Bill C-35 (Historical)

An Act to amend the Criminal Code (reverse onus in bail hearings for firearm-related offences)

This enactment amends the Criminal Code to provide that the accused will be required to demonstrate, when charged with certain serious offences involving firearms or other regulated weapons, that pre-trial detention is not justified in their case and to introduce additional factors relating to firearm offences that the courts must take into account in deciding whether an accused should be released or detained pending trial.

Criminal Code

[Brian Murphy, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for Windsor—Tecumseh is incredibly right when he says that none of the Conservative bills have come before us with the attendant packages of what they will cost.

In fact, we could extrapolate. The hon. member from the NDP is indeed experienced enough, and smart enough for sure, to extrapolate the costs if he knew how many more people would be affected by the bail provisions. Bill C-35 comes with no package, information or background, which suggests how many more people will be denied bail by the reverse onus.

Surely responsible government means that one does the studies first and then the costing, and the bill is brought in and then is referred to committee. The way the Conservatives do things is that they write the bill on the back of a napkin, they rush down to the CTV news centre, they get Mr. Duffy to interview them on how tough they are, and then they throw the bill to a committee whose members who may not understand all the ramifications of the bill. They have no intention of backing up these bills with the resources. That is some way to run a justice system.

The House resumed consideration of the motion that Bill C-35, An Act to amend the Criminal Code (reverse onus in bail hearings for firearm-related offences), be read the second time and referred to a committee.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to speak to Bill C-35, concerning release on bail.

I must say that the Bloc Québécois, my leader, my colleagues and my colleague from Châteauguay, will not be supporting this bill. Not because the issues raised are not important, but we believe that this government has an insidious reflex, a dangerous propensity and tendency to want to undermine the principles of natural justice.

This bill wants to narrow the important concept of presumption of innocence. There are litigators in this House. I know that the hon. member for Marc-Aurèle-Fortin was an extremely vigorous, formidable and respected attorney.

I have a small anecdote. Yesterday, I was at my last law course on evidence and procedure when, quite nonchalantly, my professor told me and my colleagues that he had an idol. He was referring to the hon. member for Marc-Aurèle-Fortin. Obviously, I was flattered by association by this tribute to the hon. member for Marc-Aurèle-Fortin. It was the part of the course when we were talking about plea bargaining. It was extremely moving to me to hear my professor tell me that in the courts of justice where the hon. member for Marc-Aurèle-Fortin worked as a stern defence attorney, he was a tough and formidable man. The professor explained to us that there was something insidious in plea bargaining, but that without it, the judicial system would break down under the pressure of all these charges and all these cases that have to be tried.

I know that the hon. member for Marc-Aurèle-Fortin will agree with me that there is something absolutely sacred in the presumption of innocence. We have learned that we have to minimize cases where there is reverse onus. The presumption of innocence must never be lost. It is the responsibility of the prosecution, it is the responsibility of the Crown to prove that the accused breached a provision of the Criminal Code.

Of course the Bloc Québécois is in full agreement with the idea—in fact it made a significant contribution to it—of giving police officers the most effective tools for conducting investigations and bringing people to justice.

In Quebec charges are not laid by the police. They are laid by attorneys general. But we are constantly concerned about the need to provide the police with the most effective tools. This is why in the past we have asked for extended wire-tapping warrants. This is also why we demanded provisions in the anti-gang law to bring charges against organized crime in the 1990s.

The most worrisome thing is to hear the Minister of Justice say that the bill will help prevent crime. This could not be less true. If the government is really concerned about crime prevention, perhaps—and I am sure that many members feel as I do—the Minister of Public Security will sign some projects under the national crime prevention strategy so that community groups can get down to work in our various ridings at the grassroots level with people in the communities, and do some real prevention work.

So Bill C-35 proposes that, at the appearance stage and in some cases even at the preliminary investigation state, the onus be placed on the accused, the person charged. Therefore before the trial the accused has to be able to show that he can be set free.

The Bloc Québécois does not think that this should be automatic. Being set free when one has broken the law is not a constitutional right. The constitutional right is the right to be represented by a lawyer, the right to be heard and to have a fair trial.

What we do not understand is why the Crown, why the Crown attorney, should be exempt from demonstrating that we are in the presence of an accused who does not deserve to be set free.

Once again I want us to be clear about this. We agree that in some situations an accused should not be set free and should be detained until his trial begins. The Criminal Code has such provisions. I would remind members that we are not before a judge or in a trial. We are in a situation where bail is an option. We are weighing the evidence, we are at the stage of an appearance or a preliminary investigation.

There are situations, of course, when it is prudent, justifiable and perfectly comprehensible for the Crown to say that an individual should not be released, for example when evidence might be destroyed, when the individual may not appear as required for his or her trial, or when the individual poses a danger to the victim or the community.

We also already have provisions that require people charged with an offence to show themselves why they should be released. This is true, for instance, in cases of gangsterism.

I was a member of this House when we passed Bill C-95. In its original version, this bill stated that if five people had been found guilty of five offences over the previous five years, they were members of a gang. It was the crime of gangsterism. Nowadays, the term has changed and we speak of a criminal organization.

We agree that if the information or indictment involves Criminal Code sections 467.11, 467.12 or 467.13, this is a serious enough matter. If a person is accused of gangsterism and is one of the members of society that has been criminalized to this extent, we agree that there should not be any automatic responses and it should be up to the person to demonstrate that he or she does not pose any threat to society. In most cases, these people are not released.

This is true not only of the old charge of gangsterism but also, as the hon. member for Châteauguay—Saint-Constant pointed out, of the new gangsterism provisions passed in 2002. It is true as well when release conditions have been violated, when someone who was already out on bail or probation violated the conditions. If an individual already tried once to dodge the legal system and violated the conditions, it is completely understandable that he or she will not be released.

The bill goes much too far and there is a problem and considerable concern about offences committed with a firearm. I can never say enough about the inconsistencies, contradictions and stupidity of this government. On the one hand, it asks us parliamentarians to pass stricter legislation on offences committed with firearms, while on the other, it is willing to leave more arms in circulation.

What a disappointment it has been to us to see this government maneuvering, ever since it was elected, to abolish the gun registry.

The police have reminded us that this registry is consulted all across Canada, not just by the RCMP; not just by the Sûreté du Québec, and not only by the Montreal police. Police officers and law enforcement officers consult the registry 6,500 times a day. That is not insignificant.

I want to thank the researcher for the Bloc, Olivier Bernard, for providing us with very precise statistics. I will share them with you. What a contradiction this is. The gun registry, with compulsory registration, has been in existence for several years, notwithstanding the fact that the Conservatives have tabled a bill to dismantle it. This registry that is consulted an average of 6,500 times per day is not unimportant. There are 1.2 million restricted firearms that were required to be registered. That means 1.2 million firearms that were taken out of circulation thanks to this registry.

What does this mean? The Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights is now debating that point. We are going through clause-by-clause consideration of Bill C-10. Unfortunately, it is not a good bill because it is based on a philosophy that has been refuted by I do not know how many studies.

The bill seeks to impose mandatory minimum penalties for a number of crimes committed with a firearm. The Bloc Québécois is concerned about rigour and consistency. When Allan Rock established the gun registry, he established minimum mandatory penalties for crimes committed with a firearm.

We would like to know what that has meant. Scientific studies presented to the committee show that there is no correlation between minimum mandatory penalties and any deterrent effect that the presence of those penalties in the Criminal Code could have on criminals.

As a legislator, it is normal to ask questions about the consequences of public policies before adopting them.

What inconsistency, what contradiction. I am anxious to see some sign of enlightenment in the Conservative caucus. Someone who was a bit enlightened could make the government see reason. They could make it understand that one can not, on one hand, adopt or table bills that call for more severe penalties for crimes committed with a firearm, and, on the other hand—as though there was a constitutional right to bear arms—freely allow firearms to be carried as if that were not something that had consequences.

I am again appealing to all members to ensure that the government listens to reason, as urged by the police association. Many stakeholders from civil society have told the government that it does not make sense to dismantle the gun registry.

The shortcoming of Bill C-35 is that it is much too general. In some cases, pre-trial release is not justified. We reiterate that point and we concur. However, at present, we are discussing a number of offences that, in our opinion, should not automatically allow for reverse onus.

We must not shift the presumption of innocence without concern for the consequences to the administration of justice. We cannot toy with the principles of natural justice. Very often, I heard Conservative members, whom I will not name out of kindness—although I have a terrible urge to look at them and point them out, I will not do so—say that it was as though the Charter were a necessary evil.

Naturally, it is easier to devise the judicial system when we think in black and white and when there is no need to reconcile respect for the burden of proof or for disclosure of evidence, for example. That is certain. There is obviously an imbalance when we want a society where, on the one hand, there is the Crown with all its resources and means and, on the other hand, there are the offenders.

The Bloc Québécois supported increasing penalties for the most serious offenders. Again this morning, I made a proposal to the committee in an effort to bolster the fight against organized crime, with its contemporary incarnation of street gangs. We know that street gangs are a significant phenomenon. They are a reality in Montreal and in Toronto and, I am told, are organizing in Calgary, Saskatoon and Halifax. And of course there is Vancouver, where street gangs are a very important reality.

We cannot just go along with this idea that justice will be administered more effectively and things will be more acceptable if reverse onus is generalized. We do not believe that this is the right approach.

Unfortunately, we cannot support the bill as it currently stands. What is more, I was very surprised to learn something, which I checked with my leader. I think the government could have had the courtesy to inform the members of the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights that it planned to create a legislative committee. Of course, the government has the right to create a legislative committee.

For the people who are watching, a legislative committee is a committee that has a limited lifespan, existing only as long as a bill is being studied. For example, legislative committees studied the language-based school boards when the constitutional amendment was made and also studied Canada's clean air act and same-sex marriage. Obviously, this means double the time for the people on the committee, and I believe I will be sitting on it with my colleague from Châteauguay—Saint-Constant. In my opinion, the government could have had the courtesy to tell us about it.

The bill is too broad, because it targets all offences involving firearms. In my view, this is not the right approach. We repeat: the Bloc Québécois will always support legislation that gives the police more resources to conduct investigations, for example.

We recognize that, in a certain number of cases, maximum sentences need to be increased. We believe that. We support Bill C-10, which creates two new offences. We voted for the bill in committee, and we will vote for it at the report stage if the committee decides to send Bill C-10 back to the House. We will support the two new offences created by Bill C-10: robbery to steal a firearm and breaking and entering to steal a firearm.

In conclusion, I call on the government to take a much more moderate approach, and I hope that the members of this House will understand the risk that reverse onus poses to the administration of justice. Because of these concerns, the Bloc Québécois will vote against Bill C-35 at second reading.

[Daniel Petit, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I have a question for my hon. colleague who just addressed the House concerning Bill C-35. I would first like to draw his attention to the following point. The Alarie report clearly states that one of the reasons for the Bloc's loss of seats in the Quebec region is because the Bloc brought up same-sex marriage and the maintenance of the firearms registry. It is therefore absolutely false to say that the firearms registry is becoming an issue. It is no longer an issue in Quebec or in the regions, in general. I am not the one saying this. It was indicated in the report prepared by Ms. Alarie, Vice-President of the Bloc Québécois.

Additionally, I could not but notice that my hon. colleague is a good orator and an excellent debater. However, I would like to point out to him that the Bloc's research often leads it towards France and the French justice system. I bring this up because, in the French justice system, the accused is considered guilty until proven innocent. Quite often, the Bloc seems to admire French culture and French justice. Everything that is French should apply in Canada.

I therefore ask my colleague why he does not support Bill C-35, which represents just one small part of what goes on in France, which as the Bloc members must know, has now decided to move more towards English law. Why is my colleague so vehemently and absolutely against Bill C-35, when the country that he most admires uses these provisions and has been using them for more than 200 years?

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to tell the member for Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles that I looked to France—Marianne, eldest daughter of the church—for inspiration because that country has achieved sovereignty. Unfortunately for him, when he makes such comparisons, he inspires us all and reinforces our belief that Quebec must become sovereign.

I hope that by inviting us to consider the French judicial model, where presumption of innocence does not exist, the member is not suggesting that his government would do such a thing. That is not our legal tradition. To my knowledge, none of the stakeholders—indeed, no member of our civil society—would like to see that model used here. The main reason the Bloc Québécois cannot support the bill is that we believe reverse onus, as proposed for eight offences, is not the right solution.

This would not prevent prosecutors or the crown attorney from acting. If a person should not be released, if that person is a danger to society or used a firearm inappropriately, it remains the prerogative—if not the responsibility—of the justice not to allow that person to be released. I repeat, pre- trial release is not a constitutional right.

The main difference between how the Bloc Québécois and the Conservative Party view the justice system is that we, the Bloc Québécois, trust judges while the Conservatives do not have much respect for the judiciary.

I would like to conclude by thanking him for his confidence in Hélène Alarie. I think that in her report, the vice-president of the Bloc Québécois concluded that we will be first in line to win back Quebec in the next election. I would like to caution him against being overly confident because we have set our sights on Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Mr. Speaker, when I asked the justice minister about the costs of implementing this bill, he refused to answer. His non-answer suggested that the government had not done an analysis. Does the member think it is good law making when the government just assumes the bill is going to be defeated and it has not set aside any money for the costs to implement this bill? Those thousands of dollars could be used for crime prevention.

My second question is related to crime prevention. The member has already mentioned one issue which shows that the Conservatives are not serious about helping to reduce crime and could proliferate crime. One example is the decimation of the crime prevention funds. I have been trying to get a project in Watson Lake approved for over a year. Crime prevention funding seems to have stalled. I thought the Conservatives wanted to stop crime. The other example is the aboriginal justice strategy. There are nine projects in my community alone, which is one out of 308 ridings, that have proven to cut down on crime, cut down on incarceration, and cut down on repeat criminals.

Does the member really believe that the government is serious on crime if it is not proceeding on all these things that actually cut down on crime?

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

Mr. Speaker, our colleague is right to remind us how sad it is to see, I am sure, that many of us have been under pressure when it comes to the national crime prevention strategy.

I hope the government understands that it is important to bring projects to the grassroots and that our communities need this money. I agree with the hon. member. It is clear that we need more solid information on the financial consequences of this bill, particularly for the provinces which, in some cases, will see an increase in the number of prosecutions.

[Myron Thompson, Conservative, Wild Rose, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I listened to the member's speech and for a while I was not sure whether he was talking about the gun registry or just what he was talking about; he kind of wandered all over the place. I want to stick specifically to the purpose of this bill.

I can see no connection to whether the registry has basically saved any lives. I hear talk about it being used 6,000 times a day or whatever it is, but police have told me it kicks in regardless of what they are searching for, whether it is a car licence plate or the address of a person, but that is neither here nor there.

In my riding a young mother in her house was a victim of a sexual assault. Somebody who was asking for directions assaulted and viciously attacked the young mother. Three days later she was recouping, sitting on her front porch and lo and behold, who wandered into her yard but the same individual.The alleged crime was indeed a fact, but it was an alleged crime. It was the same at a corner grocery store which was held up by two people with guns. Three or four days later outside the same store the two individuals were standing on the corner. They were loose.

Surely the member would realize the impact that would have on the victims. Yes, the individuals are alleged to be criminals as there has not been a conviction but they were out on bail. What we are saying through this bill is that violent attackers, be they alleged or convicted, should not be released on bail. The experience of the two people, including the young mother, I can assure the member was traumatic, yet bail was allowed.

That just cannot happen in this society. It just cannot happen. I do not care how few cases there are, it cannot happen even once. We cannot allow this to go on. Does he agree?

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I want to thank our colleague for his question. I know that he has been interested in the work of the committee for at least 10 years and his point of view is very important to me. He often shows common sense, which I respect very much.

Nonetheless, I must say to him that we have to get one thing straight. We are claiming that there are cases where release on bail is not indicated. We agree, but we believe it is the responsibility of the prosecution to prove it. Beyond the exceptions in the Criminal Code, we believe it is the responsibility of the prosecution to prove it.

In the most obvious cases, such as the examples he gave, I do not believe that a judge would allow release on bail. We agree with him that there are certain cases where this is not indicated. However, we do not want to broaden the cases of reverse onus.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I rise to address some comments to Bill C-35, a government bill that at its essence introduces the use of the reverse onus to a number of new offences under the Criminal Code and provides a framework within which that reverse onus would be applied in our courts.

Bill C-35 is typical of the government's agenda. It has consistently presented short, individual issue bills to the House that have tied up debate in the House quite extensively. This certainly has tied up the justice committee very extensively and has put us way behind in coping with those bills.

It was not necessary. This is all about a political and ideologically driven agenda of the government. If it were really serious about dealing with crime and these particular issues of crime, in this case gun related ones, we could have been moving much more quickly, effectively and efficiently by having a number of these bills combined into an omnibus bill.

I am happy to say that I have carried on some discussions with the new Minister of Justice. I am hoping that we may in fact get a more positive response from him than has been reflected by his predecessor or by the government to this point, so that Canadians can have assurances that gun crimes and other crimes, serious ones in particular, are being dealt with as effectively as possible by the House and by the government, and that the criminal justice system will serve them to its absolutely peak of efficiency.

That is not the case with the government, because to a great extent, and there are some elements in the bill that I think reflect it, the government really is not serious about getting tough on crime. What it really is serious about is using the misfortune of so many victims of crime for its own political ends: to get elected and to try to form a majority government. That is really what this is about. That, quite frankly, is to the government's shame.

Having said that, I note that this bill, like so many others that have been introduced, has some basically solid elements to it, but again like so many, our position on it is that the government may have very well strayed over into the extreme, which it has a very strong tendency to do. I think the government is repeating that here.

Because I think the bill is fixable in committee, even though the government is sending it to a legislative committee rather than the justice committee, I believe it can be amended to bring it into line and to make it more effective and more usable.

I think it is important to make this point, and again, this is to perhaps repudiate some of the sales job that has gone on from that party and the government around this particular bill. The point needs to be very clearly made because oftentimes I hear members of the Conservative Party who do not really understand our existing law trying to portray this new one as covering fields that have already been taken care of.

The reverse onus already applies in the situation whereby an individual accused has been charged with an indictable offence and released on bail and then is charged again. On the second time, the reverse onus applies to that, so they are not released on a second offence unless they can establish to the satisfaction of the court that they are not a safety concern for society as a whole. That is already in our existing law, as is the reverse onus in a number of other types of crimes. Organized crime, terrorism and certain drug trafficking, drug smuggling and drug producing offences all have the reverse onus already applied.

We could go on. A number of them are applicable at this point, as are some of the more serious ones such as murder, treason and war crimes. All of these have reverse onus already applicable. What this bill is proposing to do is to extend it to more serious offences. I believe the government's number was eight offences.

Again, the government may very well have crossed over the line on some of these. Our courts, all the way to the Supreme Court, have made it quite clear that reverse onus can be used in appropriate circumstances. Where it has been tested up to this point, the courts have supported its use in the sections of the code that I have already mentioned. The government may have crossed the line with some of these, so it will be important at the committee stage to take evidence to try to ascertain whether the government, as it has so often in the past, has taken an extreme position and whether we have to bring it back somewhat from that.

However, certainly there are areas in which we do need to use the reverse onus more extensively than we have up to this point, so we will be supporting the bill with the expectation that at committee we will be able to make the proper amendments.

The other thing that I think is really important to appreciate is the fact that the whole bill of course is open to an attack under the charter, so we have to be very careful with regard to the way it is drafted. There is some wording that is unusual, let me put it that way, wording that I have not seen in the Criminal Code in the past at any time. There may very well have to be some amendments made to make sure that it is not so general and so vague that it will be subject to an attack under the charter and therefore struck down. There may be amendments along those lines. I can see a couple of areas where that is probably going to be necessary in the course of the work that the committee will do.

There is another major point, and again I think it is to the shame of the Conservative Party, which constantly brings forward this kind of legislation without understanding, or perhaps caring, about the circumstances. In this bill, there are going to be some consequences in terms of additional pressure on our courts, on our police officers because of the additional time they will probably end up spending in court testifying, and certainly on our prosecutors and our judiciary.

In all of those cases, the costs of those additional judges, the extra courtrooms, the prosecutors and, in a number of cases, the costs of the defence counsel through the legal aid systems in the provinces, are borne by the provinces. Up to this point in the roughly one year that this government has been in place and has been introducing these bills, we have seen a total disregard on the part of the government to take into account those consequences.

We have not seen any analysis in the previous bills that we have had before the justice committee. Whatever analysis we had on costs was drawn out by the opposition parties. I will take some particular credit for that, but all of us have looked at it and have drawn some of it out so that we understand the consequences of passing this legislation.

Because the analysis has not been done, there have been no arrangements made by this federal government to in effect subsidize or in any way financially assist the provinces in meeting these cost commitments that we impose upon them. That of course is having a deleterious effect on the relationship between the provinces and the federal government, as we have seen in a number of other areas in the past when we as a federal legislature pass laws that commit the provinces to spending money and provide no assistance for them to do that.

I have to say with regard to costs that my biggest concern is the number of additional incarcerations. We have to expect that this will happen. It is an inevitable consequence of this bill and is what the bill is intended to do. There will be additional incarcerations and those incarcerations will be in institutions that are owned and operated by the provinces.

We have no idea of how many there will be. We attempted to see if the minister had any sense of how many when he was addressing the House this morning. As is so typical, the government has not done the analysis. That will have to come out of the work the committee does. This is probably where the major cost is going to be. It is a cost that is borne entirely by the provinces. At this point, the provinces will have no idea of how much that is going to be because the analysis has not been done at the federal level.

There is another point, though, with regard to that. We know from evidence before committee that all of our provincial institutions in every province, without exception, is either at capacity or has an overcapacity for most of the institutions that house alleged criminals pending their trials. They are all overcrowded or at best are at capacity. By adding additional bodies to those institutions as part of the incarceration group, we will be taxing the facilities beyond their ability to respond.

That is significant in two ways. A judge looking at that situation will be much more prone to say that he or she is going to release the person, that the person may in fact be a danger to society but the judge is going to release him or her because there is really no capacity to deal with the person. The provinces have not been able to afford to expand the physical plants, says the judge, so he or she is going to release the person simply because of that.

Or, what is much more common, and which causes one of these unintended consequences that the government never thinks about, is that we are going to have the situation whereby a person is ultimately either pleading guilty or is convicted and is before the court during sentencing after conviction saying that he or she had to spend six months, a year and maybe even longer in some cases in a facility that was totally inadequate by Canadian standards. We know that is going on right now. Those convicted persons are given extra credit for that time.

If the sentence is for five years, the court may very well say that the person has already spent a year incarcerated so the court is going to give credit for that. Plus, as a bonus, because the incarceration was so bad and the circumstances were so bad and the system is so poor, the court may give the person credit for another year or perhaps even more. That is beginning to happen. It is quite common to get two for one credits, but now the arguments are coming for three to one credits.

If we build this legal infrastructure without taking that into account and providing the financial resources to the provinces to provide adequate housing for people who are accused of crimes, that is going to be the consequence. Thus, at the end of the day, we are going to have people getting out of our federal institutions--that is where they end up if the sentence is for more than two years--at a much faster rate, which is the complete opposite of the intention of the government, certainly, and I think of most of us who are looking at this bill and at what we want for the criminal justice system.

We are in the situation where that needs to be looked at by committee. The bill is now going to a special legislative committee. This is obviously another attempt by the government to speed up the process of bills going through. It would be much faster if the government used my suggestion, which I have made repeatedly, of using the omnibus bill approach, but even there the reality is that the legislative committee cannot sit at the same time as the justice committee.

Again, I do not know if either the Minister of Justice or the House leader appreciate this, but the legislative committee cannot sit at the same time as the justice committee because it is a justice bill. We will be scrambling to try to find slots of time whereby those of us who are sitting on that committee, and I am assuming I will be one of them, will be able to fit it into our schedules. It probably is not going to save any time. It is going to be a slower process in many respects than if the bill had been sent to the justice committee.

I would point out again that this was done without consultation with the opposition parties. Again, this is a reflection of a course of conduct of just how serious the government is with regard to dealing with crime in this country.

At the end of the day, as a party we will be supporting this bill at second reading to go to committee, but at committee we will be expecting in some cases minor amendments and in other cases some fairly serious amendments to ensure that this does comply with our existing criminal justice system standards, the charter in particular, and also to get more background material so we fully understand the consequences of this legislation.

[Ken Epp, Conservative, Edmonton—Sherwood Park, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the member gave a very interesting speech and one of the things he included in it was reference to the increased costs of incarcerating more individuals.

My question is very pointed. Does he just outright reject the idea that by making the sentences more sure, in the sense that these people will know that after the third time they have done something, they may land in jail instead of walking the streets, that it may deter them? Does the member just absolutely reject the idea of a jail sentence that is sure being a deterrence?

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Mr. Speaker, this bill has nothing to do with that issue. This has nothing to do with the sentencing of people convicted. This is all about the bail procedure and nothing about sentencing, so the two do not have anything to do with this.

Regarding costs though, all through my life and I learned this from my Irish mother, we pay our own way and do not expect to conduct ourselves in such a way that somebody else picks up the tab for us. So I say to the member and to his party, if they are serious about crime and handling it responsibly, do not dump the costs on the provinces. Take some responsibility. Be sure of what they are doing and once they know what the consequences are, then pay the debt.

We are passing these bills. We are passing this responsibility on to the provinces and we should be there at the table with a cheque to ensure that these costs are covered by the federal government, which is in a much stronger position to cover them than the provinces.

[Myron Thompson, Conservative, Wild Rose, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I have always respected the hon. member's opinions although I do not agree with him most of time and I think he knows that, but I certainly respect him as a family man and as a person who believes in protecting society.

I have heard him mention that these things are happening for political gains. First, does the member really believe after 13 years that I would make some kind of effort toward something like this for political gains? Second, everyone realizes there are costs attached to everything that we do, but the most important thing is, are we willing to provide legislation to protect people?

I did not hear any message in the member's speech about the importance of protecting people with regard to releasing the accused on bail. I found that rather strange coming from this man. I believe he wants to see people protected, but he did not mention the fact that if we do not let them out, then they cannot hurt anyone again. That has happened. Not a great number of times, but it happened in my riding twice. The trauma of the people being released is enough to frighten victims beyond belief.

I wish the opposition would put more emphasis on that. As far as the bail being taken away from the sentencing time, that is the way it works, two years for one, and I see no bearing on that. Life is a little tough in prison and there is a message for some people right there. They should not go there and they will not have those miseries. Stay out of there.

I believe the member thinks that safety is really important for the protection of society, but I did not hear him mention that factor. Does he believe that the bill will protect society in any measure at all, or is it just useless in that respect?

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Mr. Speaker, actually I thought I had talked fairly extensively about the support we were giving to the bill because it is needed in a number of circumstances.

My colleague from Wild Rose asked if I see him using this for political gain. I do not. I respect him as he does me. We disagree all the time. I cannot say the same thing about a number of other members of his party, including the former justice minister. However, this is just being completely partisan on my part.

Putting that aside, this is really about passing laws that are effective in protecting the Canadian public and will, in fact, be used.

I want to go back to the two examples that my colleague gave to my friend from the Bloc about the woman who was sexually assaulted and the robbery in the corner store. It is really interesting to compare these stories with what we heard from Chief Blair in Toronto. Using the same system, ramping up the services with no new laws, just using the existing ones, he shut down three street gangs in his city.

When I heard the story the member gave us with regard to the woman who was sexually assaulted, I could not help but ask why the prosecutor did not have a condition on the bail release for that alleged perpetrator to not be anywhere near that address. That would be a very common clause. In defence of that prosecutor, it was probably not put in because he or she was so over-worked that the point was missed. That happens a lot. If the prosecutor did put it in, the police should have charged that person immediately. Chief Blair did that and he did it very effectively without new legislation.

The NDP is obviously very concerned about protecting Canadians. We just want to do it effectively. We think there are parts of this bill that will do that.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I listened with interest to my colleague's discussion and he clearly laid out the issue. The issue before us is the need to balance public safety, which is something we as New Democrats are very strong on, particularly in light of the proliferation of guns and the concern about gun violence. We need to send a clear message that gun violence is not going to be tolerated in our society.

I would like to juxtapose that with the Conservative Party's cheapening of the suffering of crime victims in order to make political messages. The Conservatives send stuff into other people's ridings saying that so and so is soft on crime, or so and so supports all kinds of nefarious and disgusting activities because so and so does not have the extreme views of the Conservative Party on many things.

This legislation comes to us as something to deal with the threat of gun violence, so of course there is support for it. As with pretty much any bill the Conservatives bring forward, they make it so big that we could drive a Mack truck through it. They are trying to sweep up into their net many other crimes while scaring the general public about crime.

What steps does the hon. member think need to be taken to ensure the public interest is protected? What steps need to be taken to ensure that the Conservative Party does not use bills like this for cheap partisan purposes?