our population gets the care that they need at this point in time.

Although the NDP is generally supportive of other measures in Bill C-50, without an improvement to the situation of these 28,000 widows and widowers, these changes are simply not good enough.

[Roy H. Bailey, Canadian Alliance, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

Mr. Speaker, I am very proud to stand here today to speak to Bill C-50. Last Saturday night I had the privilege of meeting the group reunion of the South Saskatchewan Regiment in the city of Weyburn. As many know, the South Saskatchewan Regiment was one of those that hit the shores of Dieppe in 1942. Many of them were there.

If I think back and recollect the thoughts that were expressed by the veterans, by some prisoners of war and indeed by some widows who were there that evening, one gets a different look at the bill itself. I can appreciate the minister when he said that there was no new money in this bill within his department. It is simply a reallocation. I say to the people out there, I believe this minister struggled hard to fulfill all of this bill, but he did not get the money. That is a sad tale for our veterans and their dependants across Canada.

This party has long seen the results of what happened in 1995 when the budget cuts came in. They did not ignore our veterans, rather they hacked into what we were then paying to the veterans. The budget of 1995 also cut some of their programs.

I think of shaking the hands of the vets who were at the reunion. Their regiments was one that hit the shores of Dieppe on up to Pourville and suffered tremendous casualties. Then when I thought about how the federal government had so dishonoured the widows of some of these vets, it just about tore me to pieces.

I am old enough to remember the educational program that we had for the children of the vets of World War I. I can remember, in a previous occupation, signing their attendance to prove these people were at school. I am pleased to see this program continuing. That is a plus for Canadians. That in itself says we honour the dependants of vets.

There is one thing terribly wrong with the allocation of funding to the POWs. The oldest serving generals of our POWs were those who were captured in Hong Kong. Next came those who hit the shores of Dieppe. Many of the prisoners of war taken from D-Day on virtually served about one year.

I am not quarreling with the program itself. I am quarreling about this. Our military people were taught to escape, and escape they did. I want to say that being a POW in any of the camps was not Hogan's Heroes . It was a tough life. Those who escaped found their way back sometimes to their unit. Sometimes they were months and months trying to get back to Britain for medical attention and then they rejoined.

According to this bill and to my understanding, the POW pension is only for the days in which they were incarcerated. Does it include the other days as well? That is one question. We have to ensure that this is looked at very carefully because I have talked to people who did escape and then went back. However they are not receiving the pension and they should.

The minister alluded at some length to the veterans independence program. Many MPs within the House and most people in Canada simply do not understand for what VIP stands. We know it is “very important person”. I want to say there are no more important people than the veterans and their widows.

VIP in this bill refers to a program to help the veterans and their wives live independently in their home. This side has always supported that program. What we did not support, and what I repeated in the House and in committee a thousand times, was that if the veteran died, the spouse if she wished to remain in their home would only covered for one year under that program. My argument was always that if two people needed the program, surely one must. I congratulate the government for the extension of that program, I believe it was in June.

There are tens of thousands of veterans' widows. I have received thousands of letters. For widows prior to September, who did not qualify or whose spouse had died and the year was up, this payment is not retroactive. If I have to stand here until midnight to say that is a national disgrace, that is exactly what I would do. I held the hand of one of these widows last Saturday night who told me that her net income was $1,100 a month, but she had been cut off this program. That is wrong. That is not acceptable.

When I and Canadians look at the daily paper, we see $1.6 million going here, another $1 million going there, somebody else runs away with this or that, yet we have thousands of widows out there who do not qualify for the veterans VIP simply because their husbands died a year or two before. Not one member of the House, no one anywhere, would agree that making this a continuum for some and not for others is correct and just and right.

Without any hesitation, I beg, and I will be begging in the Veterans Affairs committee, that we re-examine this. I trust that the minister. The minister used the words “comforts and dignity”, and I believe he means that. I am looking at some 30,000 or more widows across the country who are not living in comfort and they are certainly not living in dignity.

It really hurts to know that in 1995, with the severe cuts, the veterans and their widows paid the supreme price. To members in the House and to anyone watching out there, let us do the right thing. These widows are not only mothers, they are grandmothers and, in many cases, great-grandmothers.

I think our Minister of Veterans Affairs has a deep concern. I can tell the minister that I will be supporting an amendment to make sure that we look at all veterans' widows across Canada and do not forget them. In the famous words of our most noted poem surrounding November 11, “Lest we forget”; lest we forget now when we have the opportunity to honour those widows out there who desperately need our help.

This is not a long term bill. At their age, hundreds are passing on every month. It will not cost the government very much money over a decade to do the honourable thing. If I were minister of veterans affairs, I would be running to step up front. I would want to take some credit for doing the right thing, as I am sure the minister wants to.

I have one comment I would like to make in closing. This is not related directly to the bill but it is related directly to Veterans Affairs. Our most revered day for veterans is coming up on November 11. I do not know who arranged for the different arrangements for the distribution of the wreaths that will be laid across Canada on behalf of veterans, but I can say, serving a rural community, that it will be very difficult for each one of my active legions to get to that wreath and pick it up at the member's office. My time is short but I will talk about this at another time.

I thank the minister for the work he has done. I know the fiscal pressure he has been under from cabinet and so on, but whatever happens let us hope that we do the right thing and honour our widows and our vets, and, in particular, those who have struggled throughout this life in Canada.

[Rey D. Pagtakhan, Liberal, Minister of Veterans Affairs]

moved that Bill C-50, an act to amend the statute law in respect of benefits for veterans and the children of deceased veterans, be read the second time and referred to a committee.

Mr. Speaker, it is indeed my honour and privilege to lead off second reading debate on Bill C-50, an act to amend the statute law in respect of benefits for veterans and the children of deceased veterans.

Indeed, the bill provides us with a unique opportunity, one, to offer financial assistance to the children of veterans who die as a result of their military service; two, to clarify the requirements for the war veterans allowance program; and three, to enhance compensation for both shorter term and longer term former prisoners of war. Concurrent with the bill are regulatory changes, to be found in a separate form, which will help war era veterans and their spouses, including eligible overseas and allied veterans, live out their remaining years in comfort and dignity.

In fact, these objectives reflect the most pressing needs and longstanding concerns of our wartime veterans as identified by national veterans organizations. We therefore wanted to accomplish these goals as expeditiously as possible. So timely are the proposed statutory and regulatory amendments that we in the department have come to refer to them as our urgent needs legislation.

One might think the bill is largely a technical one, subtracting or adding sections to existing pieces of legislation. The amendments appear to be technical indeed, but their effects are substantial and profound.

The first amendment re-establishes the children of deceased veterans education assistance act, the act that provided authority for my department's education assistance program from its inception in 1953 until its discontinuance in February 1995. With the enactment of Bill C-50, we will be re-establishing the act and substantially improving upon the program for children of Canadian Forces members killed in the line of duty or who, at the time of death, were pensioned at the rate of 48% or greater.

The program will assist eligible children attending a post-secondary institution, such as a university, a college or a trade school, with their living expenses and tuition fees. A monthly living allowance of $300 will be sent directly to the students, over and above any amount payable to them as surviving children under the pension act. Reimbursement for tuition fees will be made directly to the educational institutions, to a maximum amount of $4,000 per year, adjusted yearly as a function of the consumer price index.

In addition, education assistance will be given to former students who completed their education after the education assistance program was discontinued in 1995. This will be of particular importance to children of Canadian Forces members who were killed in the line of duty during this time period. This coverage will preclude any unfairness. They will be eligible for the education assistance rates that were in effect as of January 2003.

Also under this program, children who did not attend a post-secondary institution after the education assistance program was discontinued and who now choose to attend are eligible to receive up to four years of assistance at the new rates established with the passage of the bill. Eligible students can qualify for assistance until their 30th birthday.

The next amendment clarifies the wartime service requirements for members of the Canadian Forces. It will establish that a member of the forces must have enlisted, served and been discharged from that service to be eligible for benefits under the War Veterans Allowance Act.

Members may recall that as a result of recent Federal Court rulings, some ambiguity resulted with respect to the definition that had to be applied for the purposes of the War Veterans Allowance Act to a member of the Canadian Forces who served during the first and second world wars. I believe it essential, and most certainly veterans do, that this change be undertaken so that the legislation makes it abundantly clear this aspect of wartime service is a fundamental consideration under this particular legislation.

The third amendment improves coverage and compensation for former prisoners of war, POWs. This amendment will do two things. One, it will modify the current POW compensation scale to benefit POWs who were imprisoned for shorter periods of time than now currently called for; and two, it will increase payments plus the current maximum timeframe covered.

Moreover, concomitant regulatory changes will provide veterans who are only in receipt of POW compensation and are totally disabled with access to veterans independence program, VIP, services and health care benefits, where these are not available to them from provincial programs.

POW veterans have always occupied a special place in the hearts and eyes of the government and fellow veterans, and in fact in the hearts and eyes of all Canadians.

Speaking further of regulatory changes related thematically to the bill before us but to be found in separate form, there are four. First, we are extending health programs to war service veterans with a pensioned disability between 48% and 77%. What that does is it recognizes that these veterans now have multiple and complex health needs. It acknowledges the difficulty of differentiating between health care needs related to the pensioned injury and those that are due to the infirmities of old age. Thus, we are covering both eventualities for those health care requirements not covered under provincial legislation.

Second, we are also providing VIP and health care benefits to overseas service veterans residing in Canada and living at home because they are unable to access a priority access bed in a long term care facility due to a wait list.

Third, we are offering as well long term care and health benefits to allied veterans who have lived in Canada for 10 years or longer since the end of the war. Eligible allied veterans will have access to long term care in community facilities when they are admitted to such facilities for the first time. In cases where the allied veteran needs care that can no longer be provided at a community residence, for example, palliative care and dementia care, the veteran becomes eligible to receive care in a facility where veterans affairs has access to a priority bed.

These changes to the regulations will come into effect this fall. They are part of a continuum of changes that we see as crucial to our ongoing efforts to better the lives of our heroes who are now in their twilight years.

The fourth on the regulatory front of the continuum, and the most significant in its reach and scope, is the one affecting the spouses and partners, the survivors, of war veterans who were in receipt of VIP benefits at the time of their passing. Of all the issues that veterans groups have talked to me about, they regard this as one of the most pressing.

As hon. members know, VIP has been one of my department's most popular programs for veterans and their survivors. Its provisions for housekeeping and grounds maintenance services have helped keep very senior veterans living at home rather than in care facilities, likely for years longer than might otherwise be anticipated and made possible, no doubt, by the caregiver assistance of their spouses.

We recognize that in these later years the caregiving which the spouses provide their veteran partners is priceless indeed, not just for the veterans in a personal sense, but it is priceless to the Canadian health care system and taxpayers in dollars saved in helping keep them healthy and independent at home.

We have also come to recognize the physical and emotional toll such care places on elderly caregivers. For years now caregiver survivors have benefited from the continuation of such services for one year after the death of their veteran spouse.

Starting May 1 of this year, VIP is being extended to eligible survivors then in receipt of this benefit, along with the spouses of veterans who die after the new amendment is approved, not for just a year but for as long as they need the grounds keeping and all housekeeping services of the program. In fact approval of this regulatory change was accelerated and took place last June.

About 10,000 surviving spouses will benefit from this change in the next five years at a cost of $65.9 million, nearly half of the total financial resources we had, some $134 million, for all the urgent needs we had to fund.

As I had earlier alluded to in the House, we wished we had the capability to include recipient survivors whose one year VIP extension had ended before last May's announcement. In fact we raised and discussed this very issue with the leadership of the veterans' organizations. We were in a dilemma. Time was of the essence. Should we proceed with the package, knowing we could not include survivors whose VIP had ended? It was our collective and unanimous decision to proceed as I proceeded to announce the package in the House. Thus, it was not for lack of heart, it was not for lack of will, it was simply the case of limited resources. It was simply the case of reality.

May I at this juncture seize this opportunity to reiterate my thanks to Mr. Allan Parks, Dominion President of the Royal Canadian Legion; Mr. Robert Cassels, Dominion President of the Army, Navy and Air Force Veterans in Canada Association; and Mr. Clifford Chadderton, Chairman of the National Council of Veterans Association for their leadership and participation at every step of the process as we were developing this package of initiatives as reflected in Bill C-50 and in the concomitant regulatory changes, including the funding mechanism. Their advocacy on behalf of veterans and their families is laudable and their insights have been most valuable to me and to my department.

Let me say a word on funding mechanism before I conclude. Altogether, the statutory amendments along with their regulatory counterparts will mean millions of dollars of additional benefits will go to the neediest of veterans and their family members. However, they are not adding millions of extra dollars to my department's budget, nor adding to the taxpayer's burden. Rather, we are reallocating funds internally within the department to address the high priorities of those veterans and other clients in the greatest need.

This funding mechanism will involve clarifying the attendance allowance program policy to bring it more in line with its intended target. As originally envisioned in the legislation, attendance allowance is a monthly payment which may be awarded to a veteran who is receiving a disability pension and/or prisoner of war compensation. The individual must also be totally disabled and in need of attendance due to his or her physical or mental state.

In existence since 1919, the attendance allowance program is closely guarded by veterans' organizations, and rightly so. They support changes to the program provided that savings realized are used to fund programs that meet their urgent needs without detracting from any other program. I should at once say that existing clients will continue to receive their attendance allowance benefits at their current grade level.

I believe the statutory amendments before us in Bill C-50, combined with the regulatory changes, will make eminent sense in the life of our veterans, and in the sad instance of their passing, in the life of their surviving spouses or dependent children.

I look forward to hearing my colleague's views on this very important matter. I look forward to our collective wisdom in this House. A speedy enactment of this bill would be one more expression of our nation's unending gratitude to our veterans who offered themselves, most in the prime of their youth, in the service of our country.

Truly, we are further honouring our heroes with the speedy passage of Bill C-50.

Business Of The House

[Don Boudria, Liberal, Minister of State and Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member across is a little impatient with his future holidays. He will probably have to wait some time.

This afternoon we will continue to debate second reading of Bill C-48, the natural resources taxation bill. I understand that the bill is nearing completion.

When it is complete, we will then debate Bill C-50, the veterans' benefits bill sponsored by my colleague, the Minister of Veterans Affairs, followed by the consideration of the Senate amendments to Bill C-10B, the cruelty to animal bill.

If time is left, we would deal with third reading of Bill C-17, the public safety bill, and second reading of Bill C-46, the market fraud bill.

In the unlikely event that we do not complete all of that this afternoon, on Friday we would begin with a reference to committee before second reading of Bill C-41, the amendments and corrections bill. The opposition House leader and I have had a brief conversation about this

We would then proceed with Bill C-37, respecting improvements to Canadian Forces pension benefits.

We will then return to any bills already mentioned today in the unlikely event that some of them are not fully completed.

On Monday, we would begin with Bill C-17, the public safety bill, and then return to the list previously described.

Tuesday, September 30, and Thursday, October 2, shall both be allotted days.

Veterans Affairs

[Rey D. Pagtakhan, Liberal, Minister of Veterans Affairs and Secretary of State (Science]

Mr. Speaker, before the House is Bill C-50 wherein we have introduced amendments precisely to address the urgent needs of veterans. I would like the member, instead of speaking away from the issue, to support the bill.

The government can take pride that it is taking care of veterans and their families.

Government Expenditures

[Don Boudria, Liberal, Minister of State and Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Mr. Speaker, no one has mentioned any amount at all. The initiative in question is a private member's initiative that we vote on by a free vote in the House.

Insofar as improving benefits to our veterans is concerned, I ask the hon. member to support the excellent bill proposed by my colleague, the Minister of Veterans Affairs, Bill C-50, which hopefully will be before the House either today or the day after. We hope the Alliance will finally vote for something that will help veterans for a change.

Business of the House

[Don Boudria, Liberal, Minister of State and Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Mr. Speaker, I will be pleased over the following weeks to continue to elaborate on the program from now until December 12 for the benefit of the hon. member and for anyone else. More specifically, about the following week, I wish to express the following by way of the business statement.

This afternoon, we will continue with the debate on the opposition motion.

Tomorrow, the House will return to the motion to refer Bill C-49, the electoral boundaries bill, to committee before second reading. This will be followed by Bill C-45, the corporate liability bill, or Westray bill if you like, and Bill C-34, the ethics commissioner bill.

On Monday, we will begin with bills not completed this week, Friday in particular. We will then proceed to Bill C-46, respecting market fraud, Bill C-50 respecting veterans, Bill C-17, the public safety bill, and finally Bill C-36, the Library and Archives of Canada bill.

Tuesday will be an allotted day.

On Wednesday and Thursday, the House will begin consideration of Bill C-48, respecting resource taxation, and will then return to any of the business just listed that has not been completed.

Children of Deceased Veterans Education Assistance Act

[Rey D. Pagtakhan, Liberal, Minister of Veterans Affairs and Secretary of State (Science]

moved for leave to introduce Bill C-50, an act to amend the statute law in respect of benefits for veterans and the children of deceased veterans.

(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and printed)