Bill C-26 (Historical)

An Act to amend the Criminal Code (criminal interest rate)

This enactment amends the Criminal Code by exempting persons from the application of section 347 of that Act in respect of agreements for small, short-term loans. The exemption applies to persons who are licensed or otherwise authorized to enter into such agreements by designated provinces that have legislative measures that protect recipients of payday loans and that specify a limit on the total cost of those loans.

Criminal Code

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to speak to Bill C-26, an act to amend the Criminal Code (criminal interest rate).

The bill was reported back to the House from committee on December 13. It very seldom happens that a bill is reported back without amendments. That shows what can happen when there is strong cooperation between the parties. Actually this is one of six bills the official opposition has called upon the government to work with all parties to pass as soon as possible.

We believe with just a little more cooperation, especially from the government, that in addition to Bill C-26, the following bills could be reported back to the House: Bill C-9, which would restrict the use of conditional sentences; Bill C-18, which would strengthen the DNA data bank; Bill C-19, which would amend the Criminal Code on street racing; Bill C-23, which would amend the Criminal Code and criminal procedure in languages of the accused and sentencing, in other words, update Canada's Criminal Code; and Bill C-22, which would amend the Criminal Code with respect to age of protection, with the importance of protecting children. We believe with a little more cooperation from the government, we could in fact be getting those six bills approved in the House.

In summary, Bill C-26 amends the Criminal Code of Canada to exempt payday lenders who operate in provinces and territories having measures in place to protect borrowers from the application of section 347 of the Criminal Code of Canada, and require jurisdictions that regulate the industry to place limits on the cost to consumers of payday borrowing.

To a great extent a lot of work was done on this bill by previous ministers of industry and justice. A lot of work has gone on with the provinces and territories to get the kind of collaboration needed to put forward this bill in the House of Commons. I congratulate all the folks, including members of the government, who were involved in those discussions to get us where we are at today.

There is certainly a need to ensure consumers that usury interest rates are not allowed in this country. There is no question that there is a lot of authority in the Criminal Code of Canada under section 347 to lay criminal charges for usurious interest rates. Section 347 makes it a criminal offence to charge more than 60% per annum.

As we all know, some payday loan companies have charged far in excess of that rate. In fact, we have heard of outrageous interest charges, when compounded and fees are added, in excess of 1,200% per annum, yet no charges under section 347 to payday loan companies have been made.

Yes, the concern is there, but the payday loan business is a little more complicated jurisdictionally, and I would say on an individual need basis, more than meets the eye. Jurisdictionally payday loan operations are considered to be commercial businesses. They are not banks, although I think many people believe they are. As commercial businesses, to a great extent they fall under provincial jurisdiction.

My colleague, the MP for Scarborough—Rouge River, explained it. I want to quote from his remarks in the House because he gave best explanation on this point:

We are going to keep a Criminal Code provision, but we are going to allow an exemption for a lawful business that lends money using this payday loan mechanism. The exemption will be based on the premise that a province or a territory is regulating the commercial operation.

He went on to say:

Placing this amendment with section 347, will allow the provinces to assume their proper jurisdiction in the regulation of the commercial affairs of their citizens. However, at the same time, we maintain the criminal prohibition with the 60% per annum cap where there is no provincial regulation. We are assuming that a province will provide a form of regulation that will essentially keep the same level of protection the consumers have had up to now.

It is important to mention that because it explains the jurisdictional problem and the difference between the commercialization as a business.

Therefore, the bill does cover off the jurisdictional question under clause 2 by the person being licensed by the province to enter into the agreement, and second, the province has been designated by the governor in council or cabinet under the proposed new section 347.1.3.

On an individual need basis, it is obvious from the demand for transactions, estimated to be $1.3 billion or more, and in fact the parliamentary secretary said it is as high as $2 billion now, and also the increase of payday loan companies that are estimated to be over 1,300. It is obvious from these shocking figures that individual Canadians have an urgent need for short term cash for whatever reason.

Yes, I recognize the amounts are in the low hundreds of dollars, but the cost, as others have said before me, are very high.

Mr. Jenkin with the Department of Industry, who was a witness before committee, indicated:

It's a form of short-term lending through which the consumer typically borrows several hundred dollars for 10 days to two weeks. The borrowing costs are very high, as you probably know. They are usually in the range of, for example, $40 to $75 for a $300 loan for two weeks or less.

I must emphasize that while I support the bill as a way to improve the situation for people who are in need of immediate cash, I still am worried about the impact of the financial strain on individuals. There is no question in my mind that the individuals who are basically forced to use these services are the ones who can least afford to pay these high fees. Maybe they need the dollars to provide food, buy groceries for the family. Maybe they need the dollars for a medical bill or maybe they even need the dollars to pay the minimum payment on a high interest bearing credit card.

Whatever the reason, there is clearly a problem out there that needs to be addressed beyond this bill. I certainly would advise the government and others that we really need to be doing as a country, both at the provincial and federal level, some research into the social or economic reason why people think they are forced to go to these services for those kinds of money. They are the people who can least afford it and I believe that needs to be looks into and addressed.

The bottom line is that we are in favour of this bill. We do believe it is a step in the right direction However, there are other underlying causes that we need to recognize are out there in a social and economic sense and issues that really affect people in their daily lives that forces them to use these services. That is the worrisome point.

The bill is good but I believe the House and the government need to look at the underlying causes of the need to use these services more so.

[Paul Crête, Bloc, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I was very interested in what my colleague said in his speech, particularly in the fact that he said there will have to be further complementary studies not only to address the disciplinary aspect of this issue, but also to identify the causes and implement the most appropriate measures.

That is why I would invite him—as well as provincial government representatives—to learn more from the Government of Quebec about the current practice that the Office de la protection du consommateur has overseen for almost 20 years, a practice that limits payday loan interest rates to about 35% in Quebec and that has helped curb development in the payday loan sector. This may also be due in part to the fact that the Desjardins group has a particular interest as a lender, as a cooperative lending institution, in ensuring that its members receive the best possible service. In any case, these measures have worked together to prevent the problem from emerging in Quebec as it has done in the rest of Canada.

In light of this visit, this experience, this exchange, the federal government should recognize that Quebec has developed this approach within its jurisdiction. Furthermore, it should simply make note of the results and accept that there is already legislation in place in Quebec. A letter from Quebec's minister of Justice to the federal Minister of Justice explaining that Quebec has a law that meets this goal and that, as such, he considers the requirement fulfilled should suffice. There should be no need to subject a province to an assessment in an area that is already under its jurisdiction.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

Mr. Speaker, I do not think there is any concrete evidence to prove the point that the job is being handled well in Quebec. We know they are not being used as much in Quebec but we do not know the underlying reasons for that. It would require a lot more research than the typical Bloc Québécois approach, which is that it is basically due to the issues as they exist in that province. Some national research needs to be done in that area and that can be done with this bill in place. With some provincial jurisdictions operating a little differently than others, there would be the foundation to do that research in the future to get concrete results.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I wonder if my colleague from Malpeque would agree that the reason these payday loan outfits have popped up like mushrooms in virtually every town and community in the country is that the banks have abandoned many places. We have had 15 branch closures just in my riding of Winnipeg Centre in the last five years. In their place, these payday loan ripoff outfits, and I do not hesitate to call them that, have popped up to provide for the basic needs of people who might need financial services.

Would he not agree that while we are trying to regulate and rein in these payday loan outfits, we should also be reminding the banks of their obligations under their charters to provide basic services for Canadians? For instance, under the Bank Act the banks must allow somebody to open a bank account even if that person has no money. Maybe these people would not need to go to a payday loan outfit if the bank had a branch somewhere within miles of where these people live and allow people to open a bank account so they can cash their cheques without paying 3% or 5%. Would he not agree that we need to get after the big banks to live up to their obligations at the same time as we are trying to rein in these ripoff payday loan outfits?

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

Mr. Speaker, it is not only in downtown Winnipeg where banks have withdrawn services and centralized their banking operations. I have had the opportunity to travel a lot in rural Canada and I have seen a lot of that happening there as well.

I actually think it could be a factor because people do need to go somewhere to cash their cheques. At one time banks were a very important part of many rural communities. They have withdrawn their services at a time when we see their profits going through the roof. They not only charge high enough interest rates but their fees are absolutely ridiculous. I do not think many Canadians recognize how much the fees stacked on top of fees have escalated within the banking sector.

I see the parliamentary secretary to the Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food over there. If the government continues it moves on the Canadian Wheat Board, we may see farmers themselves using payday loans. The government is withdrawing dollars right out of farmers' pockets with its attack on and undermining of the Canadian Wheat Board.

[Paul Crête, Bloc, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Mr. Speaker, today I rise to speak to Bill C-26. After examining this bill in the parliamentary committee, I thought that it would be very favourably received since the Government of Quebec has had legislation for the last two decades that manages the payday loans issue through the Office de la protection du consommateur.

Quebeckers who are listening to the debate today must be wondering why this question has still not been resolved. They must be asking themselves, "Is there not legislation under which this issue could be dealt with?" The answer is no. In the rest of Canada, that is not the case.

I saw this in committee. The representatives of the three federalist parties joined together and systematically, and very firmly, opposed a slight amendment being made to provide that in the event that a province—such as Quebec—already had a law that addressed this issue adequately, no in-depth study would be done. The jurisdiction of the province would be respected. The provincial authorities have decided that this is the right approach. At that point, notice would simply be taken that the law and the mechanics were already in place. That is the law that would prevail.

The payday loans question is important because it often affects people with very low incomes or people who suddenly need financial loans. In the rest of Canada, a flourishing industry has developed that engages in all sorts of conduct. Some work according to all the rules, others less so. I perfectly understand that there would be a desire to deal with this issue. The Bloc has never objected to this kind of legislation being applied in the provinces where there is not already legislation in this area and where the provinces decide to apply it.

Our opposition to the bill arises out of the fact that there is already a law in Quebec. My colleague said earlier that he had a problem with the Bloc's approach and that he needed proof. This is not the Bloc's approach; it is Quebec's approach.

The present federalist liberal government in Quebec City is of the same view as the Bloc on this point. We have checked with the office of the minister. The office of the minister wanted Quebec to be able to say, by giving notice to the federal government, “We already have legislation that deals with the question of payday loans, and accordingly it is that legislation that will apply in Quebec.”

In actual fact, though, this is not the answer we received. The provincial government will have to submit its legislation to the federal government. There will be studies of the appropriateness of the bill and how we are dealing with this problem. Then it will be referred to the Governor in Council. It is quite a production.

Although this is a provincial jurisdiction, that is to say, an area that is Quebec’s responsibility, and although Quebec has had 20 years of experience and there are no problems with the application of the law, we still have to go and seek the blessing of our big brother in Ottawa.

It is totally incomprehensible that a Conservative government like this one, which claimed that it would show more respect for areas of provincial jurisdiction, would act in this way. There is even talk of a bill to provide a framework for the federal government’s spending power.

They say that Quebec is a nation. The Prime Minister himself introduced a motion in the House to this effect. But at the first opportunity, when they finally have a chance to show they are going to do things differently, the bulldozer is there ready to go. The steamroller is right there. They are going to standardize everything all across Canada.

The provinces will all be required to justify their legislation. Even 20 years of experience in this area does not matter. According to the federal government, that is not how these issues can be resolved.

It is important to know that under the practices developed in Quebec over the years, the maximum currently acceptable rate is 35%. That is very different from what is seen in the rest of Canada. Thanks to the Office de la protection du consommateur, the various roles are well defined and understood. We do not have any problems with this industry. To the extent that it exists, particular practices have been accepted and excesses are prohibited. Quebeckers are legally entitled to a maximum rate of about 35%.

People who want to make a pile of money in a hurry on the backs of those who are not very well off financially by providing these kinds of services have less incentive to try to do so.

The Criminal Code refers to a rate of 60%. Now, the government wants each province to pass legislation in this area if it sees fit, whereas Quebec has already done so.

The bill states that the federal government will designate provinces. It is therefore giving itself the right to veto the measures taken by a province that requests an exemption. A province cannot just send a letter to say that it already has legislation in place. A province that has legislation like what Quebec has had for 20 years must come, hat in hand, and ask for an exemption from a government that has been unable to solve this problem for 25 years. It is like saying, “We have a law. Will you let us enforce it?” This is typical of the federal government, especially senior bureaucrats, who want to have “One Canada, One Nation“ here in Ottawa.

The reality is quite a different matter. Obviously, jurisdictional legislation will not change the world, but this is an example of a situation where, in a year when the federal government recognized Quebec as a nation, it is also telling Quebec: “You are a nation, but when it comes to payday loans, we do not recognize what you are doing and we want the right to give our OK”. This is the federal government's double standard.

In its policy statements and in its day-to-day behaviour, the government is taking the old approach that Quebeckers have often criticized. We hope that payday loans can continue to be dealt with the way they have been by the Government of Quebec and that the federal government will end up giving its blessing very quickly. The fact remains that this is written in law. This is something that is inconsistent with sharing jurisdictions and does not respect the expertise developed over the years.

There is no doubt that in the rest of Canada it is important to have a way to deal with this situation. We know this by the letters received from people who tell us about what is going on in the rest of Canada. There truly are behaviours that need to be brought into line. There needs to be a framework. Quebec has had this framework for 20 years now. If the provinces want to see how it works, they can contact the Government of Quebec to see the method that was developed. If they want to use it, all the better. If they decide to do something else, that is their choice. There is no problem. We will respect their jurisdictions.

The position the Bloc Québécois is defending today is not one of “sovereignists”, it is the position of the Government of Quebec, the current federalist government and the previous governments of Quebec. It is governments and people who have witnessed the role of the Office de la protection du consommateur. These are people who represented very different opinions on a national level, people such as Ms. Bacon, who is in the other place, and Ms. Payette, who was a Quebec minister for the Parti Québécois. She brought about some significant changes in our society and continues to do so today through her writings. These were people with very different opinions, but they had a frame of reference at the Office de la protection du consommateur, which is an example and a very interesting model. Today, Quebec is getting a rather discouraging message from the federal government.

I was even more surprised by the attitude in committee. Tomorrow in the Committee on Industry, a report will be tabled on the manufacturing sector and, without revealing the content of the report, it will be quite unequivocal about the action that should be taken in this sector.

Now, when a question of jurisdiction arises and a tiny change is needed in our legislation to ensure that Quebec's areas of jurisdiction are being respected, the three federalist parties rise to say: “No, we cannot spend time on a small amendment. There is no satisfying Quebec on this. Quebec must conform to the same requirements as the others”. This is an example of what we have seen in the past, and there are many such examples. We did not think we would see it again here today in a bill such as the one now before us.

With respect to the payday loan industry, we are told that it arose in Canada mainly in the early 1990s. I believe the Office de la protection du consommateur was already regulating the loan sector to some extent. This is likely why Quebec did not experience any serious abuses in this industry.

Jurisdiction is shared to a certain degree, since Quebec and the provinces have responsibility for local trade and commerce and civil law. There is also shared jurisdiction over contracts and consumer protection.

The federal government estimates that this industry now comprises more than 1,300 points of sale. Their distribution is very uneven and Quebec has very few such businesses. In practice, anyone in Quebec who is listening to this debate likely believes that this issue has already been resolved and must be wondering why a new bill has been introduced on this topic. I would like to explain to them that the industry grew at very different rates in Quebec and in Canada.

Little is heard about this issue in Quebec, because it has been resolved for several years now, in fact, for decades. The new situation in the rest of Canada must be corrected. We agree with the substance of this bill. However, when it comes to respecting jurisdictions, the bill does not in any way meet Quebec's requirements.

When I was working in committee on this issue, thanks to the marvels of modern communication technology, I received notices from the Government of Quebec, calling for a debate to pass the proposed amendment.

Meanwhile, members of the various parties said that it was not an important issue. The deputy minister of the department, the senior public servant, had just told us that this would not have any implications for Quebec and that it was wrong to believe that federal approval would be required. Just then, I received a cabinet memo from the Quebec Minister of Justice on my Blackberry stating the exact opposite.

Such a striking example shows us that there are still too many things to be changed in this system for there to be true respect. If there is no respect for our jurisdiction in matters such as this one, which is very important, imagine what will happen with even more significant issues.

Individuals are forced to borrow money against their wages and have to deal with people who charge ridiculous rates. There must be oversight in this area.

On this matter I agree with my Liberal colleague from Prince Edward Island who spoke earlier. We must also examine the overall implications and what must be done. It is not true that the issue will be resolved by a mere rap on the knuckles of those who do wrong. An enforcement component must be put in place. However, there is also the question of the environment in which people work, as well as what is required of banking institutions.

My NDP colleague was saying that the banks have not done their job. I think there is some truth to that. In Quebec, we have the Desjardins movement. In recent years, profitability has been a major consideration, but it has nonetheless developed a means of helping individuals who are having a little more difficulty. This has prevented an unhealthy industry from emerging.

In my riding, credit unions have a special committee that looks at such issues when it is urgent. This has led to a more humane approach to these situations. This is what will have to be put in place by the provinces that need to develop legislation. With the bill before us, they will require federal government approval when they table their legislation. Perhaps this does not bother the other provinces and they agree with this way of doing things.

The government should have respected the fact that each province moves at its own pace. If the government truly respected jurisdiction in this matter, this bill would have contained an amendment making it possible for us to adopt it immediately. I sent amendments to each member of the committee. Making them would have indicated a change in attitude on the government's part toward recognizing Quebec's expertise in this matter, which is not currently the case. At the same time, the legislation would have been adopted faster so that the situation could be addressed appropriately in all Canadian provinces.

In light of these factors, I believe you will understand why the Bloc Québécois cannot vote for this bill in its current form: it does not respect Quebec's jurisdiction. There is still time for the federal government to amend the bill. We can easily reach a compromise. I would ask the government to check its source within the Quebec government because that government's position on this issue is the same as the Bloc Québécois'. The bill would be much more acceptable if it were amended to take into account Quebec's expertise and to respect its jurisdiction. It that were to happen, we would have the opportunity to adopt a functional bill as soon as possible, one that respects provincial jurisdiction and Quebec's jurisdiction in this matter and that recognizes the expertise we have developed.

Today, a quick look at every province reveals that there is one province where payday lending is not a problem: Quebec. The other provinces have a serious problem. That is clear from the members' eagerness to pass this bill even if it means encroaching on Quebec's jurisdiction in committee.

Today's debate in this House will make the public aware of this situation. Quebec is being treated like a child with respect to this practice. Quebec has the expertise, the jurisdiction and the power to implement its legislation, but the federal government is imposing its own way of dealing with the payday loan issue.

I hope that the members of this House will pay attention to what we are saying. I will be available to answer any questions and address any comments from colleagues who are not members of the committee but who would like to have a say in this matter.

The House resumed consideration of the motion that Bill C-26, An Act to amend the Criminal Code (criminal interest rate), be read the third time and passed.

[Judy Wasylycia-Leis, NDP, Winnipeg North, MB]

Mr. Speaker, this is a day to celebrate. We have reached the end of a long hard process to get some justice in the area of fringe financial services. Today, we are debating the final stage of a bill that will bring us closer to moment when payday lenders are regulated across the country.

Getting here was no easy feat, but it happened after a great deal of work on the part of members of the House. It happened after enormous pressure from community groups across the country. It happened because we found a way to cooperate when push came to shove. I think that tells Canadians everything they need to know on how to make Parliament work, especially in a minority situation.

Here we are today with Bill C-26, at its final stage, that will give provinces a mechanism, a means by which they can regulate payday lenders without leaving it up to a system that has largely failed Canadians over the last decade or more.

With the bill, we have an ability to set aside the Criminal Code pertaining to what is an acceptable rate of interest, that being 60%, so provinces can put in place a regulatory framework to put an end to usurious rates and to lending practices that take advantage of the most vulnerable in our society.

This has come after considerable debate in the House and at the industry committee. General approval and support for the idea has come from all sides, except for the Bloc. Most of us are still trying to figure out the position of the Bloc on this important issue. We know the province of Quebec has a system that works, a system that deals with this matter on the basis of consumer protection. Members of the Bloc feel that the province of Quebec has dealt with the problem of those who prey on individuals through payday lending operations.

Therefore, the question for the House has to be this. Why can we not simply agree among ourselves to get this passed so that all provinces can have some way to protect consumers in the most expeditious way possible? To this day, we are still trying to understand why the Bloc chose to use some methods at committee and in the House to hold up the bill when, at the outset, there was almost unanimous support to have the bill, which is a one paragraph, proceed through all stages as quickly as possible so provinces, waiting with legislation, could do so.

In terms of the Quebec situation, we cannot figure out the reasons for the obstruction from the Bloc members, especially in the context of the Quebec media. Just in the last week or so, when my leader and our caucus spoke out vehemently against the use by banks of what we would consider exorbitant fees at ATM machines, the Quebec media responded and said that it was a silly issue. Le Droit suggested that there were things far worse than ATMs. I will read from Le Droit of January 30 of this year. It says:

Come to think of it, there are things worse than the fees charged for using ATMs...

The article goes on to say:

If he had really wanted to do something for the poor in Canada, the member for Toronto—Danforth would have targeted the some 1,300 financial service outlets such as Money Mart—the payday lenders—that lend small amounts of money to some two million Canadians annually, at such high rates that they are currently being sued in a class action in Ontario.

We have taken both issues very seriously. Obviously we feel there is a real need, and Canadians agree, to put some limits on the fees that banks can charge for accessing one's own money. We have spoken out about the exorbitant fees that Canadians are charged and we have asked the government to consider putting a lid on those charges or, in fact, to eliminate the charges we face to access our own money.

At the same, we have been fighting for years on the question of money marts, rent to owns, payday lenders and all fringe financial institutions. This has been a driving force of members in my caucus over the last four or five years.

I can go back to when we first started raising this years ago. We put forward motion after motion, asking the government to start to take action against payday lenders and those who preyed on people when they were most vulnerable. We worked long and hard to try to get the former government to recognize the need to take action.

I wrote to then minister of finance, now the House leader for the Liberal Party, to ask him to do what Manitoba and other provinces wanted, which was to have provisions to set aside the Criminal Code so provinces could finally take action to put a lid on these usurious fees and to try to deal with the vulnerabilities that people faced as a result of this explosion of alternative financial centres or alternative fringe financial centres in the absence of bank presence. We did not get very far with the previous government.

When the new government came in, we began the process all over again. It took a considerable period of time, but we finally are at the point where we have cooperated, one another in the House. We have developed legislation that would allow the job to be done. Is that not what matters? In the end it is not the politics and the games about how one can hold up the House for other purposes and who initiated what and how it came to be. It is about trying to get something done for Canadians.

This is an example of where the House is making a very significant initiative on the part of Canadians, many of whom are forced to deal with payday lenders and other fringe financial services.

I do not need to go over the statistics, we have had many of these during these debates. We know that just in a decade we have gone from zero payday lenders to over 1,300. We know the stories of people who have lost their life savings. They were in this vicious cycle of going to payday lenders, being taken advantage of and being trapped for the rest of their lives. Story after story portrays this tangled web of payday loans.

I will read one example that came from a number of years ago, back in 2004. It was reported by the Toronto Star. The article begins by saying, “Quick cash, creeping risk 'Pride was what I left behind'”. It says:

Kim Elliott's Friday payday loan ritual that began as soon as her 12-year-old son was off to school.

First stop was the bank to withdraw $700 from the freshly deposited $900 paycheque from her job as a front desk manager at a Windsor hotel.

A short drive away, $650 went to pay off a loan at Stop 'N' Cash, a payday lending store that offers high-interest, short-term loans. As soon as the teller had the cash in her hands, Elliott took out another loan, this time to pay off the interest on a loan at Cash Money, another payday loan store. The transaction was the same there—pay down, loan again, drive to the next lender.

Three hours and three to our loans later, the paycheque was gone. Elliott would then take out about $350 in her final loan of the day, this one to have money to get through the next two weeks.

Does that not say why this day is so important and why Bill C-26 has to be passed as quickly as possible?

It is especially relevant in areas where the banks have abandoned entire communities. Whether one is looking at the question of ATMs or the issue of money marts and payday lenders, the root of the problem is the same: big banks have abandoned communities.

For the purpose of the House's understanding of the issue, I will once again describe what happened in Winnipeg North, my constituency. In the old Winnipeg north end, over a period of half a dozen years, all bank branches closed their doors and left that entire community without access to bank branches.

Yes, there are outlying branches, but we are talking about a community that has a high proportion of senior citizens, a very high level of low income earners, many people with disabilities, people who do not have access to cars or family members to drive them or access to computers and sometimes even telephones to do their banking. What do they do? In the case of trying to get cash, they have to go to a private white label ATM machine and they get charged up to $6 to access maybe $20 or $30, whatever they can afford to take out of their accounts.

People in organizations, like the Bankers Association, and perhaps even some members in this place have suggested that the NDP is ridiculous for raising the question of ATMs and fees. When there is a situation like that, we are not talking about convenience. We are not talking about affluent people who should know better in terms of how much money they take out at one time. We are talking about people who do not have any other choice.

The same holds true when it comes to fringe financial services. The same holds true when it comes to payday lenders. When the banks left, they created prime conditions for money marts, rent to owns and payday lenders. Every aspect of the fringe financial service popped up. It took up the space and filled the vacuum.

People went to those places because they did not have any other choice. There was no place to do their banking. There was no place to access some short term cash without going to a place that charged exorbitant interest rates and all kinds of fees and additional arrangements on top of the 60% interest rate that is criminal.

Something had to be done. We needed a way to get this into the hands of consumer protection departments at the provincial level so regulatory schemes could be put in place to arrive at what would be a reasonable interest rate for these kinds of lending situations. That is exactly what this legislation aims to do and what provinces like Manitoba, which has been the pioneer in this field, aim to do. It is about putting in place a mechanism so one can assess what makes sense in terms of an interest rate.

No one is saying that we cannot look at this in terms of risk and not charge interest. We are talking about short term loans where there is some risk, so there has to be an interest rate structure that is reasonable and allows for people not to lose the shirts off their backs.

However, in that context, why should we allow people to charge a 1000% or $2000% interest rate? Is there not a limit? Is there not something government can do? Is this not the best way to do it, given the fact that we could not over the last number of years get the provinces to agree on one standard? We could not get the federal government to pull those ministers from the provincial and territorial governments together to arrive at one standard. It dragged on for too long, to the point where the provincial NDP government in Manitoba finally brought in legislation of its own that then began this ripple effect where other provinces followed suit.

As we speak today, the Manitoba NDP government and the New Brunswick government have legislation ready to go the minute Bill C-26 is receives royal assent. They are waiting desperately for immediate action by the House. I hope we can get there very quickly, finish this debate, have the vote, get it to the Senate and get it back here, with royal assent.

In the face of banks leaving communities like Winnipeg North, the community had to take charge of the situation. People in Manitoba and in my own community of Winnipeg North finally said that they had been hurt by the banks too many times. They could not seem to hold the banks to account. They could not make the banks come to them with their statements before they shut the doors. They could not seem to convince the banks that there was some merit in having access to personalized banking services in every community across the country.

After 10 bank closures and after trying everything possible, people in the community basically said that they were going to take matters into their own hands and work with the folks who really care about the community to make a difference. That is what happened. It was not necessarily with great help from government, although there was some financial support of course. It was not with the help of any of the banks, although the last bank to close its doors in Winnipeg did give some money for a pilot project to study an alternative financial community services arrangement. That bank did give its building to the community for $1. That has made a difference and we thank the CIBC for that, but the CIBC left a whole community. It abandoned a whole area. Small businesses, local community activists, organizations, many seniors and hard-working families were suddenly left without anything. I think the CIBC actually owed it to the community to do that.

I hope other banks who abandon us will look at that as an example of their responsibilities. I hope they will consider doing so before we have to go to the next step which is to try to bring in what is so workable in the United States, a community reinvestment act which forces banks to carry out their responsibilities to the community and to give something back for the loyalty of consumers over those years. Rather than go that route, I hope banks will start to realize that they have a responsibility to Canadians, to the consumers and clients who built up those banks over the years and made such huge profits for them that the banks owe something to those communities.

Today we have a chance to make up for the downfall, for the failings of a banking system that has ignored consumer concerns. Today we have an opportunity to protect consumers from exorbitant interest rates. Today we have a chance to say to communities that we believe that a community needs to have a say in its own destiny.

The whole origin of the project in Bill C-26 came not from government, although the Manitoba NDP government was vital and central to the whole evolution of this wonderful legislation, but it came from the community. It came from organizations that felt the impact of the banks abandoning them. It came from community activists and research groups who well documented every step of the way what was happening to our community. It is only right that we pay tribute to those studies which documented this problem.

I refer to the work of Jerry Buckland, who is with the Winnipeg Inner-City Research Alliance, and to Nancy Barbour, who came out of the community and worked on this research, who has since passed away, and to whom we owe a great debt of gratitude. They did the study, “The Rise of Fringe Financial Services in Winnipeg's North End”. They put together detailed studies on fringe banking in Winnipeg's North End. Going back to September 2005 there is the paper, “There Are No Banks Here” regarding financial and insurance exclusion in Winnipeg's north end.

The situation in Winnipeg's north end is not peculiar. Many older neighbourhoods, inner city communities and rural communities have gone through the same phenomenon where banks have abandoned the communities and gone to where they say it is more profitable. The banks have left people at the whim of payday lenders and to pay exorbitant fees at ATM machines.

Today we are taking a step to correct this. Today we are actually making a difference in terms of the lives of Canadians. I urge all members of Parliament from all sides and all walks of life to support this bill. Let us get it through the House as quickly as possible so that it can receive royal assent. Let us put into place legislation that makes a real difference for ordinary families.

[Yvon Lévesque, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Mr. Speaker, with all due respect to the hon. member for Winnipeg North, I wish to remind her that she is well aware of what is preventing Bloc Québécois members from supporting this bill. It is because the Quebec legislation is far better.

I remind hon. members that it is now my turn to speak and they should listen.

I also want to stress the centralizing attitude of both the New Democratic Party and the Conservative Party of Canada. I understand her decision to belong to a national party that feels compelled to support each province, even though it may be against its voters' best interests. The Bloc Québécois has the advantage of representing only the interests of Quebec.

So, the bill now before us goes against the interests of Quebec.

The hon. member talked about petty politics. She should look at herself, instead of accusing Bloc Québécois members of engaging in partisan rhetoric.

We had a fine example last weekend. Indeed, we saw two government ministers go so low as to betray their voters by signing a contract that deprives Quebec of huge revenues and that is evidence of yielding to Canada. Such is the vision of major national parties. This is why the Bloc Québécois will never support a bill that will downgrade what already exists in Quebec.

Remember during the election campaign, when the Conservatives were going on about being open and respectful. Today, we can only conclude that the Harper government is pursuing the federal objective of infringing on—

[The Acting Speaker, Royal Galipeau]

Order, please. The hon. member for Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou knows that other hon. members cannot be referred to by their surnames or given names, just by their title or the name of their riding.

So a word to the wise.

[Yvon Lévesque, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I just referred to the government by the name of its leader, but I meant the Conservative government, if you prefer that view of things.

So it arrogated unto itself the override power in section 347, which has now led to the Bloc Québécois opposing this bill.

[Judy Wasylycia-Leis, NDP, Winnipeg North, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I simply cannot understand the position taken by the Bloc member here in the House of Commons. It is a fact that this bill does not change a thing in the province of Quebec. If Quebec has effective laws for dealing with money mart-type problems, that is well and good. That is very good for Quebeckers. There is a problem, though, in the rest of Canada. It does not have a bill of this kind or a way of protecting the victims of payday lenders and money marts.

This bill is therefore an opportunity for all us to make a difference everywhere in Canada. This is not a jurisdictional problem. Nothing in this bill affects the ability of the Bloc members or the PQ or anyone else in Quebec to determine their future. This is really a bill that addresses the problems of people who have been victimized by money marts and payday lenders. That is all.

Why does the Bloc want to turn every bill into a jurisdictional debate, even when that is not the case?

Our support for this bill does not mean that we support the Conservative government in general, but we will work together with anyone in the House to make changes that are important for people everywhere in Canada. That is all.

The Bloc’s position simply does not make sense. I want to go back to the article written by Pierre Jury in Le Droit:

If he had really wanted to do something for poor people in this country—

I imagine that that is what the Bloc members in the House really want. They want to work on solving the problems of poor people. Consequently, as other people in Quebec say, if we are interested in changing the conditions that cause poverty in Canada, we must deal with the financial service operators that victimize people. They are like vultures. They are going to set ultra-high interest rates that push people into poverty.

[Guy André, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I listened to the member from the NDP and, as my colleague from the Bloc mentioned, with proposed clause 347 in the bill, the federal government could encroach on Quebec's jurisdiction. It could interfere with what we do. In Quebec, we have the Office de la protection du consommateur and it set the maximum interest rate at 35%.

What I do not understand in the position of my colleague from the NDP is that she compares that kind of loans to loans from automatic teller machines and to other kind of loans and she purports to defend the interests of the poorest in our society. However, the bill talks about interest rates of 60% over two weeks. That means that the person who borrows money could be charged up to 60% interest after two weeks and that would be legal according to the bill. Are you really asking for that? I cannot believe it. How can you say that and still claim that you defend the poorest in our society? Are there no other solutions?

[Judy Wasylycia-Leis, NDP, Winnipeg North, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I realize that the members from the Bloc do not understand the bill. The member said that we are in favour of the 60% interest rate mentioned in the bill. That is not the case. The situation is quite the opposite. We reject the idea that we should simply talk about a 60%interest rate.

We have said the opposite. We have said it does not work in the rest of Canada. Maybe there is a good system in Quebec, but it does not work in the rest of Canada because all of these payday lenders have managed to put together all kinds of other fees, so that 300%, 400% or 1,000% interest ends up being paid. There is no way around it because of the way this area is regulated.

This is not about kow-towing to the federal government. We are simply saying that we would like the federal government and the provinces, not Quebec because it has its own system, to agree that they will put aside the criminal rate of interest, which is 60%, when a province has a better system to manage this area.

It is as simple as that. That is the way things are. That is all. The issue is not one of restrictions, it is not about the weakness of provinces like Manitoba. The issue is an issue of fairness for all people throughout Canada.

[Charles Hubbard, Liberal, Miramichi, NB]

Mr. Speaker, with your permission and the consent of the House, I would like to share my time with the hon. member for Etobicoke North.

As I listen to the debate between the two parties, and we think of the bill, Bill C-26 is a very small bill. Most of the sections in it deal with the concept that the bill will only be effective in terms of trying to regulate the industry if the provinces request assistance. It is not something that is going to be driven by the federal government, but rather it is in response to concerns that the provinces have had that they are not able to regulate the same day or payday loan activity.

We have to assume that there are people out there who want to borrow money for a short period of time. This morning I was checking with one of those groups and I found that it seemed so simple. If one wants to borrow $500, the indication was that one would pay only 16¢ per day for each $100 borrowed, but there is also a $10 fee in order to register with the company.

It sounds like a very small amount of money to pay back, borrowing $500 for 10 days, but when we consider it in terms of the Criminal Code, that interest rate without the fee would be nearly 60%. I am concerned that if I were working for one of those companies today, listening to the debate in the House, it must be rather a slimy feeling they have about our attitudes about the type of activity that they have in those communities.

They are all pointed out as being terrible organizations and we see them as being people who are trying to rip off the poor. In fact, many of them do rip off the poor. I asked the parliamentary secretary this morning, in terms of the other fees that are associated with payday loans because those loans are often given to people who are very short of money, who do not have friends and who have no opportunity to borrow from a bank or from another financial institution.

I dealt with a case in my own riding on Friday of a person who applied for EI. He had been out of work. It took him a few days to get his record of employment from his employer and then he put his request in to draw his EI. After waiting nearly 30 days, his claim had still not been processed. I am glad to say we found out today that his claim has been processed, but an individual who has been without a paycheque for nearly five weeks is in need of money. He said that he had no money because he had medical needs in terms of prescriptions and on Friday afternoon he was very desperate. I would think that he might be a person who would go to a same day lender to get a short term loan until his first EI cheque arrived.

Other people in the country might be working for an employer and would have to wait two or three weeks to get their paycheques. If they could borrow the $500 and get it at a reasonable rate, then it would be a service that our banks and other financial institutions often do not offer.

We know that the sad cases that we hear of usually deal with other penalties that are associated with the initial loans. We know that the costs that they put in, in terms of administrative fees, in terms of whether or not one is able to pay the loan after the 10 or 14 days are up, cause heavy penalties that are built into the amount of money that has to be paid when the loan is up.

We find, as some speakers have indicated, that in many cases companies that are involved in these franchises are able to rollover those loans, to keep the person in a rut until that loan has become so great that it is almost impossible to pay back.

We are talking today about some form of consumer protection. We are trying to avoid the idea of predatory lenders. We have the old system of pawn shops. We have various other financial agencies that cost 30% to get money from them. We have credit cards which sometimes run as high as 28% and we try to regulate those in terms of our various regulations, policies and laws.

This particular bill, Bill C-26, goes to section 347 of the Criminal Code and with it we are placing those organizations not in terms of the financial arrangements that our country has within our finance but more importantly, within the Criminal Code. We are dealing with it in terms of people who would be assessed very heavy penalties, in fact penalties that would put them in the criminal group.

Why do we have it? We as Liberals want to say that we have this on the fast track. We have indicated to the Minister of Justice that there are six bills that he has before the House that we want to be sure that they proceed quickly.

I felt badly today that in terms of some time that we took after question period we dealt with a very difficult case of justice. Wilbert Coffin was a person from Quebec, a riding in fact just north of my own, and to think that we had to debate that issue and bring it in at the same time as we are bringing in another type of criminal activity which is actually causing people to pay too much interest and to cause them financial hardship.

I want to assure the House that as Liberals we strongly support the bill. We want to see that the provinces have the opportunity to bring in legislation that will enable them to effectively regulate not only the same day loans or the payday loans but hopefully to regulate a lot of those activities within our provinces and within our country that cause so much hardship to the people who are less able to afford it.

Being poor is a terrible thing in this country. I know as a party and as the House we all want to work to see that we can end poverty, but we also know that many people are poor on a weekly basis in terms of having some particular problem which causes them to get a same day loan.

As a party we support this venture. We want to see the bill become law as quickly as possible. I can assure you, Mr. Speaker, that our members on this side of the House will support the effort of the Minister of Justice and the minority Conservative government as they proceed with this piece of legislation.