Bill C-37 (Historical)

An Act to amend the Telecommunications Act

This enactment amends the Telecommunications Act to permit the Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission to administer databases for the purpose of its power under section 41, namely the power to prohibit or regulate the use by any person of the telecommunications facilities of a Canadian carrier for the provision of unsolicited telecommunications to the extent that the Commission considers it necessary to prevent undue inconvenience or nuisance, giving due regard to freedom of expression.
The enactment also establishes an administrative monetary penalty for the contravention of prohibitions or requirements of the Commission under that section.

Telecommunications Act

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Mr. Speaker, there have been discussions among the parties and I think you would find unanimous consent to order that Bill C-37, an act to amend the Telecommunications Act, be deemed to have been amended as follows. I move:

That Bill C-37, in Clause 1, be amended by replacing lines 23 to 26 on page 3 with the following:

“paragraph (c) for an electoral district;

(f) made for the sole purpose of collecting information for a survey of members of the public; or

(g) made for the sole purpose of soliciting a subscription for a newspaper of general circulation”.

This motion, as you will note, is identical to Motion No. 7, which was not selected for consideration at report stage.

[Ken Dryden, Liberal, for the Minister of Industry]

moved that Bill C-37, An Act to amend the Telecommunications Act, be read the third time and passed.

Business of the House

[Tony Valeri, Liberal, Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Mr. Speaker, I find the last part of that question a little puzzling, given that the hon. member was at the meeting where I in fact outlined the opposition days. They will begin the week of November 14 and will go right to December 8. We are meeting our commitment and our obligation to provide seven opposition days during this supply period.

We will continue this afternoon with the second reading debate of Bill C-65, the street racing bill, followed by Bill C-64, the vehicle identification legislation, Bill S-37, respecting the Hague convention, Bill S-36, the rough diamonds bill, and reference to committee before second reading of Bill C-50, respecting cruelty to animals.

Tomorrow, we will start with any bills not completed today. As time permits, we will turn to second reading of Bill C-44, the transportation bill, and reference to committee before second reading of Bill C-46, the correctional services legislation. This will be followed by second reading of Bill C-52, respecting fisheries.

I expect that these bills will keep the House occupied into next week.

On Monday we will start with third reading of Bill C-37, the do not call legislation. I also hope to begin consideration of Bill C-66, the energy legislation, by midweek. We will follow this with Bill C-67, the surpluses bill.

Some time ago the House leaders agreed to hold a take note debate on the softwood lumber issue on the evening of Tuesday, October 25.

We also agreed on an urgent basis to have such a debate on the issue of the U.S. western hemisphere travel initiative on the evening of Monday, October 24.

Accordingly, pursuant to Standing Order 53.1(1), I move:

That debates pursuant to Standing Order 53.1 take place as follows:

(1) on Monday, October 24, 2005, on the impact on Canada of the United States western hemisphere travel initiative;

(2) on Tuesday, October 25, 2005, on softwood lumber.

Telecommunications Act

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, for the Minister of Industry]

moved that Bill C-37, as amended, be concurred in with further amendment and read the second time.

[Gurmant Grewal, Conservative, Newton—North Delta, BC]

Yes, Madam Speaker, that is why we have a do not call list here, which we are debating.

I am very pleased to rise on behalf of the constituents of Newton—North Delta to participate in the report stage debate on Bill C-37, an act to amend the Telecommunications Act. The bill addresses telemarketing calls by enabling the CRTC to establish and enforce a do not call registry similar to those already found in the U.S. and the United Kingdom.

We all have received unwanted calls at awkward times, even sometimes in the House, from people attempting to sell goods or services or convey some sort of message. Sometimes these calls are invasive, disruptive, time consuming and incredibly annoying.

Telemarketing scored number four in Time magazine's survey of the worst ideas of the 20th century. A survey conducted by Decima Research, undoubtedly by telephone, found that 75% of Canadians want the federal government to institute a do not call list to protect them against unsolicited telephone calls.

In 2003 the U.S. responded to the unwanted telemarketing calls by establishing a national do not call list. Americans were quick to sign on, registering more than seven million phone numbers on the first day. This summer, registrations surpassed the 100 million mark in the United States.

Since its origin, the registry, run by the Federal Trade Commission, has received nearly one million complaints, nine violation cases and four fraud cases in the United States.

Before going to committee, Bill C-37 was almost an empty shell, with most of the details left to the regulations. As a result, we did not know if there would be any exclusions to the list, how much it would cost, who would operate the list and so on.

This government habitually introduces shell bills that lack substance and are written in often incomplete general terms that are vague in their intent.

Much of the law that affects Canadians is found not in the Consolidated Statutes of Canada, but in the thousands of regulations made pursuant to powers granted by acts of Parliament. This leaves the door wide open to put through regulations that define our laws, without the proper checks and balances.

What is surprising is that 80% of the law that governs Canada is done through the back door by regulations, not by laws passed in Parliament. By doing so, the Liberal government has effectively gutted the parliamentary process of accountability and transparency in the formulation of its laws. Parliament is no longer at the centre of the law-making process. It is the bureaucrats who are at the centre.

During second reading debate, if members recall, I outlined all these concerns. I concluded my speech by saying that the registry, if established, must be “within parameters clearly defined by Parliament and with reasonable exemptions provided for charities, political parties and companies that wish to contact their current customers” and that we must craft a more detailed piece of legislation so that both consumers and telemarketers will know how the do not call registry will work.

After second reading, at committee, the Conservative Party members, my colleagues, worked to amend the bill and to add several new clauses to the Telecommunications Act. These amendments require the CRTC to report to the minister annually on the operation of the national do not call list and further require a review of the do not call legislation three years after the coming into force of the act as amended.

Most significantly, the bill was amended to provide certain exemptions from inclusion on the national do not call list, notably for charities, “existing business relationships”, political parties and pollsters.

In the original version of Bill C-37, these exemptions were not laid out by the government. Furthermore, the power to determine these details was delegated by the Liberals to the CRTC and its regulatory powers rather than the elected representatives in this House.

There are more concerns. Sometimes aggressive telemarketers call the most vulnerable in our society, such as seniors on fixed incomes, to induce them into gambling or lotteries or to scam and defraud them. These citizens need and deserve our protection.

Bill C-37 does not address unsolicited ads on the Internet. When young children are learning through the Internet or surfing the web to do their homework projects, they are bombarded with pornographic and vulgar ads. They are not suitable for young children or even in a family setting.

I am disappointed that the protection of children against vulgar images and the temptation that is forced upon them is not within the scope of this bill. So far nothing has been done by this weak Liberal government to provide any protection to those who deserve it and who need it.

The bill does not address the unsolicited faxes ringing on shared residential telephone lines, many times in the middle of the night. As we know, the faxes sometimes do not display the telephone number of the sender. I do not know how those numbers will be added to the do not call list.

These are very important details that deserve the consideration of Parliament.

Even with the amendments in place, I am still concerned over how much this scheme will cost when implemented. The government says that the registry would be self-financing. Of course, the government said the same thing for the long gun registry also introduced by this government. The gun registry was supposed to cost a mere $2 million. It now has a tab approaching $2 billion, and that is billion with a “b”.

Canadians obviously do not want another fiasco like the gun registry. The Conservative Party will monitor the cost of maintaining this registry. It will make sure the registry operates smoothly, efficiently and in a way that best protects the interests of Canadians.

Some of the motions on this bill are housekeeping amendments, but one of the CPC amendments that was passed in committee forces everyone who is exempted, such as charities, political parties, candidates, polling firms and existing business relationship callers, to immediately identify themselves and state the nature of their business when they make a call.

The Liberals argue that this identification will bias survey answers. We agree, thus we are supporting this motion.

Generally in the telemarketing industry, Canadians buy more than $16 billion in goods and services over the telephone each year. This generates employment for more than a quarter of a million Canadians. The telemarketing industry is important to the livelihood of many of my constituents. B.C. is home over 300 call centres, ranging in size from a few agents to several hundred. There are currently an estimated 14,000 call centre jobs in the greater Vancouver area.

It is unclear what impact a national do not call registry would have on the Canadian telemarketing industry. It can be assumed, however, with the exemptions the Conservative Party successfully pushed for in committee, that the impact would be less than it would have been under the original bill put forward by the government.

To conclude, let me point out that a centrally administered national do not call list provides the means for consumers to avoid unsolicited telemarketing calls. A well-run do not call list will provide consumers with choice while protecting Canadian businesses and jobs.

The Conservative Party supports the establishment of a do not call list within parameters clearly defined by Parliament and with reasonable exemptions provided for charities, political parties, polling firms and companies that wish to contact their current customers.

While I personally still have some concerns with the bill, as I mentioned earlier, particularly about the management of the registry, I will be watching closely to protect the best interests of my constituents of Newton--North Delta and of all Canadians who are watching this debate.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Madam Speaker, like all Canadians I hate receiving calls, like the one I just received right now. Telemarketing calls always seem to come at the most inopportune time, which is why I welcome a do not call list.

Now that Bill C-37 has been amended, thanks to the hard work of the Conservative members in the committee, my only concern is with the management of the registry. We have seen how the government has managed other registries. Canadians cannot forget about the gun registry that was supposed to cost us $200 million and now it is $2 billion.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Madam Speaker, I rise today on behalf of the constituents of Fleetwood--Port Kells to participate in the debate on Bill C-37, an act to amend the Telecommunications Act, or the national do not call registry.

I understand the frustrations of the general public who are often inundated with phone calls that interrupt family dinners, entertainment and their lives, which is why I am generally supportive of such a bill. Do not call registries give the public a tool in controlling their own lives. It allows Canadians to protect their privacy and protect their personal lives from usual intrusive measures by telemarketers. Everyone has a story of being called late in the night or early on a weekend morning and having their day upset by obnoxious telemarketers.

Canadians in their busy lives are asking Parliament for simple solutions. We in the Conservative Party recognize this need and are supportive of a do not call registry.

However we must be careful not to throw the baby out with the bath water.

The telemarketing industry in Canada is important to the livelihood of many of my constituents and people across Canada. The industry employs more than 270,000 people and is worth approximately $16 billion in goods and services. With such an economic impact, it is important that the bill be specific in its intent and impact and contains no potential loopholes for Liberal regulators to go beyond the boundaries of the bill.

Earlier this year I rose to speak against the original bill because of its many flaws, especially for the potential of Liberal loopholes. At that time I and many of my colleagues were concerned with the bill's vagueness. Exceptions to the registry were not included in the bill and neither were any details on how the list would be maintained or checked by the respective companies involved. In the original version of Bill C-37, these exemptions were not laid out by the government.

Furthermore, the power to determine these details was delegated by the Liberals to the CRTC and its regulatory powers rather than to elected representatives. The irony was that even the CRTC in committee expressed its desire that Parliament be specific in its regulations to avoid confusion.

The CRTC is a regulatory body and should not be taking over the policy making capacity of the House of Commons or the government. Broadly worded legislation invites the potential for abuse and exports democracy to unelected people when that role is properly contained within the House of Commons.

I and many members of the House have reason to be concerned about such matters. The sponsorship program shows what poorly designed programs with Liberal loopholes can do: the waste and theft of millions of taxpayer dollars.

Before I support legislation creating another program, proper safeguards must be put in place to avoid bureaucratic bungling and political interference. We have already seen in the past what happens when such safeguards are not in place.

At the committee stage, I was happy to see that some of my concerns were addressed in the bill. Possible exemptions were clearly laid out thanks to the Conservatives and other opposition amendments. Political parties, charities and polling firms were all exempted, which is clearly in the public interest.

In a democracy, it is important that political parties, candidates and riding associations have the necessary tools to engage the public. Telephoning constituents is a necessary tool for members of Parliament and political parties to remain engaged with the public. We cannot afford as a democracy to enact legislation that could potentially lessen voter turnout even more.

Exceptions were also made for party candidates and riding associations, which I think is in keeping with my democratic concerns. Candidates and riding associations have even more reasons to be given an exemption. As the local representative of parties, riding associations and party candidates are connected to the grassroots. To take away the ability to phone constituents would be an affront to the right of political expression, not to mention further weakening of democratic participation in Canada.

Similarly, the exception made for charities remains key to the viability of our non-profit sectors. These organizations are already struggling to get funds due to overtaxation by the government.

In the United States, for instance, Americans give almost twice as much to charities as Canadians. It is not because Americans are more charitable that they give more. It is because they are taxed less.

Canadian charities need every tool available to them to continue their good work in our communities: feeding the poor, sheltering the homeless and providing places of worship for people of faith.

An exception for polling firms is also clearly in the public interest. While polling as an institution has its pros and cons, polling still provides a snapshot of Canadian opinion on a whole host of issues. We should not be led by polls but neither should we be ignorant of them. Polling also contributes to private sector research in product development and marketing, providing Canadians with better products and economic growth.

Who knows, without polls we may not have had the swiffer wet jet or the Mr. Clean eraser, which would be a travesty for housecleaners the world over.

Seriously, these exemptions are important to all democratic and market oriented societies. They can no doubt be abused but in the end they provide better democracy, improved products, more jobs and stronger economic growth.

However there is still concern as to whether another program under Liberal control will be adequately managed. I am committed to my constituents to keep a close eye on the do not call registry to ensure that the Liberals do not overrun their budgets like the gun registry program or the HRDC boondoggle.

Thankfully, a future Conservative government will ensure that this program is run within cost and does not become another gun registry or HRDC boondoggle.

Another major concern is fraud through telephones, for instance, gambling and lottery sales by telemarketers to vulnerable members of society, particularly the seniors on fixed incomes. There should be tough measures in place to prevent and deal with it.

Already in this minority Parliament we have substantially rewritten this bill and others and have shown the benefits of having a check on Liberal corruption, waste and mismanagement.

The bill attempts to bridge a divide between protecting a valued industry in Canada and the privacy rights of Canadians. With the exemptions now provided in the bill, I believe that legitimate business practice will continue and that political parties and charities can continue to reach out to the constituents of Fleetwood--Port Kells and the Canadian people.

[Joy Smith, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Madam Speaker, I thank my colleague from Yorkton for his insightful comments. There are a few things I want to put on record in terms of putting this debate into perspective as well.

Bill C-37 is an act to amend the Telecommunications Act. I want to make some comments regarding the establishment of the national do not call registry. This registry has merit. Based on the amendments that were put into the bill at committee, the Conservative Party supports the establishment of a national do not call registry with reasonable exemptions provided for charities, political parties and companies that wish to contact their current customers.

Whenever the word registry is put forward by the current government, it sends chills down the spines of Canadians. The intent of the bills put forward sounds good and certainly the political spin is well recorded on the front pages of many newspapers, especially when plane rides and announcements can be made on the taxpayers' backs. When the Prime Minister and his colleagues go across Canada repeatedly making announcements, the taxpayers are finding more and more that they are the ones who are actually paying for it. It is actually a pre-election campaign.

Having said that, something else has been disconcerting, and that is the gun registry. The gun registry is like a black hole. All across the country when the subject of the registry comes up, red flags go up all over the place.

Originally Bill C-37 had some serious issues that needed to be addressed. I must commend the work of the committee. The committee tried very hard to address some of the concerns.

The original version of Bill C-37 had no reasonable exemptions laid out for charities, political parties, polling firms or companies. That was a serious concern to the general public. There has to be control on fraudulent calls, especially calls to our most vulnerable citizens such as our senior citizens and make sure that the calls are not to fraudulently get money from our senior citizens or cause them distress. Usually telemarketers call at five or six in the evening during the dinner hour. Often this is the only time when families get a chance to sit down together and have some down time.

No one is arguing that there are many reasons that this bill is necessary. For those reasons and because of the amendments to the bill, the Conservative Party will support the bill.

One very important amendment is that three years after the do not call list comes into force, it will be reviewed by Parliament. That is very necessary. Because of the gun registry and because of the fraudulent use of taxpayers' money for more than a decade that the current government has been in power, there have to be checks and balances put in place to protect Canadian taxpayers' well-being, their money and quality of life.

Another amendment was that any person making a telecommunication must at the beginning of the call identify the purpose of the call and the person or organization on whose behalf the call is being made.

The amendments were the result of a leadership role by the Conservative members on the committee. The NDP did have input and supported the review after three years of the do not call list coming into force. Those were very important.

There are some other valuable amendments which exempt calls on behalf of registered charities, within the meaning of charities under the Income Tax Act; calls made on behalf of political parties as defined by the Canada Elections Act; calls made on behalf of a nomination contestant, a leadership contestant or a candidate of a party as defined in the Canada Elections Act; calls made on behalf of an electoral district association within the meaning of the Canada Elections Act; and calls made for the sole purpose of collecting information for a survey of members of the public.

In addition, all of the parties who have been made exempt must keep individual do not call lists. If a person is called by a charity and asks to be placed on the do not call list held by that charity, the charity is forced to comply and is not allowed to call that individual for three years. That is the current time limit. The length of time could be changed by the CRTC once the bill is passed.

All those amendments are valuable. Telecommunications and telemarketing is a huge business in Canada. A lot of companies rely on telemarketing to build their businesses. It is important to note that there are legitimate companies that value their customers and whose customers do rely on the telemarketing for contact with them.

In my riding of Kildonan—St. Paul many charitable organizations use telemarketing to reach out to my constituents. One example is Mothers Against Drunk Driving, MADD. Mothers Against Drunk Driving actually made a submission to committee and said that the bill in its original form would have a devastating financial impact on that organization.

When I was a member of the Manitoba legislature, I had a big fundraiser for Mothers Against Drunk Driving. All the proceeds, every cent, went to the organization. It was a fashion show. Prior to the fashion show people from Mothers Against Drunk Driving got up and recited all the important things that the organization did. There were testimonials from different people who had experienced loss of life in their families due to drunk drivers. I continue to financially and verbally support Mothers Against Drunk Driving. It is a very worthwhile initiative in Canada. My constituents in Kildonan—St. Paul certainly support MADD.

There are some very important initiatives and charities that do use telemarketing for very good purposes. It was important to ensure in Bill C-37 that charities, businesses and political parties were still allowed to use the telemarketing component in a very fair and reasoned way by putting in different checks and balances that would protect people from fraudulent telemarketing from other sources.

I will be supporting the bill because of the reasonable work that was done by committee. However a large red flag does go up. We need to ensure that the registry is used prudently and that the money is used solely for the registry.

[Garry Breitkreuz, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Madam Speaker, I have sat here for a couple of days now and listened to the debate. I support Bill C-37 in principle. It protects the privacy of Canadians and prevents them from harassment.

However, when I hear the Liberals mention the word “registry”, a red flag is immediately raised. I have not heard very much discussion on what it will cost.

The Liberal member who just spoke is absolving himself of responsibility in this area. He is in a sense almost blaming the opposition if this thing does not turn out right, if a bloated bureaucracy develops that is not effective while the opposition had a chance to correct it. The government administers these programs. The government's own bureaucracy will be responsible for the program. The minister has to take responsibility for it.

I have seen a gun registry that was supposed to have good intentions and results spin out of control and become so flawed as to be completely unusable. It ultimately became a big joke and a sinkhole for our tax dollars.

The Liberal MP has said that he has confidence that the costs will not spin out of control. I do not have that same confidence. I saw the government try to quietly sneak by a $273 million contract on the gun registry in March of this year. It did not even follow its own rules as to where these things should be listed and accounted for. I am a bit concerned.

I want to move on to something else. This is the main point of what I have to say today. In a sense this is putting the whole discussion in perspective from the average Canadian living outside of the Ottawa bubble.

Canadians look at what we are doing here today and they are asking me if this is all we have right now or if this is all we have in the agenda.

I just returned from a tour of my riding last week. Agriculture producers in the northern part of my riding are struggling with a harvest that is almost impossible to bring in. Imagine 17 inches of rain falling on the prairie in just a couple of weeks and the water has no place to go. The water sits on crops that were supposed to be the salvation of farmers who have struggled through a year of drought in 2003 and a killer frost in 2004. They had a nice crop coming along and suddenly they had rains that far surpassed what Katrina dumped on Louisiana and Texas. This rain has devastated what they had.

If we want to put a perspective on what we are debating here today, if we were to stand where these farmers are standing and look at what we are doing today, we might have a very different perspective. If we were surrounded by water that made it almost impossible to maintain our livelihood, this discussion today would seem quite irrelevant.

I do not have many opportunities to bring issues such as the flooding forward. The government dismisses the livelihood of farmers and agriculture producers as not a big factor with which it wants to deal. That is extremely unfortunate.

The people of my riding say that it is nice to pass this kind of legislation. It will allow people to sit on their couches and not be annoyed by someone phoning them to sell some vacation in Florida. However, when a farmer is losing his farm that has taken generations to build because the government has inadequate disaster relief available for grain producers, what we are doing today seems quite trite to them.

My constituents are asking me why Parliament is not dealing with issues that are of a higher priority to them. There are issues such as forcing a farmer to try to salvage a crop because he is trying to comply with some government imposed rules for crop insurance or a farm support program, such as the CAIS program. This is a problem which makes getting off the sofa to answer the phone look pretty insignificant.

That is the perspective in relation to which I want us to see this debate. We have spent so much time in the past two years blowing a lot of hot air past our teeth discussing nuances in legislation which for most Canadians is not a great priority. As they see us here today, they are thinking that it would be nice to have a do not call registry, and I support it, but they would rather have lower taxes so they could spend their money on their priorities, stay on their farms and not have more government programs imposed on them. That is their fear with another big registry. They quiver when they hear the word registry.

Farmers may also have some difficulties, but when they look at what we do here they ask why we cannot debate how our farm programs could be designed to be effective, because right now they are not working. The farmer sees government make big announcements about money flowing to agriculture, but he is frustrated by the fact that it just fuels a load of bureaucracy. It takes 50% to administer the government assistance programs. The farmer sees very little of the money coming in assistance to him.

I witnessed some unbelievable events this past week. Craig and Sharon Stegeman took me on a tour of their farm. We are not allowed to use props so I will just have to describe the pictures that they gave me. Standing on a bridge, as far as one can see there is water. The bridge happens to be the highest point of land. In another picture of their farm, the only things that show up are a few power and telephone poles sticking up through the water and maybe a few blades of grass that are a little longer than most. As far as one can see there is water, a high grid road with water covering it, or fields of grain standing in water. There is picture after picture of water. Then there is a place with trees and it looks as if the beavers have a built a dam, but they have not. That is just the natural result of 17 inches of rain. Swaths of grain have been washed into the ditches. There is no more swathed grain left in the fields.

A month after the rains, farmers tried to harvest their fields with their combines. They had to fit their combines with dual wheels. It cost them more than $20,000 to adapt their combines to drive through the water to cut the heads off the grain that was standing in the water. That is what these people are faced with and they have to do it. The farmers cannot even access any of the crop insurance or farm assistance if they do not make an attempt to harvest. They are ruining their land when they do this. It is unbelievable. I rode on one of the combines. The farmers do not want to scoop up water in case it gets into the grain they are harvesting. The grain is reasonably dry standing in the water.

The average city person probably does not even understand. These are not pictures from Louisiana and Texas. These are pictures from an area north of Yorkton.

When I went there last week there were 30 farmers waiting to talk to me. Every farmer in that area was there. We had a tailgate meeting. They poured their hearts out to me. It would have made members weep to hear the young farmers, their wives, and the older farmers tell the stories of how they have been working so hard. They have been killed by fuel costs. They have been hurt by fertilizer and chemical costs.

The Liberals have 40 pieces of legislation before the House. They have given the impression that we are really busy here. All these committees are working, but where the rubber hits the road, where the average person is trying to make a living, this seems to be quite irrelevant. The government sweeps agriculture problems under the rug. It gives the impression that CAIS and crop insurance are helping, but the claims for the year 2003 have not even been filled. The assistance that should have been coming is not there.

We need our city cousins to realize what is happening in rural areas, because what is happening is going to impact on them. The cheap food, the good quality food they have been enjoying will no longer be there when corporations take over because farmers cannot make a living supplying our city cousins with good quality food.

Let us take note of this. Let us put this whole debate in perspective because I am concerned for my constituents.

[Paul Szabo, Liberal, Mississauga South, ON]

Madam Speaker, I think we have established that the new approach of bringing bills to committee before second reading is extremely important.

To repeat the point, normally when we have bills the first thing that happens after they are printed is we have second reading debate. All parties have an opportunity to debate the bill and we then have a vote in principle. If it is passed in principle, it goes to committee. The committee then gets an opportunity to have witnesses and can make amendments, but the amendments have to be within the framework of the bill that was passed at second reading by the House. There are limits on what the committee can do.

By allowing a bill to go to committee after first reading, a committee virtually can rewrite the entire bill. One excellent example was Bill C-11 on the protection for whistleblowers. It took a long time for us to work on that. We took a bill that in fact I thought was on its deathbed, but after some very good work and excellent cooperation on the committee, as this committee had with its Bill C-37, the bill became one that everyone could get behind. We intend to work very hard to ensure that it fully achieves the objectives.

It was a good decision to refer it to committee. The committee should be commended for making the changes. I think all members would agree that they are constructive and productive amendments.

[Paul Szabo, Liberal, Mississauga South, ON]

Madam Speaker, I want to be on the record on this bill because it is a subject matter which has been a source of a lot of aggravation to many Canadians and I have certainly heard from many of my own constituents.

In listening to the debate, there seems to be some question about the bill not providing enough detail as to how this or that is going to work. Members will know that the bill was actually referred to committee after first reading. This is a very important new approach that the House has adopted which permits a bill to go straight to committee before we have had second reading debate and vote for approval in principle. Once we have the vote at second reading, the committee is restricted in the changes that it can make. It must deal within the approval of the principle. Therefore, it really takes the teeth out of the committee's ability to make a better bill.

First of all, it is important to recognize that it was better for the bill to go to committee after first reading in order to not include all of the wishes of those who may have crafted it but only provide the framework under which the bill should operate. This would allow the committee the greatest latitude to build the detail that is necessary and to rely on the development, drafting and promulgation of regulations, and subsequently, to fine tune the micromanagement of the operation and administration.

I tend to disagree with the argument of some members that the bill just does not describe how each and every thing is going to work, Frankly, it is not a criticism of the bill or of the government; it is a criticism of the committee. It is the committee that reviewed the bill and voted on it. The committee unanimously changed a number of aspects of the bill. It added some elements to make exemptions for charities, politicians, candidates, et cetera. It had the opportunity to change each and every clause, to add, delete and to do absolutely everything.

The committee brought this bill back to the House in its current form with a number of amendments to reflect what it felt was necessary to ensure that this bill could in fact be effective in terms of achieving this objective. I wanted to point out that it is not the drafters of the bill who present it in the House who did not do the job. If there are still changes to be made, we have ways to make those changes even yet. As members know, if they want to refer it back to committee as a motion at third reading, it can happen if they feel they really want to do that.

I am not a big fan of micromanaging bills. Obviously there has to be some latitude in the implementation and regulations. The reason we have regulations is to include the fine details. We have many bills that require regulations that have to be drafted, and in some cases reviewed by the standing committee before they are gazetted and promulgated.

We have this opportunity. Indeed, many bills actually state that the regulations must go to committee for comment and in some cases even approval. On top of that, as members well know, the bill also provides for a three year review. It is going to take some time to actually shake down the process. I suspect most members would concede that this is not going to be perfect by any means.

The important point is that there is a problem and the problem has to be addressed. I think members agree and that is why all parties appear to be supporting this bill because on balance it is in the best interests of Canadians.

There are people in my riding in the telemarketing business who told me about how important it was for their business. Yes, there are 270,000 people employed and yes, it is a $16 billion business, but there comes a point at which there must be some balance and order in this business as well.

I know the experience of some telemarketers. All they have to do is find one person out of a thousand to do business with for it to be cost effective. Imagine how many people have to be contacted, and in many cases disrupted, at probably the worst possible time. Being in political life, members will know that prime time for dinner is between 5:00 p.m. and 7:00 p.m. That is when these calls come in and everybody's phones rings. One member has said that the phone companies have call block. We cannot get that service without paying for it. Why should we have to pay for it? Caller ID is another service provided by the phone company. We cannot expect each and every Canadian to pay for this.

I understand telemarketing has been successful for many businesses, but it is not the only opportunity, certainly with regard to the consequences of making a thousand calls to make one sale. On top of that, how many times do we talk to people who have no idea to whom they are speaking, they mispronounce our names and then they start into some spiel which for a lot of people, who may be considered to be vulnerable or exposed, causes them some grief and consternation.

For instance seniors are often the victims of fraud. They are often the victims of those who would take advantage of their acceptance and trust in people. This is a very important aspect. However, it is not just seniors. It is others in our society who also are susceptible, those who cannot say no, those who do not know how delicately to get off the call. How about a mother who is upstairs nursing her baby, the phone rings and she runs to pick up the phone? Imagine how many people in Canada have been doing something that is important to their families. They are expecting a call or they do not receive many calls, so when the phone rings, they want to ensure they answer it on time. What they get when they answer is somebody wanting to know if they want to buy vacuum filters or something like that.

It is important that consumers have access to the opportunities to buy products. However, in the vast majority of cases when people need something, they know how to get it. They have the yellow pages. They know how to contact people. They receive an equal amount of other ad mail and flyers in virtually every newspaper, particularly the weekend newspaper. There is a standing joke in our house about how many trees were delivered to our house on Saturday morning, with the amount of papers we receive. It is absolutely ridiculous.

There are certain principles with which we have to deal. We have to be smart in our legislation. There comes a point where it is a critical threshold, it is a point at which the disruption to the many to the benefit of a few is way out of whack.

The bill is important. I think the members have conceded, from a macro standpoint, or from the view of the big picture, that we would have a registry on which people could put their names. It would tell that business to take their numbers off the list and not to call them ever again. It will take some work on behalf of the consumers to get their names on this, but it also is important that they have the opportunity to do so.

I understand that there may be some concern about the cost, the administration and operation. However, I think members are probably confident that there are good people within the CRTC or available to the CRTC to ensure that the do not call registry is implemented within a reasonable time, that it will be workable and that it will do the job it is intended to do.

I certainly will support Bill C-37.

[Dean Allison, Conservative, Niagara West—Glanbrook, ON]

Madam Speaker, I rise today to speak to the spirit of Bill C-37. This bill provides the framework for establishing a national do not call registry to protect Canadians from unsolicited and unwanted telemarketing calls.

The bill as originally presented was weak. It did not allow for those organizations such as charities, political parties and pre-existing customer relationships to continue. What it did was make it illegal for anyone to make an unsolicited telephone call to any individual whose name was included on the do not call registry.

Through the extensive efforts of many of my colleagues in the Conservative Party as well as those in the NDP, important amendments to the bill were made and adopted at committee. As a direct result of these amendments, I can now support the bill although I would say that I am cautiously optimistic.

It has become increasingly clear that Canadians want and indeed need a national do not call registry. Telemarketing is on the increase as more and more legitimate businesses are making use of the telephone as their primary source of reaching the consumer. Not only do Canadian consumers believe that this bill is necessary, so does the CMA.

The Canadian Marketing Association supports the bill and in fact has been lobbying for the creation of a national do not call registry since 2001. CMA president John Gustavson had this to say: “We believe a compulsory call service for all companies that use the telephone to market their goods and services to potential customers is the most effective means to curtail customer annoyance with telemarketers”.

There are many telemarketing analysts who do not agree with the need for a national do not call registry. They believe that the current rules are adequate in regulating telemarketers through voluntary or company specific do not call lists that have been in the industry standard form.

Some also believe that it removes a company's opportunity to reach a customer directly and therefore reduces the customer's knowledge of new products and services that could improve their lives. This argument does not hold water. Telemarketers who feel that their livelihood is being taken away from them are the ones who are generally working outside the system. In response, Mr. Gustavson said that such a service will help protect the viability of a marketing medium that employs over 270,000 Canadians and generates more than $16 billion in sales each year.

The bottom line is that Canadians are tired of being harassed and sometimes bullied by telemarketers. They are fed up with telemarketers being able to intrude on their lives, especially at home. Many of the interruptions usually come at a bad time and disrupt household and family routines. I am sure everyone here has experienced one of these calls personally. For example, we are just about to sit down for a nice dinner with the family after a long intense day at the office and the phone rings. There on the other end of the line is one of those pesky telemarketers who just will not take no for an answer. At the end of the call the telemarketer has us so frustrated that when we finally get off the phone our mood spills over to the family dinner and ruins the evening.

Many Canadians consider calls from telemarketing firms to be annoying and would prefer not to receive them at all. A recent poll conducted by Environics for Industry Canada cited that 97% of Canadians reported having negative reactions to telemarketing calls. The same poll indicated that 79% of people surveyed supported a national do not call directory, 66% of whom said they would sign up for the service.

A similar do not call registry was implemented in the United States in 2003 and has become very popular. Over 65 million people have registered thus far. As for whether the program is working or not, recent evidence shows it has been an overwhelming success. Many Americans who had received 30 or more telemarketing calls a month say the calls have dropped to less than five per month since they have registered. More than half of the people on the list say they do not receive any calls at all.

There is a greater importance to a national do not call registry than the ability to stop being annoyed by telemarketing calls.

The Canadian Association of Retired Persons has estimated that telemarketing investment schemes and fraud costs Canadians $3 billion per year. Seniors lose more than anyone else on a dollar per dollar basis. The organization PhoneBusters estimates that those over the age of 60 represent 56% of the total victims of telemarketing fraud with an average dollar loss of $12,000 per person.

Of all the victims of telemarketing fraud, seniors represent 85% of those who have lost more than $5,000. While telemarketing is a nuisance to some Canadians, unwanted telemarketing can be financially devastating to seniors.

Seniors make easy targets to telemarketing fraud because they often live alone and tend to have savings, assets or disposable income. Seniors are more trusting and are more likely to fall for a bogus sales pitch. Those seniors who have been scammed before usually do not report losing their money in fear of embarrassment. Telemarketing fraudsters know this and target them again and again. In fact their names and numbers are sold to other telemarketing fraudsters so they can also sucker them in to buying products and services they do not need and in many cases may not even receive.

Telemarketing con artists are experts at gaining the trust of seniors and making them feel as though they have their best interest in mind. Trusting seniors will give away personal information such as bank information, credit and debit card information, and before they know it their savings and investments could be cleaned out and they are left with nothing. They literally give away the house because the telemarketers convince them that this opportunity will help better their quality of life or they will help them and their families be financially independent for years to come.

I am sure all members of the House have heard the following story. An elderly woman living alone gets a call from a friendly telemarketer who takes the time to talk with her, not only about the product he or she is trying to sell but appears to genuinely care about her. After a few additional phone calls from the same telemarketer, the elderly woman decides to buy what the telemarketer is offering. She says she has spoken with this person a number of times, she does not consider the person a stranger and trusts giving her or him money.

Soon after the senior has handed over her entire life savings to this new phone friend, she realizes she has been scammed. This is about the time the telemarketing fraudster is enjoying the luxury vacation on a sunny south Pacific island.

Perhaps this is not the most common type of telemarketing activity, but it is a reality. I for one worry about the well-being of my parents and grandparents and other elderly relatives. I want them protected from these telemarketers. They have all worked hard throughout their lives to accumulate savings for their retirement and no one has the right to take that away from them. No one here wants to find out that their elderly parents, grandparents or relatives have lost their life savings because of some telemarketing scam. I am sure everyone here feels the same way.

The establishment of a national do not call list is long overdue in this country. Bill C-37 will assist in preventing telemarketing fraud.

Despite my support for the national do not call registry, I have a major cause for concern over the potential cost of the program. We all know what happened the last time the Liberal government created a national registry. The history of spending by the Liberal government can be described as nothing more than astonishing and incompetent as displayed by the national gun registry, the cost of which now is approaching $2 billion.

A national do not call registry could be effective and popular with Canadians. However, as the federal gun registry has shown, the government has an uncanny way of turning a modest project into a billion dollar fiasco. In other words, this project would be worthwhile but only if it is implemented properly and is cost effective. It must also include checks and balances in relation to monitoring its affordability and effectiveness.

I am pleased that we are considering a national do not call registry in Canada, but I would like to once again emphasize my concern regarding the cost and implementation.

I am not so sure that CRTC is the body to run it. The government has stated that if the bill is passed, the CRTC would embark on a series of consultations with industry and consumers to determine how best to implement the changes in the way in which telemarketing calls are regulated. What is not clear is how the list will operate, how much it will cost and whether telemarketing companies that break the rules be punished.

The current Telecommunications Act provides for the possibility of criminal prosecution for the contravention of a CRTC order with respect to telemarketing calls. Such prosecutions are rare and the CRTC itself lacks the power to impose fines.

The CRTC has become blind to increasingly rapid changes in the telecommunications industry, archaic in its approach to regulation, and unresponsive to the needs of Canadians. The role of database administrator as it relates to the national do no call registry will be new to the CRTC and arguably outside of its mandate.

For this reason, Parliament must have more details of how the CRTC plans to administer and regulate the do not call registry. The citizens of this country deserve to enjoy the privacy of their own homes and not to be disturbed by telemarketing rants. Most importantly, we need to protect our seniors from fraudulent telemarketing scams.

Finally, the question of implementation, administration and overall cost of the registry has to be addressed. We have seen that the Liberal government has a track record of foolishly spending taxpayers' money. Measures must be put in place to guarantee that this registry does not end up as an other Liberal spending spree. After all, nothing is scarier than seeing a Liberal hand sifting through our pockets.

[Marc Boulianne, Bloc, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

Madam Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to speak on this bill. I want to congratulate my colleague, the member for Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, for his excellent work not only on this issue but also as a member of the Standing Committee on Industry, Natural Resources, Science and Technology. Furthermore, I congratulate him on his recent appointment as vice-chair.

I want to come back to Bill C-37 to amend the Telecommunications Act, because it is very important. This enactment will allow the CRTC to regulate or prohibit certain telecommunications practices. The regulations must leave room for freedom of expression. In my opinion, this principle is clearly expressed in the bill and it must be respected. This bill will prohibit or regulate the use by any person of the telecommunications facilities of a Canadian carrier for the provision of unsolicited telecommunications. This is the fundamental principle and basis of the bill.

Quite often, there is a laissez faire approach to telemarketing. But this industry is extremely important to Canada and Quebec and has a large presence.

There is another interesting aspect to the bill: its penalties for the contravention of prohibitions or requirements of the CRTC. As far as sanctions are concerned, we are told that Canada is a paradise for telemarketing scams. Telemarketing is covered by section 380 of the Criminal Code, but Canadian law is far too easy on it. Criminals generally get off with a fine or a really light sentence. It is hard to convict someone of this offence at present in Canada. What is more, the majority of these criminals reoffend. So there is a problem.

The RCMP even tries to get offenders extradited to the United States where the law is far harsher. For example, there an individual found guilty of fraudulent telemarketing involving a person over the age of 55 years is liable to five years imprisonment. This bill must be more rigorous. Any bill, regardless of its topic, must include incentives, of course, but sanctions or penalties as well.

As we indicated in committee—and there was unanimity on this, moreover—the Bloc Québécois is in favour of Bill C-37 for a number of reasons. One of our primary concerns is consumer protection, which we feel is essential. There are other reasons. According to the statistics, the telemarketing industry employed some 270,000 people in the year 2000, and did $16 billion worth of business. It therefore has a considerable impact on communities, consumers and Canadians and Quebeckers in general. For a business of that size, there will be major consequences as soon as a bill is passed that sets out principles of use and penalties it will be subject to.

We held consultations leading up to this bill. It is essential because it meets a need the public has expressed. A recent Environics poll reported that 79% of respondents were in favour of a national do-not-call list. This is important. In reality, such a thing is already in existence. The public is prepared to punish wrongdoers and work to achieve a bill that sets out these principles. What is more, 66% of respondents indicated that they already subscribed to such a service.

When we inform and consult with the public before developing a bill like this, which received unanimous support in committee, we know that it will be helpful and useful to the public.

The Bloc Québécois is in favour and has also proposed some amendments. Nonetheless, the Bloc Québécois also has some reservations. First, we want the mechanisms for setting up the registry and the costs involved to be clearly defined. We remember the gun registry. What a waste by the Liberal government. At one point it was supposed to cost $2 million or $3 million and now the cost is in the billions of dollars. That registry was botched. A lot of money was spent.

We are mistrustful when it comes to the registry. We have to be. It is our responsibility to enquire about the basic principles that will govern this registry. It cannot be left once again to a party or a government that has partisan or election-minded intentions. That is the primary concern of the Bloc Québécois. We have to see this bill through with this primary consideration in mind.

There is s second concern, and the Bloc Québécois would like the registry to be managed by someone outside the marketing community and the Canadian market. That is essential. Too often, the people looking into situations are the same ones who created the situations. That is unacceptable, and we have to prevent these forces from systematically distorting the verification process. This will require structures and independent organizations to, again, check how the registry is managed.

I am coming back to this point and I insist on this feature of a registry. The past is often said to be an indication of what the future holds. As I said earlier, we have seen how a registry can be handled by this government.

Another element was viewed as very important by the Bloc Québécois, which has put forward amendments in this respect. We wanted exemptions considered necessary to be included. We cannot have blanket bills, always expecting them to apply systematically.

In a society like ours, flexibility and open-mindedness are in order. Some organizations may not be affected and, if they are, the impact of the bill must at least be mitigated. I am thinking of registered charities for example. While protecting freedom of expression, they have to be allowed to function well within the system.

Under this bill, every new measure that will be put in place is essentially designed to put tighter controls on the telemarketing industry in order to protect consumers. That is what this bill is all about. That is also what the Bloc Québécois has been fighting for. We must always have at heart the interest of Canadians, Quebeckers, and consumers. This bill is testimony to that.

An amendment was put forward in committee concerning a number of exemptions, which was unanimously approved. Unfortunately, we realized yesterday that it was out of order. We even sought the unanimous consent of the House for this amendment. To no avail, because of the Liberal Party's opposition. That is unfortunate because the committee was unanimous. The Bloc Québécois is, once again, seeking the unanimous consent of the House to approve this amendment. We are convinced that it will improve the bill.

Again, the Bloc Québécois believes that this is an important bill. It will protect consumers and improve telemarketing practices.

[Carol Skelton, Conservative, Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK]

Madam Speaker, today I rise to speak on Bill C-37, which is intended to create a national do not call registry.

Before I go further, I want to assure all members of the House that I have my home telephone publicly listed and I receive the same telephone calls that all my constituents do.

Canadians by the tens of thousands are interrupted every day by unsolicited telephone calls. I, too, share their feelings of intrusion, interruption and harassment. I have taken steps to inform my constituents of a national registry that already exists, but I am also quick to point out its shortcomings.

The Canadian Marketing Association will register a person for free on its DNC list. It can be done either through its website or by fax. Unfortunately, not all telemarketing companies are members of the Canadian Marketing Association, so we will not eliminate all calls if we register with the association.

The CRTC also requires that each company maintain its own DNC list, but we have to get at least one call first and the listing is only good for three years.

In my community brochures, I have provided a number of tips on how to handle unsolicited calls. I also provided information on how citizens can report fraud, scams and suspicions to the RCMP. At the end of that information, I asked four questions and obtained some interesting results.

We contacted and sent out brochures to 2,900 constituents. When I asked if they supported the concept of a national do not call list, 95% said yes and 5% said they were undecided. When I asked if the do not call lists should be maintained at taxpayers' expense by the government, 18% said yes, 65% said no and the other 18% were undecided. When I asked if they planned to add their names to the Canadian Marketing Association's DNC list, 68% said yes, 11% said no and 21% were undecided. Perhaps most interesting was when I asked if they were aware of the do not call list before receiving this brochure. A full 37% said yes, 58% said no, and 5% said they did not know.

The conclusion is that my constituents support such a list, but not with the government running it. This does not surprise me. The Liberal government's track record on national registries is abysmal. It has failed with the gun registry and also with the boat operators licensing registry.

I cannot blame my constituents for not wanting the Liberals to be in charge of another list. However, today we have Bill C-37 before us, which proposes to do just that. The bill is very sketchy on details and asks Parliament to grant the CRTC a great deal of power with minimal direction. This is a recipe for another failed registry.

The bill does not give any details on how the list will be maintained. While those who want their number on the list will be happy to have it there, it is likely they will remove that number if they change their phone number. Believe it or not, there are others who would be upset to find out that their new phone number was restricted when that was not their wish. Already the complexity of the list becomes apparent.

The bill raises a number of privacy concerns, as it fails to specify what information is required of consumers. I know that my constituents are very concerned about privacy issues and I am hesitant to support legislation that does not adequately address these issues. However, a number of amendments have been made and I will be supporting the legislation, as I believe it heads us in the right direction. Changes can be made.

I have some questions, though. How will telemarketers check this list? How much information would they have access to? How often would they be required to check the national list against their own? There are so many questions and, unfortunately, so few answers.

As we have seen in the national gun registry, reporting and accountability issues are rampant. On a DNC registry, who would provide the reporting? How timely would it be? How accurate would it be? Again, there are a lot of questions and no answers.

Perhaps one of the most interesting and debatable issues is that of exemptions. Clearly not all unsolicited calls can be classified as intrusive, hassles or frauds.

In addition, a number of organizations, from charitable, polling and survey firms to political organizations and candidates, make a valid case for exemption. Also, would such a list preclude companies from randomly contacting their customers without prior permission?

Who will decide on the exemptions? Under this bill, it will not be Parliament. I have a problem with that. Any restrictions to free speech require serious legal and political considerations.

According to the CRTC, the do not call list would be self-funding. Many question the CRTC's authority in handling the do not call list. Program funding would come from the fines imposed on those who fail to comply with the law.

In theory, if everyone follows the rules there will be no revenue from fines. I cannot believe the government wants to establish a funding mechanism based on the failure of Canadians to follow the law.

If the government has done studies to determine if we are delinquent enough to maintain funding for such a list, it should put them on the table. Or is the government really trying to tell us that such a list will be so ineffective that opportunities for fines will always exist?

Also, the CRTC is expecting to have very broad and far-reaching powers to create, maintain and enforce this list. Many say that the CRTC has demonstrated its inability to keep up with technology and the general wishes of Canadians.

Such a list was established in the United States with a great deal of fanfare. In fact, on its opening day, a whopping 1,000 website hits a second were received. I take it, then, that such a list is needed and wanted, but I truly question whether the government is capable of undertaking such a project.

As I stated earlier, 95% of my constituents who answered the questionnaire want such a list, but 65% of them do not want the government to run it. Carl S. of Saskatoon even suggested that telephone companies be responsible for maintaining such a list. Then, if a telemarketer failed to comply with the list, the phone company could charge the offending firm.

I will be supporting the bill only because I agree with the intent, not the method. If the Liberal government wants my full support, it would have to bring forward a detailed bill, not just the framework of one. In addition, it would need to justify why the government is the only one that can and should operate such a registry. This is a problem, created when one telephone customer irritates another.

Ironically, the phone companies have been largely silent in this regard. Perhaps it is because telemarketers are very profitable clients compared to individual subscribers. Perhaps it is because this causes many people to pay additional fees for phone features like caller ID, from which the phone company benefits financially.

I would like to see the government, before asking taxpayers to fund such a list, approach the phone companies for a solution first. I know that the phone companies already have the technology to block calls from one number to another. Why is this not the focus of our efforts?

Once again, I encourage the government not to abandon the issue but to instead come back to Parliament with a truly sustainable, detailed piece of legislation for us to debate and vote on.

Finally, I would like to thank all my constituents who participated in the survey. For the record, it was conducted by mail.

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I want to congratulate you on your great efficiency. Over the last while, routine proceedings have been dealt with very expeditiously.

I am extremely pleased to rise today to speak on Bill C-37, to amend the Telecommunications Act. This bill will ensure that the irritants associated with the system, because telephone solicitation calls have unfortunately become too frequent, are finally eliminated to a large extent. Such calls are intruding into the privacy of the home.

The bill before us today provides some protection for consumers and the general public. As we know, thanks to new technologies, we are bombarded night and day by solicitations. For example, a few weeks ago, someone called me at 8 a.m. I was told about an amazing new vacuum that I just had to try. Obviously, at 8 a.m. on a Saturday, there are better things to do than see how our vacuum cleaner compares to the one we are being asked to buy. It has become a kind of pollution. I believe that it is important for us, as legislators, to ensure privacy protection, because things have gone a bit too far.

Naturally, the Bloc will support Bill C-37. This bill contains provisions we like. We have looked at how this kind of system has worked elsewhere. The United States has the national do not call registry. This registry has allowed 62 million people, in a country with a population of 250 million, to say that they do not want to receive such calls. Companies must comply or pay significant fines.

People will say that this has resulted in another, related, problem. A number of these American companies relocated to Canada because things are more relaxed here. Now, we are going to set some restrictions and also be respectful to the general public.

However, there are some exemptions. Be it the vacuum cleaner I mentioned earlier, encyclopedias or cookware, people will have to comply and work within the legislation. However, there are some important exemptions, such as charitable organizations.

It is wise to state in the bill that such organizations are exempted. They will be allowed to phone people. The employees of charitable organizations have a certain amount of professionalism. I do not believe that they would call at 8 or 9 a.m. or very late at night. In fact, it would not be profitable for them to do so. If they did, they might offend whoever answers the phone at 9 a.m. In all likelihood, they would not raise much money for their charity that way. These people are professionals and therefore giving them this exemption is the right thing.

The same goes for business relationships. A pharmacist, for instance, cannot be prevented from calling a client to notify him or her that a prescription is ready to be picked up. This type of situation can justify a phone call at 8 or 9 in the morning. We agree that these are exceptions and the bill will not apply to them.

The same also goes for political calls, which are important, after all. Politics are the heart and soul of a society. The legislators are the ones who make final decisions on numerous subjects, including this one. It is very important for another exception to be made so that political parties can make phone calls. There would be reasonable rules on this. No one will solicit votes at 8 am or midnight. I therefore think this exception is a proper one.

As for opinion polls, it is a matter of the right to information. People are entitled to know what the standing of the political parties is, in the country as a whole or in specific provinces. This exception is important for us.

There is one regrettable point, however. There was consensus in the committee for another sector to be added to the exceptions: newspapers.

This can include the national papers as well as the local papers. It is very important for them to be able to conduct some form of solicitation. Unfortunately, even though the committee was in favour, this seems to have slipped through the cracks and disappeared.

Mr. Speaker, I regret to point out that you made a slight error. We asked for this to be included as an exception. Unfortunately, you turned down this request. Yesterday, we sought unanimous consent of the House. I was there. I do not understand why the Liberals refused, when they were in favour of this in committee. Why do they want to prevent our local papers, or the national papers, from soliciting subscriptions?

Earlier it was even said that political parties were an exception to the legislation, so why would newspapers not be as well? What they do is just as important as what legislators do. We thought it a shame that the Liberal Party did not give its consent yesterday to include newspapers in the exceptions.

Furthermore, in the bill, we like the fact that a three-year period will apply. This is part of a new section of the legislation. We will have to see what impact this will have on consumers and on marketing companies. By the way, marketing companies are in favour of this bill. These companies have already said that people who want to be excluded, who say they do not want to be solicited, refused to answer them anyway. Accordingly, the Canadian Marketing Association, or CMA, said it would give the bill its blessing.

The three-year period will apply. When the bill receives royal assent, a period of three years will apply, after which Parliament could re-evaluate the entire scope of this section of the legislation. We think this is a reasonable timeframe that will ensure everyone is protected and the bill can truly meet its objectives.

There are some gaping holes in this bill. We have been told, unfortunately, that telemarketing fraud could not be included. The typical psychological profile of the people who fall victim to this is as follows. They are often people who live alone and are around 70 years of age and their money is literally extorted from them. We were told that to deal with this, amendments would have to be made to the Criminal Code.

Still it is a shame to see this going on. People report for work in some little hidden away spot, known as a boiler room, and start making calls. These people are often paid according to how successful they are. For example, they get 40% of what they take in.

Unfortunately, people can make a fortune extorting money from this kind of client. In their view, it is paradise here. The legislation in the United States imposes heavy penalties on these people. They are sentenced to prison and given heavy fines. The result is that people who want to engage in this kind of extortion, from these boiler rooms, come to Canada and make their calls to the United States from here. At the same time, of course, they swindle Canadians and Quebeckers as well.

It is too bad that this is not covered by the bill. I know that my hon. colleague, who sits on the Standing Committee on Industry, Natural Resources, Science and Technology, wants to meet with my hon. colleague from justice to try to correct this defect.

Nevertheless, taking the bill as a whole, the Bloc members are pleased with it. It is time that the private lives of Canadians were protected. People never have enough time nowadays, and they have less and less for their families, for example. This time should be protected. We should make sure that people can enjoy breakfast with their families on Saturday morning without being disturbed by three, four or five phone calls trying to sell them all sorts of things or soliciting them about everything under the sun.

I take great pleasure therefore in saying that I support Bill C-37. I think that my colleagues in the Bloc Québécois will be in favour of the Bloc's position, which is to amend the telecommunications bill in order to do something about the inappropriate solicitation problem.