Bill C-3 (Historical)

International Bridges and Tunnels Act

An Act respecting international bridges and tunnels and making a consequential amendment to another Act

This enactment establishes an approval mechanism for the construction, alteration and acquisition of international bridges and tunnels and provides for the regulation of their operation, maintenance and security.

International Bridges and Tunnels Act

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

moved that Bill C-3, An Act respecting international bridges and tunnels and making a consequential amendment to another Act, be read the third time and passed.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Transport]

Mr. Speaker, it is an absolute pleasure to rise in the House and speak for the third time to Bill C-3, the international bridges and tunnels act. This is a great bill for Canada and for many people throughout Canada. It sets some great standards, which I will go into during my speech. I am sure every TV set in Windsor right now is tuned in to see the bill passed by all parties, which have worked cooperatively to get this done.

This is the third time I have spoken to the bill. As the name suggests, it deals with Canada's international bridges and tunnels. These international bridges and tunnels are found in three provinces, Ontario, New Brunswick and Quebec. They link Canada with many states such as New York, Michigan, Minnesota, Maine and Vermont. This is very important legislation because many of these crossings are the busiest between the United States and Canada.

This is the third bill of its kind to be introduced. Former Bill C-44 and its predecessor former Bill C-26 were introduced in Parliament by the previous Liberal government. We are ready to put the bill through the House. The Conservative government gets things done.

The former bills sought to amend the Canada Transportation Act, Canada's framework transportation legislation. They were too large and cumbersome to get through. That is why our government, in trying to get results, took this portion out of it, dealing only with bridges and tunnels along with various other amendments.

The Liberals will try to take credit, as they usually do, but the Conservative government has taken action on the bill and on this important issue to Canadians, especially to the people in Windsor since that crossing is undergoing some re-evaluation at this stage.

Both of the previous Liberal bills died on the order paper, Bill C-44 in November 2005. The provisions dealing with international bridges and tunnels in those former bills were a small part of the overall amendments being proposed. These amendments and provisions have now been introduced in the form of a stand-alone bill that focuses only on international bridges and tunnels.

While Bill C-3 borrows some of the legislative provisions from the previous bills, the actual provisions have been reworked and at least two new provisions have been added because of some deficiencies in the previous bills.

As everyone in the House knows, including most people who are listening today, the sections 92(10) and 91 of the Constitution give exclusive jurisdiction to the federal government for international bridges and tunnels. Despite this exclusive legislative authority, no law in the history of Canada has ever been adopted that applies to all international bridges and tunnels and sets out how the federal government may exercise that authority. That is why Bill C-3 is so important.

Most of today's international bridges and tunnels were brought into existence by individual acts. Each one deals with inconsistencies in the other acts. This will bring some cohesion to the legislation itself and deal with international bridges and tunnels, as should be done, in one piece of legislation that would govern all.

The schedule attached to the bill sets out 53 special acts, that is 53 times the House had to deal with different bridges and tunnels, many of which were adopted shortly after Confederation. These are almost 100 years old. As such, they have other language in them, which does not deal with some of the realities of today. After September 11, 2001, safety and security of our international border crossings, of our trade route and of our citizens has become a very important issue. Now our government is finally acting on it and we will get some results.

In addition to confirming the federal government's jurisdiction with respect to international bridges and tunnels, the bill also proposes to introduce rules that will apply to all existing and future international bridges and tunnels. It will modernize the special bridge and tunnel acts to which it makes reference.

Bill C-3 sets out a formal administrative process for approving the construction of all new international bridges and tunnels and for alterations to existing structures, thereby replacing the need for the government to pass special legislation every time something needs to be done to one of these important crossings.

The bill would also give the government the power to make regulations in areas such as maintenance and repair, safety and security and operation and use of the crossings, with the goal of adopting standards or best practices in these areas. That would be applicable to all international bridges and tunnels no matter where their location or who owned them.

It is important to the people of Windsor that we get this legislation through. Then the maintenance and repair, the safety and security and the operation of tunnels and bridges will be governed by the federal government consistently across the country.

As I indicated before, two provisions were not contained in the previous bill. The first is a technical provision that deals with crossings over the St. Lawrence. It serves to remedy a provision contained in the Navigable Waters Protection Act to allow for approval of the new international bridges and tunnels that cross the St. Lawrence River. Presently there are three international bridges across this river, all of which are in Ontario.

As a new low level bridge is being planned for Cornwall, I can imagine the folks in Cornwall are also looking intently at the screen today as this will greatly simplify an already very complex procedure.

The second new provision deals with transactions that affect the ownership or operation of an international bridge or tunnel. Bill C-3 proposes that these transactions first, be subject to government approval. Second, it sets out an administrative process which deals with the approval of it, similar to that proposed for applying for new construction or alterations. This is an extension of the federal government's jurisdiction in the area of international bridges and tunnels and, more important, its corresponding responsibilities to keep Canadians safe and secure.

For instance, regardless of who the owner is, these structures are relied heavily on by Canadians. In fact, the federal government has a responsibility. Members of all parties have a responsibility to push the legislation through as quickly as possible because we have been without it for so long. Canadians need to be kept safe and secure. It does not matter who owns and operates these bridges. All maintenance, repairs and alterations have to be done in the national interest. That is why the bill is so important.

These are not ordinary assets. The federal government must at all times know who owns and operates these structures and be advised and approve any proposed change in ownership or operation. With so many vehicles and so much trade crossing these bridges, we need to ensure those trade routes remain viable and in the best interests of Canadians.

These are vital links not only for trade, but for tourism as well. The federal government has the responsibility to protect the asset and protect the people who use the asset. If there were ever any doubt of the importance of this, during second reading I gave some impressive statistics, and I would like to share those again with the House.

Over $530 billion in goods are traded annually with the United States. Of that, $1.9 billion per day goes across those bridges. Almost all of that is transported by truck. We also heard the importance of our rail systems, which are responsible also for shipping approximately 270 million tonnes of freight per year and carry many millions of passengers across these international bridges. This rail link goes as far as the Gulf of Mexico, as far south as Mexico, so it is a very important link.

Considering the transportation industry employs over 830,000 Canadians, it is therefore not hard to imagine the financial impact on our economy if these links were put in jeopardy in any way. I would suggest that we in the House would be negligent not to put this legislation through, now that we have the opportunity, especially for the folks in Windsor. It is a danger to leave these vital links unguarded.

It goes without saying that we must promote trade and ensure that our borders are safe and secure. Many of the existing international bridges and tunnels have implemented security measures, but we need consistency along that so there is a certain level and threshold that is kept to ensure Canadians are as safe as possible and that our vital links are kept as safe as possible.

There are some measures also to increase traffic efficiency. These serve as good examples for us, but we need to share these good examples with all international bridges and crossings so we get the best result for Canadians. The proposed bill will enable the government to achieve its goal of securing the borders in a way that will not distract from our trade goals which are so important.

I will quickly summarize the various legislative steps through which Bill C-3 has already passed and explain why it is here today. The bill was introduced on April 24, 2006. It was debated over a two day period at second reading ending on May 1, after which members voted to send the bill for review to the Standing Committee on Transport , Infrastructure and Communities of which I am a member. During the months of May and June the standing committee met to on six separate occasions discuss the bill.

Does that not show government working well? The bill was introduced on April 24 and here we are today trying to push the bill through on the very last day of the spring sitting. This speaks to the great work that the Conservative government is doing.

During this time the committee heard from several witnesses. The committee heard from Transport Canada officials involved in drafting the bill and developing the policies that the bill seeks to define. The committee also heard from Mr. Tom Garlock, the president of the Bridge and Tunnel Operators Association. That association represents over 10 organizations responsible for the largest and the busiest international bridge and tunnel crossings.

The committee also heard directly from one of the members of the Bridge and Tunnel Operators Association, the Canadian Transit Company, the owner and operator of the Ambassador Bridge in Windsor, which of course is very important, as represented by Mr. Matthew Moroun and Mr. Dan Stamper, its president.

The committee heard from Phil Benson, a lobbyist for Teamsters Canada.

The committee heard from a large gamut of people. It had professionals in to provide an opinion. The main concern expressed by the BTOA was the potential financial impact. That is something private companies would be concerned with. The association wanted to make sure that the government's ability to intervene would not cut into profits. At the same time, the government wished to have a balance. We wanted people to cross as efficiently and effectively as possible, keeping in mind security and safety.

The Prime Minister and this government listened. As a result the government brought forward its own motion to amend the toll provisions to suggest alternative language that would address the government's desire to safeguard against toll increases or decreases that would have a negative effect on traffic. This government listened and acted in the best interests of stakeholders and Canadians. We found a compromise.

The result of this amendment is the new clause 15.1. The issue of consultation was also debated in the committee. In fact, the result of these amendments and debates led to a second government amendment, the addition of subclause 15(2), which would require the government to consult with stakeholders on issues of operation and use, which of course is very important to stakeholders. That this government would listen to them speaks to the quality of the government itself.

On this issue I feel the need to make a few comments. At report stage the member for Windsor West delivered a very passionate speech on this very topic. I feel that, putting aside political rhetoric, it left the public with the impression that this government did not believe in public consultation, which is simply not the case, and that it would not be undertaking any type of consultation in the processes set out in the bill. I have laid out the groundwork for that. We have already consulted with many people in drafting the bill. We have consulted with experts. It is simply not true. The Prime Minister and this government listens. We will do what is in the best interests of the people of Windsor and Canadians all across the country.

The committee referred to the numerous types of consultations that will and must take place under the bill and under other existing legislation by reason of issues raised by the bill. For example, before a new bridge or tunnel is built, a very lengthy and thorough environmental assessment must take place. What could be more important than consulting with the members of a community, the stakeholders and governments on the environmental impact? There is nothing more important as far as the government is concerned. We care about the environment.

Public consultations are an important and integral part of this process. Also, any regulation taken under the bill is subject to the federal regulatory process as set out in the Statutory Instruments Act. Before regulation comes into force, this process requires that consultations with the public be held. Yes, it is already required that consultations with the public be held.

In fact, before Bill C-3 was introduced, Transport Canada consulted with many stakeholders in connection with proposed legislation and their concerns were dealt with when possible. The key is that the government is going to protect Canadians and protect the trade of Canadians.

I understand that similar consultations will be undertaken when it comes time for preparing the regulations under the bill. This government is accountable and transparent to taxpayers. The government is not allowed to run fancy free. We will not do that, as some members opposite suggest. There are constant checks and balances in the system and many opportunities for the public, including all levels of government, to express their concerns.

The issue of the transportation of dangerous goods was also brought forward and we discussed it at length. While this issue did not result in an amendment, I will repeat to the House what I said to my fellow committee members. Transport Canada is reviewing the current regulations to do with dangerous goods transportation to see that this issue is properly addressed because we want to keep Canadians secure. In the meantime, the bill as worded would actually permit the adoption of regulations on this issue.

In addition to this amendment, several minor technical amendments were made to the bill. The details of these amendments are contained in the committee's report to the House.

This brings us to where we are today. I am asking members to support the government on this bill, to support Canadians, to support the people of Windsor, to pass the bill in order to get the job done for Canadians. When it comes time to vote, we need to put party rhetoric aside, put party politicking aside and pass this bill to keep safe and secure the transportation of goods across the borders.

According to our Constitution, international bridges and tunnels are the federal government's responsibility. Obviously, they are the federal government's responsibility because one voice is needed to guarantee the safety and security of Canadians. Currently no legislation exists that sets out the manner and the extent to which the government may be involved in matters relating to international bridges and tunnels. What could be more important? I would suggest at this stage, nothing. This includes important matters such as maintenance, safety and security that are of concern to all Canadians who use these structures.

This is a great bill and I look forward to all parties supporting it. The extent to which the government can get involved will be addressed in the regulations that will be adopted under this legislation. The government will look again to stakeholders, as we always do, and invite their comments with the view to addressing their particular concerns at that time.

I would therefore encourage all members of the House to put aside politics. I would ask them to support the people of Windsor, to support Canadians, and support all people using the international bridges and tunnels. Let us pass the bill so that our colleagues in the Senate can start the process of reviewing it without delay. In that way we will be one step closer in the long process of making this important bill law.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I agree with the parliamentary secretary that Bill C-3 is very important not only for Canada but also for those residents who live near border crossings across this country. There are 24 crossings which are international bridges or tunnels that are significant to this specific legislation.

I reside in a municipality where there is a concentration of border crossings. We have significant issues with regard to the process followed on Bill C-3. What we thought was going to happen was potentially a deal to accommodate some of the local concerns regarding problems experienced at the border. We also wanted to make this the best bill possible. That is important to note. The parliamentary secretary talked about the urgent nature of this bill as well as the suggestion of being neglectful if we do not pass this bill at this time.

Of those 24 international bridges and tunnels, 22 of them actually have ownership that is governed either through the state or federal government on the American side, and on the Canadian side it is the federal government, the province or even municipalities that are owners-operators and active managers of border crossings. That leaves two private facilities that are currently without legislation because they are private property. They are subject to different laws of this land, but they do not have the degree of scrutiny that is important.

I was hoping the government would move toward accommodating actual consultation as a full component of the process. We were able to achieve that at committee for the operational use of the international bridges and tunnels. Once again, it is not a veto. In previous legislation which is being replaced, that was and is the case. There could be local vetoing with respect to some changes.

In terms of compromise, what we asked for is guaranteed consultation in the sale of the property of the bridge or tunnel and also for the construction and alteration which affects the roads in the area and the connecting interlinking highways to the bridge that could be municipal domain or another level of government domain.

Why can we not include those two elements that would actually make a harmonization of the bill? There should be a consultation process that allows the minister to at least have some direction, but at the same time does not bind him or her and more important, has municipalities and local governments as partners of a process to ensure safe, secure and fair trade in our communities.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Mr. Speaker, first, the division of powers is the federal government's responsibility. It is the federal government's responsibility to protect Canadians. Second, there is environmental legislation already in place that requires consultation. The Statutory Instruments Act already requires consultation.

There were a couple of problems with the amendment proposed. The first problem was found the very night we actually made an amendment, just a few nights ago, when we were trying to push this bill forward. The wording was wrong. It stated that the minister actually had to consult before he received an application. Obviously, he cannot consult until he receives an application. We amended that.

Then we found another problem. The amendment wanted us to consult with all levels of government and it has to be, by the Supreme Court of Canada, meaningful consultation. It cannot just be a phone call to ask how it is going today; it has to be meaningful consultation. There are very stringent guidelines.

Let us talk about what a government is. Oxford defines a government as the action or manner of governing a state, organization or people. It has a very wide definition. Some possibilities are: the provincial government; the federal government; school boards; cities, and sometimes four or five could be involved with one particular bridge, but it could be as many as seven or eight cities because they just have to be affected; municipalities; aboriginal bands; chambers of commerce; federal departments; provincial departments; downtown business associations; farming organizations; trucking organizations; et cetera. There are many different forms of government.

The amendment was brought forward too late. The member knows he should have brought it forward in committee, but it was a last-minute thought. We understand that happens sometimes, but it has not been thought out.

The key here at this stage is to get it done, to get it in place. There are already all sorts of consultation processes that must be done by the government. Let us help the people of Windsor. Let us put this legislation through now before it is too late.

[Christian Ouellet, Bloc, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to know what the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Transport, Infrastructure and Communities means by an old bridge. He mentioned this at the beginning of his speech.

The Bloc Québécois believes that this is an important bill. It is odd to think that a bridge is old when it was built 75 or 100 years ago. Major structures such as bridges and tunnels—but bridges, especially—last for centuries, because they can be repaired more or less eternally. Thus, I would first like to know what he means by an old bridge and what he intends to do with older bridges.

Furthermore, does this bill provide for the investment of funds? Is there political will to help people or will the responsibility be passed on to the provinces and municipalities?

Lastly, can he explain why he thinks the Quebec bridge has been painted and is working properly? This is what he said yesterday.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I want to clarify my comments. I was speaking of the bridge that this Conservative government is trying to build with Quebec. Obviously we are building it with Quebeckers and Quebeckers have a lot of faith in this government because of what we are doing.

I actually did not hear the question entirely yesterday and I apologize for the confusion, but I can assure the member that all steps are being taken to make sure that the actual owner and controller of that bridge will do what is required and will take that rusty bridge, paint it and make repairs to it.

That is the very point I make about this particular bill, how important it is to the people of Canada. Even though it is not an international bridge, how important is it to the people of Quebec? It is very important, just as the international bridges and tunnels are very important to the people of Canada for trade, tourism, and just to go see friends and family.

What I meant by old is that many of these bridges were constructed well before I was born and well before the member was born. We have to have the ability to inspect. We have to have the ability to know what is happening with the bridges because they are so crucial to the country. Whether they be 50, 100 or 150 years old, the key is that they are safe, that they are secure and they are kept in proper working condition. That is what we want for the Quebec bridge, which is so important to Quebeckers, so important to this Conservative government which is working for the Quebec people.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Mr. Speaker, my colleague from Windsor West raised some very valid concerns about consultation. The parliamentary secretary seems to be seized of this issue that too much consultation is a bad thing, and I do not think my colleague from Windsor West would agree with him.

I do agree with my colleague that some levels of government that he sees as being burdensome would not necessarily be bound by the amendment that my colleague is seeking. For instance, I personally do not consider chambers of commerce to be levels of government. Maybe in my hon. colleague's world chambers of commerce are considered levels of government, but not where I come from.

However, he is right when he says that consultation has a legal meaning. The term consultation means more than simply posting a notice on a telegraph pole telling people what the government intends to do. That is not genuine consultation. Consultation implies some meaningful exchange and some accommodation of what one has heard. A town hall meeting cannot simply be called, an announcement made about what is going to be done and then claim that consultation was done with the town of Windsor or the town of Niagara Falls about one's intentions for the international crossing. That, in and of itself, is not good enough.

Would my colleague agree that consultation is a good thing and that it is something we can never have too much of, short of grinding a project to a halt? However, nobody would take it to a ridiculous extreme. Would he also agree that the definition of consultation, in its broadest sense, must incorporate some meaningful exchange of information and accommodation of the other person's point of view?

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Mr. Speaker, it was not my definition that came up with all those examples. I am not allowed to use props but it was the Oxford English Dictionary that gave me that definition. I do believe that the wording right now is far too wide. Consultations would take place over a long period of time.

Let us get back to what the bill is about. It is about the safety and security of Canadians. What could be more pressing than that? The minister needs to react today on certain factors and certain things, not in six or eight months or six or eight years once the legal challenges have gone through and once all the other consultations have gone through. The bill would allow the government to do what is necessary to keep Canadians safe and secure and to ensure those trade routes stay open. The buck has to stop somewhere and it stops here with the government.

On a side note, a member of this House has given an undertaking to that member that there will be consultations on the bridge in Windsor. I would trust any member from this side of the government. Their word is their bond and they will follow through.

Nothing could be more important than putting this bill through and ensuring the people of Canada are safe and secure. We already have an environmental act and a statutory interpretation act. We have acts in place that require the consultations the member is asking for. It would be duplicating a process that is already in place and would require far too much in the way of balance, which is the safety and security of Canadians which this government guarantees to do and to work in the best way we can to get it done.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I rise here this morning to speak to the House on Bill C-3, respecting international bridges and tunnels.

As we have already heard, there are currently 24 bridges and tunnels along the 6,400 km of border that separates Canada from the United States. These bridges and tunnels have different owners: 22 are publicly owned, while two others, along with five rail bridges and tunnels, are privately owned.

In order to emphasize for the House just how important this bill is for Canada, let me state again for the record several key points about the subject of this legislation.

First, international bridges and tunnels play an indispensable role in Canada's transportation network. They facilitate a large portion of our vastly successful international trade. As one of the most trade dependent nations on the face of the earth, the role of international bridges and tunnels to our economy can hardly be overstated.

Second, some 13 years after the Liberal government signed onto the North American Free Trade Agreement, trade between Canada and the United States has increased rapidly, year after year. We know that trade increases averaged more than 6% per year over the last decade, thanks, at least in part, to NAFTA and of course the ingenuity and the commitment of the Canadian people.

Third, we also know that the great majority of Canadian exports into the United States go by rail or by truck, particularly in crossings between Ontario, New York and Michigan. This is extraordinarily important when we consider the role, for example, that the auto industry and the auto parts industry play in the context of central Canada's economy. As the jurisdiction that now produces cars more efficiently than any other single nation state in the world, it is extremely important that we ensure that transportation between our two countries remains unimpeded.

The reality of modern business practice now compels most companies to minimize their inventory and, in fact, many companies today track their inventory in live time as it is shipped or delivered. This just in time inventory management practice and system has swept through most economic sectors and has met with success in large part because companies count on seamless, continent-wide transportation and delivery systems.

Fourth, as I mentioned previously, in 2005 our bilateral trade exceeded $580 billion. Every single day trade between the United States and Canada exceeds $1.6 billion. One study rightly suggests that if Canada does not properly operate and maintain its existing stock of international bridges and tunnels and go further and consider developing new such crossings, then Canada might lose up to 70,000 jobs by 2030 and possibly forgo almost $22 billion in production.

To quote my colleague, the hon. member for Outremont, when he was the minister of transport he made it clear that what was needed was to give to federal government, finally, the legislative authority required for effective oversight of these international bridges and tunnels to ensure the interests of Canadians were protected.

The parliamentary secretary was right in reminding the House that this was, in large part, the work of the previous Liberal government. It was our government's work in this area which culminated in an understanding that we must make more coherent our overall approach to these vital structures.

It is no secret that this bill is identical in purpose to legislation that our government brought to the House on two separate and previous occasions. Here is the chronology of what has brought us to the debate this morning. It began with the Canada Transportation Act amendments that were very much along the lines of the current Bill C-3 we are debating. These were tabled as part of Bill C-26 during the second session of the 37th Parliament when our party formed the government.

It is extremely important to remind Canadians that the current Prime Minister and the rest of what was then the Canadian Alliance Party were not interested at all in working for those amendments and they voted against them at second reading. To this day I am unsure as to what the rationale, if any, was at that time.

In the 38th Parliament we tabled Bill C-44, which included the very same amendments, and once again the opposition of the day, now the government, found little, if any, merit in our proposals, as it did with so many good Liberal bills on the order paper at the time, choosing instead to bring down the government with the help of the NDP and the Bloc Québécois and, in effect, for a second consecutive time, kill the legislation.

As we know, outspoken members of the Conservative government are fond of the preposterous and now ridiculous claim that previous Liberal governments did nothing. The introduction of Bill C-3 is a clear statement for Canadians by the current government, in actions rather than words, that the previous Liberal governments were working in the interests of all Canadians.

I want to thank the Minister of Transport for this vote of great confidence. I am sure he and his parliamentary secretary would be willing to give credit where credit is due. At its core, Bill C-3 is the exercising of the federal government's constitutional powers. These are outlined in sections 91(29) and 92(10) of the Constitution Act of 1867.

However, for everyday Canadians who are watching, from Cornwall to Windsor, at every place where there might be such an international crossing, this bill reaffirms our government's investment in the safety and security of this country.

Although at first blush the bill would appear to invest, in an almost unfettered way, authority in the governor in council or the Minister of Transport when it comes to all matters dealing with international bridges and tunnels, but closer examination suggests that it achieves the right balance; a balance between the free movement of people, goods, services and the need for emergency powers, standards for building, owning, financing or operating such a bridge or tunnel but all the while building in safeguards to protect against excessive control and appropriate security standards.

For example, under the bill no one would be able to build, change or alter an international bridge or tunnel without getting approval. Most Canadians would consider that to be more than obvious, but this is a hallmark feature of the previous Liberal government's approach to this issue. I would expect no less from the current government than to cut and then to paste these sections into the new bill.

A transparent and predictable approvals process is set out in Bill C-3, including the need for documentation, giving very wide scope for the imposition of any terms and conditions that the Crown, on behalf of the people, considers appropriate.

When it comes to maintenance or repairs, the Minister of Transport would be authorized to order any action of an owner or operator to ensure that for Canadian businesses and citizens the bridge or tunnel is kept in good condition.

Perhaps of all the parts of the bill I am most supportive of is the work done by our government and taken up by the Conservative government, which is now reflected in the bill, and it deals with the issuance of letters patent for incorporation. In simple terms, this allows for the creation of a new company or corporation which could build or operate an international bridge or tunnel. This is not unimportant going forward with the growth of our economy and the concentration of trade with the United States.

Our government worked very hard to ensure a high degree of specificity around any new company that might get into the business of building a bridge or a tunnel. We went as far as to require approval for the number of directors on a corporate board. The current bill reflects this. We are asking to see their powers and duties. We are demanding that a code of conduct would apply to such directors and officers. Finally, the terms of ownership of the corporation would be spelled out in black and white for all Canadians.

We went further to protect Canadians. It is reflected in the bill that we believed then, as we do now, that the government should be in a position to revoke letters patent of incorporation that had been previously granted. This is a strong power vested in the Crown, but one that we felt at the time, and we still agree, might be necessary in the case of risks associated with the free flow of goods, of people or security. As well, we provided very onerous duty of care provisions for any directors or officers of corporations in the international bridges or tunnels business.

All in all, our foundational work, which underpins the bill, reflects the fact that it is simply appropriate for the federal government to oversee international bridges and tunnels. Other orders of government would expect that their national government would have these powers. Canadians who are watching would assume that their federal government was looking after these matters because they deal with one other country in particular.

To pick up on a comment I made earlier, for all their allegations about a government that apparently did nothing for 13 years, a blame game theme that is wearing thin for most Canadians, it is terribly ironic that the new government continues to take our substantive work for the underpinnings for the bill. This is not the first time that Liberal ideas have been begged, borrowed or stolen, or usually adopted, and neither will this be the last.

Canadians could be forgiven for concluding, from its stance on the bill and so many other actions, that the Conservative government speaks out of both sides of its mouth. It wants Canadians to believe a fundamental falsehood: that the heavy lifting and the substance of our time in government simply did not occur. So it is important, I think, to be very honest about the bill.

As the minister is well aware, and as we have just heard in previous exchanges, there is a lingering debate in the House about the provisions in Bill C-3 that speak to the issue of consultation. That is to say, should the Minister of Transport ultimately authorize, for example, the construction of a new bridge or the expansion of an existing tunnel, what might be the obligations on the minister to consult with other orders of government and any other interested parties such as banks, finance companies, corporations, international owners and national owners?

Some have argued that municipal or provincial governments ought to have some form of veto. I have not heard that yet on the floor of the House, but some do argue that municipalities or provincial governments ought to have some form of veto on pursuing such a project. Others have said that compelling private parties, the proponents of projects to build a bridge or a tunnel, to be consulted by the minister might compromise what those private parties describe as trade secrets. I think it is very unfortunate that the government, in its approach to this debate, has not at all enlightened the House with respect to the specific issue of consultation.

It also did not illuminate the state of the debate when it comes to mandatory or discretionary consultation requirements, but instead has chosen to generate more unproductive heat. In this, I think, the government has failed, and its continuing partnership with the New Democratic Party in particular, a partnership referred to just yesterday by the Prime Minister as one that might keep his government afloat until 2009, appears to not be so amicable today.

That being said, I look forward to supporting Bill C-3. In sum, with this bill I think that our previous government crossed the Rubicon and moved as a government to tie together our social, environmental, trade, economic and security concerns as they relate to our outstanding relationship with our southern neighbours. Bill C-3 is at its heart another example of the Liberal legislation that for 13 years has strengthened the Canadian economy and defended Canadians against threats to their safety, their security and their mobility.

I commend the government for choosing a modest and well-founded work for its second bill this session. Working as a good faith opposition in a minority Parliament, I can assure everyone in this House that we will not play games with what is clearly a bill in Canada's public interest.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Mr. Speaker, it is a privilege to rise and ask my colleague a question. I listened to his thoughtful debate. He did an excellent job of looking at the history of this bill and its failure to make it through the parliamentary process. I think one of the reasons why it is still struggling today is that it is still an incomplete bill.

One of the things I would like to note, and one of the concerns we New Democrats still have, is the issue of consultation. We know that there now is going to be consultation, provided because there was a hard-fought amendment in committee with regard to the operations of the facility.

We still fail to understand why it is inconsistent to have the same for the sale and also the alteration and construction. Once again, we are not seeking a veto. We are just asking that the consultation process be regulated and well defined so that it will be more helpful.

I would like to quote the member for LaSalle--Émard, the former prime minister, who said on March 13, 2004, “We are not going to do this unless it really conforms to what the people of the city want”. So now we have done this and it is a question of determining how exactly the city wants to see us do it. This is not going to be imposed. It is an absolute guarantee that is it not going to be imposed, yet this legislation allows for that process to happen.

I would like my hon. colleague to expand upon this dilemma, because really what ends up happening is that the minister becomes the unilateral authoritarian with regard to the ultimate decision. There are some processes such as environmental processes and whatnot, but they are quite different from community consultation. Once again, why can we have that for operational use on the facilities of tunnels and bridges, but we cannot have the same for the sale and resale and, lastly, the alteration and construction? All we are seeking is consultation, not veto.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I do want to pick up on the theme of consultation because it is interesting to note this morning the extent to which it is driving a wedge between two parties which have formed an obvious partnership over the last several months together in the House, both of which have gone public now to explain to Canadians what that partnership means and why it is important for them.

But let me go to the specific question of consultation. I commend the NDP for raising the question of consultation. Our Liberal government was the government that transformed the relationship and the approach to other orders of government, particularly cities. We were the government that launched the cities deal. We were the government that launched infrastructure funding. We were the government that invested massively in public transit, in water systems and in waste systems.

We were the government that was brought down by the Bloc Québécois, the NDP and the Conservatives, and now we have a situation where a government that might have been perhaps more receptive to the notion of outreach to cities and provinces is now the official opposition. So first let me say that it is rich for the NDP members to not remind Canadians that they had and have some responsibility for putting into government a Conservative regime which, in the last election, was not endorsed by 37 mayors of the largest cities of this country.

However, given that we are talking about consultation, I think there is a duty here on the New Democratic Party, on this member in particular and his colleagues, to put forth with clarity here what it is they are trying to achieve. It is one thing to say that we are going to hold town hall meetings in an affected community and perform, as I think the member's colleague mentioned earlier, what I describe as flash card consultation, that is, now we see it and now we do not, we take under advisement; go back into the kitchen cabinet and make a decision.

There are provisions, it is true, in other federal, provincial and municipal legislation and bylaws that will compel a degree of consultation with the affected community. This is true, but there is a question that concerns me the most about the member seizing upon consultation with a specific and separate order of government, i.e. the cities in particular and the city of Windsor in particular. The question that concerns me, having seized upon that, is that the member has not at all brought clarity to the question of the impacts on private parties.

What does it mean if the minister is compelled? What does it mean that the minister “shall” consult with private parties? What are the legal ramifications of such consultation? What are the litigious possible outcomes derived from such possible consultations? What about trade secrets? What about enforcement?

All of these things have not been debated. I think it is a little disingenuous of my colleague to seize upon the municipal consultation question, which I deeply respect and am deeply concerned about, without bringing forward a fuller gamut of solutions to deal with the impacts of instructing a minister of the Crown that he or she would be obliged to perform some kind of consultation.

Yes, there is some legal definition around consultation as rendered by courts at different levels, but I think it is important now to circumscribe this. I am looking for more clarity.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Mr. Speaker, the first time I met my hon. colleague he was the chair of the National Round Table on the Environment and the Economy. We were in a public debate on CPAC, I believe, on some environmental issue. At that time, I am sure he would have been adamant that groups and private organizations would be consulted thoroughly in dealing with something as major as the infrastructure we are talking about. There seems to be a bit of a contradiction between who he was then and who he is now.

I do have a specific question about the Liberals generally, I suppose. I noticed a bit of a backhanded aside blaming the NDP for the Liberals losing power. That seems to be a theme that the Liberals never lose an opportunity to raise. I think they should get over it. It was the people of Canada who unelected the Liberals, not the New Democratic Party.

I do have a question that is specifically related to one of the hon. member's Liberal colleagues. Does he know or can he share with us why the Liberal member for North Vancouver introduced a motion at the committee that would allow a bridge or a tunnel to be twinned without any environmental assessment? I presume the member for North Vancouver was talking about the Lions Gate Bridge, perhaps, from Vancouver proper to West Vancouver.

I cannot imagine anybody having that mindset about any structure over open water. I come from the building industry and I know the lengths that we go to and the hoops we have to jump through to build over open water to ensure that contamination does not take place from that activity. Perhaps he could explain that to me without the jabs about the NDP somehow being responsible for bringing down the former Liberal government.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Mr. Speaker, first, my views about consultation in a previous life and my views about consultation in this life remain unchanged. In fact, if we want to talk about environmental considerations, there are extremely onerous environmental assessment standards across the country, primarily provincial but some federal. My views on the need to achieve sustainable development in the way we pursue international bridges and tunnels remains unchanged.

Second, with respect to my colleague from North Vancouver who tabled the motion, I am afraid I was not a member of the committee at the time that motion was tabled. I did not have the privilege of hearing about it nor debating it, but I would remind the hon. member, if I understood his recollection of the motion, it had nothing whatsoever to do with international bridges and tunnels. We are debating international bridges and tunnels here today.

Third, with respect to what I said moments ago, I will repeat it for the record. It is incumbent upon those members of the New Democratic Party who are concerned about the consultation question to answer some fundamental questions that are more complex than simply saying that any city where a bridge or tunnel is located ought to be, should be or must be consulted. It is not that simple. This is not a simple business and it is incumbent upon the NDP and particularly on the private sector side to explain to the House and to private sector actors precisely what the impacts of their calls for change would be.

[Robert Carrier, Bloc, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask for the unanimous consent of the House to share my time with the hon. member for Brome—Missisquoi.

[The Deputy Speaker, Bill Blaikie]

Does the House give unanimous consent for the member for Alfred-Pellan to split his time with the member for Brome—Missisquoi?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[Robert Carrier, Bloc, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise and speak today about Bill C-3, an act respecting international bridges and tunnels.

Since this bill incorporates part of Bill C-44, which was introduced during the 38th Parliament and which the Bloc Québécois supported, we naturally support this bill. However, we do have some reservations, which I will explain later.

This is the first time the Government of Canada has put legislation in place to allow it to exercise its authority over international bridges and tunnels. The new government tells us it wants to ensure that the security, safety and efficient movement of people and goods are in accordance with national interests. The events of September 2001, it must be noted, made clear the importance of protecting these vital infrastructures.

The proposed amendments would give the Government of Canada new and broader legislative powers to oversee approvals of international bridges and tunnels. These amendments would give the government power to approve, on the recommendation of the Minister of Transport, the construction or alteration of international bridges and tunnels and to formulate regulations governing the management, maintenance, security, safety and operation of these structures. The bill would also authorize the federal government to approve the sale or transfer of ownership of international bridges and tunnels. Note as well that it would strengthen federal government oversight of all new and existing international bridges and tunnels in order to better protect the public interest and ensure the flexible flow of international trade.

There are currently 24 international vehicular bridges and tunnels and five international railway tunnels linking Canada and the United States. These bridges and tunnels carry the vast majority of international trade between Canada and the United States and play a vital role in Canada's transportation system. Although only one bridge of minor importance is located in Quebec, the Bloc Québécois still recognizes the relevance of this bill. As we have always done in the past, we are making a constructive contribution to the development of government policies that benefit the entire population.

For example, during committee review of the bill we realized the significance of the new law we are discussing today when we learned that the Ambassador Bridge linking Windsor, Ontario, to Detroit, Michigan, in the United States, is privately owned by an American corporation. The current owner is opposed to this bill and we believe that the Canadian government must have oversight and jurisdiction over all international links between the two countries.

What concerns Quebec the most about this bill is a provision affecting international bridges and tunnels on the St. Lawrence River. These provisions correct the legislative anomaly in the Navigable Waters Protection Act which requires a permit for all work affecting navigable waters but which does not authorize the issuance of permits for the St. Lawrence River. This anomaly became apparent when plans for the highway 30 bridge crossing the St. Lawrence south of Montreal were being studied.

The minister declared, in his speech of April 28, that any new crossing over the St. Lawrence would be subject to federal approval. In the past, the federal government has too often demonstrated arrogance toward Quebec and its areas of jurisdiction. We need only think of the choice of Mirabel as the site of the new airport dictated by the federal government against the wishes of the Quebec government at that time.

The Quebec government plans the use of its land and we would not be in favour of the federal government exercising its authority to prevent Quebec from exercising its own powers.

I therefore hope that, in confirming this approval, the federal government takes account of the advice and concerns made known by the government of Quebec, in compliance with the fields of jurisdiction of all the levels of government.

While the bill corrects a legal void in the area of international bridges and tunnels, is designed to make those structures more secure, and has the consent of local stakeholders, it leaves us with certain reservations.

In the context of the international bridges and tunnels regulations, the bill seems to us to grant the government very broad, quasi-police powers, for example, a power to investigate without warrant and a very summary power of seizure.

The government is assigning itself legislative powers, but the financial responsibility lies on other shoulders. Ultimately, we believe that this situation can lead to disputes.

We note that responsibility for international bridges and tunnels lies within the exclusive legislative jurisdiction of the federal government under the British North America Act of 1867.

However, in most cases the Canadian portions of these structures are owned by the provinces. We should therefore ensure that the regulatory and financial implementation of this bill takes place in collaboration and in negotiation with the provinces.

In his speech of April 28, the minister stated that the federal government will be able to ensure that environmental assessments of international bridges and tunnels are conducted in accordance with the Canadian Environmental Assessment Act, when appropriate.

What does the minister mean in adding “when appropriate” to the end of his sentence?

Once again, it is important to us that the minister take account of the powers of Quebec, that he respect the fact that the environment is a jurisdiction shared between the federal government and the provinces, and that he not necessarily have the last word in this matter.

We have consulted the Bureau d'audiences publiques du Québec, the BAPE. In the wake of those consultations, we note that the agreement between that organization and the Canadian Environmental Assessment Agency is yielding good results and that the fields of jurisdiction of each of the agencies are being respected. Given the declared openness toward Quebec, we would like that respect to continue to be applied to the bill we are studying today at third reading.

The issue of fields of jurisdiction was also raised many times in committee, during the clause-by-clause adoption of the bill that is before us today. We have said that we place our confidence in the minister in certain emergency situations when he would assume exceptional powers in a major crisis.

In conclusion, the Bloc Québécois will support the bill at third reading, even though it is a very partial solution to the many remaining transportation problems that need to be resolved in Quebec and in Canada.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Mr. Speaker, my curious observation about what is happening is the fact that the bill contains prescriptive clauses that would allow for some consultation. In my speech I will expand a bit on what is happening in my jurisdiction in terms of the process right now with the Detroit River international crossing or DRIC formula that is occurring.

Nevertheless, with regard to the sale, ownership, alteration and construction, the bill provides no opportunity for the province of Quebec to be consulted unless the minister decides to do so. It does not prescribe anything in particular. I am surprised the Bloc would accede such jurisdiction to the federal government. I thought it would be seeking similar assurances.

I am simply arguing that the minister has to provide that as part of the process and that it is done in a way that is accountable and transparent. It is not even a veto. I cannot quite understand the Bloc position that it would not want to seek that as a base minimum.

It is important to note that the Minister of Transport would become the ex officio for all of this. The minister would become the individual who could do whatever he or she wanted without any of the due processes. I would be interested to hear why the Bloc is willing to accede such jurisdiction to the federal government without any conditions whatsoever.

[Robert Carrier, Bloc, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I thank the member for Windsor West for his question.

As I said in my remarks, part of the consultation and negotiation remains to be done. At present, we have faith in the government. We have to depend on the good intentions of the federal government when it comes to negotiations with the provinces, especially regarding legislation that involves areas where jurisdiction is shared by the provinces and the federal government.

The Bloc Québécois approves of the bill because it acknowledges that these are international structures. The United States is Canada’s immediate neighbour, so it is to be expected that the government will have control of and be able to legislate in relation to these international structures, which are—as regards the Canadian part—currently owned either by the provinces or by private companies. In the Bloc’s view, it is completely illogical to be at the mercy of a private company that could decide what it is going to do with its bridge, and how it is going to maintain it, in this way.

The Bloc Québécois will be following how the law is administered closely, as a precaution, in cases where there are financial implications. We have noticed one flaw in this regard. If something that the federal government requires to be done involves very large sums of money, then in my opinion there might have to be a special agreement in cases where the body that owns the bridge is unable to assume the costs of the federal government’s requirements in full.

[Christian Ouellet, Bloc, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to raise the issue of jurisdiction again, an issue that was much talked about this morning.

In Quebec, municipalities are considered to be creatures of the provincial government. As such, municipalities do not have direct relations with the federal government. In fact, we hope there will be as little of that as possible. The last government began creating relations with municipalities by giving funding to them directly. The Bloc has always believed that the money should go to Quebec, so that it can distribute it to its subordinate bodies, the municipalities. Federal-municipal consultations are not something that we are interested in seeing.

Accordingly, I would like to ask the hon. member for Alfred-Pellan whether he thinks that the approach taken between the federal government and Quebec might be different, in terms of consultations.

[Robert Carrier, Bloc, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague from Brome—Missisquoi for his question.

Respect for jurisdiction over different areas is a very important question for Quebec. However, Quebec still depends on the federal government living up to this obligation. For various reasons, the federal government encroaches on the provinces’ jurisdictions. For example, the federal government currently gives out bursaries, and this is not something over which it has jurisdiction. In fact, it is an interference in a matter under provincial jurisdiction, education. It also encroaches on the jurisdiction of all the provinces over health, having recently proposed the Canada health agency. These are cases where it is important to preserve the provinces’ jurisdiction over these areas.

In the case of international bridges, we hope that the government’s intentions are good.

[Christian Ouellet, Bloc, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the Bloc Québécois recognizes the federal government’s constitutional jurisdiction over bridges and their modern extensions, such as tunnels. In our view, Bill C-3 fills a legal void in the area of international bridges and tunnels. We think that this bill has an important purpose because it aims to improve the security of these major structures. I should say first of all, though, that there are not a lot of them in Quebec. We will return to this.

In terms of regulating international bridges and tunnels, this legislation will provide what could be called watchdog powers that are a bit like police powers, and we are opposed to that. A government should not only be used, as the federal government proposes, to exercise a power of investigation without a warrant or a power of arbitrary seizure. It seems to us that more complete regulations might be less restrictive and would still make it possible to maintain control over our bridges without having to get involved in such difficult situations.

So the government gives itself very broad authority to legislate but leaves the financial responsibility to others. This could potentially lead to a conflict of interest.

There is only one international bridge in Quebec—that has been said and I mention it again—and that is the Glen Sutton bridge leading to East Richford. It belongs to Quebec and Vermont. It is a metal girder bridge built around 1929. That is not very old, therefore, but its design might be a bit old-fashioned. In view of how long some medieval bridges have lasted, though, it might still be good for quite some time. It crosses a small river, the Missisquoi, and is about 150 feet long. Trucks take it without any apparent problems. So it is in good condition. It could obviously benefit from some renovations. At the present time, though, the municipality of Sutton is responsible primarily for snow removal and sanding in the winter, while the Vermont authorities do the rest.

The bridge is inspected jointly by the owners, that is to say, Quebec and Vermont. When repairs are needed, it is apparently the municipality of Sutton that takes care of them. However, the advice comes from Quebec and we think that it is quite good. Vermont covers 70% and Quebec 30%. The Quebeckers in Sutton are not really very interested in Bill C-3 if it does not include any financial assistance. This is obviously not really the purpose of the bill because in Quebec we have only this little bridge.

In the case of this single bridge we have, it is certainly not necessary to simply be told what to do. That may be more important for Windsor than for us.

Obviously, it is our view that, if any bridges crossing the seaway were to be constructed, the plans and the entire project should be prepared by Quebec and would require nothing more than federal approval. We consider that to be proper.

That is how we see this bill. It would satisfy certain needs that we wanted met when the bill was being drafted. As the parliamentary secretary repeated earlier, we wanted to enhance the security around these bridges, as the terrorist incidents of 2001 have placed certain of these structures in some danger. I see no way in which the bill, in its present form, is going to be able to protect the bridge between Sutton and East Richford.

The exclusive legislative jurisdiction of the federal government includes responsibility for harmonizing international bridges and tunnels, but not necessarily for protecting bridges. It is not necessarily because of the terrorist incidents that this legislation is being developed. It is intended far more to harmonize bridges, particularly the 19 bridges in Ontario.

At present, however, they do not have clearly defined legislative and regulatory authority to administer these crossings. That can be done only with funding. If there are no funds, the problems cannot be resolved.

According to the Minister of Transport, Infrastructure and Communities, there is no process at the moment for approving the construction of new bridges or tunnels or modifying existing ones. In the past, construction of a bridge was always effected through legislation. If a complete plan is presented for a new bridge, we in Quebec would like a response: yes or no. We do not want municipal consultation or consultation with masses of people.

Quebec is capable of managing bridge construction on its own. What we want the federal government to say is yes or no: this bridge is safe or it is not.

This is not at all the case for Glen Sutton and East Richford, where there is a little 150-foot bridge.

The fact remains that it is Quebec that looks after its bridges and will look after other international bridges in the future. The Vermont bridge is maintained in the proportion of 30% by Quebec and 70% by Vermont.

The bill contains novel provisions, one of which is approval of transactions affecting ownership. We have some questions about why land transactions will be at issue even before the project is completed.

We also have changes of operator or control. That can cover a lot of ground. When we start controlling who operates a bridge, all sorts of abuses may follow.

In addition to confirming the role of the federal government in relation to international bridges and tunnels, what we have is the federal government issuing guidelines regarding approval of the construction of a bridge or tunnel or the alteration of existing structures, imposing conditions relating to the maintenance and operation of bridges, approving transactions that change the ownership, operator or control of a bridge, and guaranteeing the security and safety of renovations, and that all adds up to still more centralization in Ottawa.

This brings us to the fact that, according to clause 6, “No person shall construct or alter an international bridge or tunnel without the approval of the Governor in Council”, and that, under subclause 4(4), “approval may”—or may not—“be given ... to the site or plans of an international bridge over the St. Lawrence River”, and that, according to clause 14, the government may make regulations respecting the maintenance and repair, operation and use, and safety and security of international bridges and tunnels.

As well, the government will be given very broad police powers, for example to investigate or simply to seize.

Fortunately, there are positive sides to this bill, because we do not find some parts of it very attractive. We will be voting for this bill because it contains some very valuable clauses, which I will describe.

Clause 17 provides that, “If the Minister is of the opinion that there is an immediate threat to the security or safety of any international bridge or tunnel, the Minister may make directions—”. We are entirely in favour of this clause, which is an excellent one.

The approval of the government is needed for the transfer of the ownership, control or operation of an international bridge or tunnel, under clause 23. We consider this clause to be excellent as well.

A Crown corporation may be established to administer an international bridge or tunnel, under clause 29. In our view, this is another extremely worthwhile clause.

To summarize, we support this bill, because it gives us an opportunity to submit complete projects to the federal government. We are much less impressed by the fact that someone is always going to be checking that our bridges are safe. We are capable of doing that ourselves. We are not at all open to the idea of holding consultations with municipalities; that may work just fine in Windsor, but it does not work in Glen Sutton.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Mr. Speaker, with regard to consultation and the Bloc position, I am rather startled that it would actually abandon that so easily in this process. We had a previous agreement to put forth two amendments at report stage that would have fixed this problem. I thank the Bloc for that as well as the Liberal Party. The government originally agreed to that formula and then pulled back at the last minute. Twice it did that with respect to fixing this problem.

It is not just a municipal issue. It is local governments. Quite frankly, municipal governments are creatures of the provinces.

I understand the member's point and he is right to note that even in Ontario, the city of Windsor or other municipal governments are under the jurisdiction of the province as well as the boards of trustees for the school boards. They are all creatures of the province, determined by specific legislation. I know the situation is the same for Quebec.

I am still rather confused about the Bloc allowing this intrusion. It is not a veto power we are seeking here. At least the province of Quebec would be at the table and part of the process for the elements of border crossings. Why would it be a bad idea to have the province enshrined in terms of that process? If not, the Bloc will never take power as a federal body, just by sheer numbers let alone anything else. It will always have to depend upon another federalist party to offer the possibility of being consulted, as opposed to having that as part of a prescripted mandate.

[Christian Ouellet, Bloc, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I thank my hon. colleague for his pertinent comments.

We in Quebec believe ourselves capable of building and maintaining bridges. The federal government must have a say in accepting, rejecting or verifying what we are doing, but it must not dictate what Quebec should do. In my opinion, this bill was not created in order to allow Ottawa to tell us what to do, although it could be interpreted that way.

We prefer to regard it in light of a province's full capacity to build and maintain a bridge. We believe that the federal government's responsibility consists in accepting or rejecting a province's plans. We do not have to participate in a commission, where we will always be a minority, I might add. We believe that it would be much more practical to implement a plan. The province submits a plan to the government that is either accepted or rejected. If Ottawa does not accept it, the province submits another plan. But the details are not discussed in committee.

[Mario Laframboise, Bloc, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to congratulate my colleague on his presentation.

My question for my colleague is simple. The principle must be understood: international bridges and tunnels are matters of exclusively federal jurisdiction. For too long now, governments of this House have been encroaching upon provincial jurisdictions.

The political parties must recognize, as the Bloc Québécois does, what the Constitution of 1867 did. Bridges and tunnels are a matter of federal jurisdiction. The problem lies in the fact that, since 1867, the federal government has off-loaded its responsibilities for these structures. They have become property of the provinces or municipalities, or private property. Currently, there are serious security concerns. Since September 2001, security has become a problem. The government is now trying to take back this area of jurisdiction.

Does my colleague recognize the federal jurisdiction and provincial responsibility for the structure, and will he acknowledge that security is a federal responsibility?

[Christian Ouellet, Bloc, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I want to thank the hon. member for allowing me to clarify.

In the introduction of the speech I made earlier, I mentioned that the Constitution of Canada clearly established under which jurisdiction border crossing works fell, works such as bridges, and their modern offshoots, tunnels. According to the Bloc, every jurisdiction is clear. Dealing with bridges is a federal jurisdiction.

In that sense, the bill is reintroducing what had been dropped. The Bloc is in favour of this bill. Nonetheless, it finds there should be no consultation with the municipalities since they fall strictly within provincial jurisdiction.

We believe the provincial government can propose a plan to the federal government, which will have the final say on that plan.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Mr. Speaker, it is a privilege to rise to speak to Bill C-3, an act to amend the International Bridges and Tunnels Act.

It is important to note that there have been many debates that I have been part of in this House of Commons related to bridges and borders. This one is very important not only to my constituency of Windsor West, the ridings of Windsor--Tecumseh and Essex but also across the country. The New Democratic Party acknowledges that this bill has some very important elements that are coming forward.

It is interesting to note the sense of urgency that has dawned upon this House related to the acts of September 11, 2001. There is no doubt that those events changed our lives forever and require a change in civil society in terms of regulations and how we go about planning our security in Canada. We support all those measures, but it is 2006. Why has this bill not come forward before?

That is important to note because it is a debate that has happened before with regard to the urgency and obstruction. However, at the same time, we as parliamentarians are very interested in having the best bill come forward, and having safety and security measures that actually mean something. For that to happen, this bill has to change because the people on the ground know safety and security in their communities just as well as anybody else here in Ottawa.

It is important to recognize that New Democrats are not calling for a veto. We do not want to be obstructionists whatsoever in this cause and effort. We are calling for prescriptive measures that will allow for a better process, a better bill, and greater safety, security, trade, flow of traffic, and environmental conditions in our communities that will allow all of us to prosper.

If I were to sit silently and not raise these concerns in this House, I would be neglecting the needs, the wishes, and the purpose for which the residents of Windsor West have sent me to this place. I have been involved with this issue as an elected politician since 1997. I can tell members that the things I am suggesting here today are fair, honest and sincere, and they come with elements of compromise on all sides.

There is no doubt that some of the ideas that we had proposed for this legislation could not take place at this point in time, and we withdrew those elements. They were specific amendments that were taken back because the government had good reasons. However, it has no good reason to deny the two changes that New Democrats seek to make a better bill. That is important to acknowledge.

I must take some issue with the idea that we are trying to create an unwieldy process that has no model and no ability to function.

The Detroit River international crossing project partnership is meeting on a regular basis. This is a joint partnership with federal and state partners on the U.S. side and federal and provincial partners on the Canadian side. They have regulatory meetings on a regular basis. They have outreach. They have prescribed timelines. They have community involvement. There is engagement.

I am somewhat critical of some of those elements, but there is a process underway right now that could be a model for these things. That would be part of the regulations. We want the best dialogue possible, and more importantly, trust.

Quite frankly, I am not categorizing the Minister of Transport, saying that we as Canadians cannot trust him and his decision-making ability. I am not personalizing that element whatsoever. I am saying that Bill C-3 is deficient in that it does not provide an obligatory aspect for consultations with organizations, and more importantly, all levels of government that have a vested interest in the health and safety of their communities. That is something that will go on for many years.

What I have learned, and maybe it is the cynic in me, is never to trust people hundreds or thousands of miles away for decisions in one's local community with no guarantee of at least being talked to on a regular basis or of having a vested part of the whole project. That is what is going to make secure, safe and prosperous trade.

It is interesting to note that we have heard a dressing down of other elected officials, whether they be from a school board, or whether they be from a municipality or province. Windsor West, for those who are not aware, has 10,000 international trucks that traverse through this community on a regular basis. Fighting between a Liberal and a Conservative government put a federal highway out in a farmer's field and never connected the several kilometres to the most important border crossing in Canada.

The federal and provincial inter-wrangling at that time left us with a municipal connecting highway, a road, to this crossing. Because of that, we have a series of infrastructure deficiencies that were never adjusted when we signed NAFTA. We watched the trade flow increase significantly year after year and as a city council we raised the alarms. Street after street after street that became clogged, congested and affected received no support from provincial and federal governments to the degree that was necessary to fix the problems. I would be neglectful if I did not fight for those individuals.

All I am asking for in this process, and we have it, is the operational element. It is interesting to note that we have a new clause regarding operational aspects, but if it becomes a road alteration or a change of ownership, we would want to have that operational element.

There are several schools that are affected on one road, a highway, and a couple of other routes that are being proposed for border crossings: Brock, Bellewood, Roseland, Oakwood, Marlborough, St. Francis, St. James, J.E. Benson. These are all primary education facilities. Forester and Assumption are secondary schools. It is interesting to note those two because all I am asking for is that the school board trustees, for example, the school board, at least have a voice, some point of input. Border crossing proposals, be they from the private sector or from the federal and provincial sector, have had significant impacts on the properties of those two high schools.

Once again, all I am asking for are those operational elements.

There is no doubt whatsoever that this bill has some good changes that have merit. Safety and security are issues that are very important.

When I walk out onto my doorstep and look down the street, I see the Detroit River. From my backyard, I can see the Ambassador Bridge. Just a few hundred yards away from me is the CP Rail tunnel. Just down another two kilometres is the Detroit-Windsor tunnel. About five kilometres in the other direction is the Detroit-Windsor ferry. These four crossings account for 42% of the nation's trade in my riding.

Why do I feel so strongly about these clauses and these amendments I have been seeking? I do not want another Canadian community, whether it be in British Columbia or New Brunswick or Quebec to ever have to go through what my constituency is now experiencing. That is important to note because I have seen what it has done.

We literally have studies under way right now with children wearing oxygen and other respiratory measurements when they go to school because of the contaminants and the pollution hazards.

Just today alone, CUPE public safety officers on the bridge filed for a study to be done on breast cancer because of the pollutants and toxins from trucks that are traversing the border and are stationary as they are processed to cross the border.

So, there are significant elements as well as international trade. There is nobody who more sincerely wants to have that trade moved freely, thoroughly and securely than the residents of Windsor where we have our auto industry. Our auto industry provides significant economic benefits not only to our individuals and our community but also to this country.

We want that to prosper, but not at the expense of our children and people in the community. We do not want outsiders imposing things with unilateral decision making processes that do not include us.

Once again, all we are asking for in this bill is consultation. Previously, there was that element with regard to the bill. We understand that things change. We understand that it is comprehensive for all of Canada, but we want to make this better for all.

I do want to talk a bit about the area and some of the failings of this bill that the government has not brought forward in a sense of urgency and that is the public border authority.

Our area in Windsor has four crossings, as I have noted. They are very significant. They involve everything, from the movement of toxic materials and hazardous waste to goods and services and people traversing for employment.

Ironically, we have, for example, people who have credentials that are recognized in the United States, be they doctors, lawyers and other types of technicians for communications industries, who cannot work in Canada on a regular basis. Thousands of nurses go back and forth across the border into the United States on a regular basis.

We understand that we must work together. We are seeking here an overall coordination of the actual infrastructure. It is interesting to note that of the 24 international crossings, as noted earlier, 22 have public ownership in one aspect or another, either on the American side or the Canadian side.

Often they also have border authorities that joint manage them, whether it be in Sarnia, the Blue Water Bridge area, Fort Erie or the Niagara Falls Bridge Commission, where the committee heard from Mr. Tom Garlock who brought to attention of the committee an error in the bill. I give the government credit for rectifying it to ensure they could prosper under this new act.

However, at the same time, in Windsor there is private ownership of the most important asset crossing our country. We have private ownership of a hazardous material ferry operation. We have private ownership of a rail tunnel. We have public ownership of the Windsor-Detroit tunnel. However, there is no overall coordination for these elements. The government still has not brought forward anything to ensure we have efficient trade.

That is why we are asking for this consultation. It is important to note, for example, a change of ownership. Why do we think people should be at least consulted? Say the bridge owner has pecuniary interests in certain economic institutions or other types of businesses. Currently the Ambassador Bridge was bought by a business person who is involved in the transportation industry. There is a whole series of competition issues that need to be discussed and resolved. The potentials are out there. I do not suggest that anything has been done wrong right now, but about the future? Why can there not be that consultation with other proponents being a part of that?

Alteration and construction are critical. Local governments are not backwater places where incompetent people fill rooms and do nothing. People on the streets know the roads, know the services and are paid to represent the people to do so in the best interests of those individuals. Often they have the best solutions to move traffic through their communities that people in other jurisdictions do not know. They deserve the right to be heard, and we witnessed this.

The previous government offered to build a Canadian highway on our waterfront. We have fought for years to have this land become a part of our diamond, our park system. I discussed putting this road on the waterfront with a bureaucrat. It is amazing. Those are the things we are looking to avoid.

People in the municipality or the province have some good solutions. We also understand when those roads connect or are under construction, that has an effect. An important part of the mandate and process would be to avoid time lags and overlaps in construction. We know on the American side there will be construction on the Ambassador plaza side. That will reduce I-75 to a one lane entrance exit, which will be significant because it could back up traffic. It will certainly back it up to the plaza. We are glad the Ambassador Bridge has expanded its plaza to a certain degree to accommodate some of that, but it has repercussions on the city of Windsor, especially if we have other problems.

For example, during 9/11, when the bridge was closed in many respects, trucks were lined up down the 401. The government solution of the day was to put out porta-potties for the truckers. There still is no action plan to deal with those situations right now, despite my asking the previous administration a number of times.

We also have upcoming construction on the Windsor-Detroit tunnel plaza. Both of these border crossings are symbiotic. One affects the other, and it affects Sarnia.

When there is alteration and construction, we need to ensure the timelines are there. The city of Windsor is will be doing the construction on the Windsor plaza. It has timelines that require not only budgeting from the province of Ontario and the federal government, but also the municipality. If we do not appropriately plan these things, it will lead to problems.

It is about respect and partnership. Motion No. 3, moved by the Minister of Transport, Infrastructure and Communities and passed, states:

That Bill C-3, in Clause 15, be amended by adding after line 25 on page 7 the following:

Before recommending that a regulation be made under subsection (1), the Minister shall, if in his opinion such is necessary having regard to all the circumstances, consult with the other levels of government in which an international bridge or tunnel is situated and any person who, in the opinion of the Minister, has a direct interest in the matter.

We do that on operational aspects. That is why I was surprised. Maybe it is coming from the bureaucrats or lawyers, I do not know. I do not understand this. I had discussions with the government and it looked like there was a deal. We had all party consent. The bill could have passed by now and it would be all over. However, it pulled back from the deal not only once but twice.

Items were dropped. The NDP had four report stage motions that night. The government said Motions Nos. 2 and 5 were not good. It gave us some good reasons for it and they were dropped. We have not heard the same reasons for these motions because they are consistent with the motion passed at report stage.

I would like to thank the other opposition parties for supporting it. We could have passed the bill with those amendments and would have been done with this already. Until we have some changes, I cannot sit in this place and feel comfortable as a representative of my community with a bill that does not live up to full measure.

The bill has some very important elements to it. We recognize that. We certainly look forward to working with the government on improving those things. We do not have any intent to make this bill worse. I have talked to lawyers with regard to what we are doing, and I still cannot understand the government's position on this.

Other important matters need to be discussed with regard to the bill. New Democrats want to see other changes on border crossings. We would like to see some real changes in border authorities in the future. We would like to see the introduction of some of the elements from the government. We are hoping to put forth legislation. We are working on some right now. We would like to see that happen and there is sincere interest for this.

Second, we would like to see the creation of community reinvestment funds to ameliorate areas that are affected by border congestion and problems. For a number of years people in my area have been pushing for a community investment fund that would deal with the remediation of environmental and other concerns, from toxins and pollutions to the effects of border crossings in those communities. We believe we can accommodate these things without putting a burdensome element on any sector, including the public, the traverses of those crossings, and the people who manage those facilities.

I want to deal somewhat with current protection elements that are in the process now. I do not disregard what the government has said with regard to environmental assessments. It is important that there will to be a process that allows for some consultation. It is very prescriptive and limited in some respects, but it happens. There can be public discourse and that is not a bad thing. However, it is important to note the restriction on that. It does not allow for the full consultation from the top down, from the minister to the province and, hopefully, the municipal level of governments as well.

I will conclude by saying that is a good example. A Liberal member in committee, I believe the member for Vancouver Island North, introduced a motion that would have allowed the twinning of border crossings without any environmental assessments. That is why we believe consultation should be built into this process so we do not have these circumstances in the future. Even the parliamentary secretary picked up on that right away and did a good job on it. He recognized the risks of that. That is why we believe it should be part of the process.

Therefore, I move the following amendment:

That Bill C-3, An Act respecting international bridges and tunnels and making a consequential amendment to another Act, be not now read a third time but be referred back to the Standing Committee on Transport, Infrastructure and Communities for the purpose of reconsidering clauses 7 and 24 with a view to examine the balance between the rights of the Minister and the needs for consultation with other levels of government and affected communities.

[The Acting Speaker, Andrew Scheer]

The amendment is in order.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for Windsor West for the dedication and the commitment he has shown on this issue, and also for recommending a way forward from this point. The member spent the bulk of his speech pointing out the reservations that he had with Bill C-3 going forward unamended as it was.

From what I understand from the member's remarks, we also recognized and paid tributes to some of the very necessary aspects in Bill C-3. The member's concern can be embodied in dealing with the two clauses separately.

Given that the member had to terminate his speech by moving the motion, could take the opportunity to explain the impact of the amendment that he has recommended in reconsidering clauses 7 and 24? Does that mean that the rest of the bill could go ahead? Is it only clauses 7 and 24 that would be referred back to the committee? Could he perhaps expand on the strategy here?

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Mr. Speaker, the whole bill would go back to committee, but we would specifically examine clauses 7 and 24. The motion also indicates quite strongly that it is unnecessary to deal with other matters in the bill. We have shown that there is some wide range support for it. I think all members of the House would see that as well.

It is important to note that we have tried to work with the government extensively. I give the government credit, it did hold meetings with us and consulted us. At the end of the day, the government never listened to that consultation. This is what gives me great concern. All I am asking for is a guarantee of consultation.

Even if the bill were to go forward with my amendments, there is no protection, ultimately, of what could happen in the community. The only protection would be due process. To give support to the bill, we need that important component in it. That is all we seek.

I have been criticized for not moving amendments earlier, but the process is the process. The amendments have been on the order paper for weeks, especially the report stage amendments.

The government had an idea and an indication of my concerns during the process. This is why the NDP would like to clean up those two elements. That is all it would be. This is similar to the deal that we thought we had with the government. The government along with other opposition parties went back on the deal. They supported the unanimous consent. We would have passed the bill in its entirety.

By cleaning up those two elements, it will give us a sense of comfort. More important, it will provide a better bill, not only for my constituents of Windsor West, but for all Canadians across the country.

It is a healthier environment when we can lay out the elements of consultation and what that means. That builds partnerships. Partnerships are very important. The movement and the secure and free flow of goods and services through our communities to the United States is paramount to our country's success, and we have to manage that on a regular basis.

I have often argued for a public border authority in the Windsor region, based upon the principle that we need to operate the border as a business, one that is efficient and one that has rules, regulations and oversight. Right now we do not do that in my constituency. That is why it is important we have these clauses. They build the natural partnerships that are important.

This is also about accountability as well. The people who throw up their hands and say there will be lawsuits, are the people who are not interested in consultation anyway. They are looking for weasel ways to get around having to hold meaningful discussion in the first place. We can do that. It happens on a regular basis. We can have those types of consultations, discussions and prescriptions and they can be done in a thoughtful and progressive way and in partnerships.

It is not a partnership when we allow a minister to become the unilateral authority without any accountability whatsoever. All we are asking for is to have this as part of this bill, hence the amendment I have proposed.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Transport]

Mr. Speaker, I am glad the member recognizes that it took a member of the Conservative government to worry about the environment and ensure nothing would be done without an environmental assessment. This speaks volumes about this Conservative government and its interest in the environment.

I wonder if the member could answer a question about environmental legislation. In my speech I referred to environmental legislation that we already have that requires consultation in relation to what the member is asking for. Quite frankly, what he is asking for is beyond the scope of the bill.

The member mentioned that the municipalities know better the security threat that would involve their particular area. The head of CSIS commented that the only way to stop terrorism in Canada, which we have seen recently, was through the intelligence organizations of the federal government such as CSIS. These organizations have indicated that they need more money in order to be effective in this way.

Let us take a practical example. The minister finds out through CSIS that there is a threat to a bridge, to a tunnel or to some sort of international crossing. The member is suggesting that the minister would need to go on a consultation tour around that area and consult with probably five cities and five different councils which have different priorities, five to ten different school boards, at least one or two provinces and one or two states, and other levels of government that we have not even talked about here. We are talking about a terrorist threat to a bridge or a tunnel that could take up to one or two years of consultation. The member is suggesting that consultation should be required in cases involving the security and safety of Canadians crossing an international border.

I wonder how the member's constituents would feel about that many levels of bureaucracy and taking a year to solve a terrorist threat.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I am surprised and shocked by the parliamentary secretary's question because I accepted, in good faith, an amendment proposed by the government which would allow security provisions for the minister.

It is important to note that right now the government relies on the Windsor police force to show up at the Ambassador Bridge plaza as well as the tunnel plaza to do the work because there are no federal people to stop the security risks which are happening on a regular basis. The government also relies on municipal first responders to take care of any problems at the borders, such as a fire, a safety issue or other type of issue. No overall plan was proposed by the previous government and none has been proposed by the Conservative government. The government must rely on these people to protect the citizens there. My constituents trust the people in their communities who serve them on a regular basis and do so on good faith.

All we are asking for is some consultation. Fearmongering about this consultation is not proper. I am talking specifically about my area but security risks happen in other areas. There are only 24 regions to begin with and 22 of them already have various levels of government involved in their operations. The ones that do not have government involvement will require some consultation. It can happen properly and efficiently. It has been a problem in the past but we can solve it now with this bill. The people in my community do trust that their city councillors, their school board trustees and other responders will at least have a voice at the table.

The bill calls for the minister to use his best discretion in a national security crisis situation. We would never hold that up. We understand there could be times when that could happen and we support that part of the bill, which is why we accepted the friendly amendment that was put forward for the minister to have some discretion. What we are looking for is a planning process that starts with the regular flow of trade and services that are not under a national security threat.

Officials for the Ambassador Bridge hire a municipal police contingent to oversee some of its security. They are already part of that security.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I want to pay tribute to the commitment my colleague has to this issue. For the number of years that I have known him he has been a tireless champion of the free movement of goods and services across international borders for trade purposes with special attention to national security issues. No one has been more outspoken on this issue. It is fitting then that when someone with his background and expertise blows the whistle on legislation that may be faulty or have shortcomings we should take note.

We as Parliament should be seized of this issue. I am satisfied, given the arguments that I have heard, that this amendment is justified and that the bill should be sent back to committee for the specific purposes of reconsidering at least clauses 7 and 24 which deal specifically with the duty to consult.

No one denies that Bill C-3 was necessary to complete the work that began as Bill C-44 in the previous Parliament to finally put some regulatory regime to the development of new or the expansion and rehabilitation of existing bridges and tunnels which cross international borders. We welcome this. It is overdue.

However, in our haste we should not ignore the basic principle of natural justice, which is the duty to consult. More learned people than I have pointed out that consultation has legal meaning. It means more than simply telling Canadians what we intend to do to them. It means inviting their views and accommodating some of those views when those views have merit.

We have all seen sham consultations where the touring task force blows into town, rents the local town hall and, with a very fancy power point presentation, announces what the government intends to do to people with their tax dollars. Objections are raised at all the microphones as to why this should be done differently and the bureaucrats pack up their books and their power point presentations and go off to the next town. At the end of the process we read in the newspapers that consultation took place in 33 Canadians communities and therefore they are ramming ahead with the legislation. That is not consultation.

My colleague for Skeena—Bulkley Valley just said, “Just ask first nations about the federal government”. I am not critical so much of the current federal government because it has not been in government long enough, but the past record of federal governments in this country in their dealings with first nations have made an appalling travesty of any semblance of true consultation.

My colleague from Windsor West was talking about consultation. He rose today on an issue of principle. He is not arguing about the merits of the bill so much as with the shortcoming in the bill that he cannot live with. I cannot live with it either based on his recommendation.

If the bill is all about the free movement of goods and services, expanding, accommodating and facilitating trade, it should have no barriers in the way of consultation. I cannot imagine the government allowing such an important issue to be tripped up by the denial of such a basic and fundamental right; the right to consult, the duty to consult and the duty to accommodate in the context of what one has heard.

I do not accept the fearmongering that we heard from the parliamentary secretary, that the duty to consult is so onerous, as contemplated by my colleague's amendment, that it would grind the process to a halt even in the event of national security. He said that in the event of a terrorist threat if the minister were duty bound to consult everybody and their grandmother, the terrorists would be running roughshod over us. That is nonsense.

There are other security measures in Canada where the ministers have broad sweeping powers to take what actions are necessary in the interest of national security. That kind of fearmongering trivializes an important debate and it does not do any of us a service to deviate from the issues of the day with that kind of thing.

I thought that the duty to consult all levels of government or interested parties was the norm in any situation like that. I was surprised by the parliamentary secretary's vehement reaction to that idea. Let us look at the language being proposed here. It would be helpful if we all started from the same base level of information in the debate.

What is being proposed is that, “before recommending that a regulation be made...the minister shall consult with the other levels of government that have jurisdiction over any place where an international bridge or tunnel is situated...”. That is not too onerous. That is just common sense. It continues with, “...and with any person who, in the opinion of a minister, has a direct interest in the matter...”.

What if private property is involved? What if a school or a school board needs to be consulted? With the tools and the bureaucracies at the minister's disposal, surely this level of consultation would not grind things to a halt.

We are not talking about the chamber of commerce. The minister used the example that, for heaven's sake, we will have to consult with everybody and their grandmother and that levels of government could mean chambers of commerce. Chambers of commerce are not governments. They are organizations that are part of civil society. The way this is phrased, “...if, in the opinion of the minister, that individual has a direct interest in the matter...”, the minister may decide that he does not have to consult with the chamber of commerce.

Let us be realistic and honest in our debate. What we are talking about, I think, is a basic fundamental principle and the amendment, to which I am trying to limit my remarks, addresses a concern that I certainly share.

When I was the aboriginal affairs critic for the NDP, I remember when we went through a contentious piece of legislation that would have affected the lives of aboriginal people, first nations. At that time, during our research and demanding that true consultation take place, I looked at some of the Supreme Court rulings that made reference to consultation. That was where I learned that the duty to consult meant far more than just engaging in a dialogue. The duty to consult includes some reasonable accommodation. If the other party makes a valid point and there is no compelling reason to ignore that point, then we are duty bound to accommodate that point if we want to claim there was consultation.

Consultation is often one of the stepping stones to infringing on a person's rights. There are times when it is justified to infringe on a person's rights, whether they are human rights, property rights, et cetera, but the courts have held that in such a situation there are two things that must take place in order to justify infringement of a person's rights, and the first aspect of that is the duty to consult in a thorough and comprehensive manner.

I enjoyed listening to the speech from my colleague from Windsor West because he kept bringing us back to the key salient point of what we are debating on two levels. First, he reminded us that we had an obligation to be thorough, complete and to make good laws. Each day in the House of Commons we begin the day with a prayer that reminds members of Parliament how duty bound we are to take every step possible to make good laws.

In the profound and well-defined conscience of my colleague from Windsor West, we would not be making good laws if we passed into law Bill C-3 without clarification on this duty to consult, without the natural justice associated with the obligation of the minister to consult.

He also reminded us of another worrisome trend. This is a theme, almost a motif that threaded its way throughout the entire Liberal regime of 13 years, that almost every piece of legislation that I have had to deal with since I have been a member of Parliament, most of them introduced by the Liberal government, expanded the discretionary powers of the minister and undermined the powers of Parliament to have the final say and, in this case, the powers of various levels of government.

My colleague from Windsor West has drawn our attention to this in the bill. Again, without this duty to consult being folded in and factored into the bill, the discretionary authority of the minister is enhanced once again, where ultimately it will be the minister who will decide what, when, where and how much to do with any new bridge or tunnel on an international crossing, and there are 24 such sites, or even the expansion, renovation or development of an existing crossing.

That should be worrisome. That is a trend that undermines the authority of Parliament. It gives too much power to the executive and not enough power where it should properly reside, which is with us the elected legislators and the legitimately elected representatives of other levels of government.

I am very surprised that the Bloc did not find fault with this. My colleagues from the Bloc Québécois are usually the first to remind us when a minister oversteps jurisdiction. I have heard a great deal of hue and cry from my colleagues from the Bloc when the federal government puts in place legislation that even hints at the fact it may be able to exercise control over another jurisdiction, in their case a provincial jurisdiction, without even the duty to consult. Surely that offends the sensibilities of my colleagues from the Bloc Québécois. It certainly offends mine.

There are bogus arguments abounding throughout this debate. I do not understand the resistance and reluctance on the part of opposition parties to insist that the bill be the best it can be. I found the official opposition members' arguments so vague and nebulous that they have almost no opinion. They do not have any opinion on Bill C-2, the most earth shattering and life changing piece of legislation in this Parliament surely. They have no opinion on that. They have no opinion on Bill C-3. They do not want to take part in pressing the Minister of the Environment to be a better minister of the environment. I do not know what they are doing to earn their keep lately, but they have an obligation to get involved in the debate as the official opposition. They seem to be willing to leave being the official opposition to the NDP. We do not mind assuming that role, but we would expect a little support from time to time on some of these pressing issues.

I will not dwell on that because I feel strongly about this issue. I have been invigorated and inspired by the speech given by my colleague from Windsor West and his dedication to the issue. He reminded us of the critical importance of international crossings. Until today I was not aware that there are 24 such crossing points.

The one we have heard most about is the Ambassador Bridge going from Windsor to Detroit. A lot of Canadians would probably be surprised to learn that the bridge is privately owned. Given that 40% of Canada's trade with the United States crosses at that very juncture, that the Province of Ontario would be the United States' fourth largest trading partner were it a nation, from a national security and public policy point of view or virtually any way we consider this, it is surprising that the bridge is a privately owned enterprise. We would think the jurisdiction and control and the expansion of it would be of such public importance that we would want it to be a public enterprise. It gets to be a matter of Canadian sovereignty, as my colleague pointed out.

We test the merits of an argument by challenging the argument. We can test the mettle of a piece of legislation by whether it can survive intelligent debate in the House of Commons. All I have heard so far is boosterism for a bill that has a serious, fundamental flaw and has had very little critical analysis. There has been lots of analysis of some of the merits of the bill, with which we do not disagree. There has been lots of analysis of the need for the bill, with which we do not disagree, but no one seems willing to get into an exchange with us, or with my colleague from Windsor West who moved the motions anyway, about the idea of consultation.

Where is the debate in this place? We would think there would be an appetite to have a real exchange on such a fundamental principle as the duty to consult. It is something upon which the Supreme Court has commented on many occasions. I feel duty bound to incorporate those principles into virtually all pieces of legislation that come through here.

There should be a screen through which all pieces of legislation should be viewed, to make sure they pass basic tests of ethics, of fairness, of accommodating basic principles that we as Canadians stipulate ourselves to. We want to be operating at the highest possible standards of ethical practices, of principles of fairness and equity with a duty to consult.

Let us think this through. Taxpayers' dollars can be used to change their atmosphere and environment without an opportunity to have meaningful input as to how that takes place. It is almost taxation without representation. Revolutions have been fought on basic issues like this. Canadians have a right to participate in the way that our tax dollars are being spent, up to and including a bridge being built in their backyard or expanding an existing bridge that is in their backyard.

It is one of those basic things that I would demand as a citizen, the right to full participation. Any government that did not want to listen to my views is not worthy of being my government. That is the way I would view it and I would certainly deal with that at the ballot box the next time around.

Bill C-3 is a component of Bill C-44 which, if we remember from the 38th Parliament, was an omnibus bill that died on the order paper. It was an ambitious omnibus bill that was set out to modernize the entire Canada transportation system really, with a Railway Safety Act and a new Via Rail Canada Act. What we are seeing with Bill C-3 is a hiving off of a section of a complex bill that died because of a lack of support from the rail line companies. It got complex.

The Conservatives opposed Bill C-44. All of these elements of Bill C-3 and others would be in effect today were it not for the Conservatives blocking the previous omnibus bill because they felt that Via Rail should be privatized and not accommodated with its own act. They opposed some of the changes in regard to monopolies and the selling off of rail lines and railcars, et cetera.

When we got Bill C-3 back, it was the most necessary, the most time sensitive component of a much larger and, I would argue, an equally necessary review of the entire Canada transportation strategy. That strategy, we should point out, is incomplete if we do not recognize the east-west dynamic as well as the north-south. I live in Winnipeg where the Red River corridor is a north-south corridor for trade, for the movement of goods and services that we value very much, but we should not value it at the expense of the necessary trade and transportation links, both east and west.

A country that is as geographically challenged as Canada must be seized of the issue of transportation. We would not have opened up the west without that commitment and without enabling the prairie farmers to move their grain with some accommodation by the federal government.

When we heard the member for Windsor West argue passionately for the details of how this affects his riding, I hope Canadians understood the motivation of my colleague. Some of the things he was explaining about the Ambassador Bridge cry out for involvement of other levels of government, of the level of government closest to the people affected.

We do not want to impose change from Ottawa. It fuels resentment of Ottawa when change comes from above without the participation of that local level of government. No one knows the facts on the ground better than the good people who are elected to represent people at the municipal and provincial levels in that area.

There are such complicating circumstances associated with the Ambassador Bridge, with 10,000 trucks per day lined up, idling, belching pollutants all over the school grounds, et cetera. How can we say that we would not consult with the local school board, or bypass that level of government, when some of the very air quality problems that are created by the inadequate Ambassador Bridge affect school children? How can we be so callous as to ignore those legitimately elected representatives?

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate my colleague's wide ranging remarks on consultation. I would like to ask a couple of pointed questions.

He and his colleague are asserting in the motion that there needs to be a reference back to the standing committee to reconsider clauses 7 and 24. First of all, could the member tell the House what is the state of consultation requirements today with respect to anything that the bill addresses? If he does not actually know what the state of consultation is today, how can he assert that it is deficient?

The second question I put to the member concerns his definition of consultation, which is an interesting one. I have not seen it ever reflected in a judicial opinion. I have not seen it in conducting consultation in over 40 national consultation processes in the last decade before I entered elected office.

The member talks about consultation and almost implies that consultation means a seat at the table, and not only a seat at the table but the party being compelled to attend, or that there has to be a manifestation of the views of that party that is going to be consulted in the outcome.

Consultation has always meant consulting. It does not mean necessarily that the parties being consulted are going to get their way. It does not mean that they are going to have to see their views ultimately reflected in the outcome. From whence does he derive his definition of consultation?

He has asserted here twice now that the previous government undermined the powers of Parliament. He has asserted that we expanded the discretionary powers for ministers over 13 years. Asserting something does not make it so. Where is the evidence for either of those claims?

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Mr. Speaker, clearly the member for Ottawa South was listening to my remarks and I appreciate that.

I should begin by saying that no one is calling for the right to veto. We are calling for the duty of consultation. There is a separation.

I think he will find a good definition of consultation in Supreme Court rulings in Delgamuukw, Sparrow, and a number of other aboriginal issues, and I think Haida had the consummate definition of consultation as being accepted, as growing and evolving. Through jurisprudence we are finding a greater need to give better definition to the term “consultation”. In successive Supreme Court rulings is how these things evolve and mature and so does our understanding of the term “consultation” mature. I doubt that our definition of consultation will ever grow to the point where there will be a right to veto included in the duty of consultation.

I hope that helps to clarify the matter for my colleague.

As far as the worrisome trend I find with expanding the discretionary powers of the minister at the expense of Parliament, expanding the arbitrary powers of the executive at the expense of the elected body, I do not think anyone can deny this is a worrisome trend that has been identified by academics for the last 20 years, but most profoundly in the last 10.

I put the challenge back to my colleague. Show me a piece of legislation that did not have some clause at least in its original draft that did not expand the power, the authority of the minister at the expense of the legislative arena. That was the pattern. Often we interrupted that. Often we were able to nip that in the bud, but previous Liberal governments came back and tried again and again with virtually every piece of legislation that I have been associated with in my nine years in the House of Commons.

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Mr. Speaker, my colIeague's comments on the amendment and the bill are very important. I think the whole issue of consultation merits some digging in of heels. It is a serious deficiency in the legislation. We have a piece of consultation, but we have not walked the full distance on this issue.

I think my colleague is right to talk about the sham consultation. It is something we have seen in the past when there was not a serious intent to consult with people directly affected. It seems ironic to hear this talk from a government that talks about grassroots democracy so much. It talks about wanting to hear from Canadians about the issues of the day, about wanting the input of Canadians on the issues of the day, yet when it comes to actually setting up the mechanisms to do that in important areas such as international bridges, it is unwilling to entertain the actual amendments that would do this important work.

In my own constituency, although we do not have an international bridge, we are faced with a highway construction project, the gateway project to improve trade with the Far East, the Pacific Rim. We have heard about the supposed need to expand a major bridge across the Fraser River and the major Highway 1 that goes through my constituency.

We have seen a consultation process that people in my constituency have a terrible problem with. We have attended open houses that display the intent of the project. There are great, shiny, glorious posters and fancy pamphlets, but the actual meaningful consultation was almost non-existent. We have seen group consultations with special invited guests. How do we get on the list? Nobody seems to know.

There are serious deficiencies with that kind of consultation, so this issue is very important to people in Burnaby—Douglas even though Bill C-3 does not necessarily affect us directly. I would ask my colleague from Winnipeg if he could expand on that, especially when he says that often the excuse is made that consultation is just too onerous a process, that it will put off important decisions, and that it puts off important decisions around our trading arrangements. Why is it that trade always seems to trump the needs of our neighbourhoods and our citizens and ultimately sometimes even human rights in this country and around the world?

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Mr. Speaker, my colleague does point out a worrisome trend, which is that even grassroots parties, or parties that seem to feature themselves as grassroots parties to get elected, often seem willing to trample on that very concept of consulting with the grassroots at their first opportunity once they assume power.

It is only months into a new government and we are having this argument about whether the government should or should not consult with lesser governments before it imposes some kind of massive development in their backyards. I think that consultation would be in keeping with exactly the principles that the government espoused and under which it was elected.

I think it is one thing that we share, in fact, with the roots of that party. The NDP has always prided itself on being a grassroots organization too. I would like to believe that when we form the first NDP federal government we will be more true to our commitments to consult with the grassroots and to maintain that link with the grassroots. There is something about power.

This may be my last opportunity to speak in the House of Commons in this session of this Parliament and, in these final moments, I would acknowledge how civil this debate is today. Of all the people that I have heard on this issue, the former leader of the NDP, Ed Broadbent, at the end of the last Parliament, implored parliamentarians to try to elevate the standard of civil debate in the House of Commons. I think it is starting to take. I believe that we can win our arguments based on merit, not on who can shout the loudest. Most of us here today agree, I believe, that sometimes we are embarrassed with the antics.

Whether this argument comes down in our favour or not, I have had the opportunity to express my views without being heckled or ridiculed or catcalled. It is a refreshing change. I find it is so much comfortable. If a member's idea cannot survive free and open debate, then perhaps the idea did not have that much merit, but we should not try to win it on the basis of shouting down the other person. I think there is a lesson in that for all of us.

I want to close by saying that the amendment put forward by my colleague for Windsor West was put forward in the spirit of trying to make this the best bill it could possibly be. There is no mischief. There is no political motivation. I hope it is received in that same vein.

[Tony Martin, NDP, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the opportunity to rise in the House today to add a few comments on this important debate about an issue that has been championed so energetically, so well and so intelligently by the member for Windsor West. I know of the passion he has for this, his understanding of the issue and the commitment he has made, and I am impressed.

The first question that people watching this might be asking is this one: what is the big deal?

Why is it that we are driving this piece of work here this morning? This is a rather important bill before the House that is going to change the way we manage and govern some very important pieces of infrastructure involving our connectedness with our neighbours to the south. Why are we focused on this little piece at the end of the day, which in some people's minds may not make such a big difference? I have to say that in fact it does make a big difference and it really is important.

As we look at the way our economy is evolving today and the need for us to be connected in some very real and meaningful ways to the world, to the global economy, and most particularly to our neighbours to the south, we begin to understand how important the minutia, the details, are when we discuss and are involved in making plans about and determining the nature of our connectedness with the United States of America. Our bridges and tunnels are ways of getting back and forth across the border. They are really very important and are actually the key to any economic success we will have going forward.

This is actually a chance for us. I thank the government for bringing this bill forward. This needed to be done. We needed to look at the way we manage our bridges and tunnels. Until now, it has been complicated and a bit of a patchwork. Some tunnels and bridges are owned by the private sector. Some have commissions that are locally based. Some are governed by the federal government. There is no real consistency and no real thought-out pattern involved in the way the bridges and tunnels have been managed.

They are too important for us not to be doing this. The bridges and tunnels are too important for us not to be asking the important questions that the member for Windsor West has been asking in committee and in the House since this bill was tabled a few months ago. He and his cohort, his partner from Windsor, the member for Windsor—Tecumseh, have been unrelenting in their pursuit of this piece of important interaction for the federal government as it decides what these bridges and tunnels will look like, whether they will expand or not, whether they will be repaired or not, and how it will deal with and respond to some of the very real issues that come up time and time again in communities where bridges, tunnels and ferries exist.

These issues do come up. The level of traffic back and forth between Canada and the United States over the last 20 or so years has risen exponentially. It has caused some of the problems that we are experiencing today, which is actually why we in the House are debating this bill. We in the New Democratic Party caucus are insisting that when decisions are made going forward, flowing out of this bill concerning these important pieces of infrastructure, municipal and local governments be consulted, because everything that happens in relation to bridges has a serious impact on the communities.

To give an example of how important the issue of the border crossings is, in the last Parliament and again in this one, an all party caucus of Parliament was formed. Members of every party and every caucus in this place gather on a regular basis to talk about the issues, to consult with each other, to hear from each other, and to be helpful to each other in how we give advice not only to our government but to the American government on how we manage, take care of and run our bridges and tunnels, the means of getting back and forth between the two countries. We bring in guest speakers. In the last Parliament, we had Ambassador Cellucci come and talk to us about the issue of security at the bridges and the tunnels.

Security is a very important issue. Again, this is why it is important that the federal government take on this responsibility. It is also, I think, why it is very important that the government consult with the local communities. Where issues of security are concerned, there has to be cooperation among the federal, provincial and local authorities if we are going to be effective in dealing with challenges that might present themselves at those institutions.

It is actually rather telling that a large number of members of Parliament gathered here over a year ago to meet, to talk with and to hear from Ambassador Cellucci in terms of some of his perceptions and understandings, and to share with him what ours were and get a good dialogue going. Significant numbers of members of Parliament now have actually travelled to Washington to be in consultation with some of the officials in the United States, and again, to talk about the border, how we manage this border that is common both to us, and how we put in place facilities and structures that will be most convenient for everybody concerned.

Again, we have to start, I believe, and this is what the member for Windsor West is saying every time he gets up on his feet in this place to talk to us, challenge us, inform and enlighten us and educate us about this issue. He is saying that we cannot do this effectively, that we cannot hope to be successful in the initiatives we take on, the investments we make and the developments we work with, if we are not talking directly with local government, if we do not have some method or way of getting input and consulting with local government.

As the member said so eloquently this morning in his comments, it is at the local level that we know best. We are closest to the action at the local level. Local politicians live, eat and breathe these issues on a daily basis. They watch the trucks go over. They watch the long lineups. They see the impact it has on local neighbourhoods as those trucks go through and as they stop to get serviced or whatever. The local level needs to be consulted.

I just have to look at my own community of Sault Ste. Marie, where we have a very important bridge that connects Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario with Sault Ste. Marie, Michigan. It has become, in many ways, a central piece in the further economic development of not only our city but our whole region. What happens to that bridge is critical. The expansion of that bridge, hopefully, the development of the infrastructure at both ends of the bridge where we deal with people coming and going, and the mall that needs to be put up so we can increase commerce with that piece of infrastructure, this is all critical. It is a really important part of the economic development planned strategy that we have going forward in Sault Ste. Marie.

We have begun to think about, work on and make significant investments as a local community in the possibility of a multi-modal transportation hub in Sault Ste. Marie. If members look at Sault Ste. Marie on the map they will see that it is dead centre in the middle of Canada. Not only that, if we expand the map further, it is dead centre in the middle of North America.

[An hon. member]

Come on.

[Tony Martin, NDP, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

Yes, it is. The member for Winnipeg Centre probably thinks Winnipeg is, but I would argue with him that in fact if he looks at the map more carefully and takes the bigger view that is there, he will see that Sault Ste. Marie actually is at the centre of North America. It is a very important hub and we are trying to take advantage of that.

In the context of today's discussion on this government bill to have the federal government manage those pieces of infrastructure, it is absolutely essential that it be in conversation on a regular basis with the local authorities. It must be in regular conversation with those people who on a daily basis are putting together plans, developing thoughts and ideas, working with other levels of government such as the provincial government and other municipalities in order to take full advantage of the strategic location in Sault Ste. Marie.

We are at the hub of the Great Lakes. Sault Ste. Marie connects Lake Superior with Lake Huron with Lake Michigan, three of the biggest Great Lakes. The bridge is the one piece of infrastructure that links them in a meaningful way and allows traffic to go back and forth between our two countries and those three Great Lakes.

The federal government is mistaken if it thinks for a second that it can unilaterally in all of its splendour and position of authority make decisions about that bridge without consulting the people of Sault Ste. Marie. The people of Sault Ste. Marie see themselves as an important part of this country and they send their member of Parliament here to speak on their behalf. If the government thinks it can go ahead and make decisions about that piece of infrastructure without consulting those folks, it is wrong.

I am hoping that with this debate today, with the back and forth and the very respectful nature of that discussion, the government might come to its senses. There is time. We still have a significant bit of time this afternoon before we get to question period. I am hoping the government will sit down with the member for Windsor West, the member for Windsor—Tecumseh and others from every party in the House who are involved in this really important discussion. I am hoping for a satisfactory agreement that we who speak on behalf of the people we represent at the local level will be engaged in a meaningful way in any decisions that are made.

When I was the member for Sault Ste. Marie in the provincial parliament I had the privilege to take part in organizing a trade delegation from our area to Ireland and Finland. We were selling the opportunity to come to Sault Ste. Marie, make investments, set up shop, bring what they do or the product they produce to our part of North America and from there to transport it easily across the border into the midwest United States of America where there is a market of millions and millions of people.

In discussions with those people they asked how they would get their goods or services from Sault Ste. Marie into that very lucrative and exciting market. I would mention almost immediately the bridge, knowing in the back of mind that the bridge needs work, particularly if we are going to take advantage of the potential that is there. If we are going to become a multimodal hub to attract investment from Europe into Canada, into our region of northern Ontario so that from there people can sell into the midwest United States, we need to focus, invest and work very hard to develop the potential for traffic to move more quickly across that bridge than it is moving now. The bridge needs to be expanded. It needs more resources in order to build up the facilities. It needs more personnel.

The government needs to be in consultation with the city of Sault Ste. Marie and its economic development arm and to be willing to partner. There is nothing we do in any community in Canada where economic development is concerned where partnership is not required. The community invests the money it gets from its own citizens. With that it tries to lever money from the provincial government. Then it goes to the federal government and says there is money in the pot from the municipal sector, from the provincial sector and the private sector has an interest because the private sector sees it as possibly enhancing its opportunities.

Communities ask the federal government for some investment and in turn the federal government rightly asks what the project is. The project my community is focused on is that transportation hub and how we get our products into the market south of the border. My community is focused on the bridge.

I have written letters to the Minister of Transport both in the last Parliament and during this Parliament to share some of the wonderful opportunities that exist in Sault Ste. Marie. I have told the minister of some of the challenges we are facing if we want to make this happen. I have suggested that the government needs to be generous. It needs to be willing to come to the table and be a partner. It needs to see the potential.

In the context of this bill and the request that is being made by the member for Windsor West, there needs to be consultation. We want the federal government to be involved directly and intimately in running, managing and taking care of the bridge that connects Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario with Sault Ste. Marie, Michigan.

We have a role to play. We have things to say. We have thoughts and ideas that are important and valuable. If the government works with us and the partners we have already brought to the table, we could make investments that would produce positive and exciting results. The government needs to contribute in a more generous way to the further economic development of our area.

A cookie cutter approach does not work. It does not work for any level of government to take something off the shelf and apply it to another circumstance. It does not always fit. Trying to fit a square peg into a round hole does not work. We have to be thoughtful, intelligent and understanding of the contributions people bring to the table and in this instance, the contribution that people from local jurisdictions brought to the table.

This debate is important and valuable. I asked what was the big deal; after a fairly lengthy committee process and time in the House, I wondered why the member for Windsor West was insisting that the amendment be made. I have said over the last 20 minutes that the amendment is needed because we have to understand the valuable contributions people at the local level make to further develop these pieces of infrastructure. This is not only about traffic or security measures. It is about the future of our communities. It is about the future of our regions. It is about the future of our country.

In the last hours before we break for the summer and we go back to work in our communities with our constituents, I would ask that the government in its wisdom see a way to adopt the amendment put forward by the member for Windsor West. In the spirit of good relations in the House this morning, I ask that the government sit down with him and find a way to honour the deep commitment and passion and sense of importance that he brings to this discussion and move this amendment forward so we can pass this bill today.

The House resumed consideration of the motion that Bill C-3, An Act respecting international bridges and tunnels and making a consequential amendment to another Act, be read the third time and passed, and of the amendment.

[Denise Savoie, NDP, Victoria, BC]

Mr. Speaker, unlike my colleague from Sault Ste. Marie, I cannot claim that my riding of Victoria is the centre of North America, as the city sits right on the Pacific Ocean. However, I do appreciate the wisdom of the amendment to require that the federal government consult with local government. As Victoria is a port of entry for many ships, I have seen the increased requirements for security and the costs that those involve.

I am wondering if my colleague would explain to us how he sees the consultation will improve the situation that municipalities, local governments and cities are facing with respect to some of these issues.

[Tony Martin, NDP, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

Mr. Speaker, it is indeed a central consideration to this amendment.

In my community's instance, there is an authority that oversees our bridge. Some very active and effective organizations in the community are looking at the further development of our city and its economic future. If there were in place a regular opportunity to sit down and talk with the federal government, we could bring lots of things to the table that would lend to further developments and improvements for the bridge in our city.

If we are going to become a multimodal hub, if we are going to realize some of the potential given our geographic location at the centre of North America, then we need to be in consultation with the level of government that manages and controls the central piece of infrastructure, the bridge. We need to be talking to that level of government about the kinds of investments that need to be made not only in the bridge but in all of the infrastructure that leads up to and away from the bridge.

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I know how crucial this issue is to the member's community of Sault Ste. Marie.

I wonder if my colleague might comment on the fact that the bill right now includes consultation for operation of international bridges and tunnels, but it does not include consultation for the sale or resale, the construction or alterations to those important pieces of infrastructure. Those can have an important effect on the communities where these bridges and tunnels are located. They can have a really crucial effect on the development of those communities, on the livelihoods of the people who live there, on the quality of life for people who live near these important structures.

I wonder if he could comment on why he would think there would be any opposition to ensuring that consultation was in place when sale or resale, construction or alteration was involved with our international bridges and tunnels.

[Tony Martin, NDP, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

Mr. Speaker, that is an excellent question, particularly given that we have a mish-mash of ownership across the country right now and control of bridges of tunnels.

Bridges can be sold and bought in a way that does not take into account the impact that it will have on the local community and the local area, so those kinds of considerations are certainly crucial.

I am lucky in my own community. We have an authority. We have a publicly owned and managed facility. That authority does excellent work in maintaining and managing the bridge, but it needs the help of the federal government. It needs to be in consultation on a regular basis with the federal government in partnership with the community to see what else needs to be done and to talk about the future of the bridge.

We hope we will see that for all of our bridges as we go forward because they are such important pieces of infrastructure. Considering some of the issues and concerns we have today around terrorism, we hope that more and more of those bridges will be bought up, owned and controlled by the federal government.

We will have a vehicle out of the bill that is being passed here today to actually have the federal government, which then owns those facilities, to be in consultation regularly with the local community as we consider how we move forward, make further investments, and develop those important pieces of infrastructure.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the comments from my colleague from Sault Ste. Marie who has done terrific work with his community. It is important to acknowledge that the member has been very good about having an involvement, not only just in terms of people around him advising him with regard to this but also the municipality.

I would ask the member for Sault Ste. Marie if he believes the border authority commission, which he has in his community, has been of benefit to the community in many respects? In my area, where we do not have any border authority, there is basically no overall jurisdiction whatsoever to help coordinate the traffic. We have a worse situation.

Maybe the member could comment on the fact that there is an accountability process through his border authority, which I do not currently have in my region.

[Tony Martin, NDP, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I think our authority is an example of how good relationships between levels of government and public ownership and public control of a bridge can reduce some of the difficulties and challenges where bridges are concerned.

We have an excellent authority. We have local membership on that authority and those members are appointed in consultation with our community and are in constant communication with the powers that be in Sault Ste. Marie, and I think that is very valuable.

What we are asking for today by way of an amendment to the bill is that it be formalized, that there be regular consultation among the federal government, the local authority, and the local community around issues of impact as we expand these facilities, for example, in areas of the environment.

In our community, we have just cut a new roadway which is named after a previous member of Parliament for Sault Ste. Marie who passed away last summer, Carmen Provenzano. The community decided to name the roadway coming from the highway north and the highway east to the bridge, crossing the St. Mary's River and into Michigan, Carmen's Way. Some members who knew Carmen may be interested.

However, it speaks to the very positive and valuable contribution that publicly owned and controlled bridges with authorities, with a more formal opportunity to consult with the local community, can have on the development of those facilities.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate my colleague's response. I would like to ask him about the issue of planning in the region with regard to safety and security.

I know that we are working toward having support in terms of training for first responders, especially if there is a crisis, whether it be hazardous materials or security issues. That is where we need to build stronger partnerships for safer and sounder communities. That is why we need to develop national strategies for that.

My local government as well as the provincial government, and I actually give credit to the federal government for providing me with a recent briefing on hazardous materials, which was very helpful, have been talking about those issues.

I would ask my colleague whether or not there should be more planning with regard to those measures to protect public safety?

[Tony Martin, NDP, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

Mr. Speaker, absolutely, that would be crucial. As a matter of fact, in my community we have the authority that manages the bridge. We have our city council and our economic development corporation. We also have contribution from the provincial and federal governments to build the infrastructure that will be necessary if we are going to expand and take advantage of the opportunity that is there given our geographic location.

In building those roads and developing those transportation networks between the highways and the bridge, the local folks at city hall, in consultation with the engineers and the people who build those roads, consider all of those factors. They consider the safety factor and what might happen if a hazardous load comes over. They ensure that the roads are in such condition that we minimize the possibility of any kind of accident happening.

These roads, ultimately at some point, will have to go through neighbourhoods, as they do in Windsor. We have to consider the long lineups that may occur from time to time, the idling of those vehicles, and what impact the emissions will have on the immediate neighbourhood.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Leader of the Government in the House of Commons and Minister for Democratic Reform]

Mr. Speaker, there is a motion coming with respect to the bill in the next couple of minutes, but I do want to say how pleased I am that the bill has been introduced in Parliament. Indeed, it was one of the first bills introduced after the federal accountability act, which is very important to the government.

I commend the Minister of Transport for introducing Bill C-3. There are even similarities in this bill to a bill that was introduced in the last Parliament. One difference is that this bill will be passed. I am very pleased about that.

For the first time since Confederation this gives absolute authority to the federal government to act in a responsible manner that is consistent with environmental principles and consistent with the consultation process that must go on whenever decisions are made on our international borders. I am very pleased that we are moving forward on it.

Indeed, in the past, there has been a collection of various statutes and various ways that international crossings have been constructed. For instance, a number of them have been constructed under the Navigable Waters Protection Act. As important as that particular piece of legislation is, it is important that we have legislation like this which clearly sets out the federal authority with respect to bridges and tunnels.

It will be welcomed in my area of Niagara Falls. I do not know if anyone in this Chamber has more international crossings than I do in the riding of Niagara Falls. I do not know of anyone who has more than four. In any case, it is a great step forward. I am glad to be able to add those few comments to the mix.

The House resumed consideration of the motion that Bill C-3, An Act respecting international bridges and tunnels and making a consequential amendment to another Act, be read the third time and passed, and of the amendment.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Transport]

Mr. Speaker, regarding Bill C-3, the international bridges and tunnels act, in the spirit of cooperation, discussions have taken place among the parties and you will find if you ask that there is unanimous consent for the following:

1. That the amendment from the member for Windsor West be withdrawn.

2. That Bill C-3, Clause 7, be amended by adding after line 5 on page 3 the following:

The Minister may, if in the opinion of the Minister it is necessary having regard to all the circumstances, consult with the other levels of government that have authority in the place where the international bridge or tunnel is, or is to be, situated and with any person who, in the opinion of the Minister, has a direct interest in the matter.

And

3. That, Bill C-3, Clause 24 be amended by adding after line 31 on page 10 the following:

The Minister may, if in the opinion of the Minister it is necessary having regard to all the circumstances, consult with the other levels of government that have authority in the place where the international bridge or tunnel that is the subject of the application is situated and with any person who, in the opinion of the Minister, has a direct interest in the matter.

And then that the bill, as further amended, be deemed to have been read a third time and passed.

I would suggest that this speaks volumes about the Prime Minister, the minister and this government in cooperating to get the job done for Canadians.

[The Speaker, Peter Milliken]

Does the parliamentary secretary have the unanimous consent of the House to propose the motion?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Speaker, Peter Milliken]

The House has heard the terms of the motion. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Speaker, Peter Milliken]

(Motion adopted and bill, as amended, read the third time and passed)

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I rise on another point of order.

We often hear from the government that one region cannot be responsible for another. My colleague from Malpeque, who is the agriculture and agri-food critic asked an important question of the Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food. In his reply the latter gave the impression that because my colleague is from Prince Edward Island he is unable to look into the affairs of the west.

I would like a clarification and an apology on behalf of all Canadians. He is a full Canadian.

[The Speaker, Peter Milliken]

I understand the misgivings of the hon. member from Bourassa, but in my opinion, this is a topic for debate and not a question of privilege or a point of order.

We have a request from the hon. member for Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale.