Bill C-35 (Historical)

An Act to amend the Criminal Code (reverse onus in bail hearings for firearm-related offences)

This enactment amends the Criminal Code to provide that the accused will be required to demonstrate, when charged with certain serious offences involving firearms or other regulated weapons, that pre-trial detention is not justified in their case and to introduce additional factors relating to firearm offences that the courts must take into account in deciding whether an accused should be released or detained pending trial.

Criminal Code

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Mr. Speaker, in the ten percenters that are going out, the Conservatives are very guilty of attacking not just the NDP but they are attacking the Liberals. I do not know if they are going after the Bloc in Quebec as well, but it cheapens the debate, there is no question.

The Conservatives accuse others of being soft on crime. I get that all the time when a bill comes before the House. I get it in householders and ten percenters. They are also being sent on the issue of the age of consent. I have been a strong proponent of dealing with that issue, dealing with it appropriately and effectively, and still the NDP is accused of being opposed to it. Although it will be an independent vote, the vast majority of us are in favour of it.

We get those false accusations simply to stir the pot in key ridings where the Conservatives think they can win by sending out that kind of scurrilous material. It demeans the political party. It demeans the individual member of Parliament who sends out that kind of junk.

Quite frankly, to answer the basic question of how to deal with it, the House will have to look at what kind of material will be allowed into our ten percenters if that kind of conduct continues.

[Rob Moore, Conservative, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, it is a great pleasure today to rise to speak in support of Bill C-35. This government bill would amend the bail provisions of the Criminal Code to provide a reverse onus for firearm related offences.

It was with great interest that I listened to the speech of the hon. member for Windsor—Tecumseh and the exchange in questions and answers. I think parts of it were quite informative.

The government said it would tackle gun crimes with effective measures that would be targeted at the right group. That group, as all right thinking people know, are those who would use a firearm for a criminal purpose and not law-abiding firearms owners.

We have seen the effects of targeting the wrong the people. When we have a problem, we should all know intuitively that we have to target the problem and not target what is not the problem.

In Canada the law-abiding firearms community, people who are duck hunters or who represent us at the Olympics in shooting sports, are not the problem. The problem, as we all know, are those who would use a firearm in the commission of an offence against an innocent Canadian, against another person.

Like Bill C-10 on mandatory minimum penalties for serious and repeat firearm offences, Bill C-35 is appropriately directed at the gun crime problem that we must address in Canada.

I am proud that the government has come forward with this important legislation. It aims to protect Canadians from the threat of gun crimes.

In the context of studying and debating Bill C-10, both in the House and at the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights, we have heard from many witnesses, professors, criminal justice experts and police representatives, all describing the gun crime trend in Canada. We have received many statistics from the Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics. As a general overview, I believe it is fair to say that while there has been a decline in most firearm offences in Canada over the last few decades, there has been a growing problem in many parts of the country with respect to guns and gangs.

This is precisely why the government, in Bill C-10, has targeted specifically individuals who use handguns and other prohibited weapons in the commission of a crime and gangs that use firearms to victimize other Canadians.

In many areas the problem largely revolves around the drug trade or turf wars, particularly in many of our large urban centres. Police officers have expressed the concern for some time that they have come across more illegal guns, particularly handguns, in their investigations. The problem with guns, gangs and drugs is not only communicated to us by the police. There have been several cases reported on in the media in the last year to confirm the prevalence of gun violence in many different parts of Canada.

In the last year or so there has been the Dawson College shooting in which a student was killed and approximately 20 others were sent to hospital, many with very serious injuries.

There was the shooting of three police officers in Winnipeg late last fall. Earlier in the year a Windsor police officer was killed in the line of duty.

There was a shooting in London, Ontario last fall where the accused, charged with four counts of attempted murder, was released on bail. I will repeat that one. Bill C-35 seeks to address the issue of bail.

Also, there was the 2005 Boxing Day shooting in downtown Toronto, which resulted in the tragic death of another innocent young woman.

These are just a few examples, as Canada has on average a couple of hundred firearms homicides each year.

Some people may say that, as parliamentarians, we ought to be cautious and not react too swiftly with legislative reforms to address a few high profile horrendous cases. However, we must be alert to the undercurrent behind an emerging trend and be prepared to act decisively to address the problem.

I have always found it problematic when individuals say that it is just anecdotal or that it is just one example. Of course it is just one example. These are the life stories of many Canadians, in fact the life and death stories of many Canadians. It means something to them and to their families. We should all agree in the House that if we can prevent one of these anecdotal crimes, then we would be doing a great service to those individuals and our country.

Bill C-10 was the government's first step in tackling the problem of gun crimes. This initiative was coupled with other measures to help prevent crime, such as funding for programs directed at keeping at risk youth from getting involved with guns, gangs and drugs in the first place.

This is another aspect that we hear all the time at justice committee and public safety committee. People ask these questions. Why do we not go to the root cause of crime? Why do we not address funding shortfalls? Why we do we not put more resources to youth at risk? I am pleased to say we are doing that. We are addressing youth at risk. The Minister of Public Safety recently announced funding for programs targeting at youth at risk.

We are also using preventative measures such as putting police on the streets. From many jurisdictions where this has taken place, we know that putting police on the streets does have an impact on crime. However, sometimes there are those cases where the crime does happen. In spite of all the preventative measures we take and in spite of the police being on the street, someone commits a crime with a gun against another Canadian.

That is where our Criminal Code comes into place. It is our responsibility at the federal level and as parliamentarians to ensure that the Criminal Code is up to snuff, it is up to date, it is up to the task of preventing crime and protecting Canadians.

I feel that Bill C-35 is an important component of our plan to fight gun crime at the beginning of the criminal justice process. Bill C-35 deals with bail hearings. After people are charged, they are brought before the court for a bail hearing, unless they are released by the police because they do not pose a threat to public safety nor represent a risk of absconding.

During bail hearings, the prosecutor usually bears the onus of demonstrating why an accused should be denied bail. In some situations, the onus falls on the accused. Bill C-35 proposes to add other reverse onus situations to specifically include serious offences involving firearms.

Why does this make sense? Evidence has shown that someone who is involved in an offence regarding a firearm or someone who is violating a prohibition order involving a firearm could indeed pose a significantly greater threat than someone who perhaps stole a stereo, for example. We need to crack down on all crime. I cited an example earlier in my speech where someone, who is out on bail, committed horrific acts against innocent Canadians.

Bill C-35 proposes a reverse onus for the offences of weapons trafficking, possession for the purpose of trafficking and weapons smuggling. It also proposes a reverse onus for any indictable offence that involves a firearm or other regulated weapon if the offence is committed while the accused is under a weapons prohibition order.

It should be noted that this reverse onus is not limited to offences that involve the actual use of a firearm or other weapon.

Bill C-35 proposes a reverse onus for eight serious offences when committed with a firearm. Those offences are as follows: attempted murder, robbery, discharging a firearm with criminal intent, sexual assault with a firearm, aggravated sexual assault, kidnapping, hostage-taking or extortion.

Bill C-35 proposes another amendment to require the bail hearing court to consider the fact that a firearm was allegedly used in the commission of other indictable offences, when deciding whether the accused could be kept in custody in order to maintain confidence in the administration of justice.

Lastly, an amendment is proposed to provide that the courts must also consider whether the accused faces a minimum term of imprisonment of three years or more for a firearm related offence.

The new reverse onus situations proposed in Bill C-35 will assist in ensuring that persons involved in serious weapon related offences are not released back into the community without full consideration by the courts of the risks such individuals pose to the safety of the public. It will help address the underlying problem that has emerged in recent years with respect to guns, gangs and the drug trade.

When we talk about guns and gangs in the urban centres, we often focus on the urban centres. It is not limited to the urban centres. Firearms offences take place in probably all areas of Canada. In my province of New Brunswick and in my riding of Fundy Royal we hear about these offences. The Criminal Code applies equally to all areas of Canada because all Canadians are deserving of that protection. This is not something that is limited only to the cities.

We have heard overwhelmingly from the cities. We have heard from the city of Toronto, Canada's largest city, that this legislation is exactly what is needed to deal with some of the problems it is experiencing with gang and gun violence.

I urge all members, whether from a rural or an urban area, regardless of their political stripe, to listen to what the experts and front line workers have to say, those who work with victims, those who work in the justice field and those who work in corrections. Listen to what the mayors of the cities have to say about people who have committed offences, or charged with them, and are out on bail. Hear what they are saying about putting the onus on those individuals to prove why they should be out on bail, or released onto the streets, especially when the incident involved a firearm or a criminal act while they were on a prohibition order for a firearm.

I urge all hon. members to consider supporting this worthwhile bill.

[James Rajotte, Conservative, Edmonton—Leduc, AB]

Mr. Speaker, my friend's speech laid out very well the rationale for this legislation. As well, he outlined the government's comprehensive justice package in this area. He mentioned a few of the bills, obviously addressing such things as age of consent legislation, which many of the parents in my riding have requested, changes to conditional sentencing and street racing.

The government has been busiest in the justice area. I think there are at least nine bills at some stage before Parliament, showing the government's view that we need to reform the justice system.

I appreciated the member not getting into the rhetoric, but taking a factual approach and showing how the reverse onus would be used for the very serious crimes in an effort to reduce gun and gang violence. I come from the best kept secret in Canada, the city of Edmonton, the most beautiful city in our country. Unfortunately, it has been plagued by some serious tragic incidents involving guns and gangs.

Would the parliamentary secretary reiterate, factually, exactly what this legislation will do to try to combat the serious growing problem we have within our nation?

[Rob Moore, Conservative, Fundy Royal, NB]

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for Edmonton—Leduc for his work on the justice file. We had the privilege of having him before the justice committee on his private member's bill recently and I thank him for his work in that regard.

When we talk about Criminal Code amendments, we oftentimes get bogged down with terms that are familiar to all of us in the House but for people who are watching us on TV and paying close attention to the debates on justice issues, there may be some unfamiliar terms.

This bill puts the onus, the responsibility, on the person who has been brought before a judge for a firearms related offence, and I will mention those again: attempted murder, robbery, discharging a firearm with criminal intent, aggravated sexual assault, kidnapping, hostage taking, or extortion. Those are the criminal acts when committed with a firearm and also specifically there are the firearms related offences of firearms trafficking, possession for the purpose of trafficking and firearms smuggling.

As well there is a reverse onus for any indictable offence that involves a firearm if it is committed while the person is already under a weapons prohibition order. A weapons prohibition order means that someone has been through the justice system and a judge has said that the person has to abstain from certain activities, and may have to keep a curfew, keep the peace and not be in possession of a firearm.

We know of some tragic examples where weapons prohibition orders have been ignored, individuals have obtained weapons and individuals have been killed as a result. Currently there are over 30,000 individuals in Canada who are subject to a weapons prohibition order.

What we are doing in all of the situations that I just set out is saying to the people who were arrested that they have to show to the court why they should be granted bail. It is not the other way around. The onus, the responsibility, is going to be on them to show why they should be granted bail.

[Marlene Jennings, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I listened with great interest to what my colleague, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Justice, had to say.

I was struck by one of the figures he mentioned: that there are currently 30,000 Canadians who are prohibited from possessing a firearm.

Does he have more specific details than just that one number? Were these people found guilty of a criminal offence involving a firearm?

I am in a quandary. It is all very well and good to say that 30,000 Canadians are under a prohibition order to possess a firearm. That would presume obviously and clearly that those individuals have been convicted of some criminal offence, but it is not clear whether or not they have all been convicted of one of what we would call the serious offences on which Bill C-35 would actually place a reverse onus for bail. If not all of them, what percentage of them were actually convicted of the specific offences that would be touched by Bill C-35?

I would truly appreciate it if the parliamentary secretary would provide that information. If he cannot at this moment, I am sure he or the government officials would be more than happy to bring that information to committee, should this bill go to committee.

[Rob Moore, Conservative, Fundy Royal, NB]

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for her work on the justice committee. I will take this opportunity to congratulate her on her appointment as justice critic, which often puts me on the receiving end of that criticism, but that is fine because that is the way our system works.

Actually there are about 35,000 individuals in Canada who are currently under a prohibition order. The answer to the hon. member's question is no, those prohibition orders do not always result from the serious offences that I set out, but could result from a number of other offences that may involve a firearm but are not listed in Bill C-35.

The bill groups three different groups of individuals together: those who have committed one of the eight serious offences that I listed, and I will not list them again; the three offences specifically related to firearms, firearms trafficking, possession for the purpose of trafficking and firearms smuggling; and those that are currently under a firearm prohibition order. Those are the three groups that are captured by the bill. All of them in some way knew they had committed an offence involving a firearm, a serious offence. They have been involved with illegal acts involving a firearm, such as trafficking or smuggling, or they are under an order not to be in possession of a firearm. They are all firearms related.

We are saying that if an individual is arrested for an offence involving a firearm and is before a judge, the onus is on the individual to prove why on balance the judge should grant bail. Bail is not a right in our system; it is something that can be obtained, but the individual is going to have to prove why he or she should receive it.

[The Acting Speaker, Andrew Scheer]

It is my duty pursuant to Standing Order 38 to inform the House that the question to be raised tonight at the time of adjournment is as follows: the hon. member for Davenport, Literacy.

Resuming debate, the hon. member for Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine.

[Marlene Jennings, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC]

Mr. Speaker, as the justice critic for the official opposition, I am very pleased to rise in this House to discuss Bill C-35, An Act to amend the Criminal Code (reverse onus in bail hearings for firearm-related offences).

Before I begin my speech, I would like to thank the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Justice for his kind words of congratulation on my appointment to the critic portfolio.

No doubt everyone is aware that Bill C-35 amends the Criminal Code to provide that the accused will be required to demonstrate, when charged with certain serious offences involving firearms or other regulated weapons, that pre-trial detention is not justified in their case.

The bill also introduces two factors relating to such offences that the courts must take into account in deciding whether detention is justified or not.

I can say right now that the Liberal Party is not opposed to the principle of reverse onus on bail issues. This principle is already in use in Canadian courts. It is in the Criminal Code for serious offences, such as murder.

Therefore, our party would in fact like to see this bill referred to the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights so that we can ensure it will accomplish what it sets out to do, that it does indeed meet appropriate safeguards, such as that of our Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, and that legal and criminal experts do concur in its usefulness.

Accordingly, I would normally have respectfully asked my caucus colleagues to support sending Bill C-35 to the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights at second reading. However, the motion that the government has tabled would have this bill go to a special legislative committee. As such, I have not had an opportunity to study the ramifications should the House decide to send it to a legislative committee. I honestly believe that the bill should go to the justice committee. However, I would welcome comments from the parliamentary secretary on behalf of the government as to the reasons for sending it to a legislative committee rather than to the justice committee.

Getting back to the bill itself, given that the bill would amend the current provisions of Canada's bail system, perhaps we should begin our inquiry with a look at how bail arrangements now function.

It is the charter that sets out the basic measures regarding bail. The charter's section 11 lists the fundamental legal rights of Canadians who stand accused of certain crimes. The charter states:

Any person charged with an offence has the right:

a) to be informed without unreasonable delay of the specific offence;

b) to be tried within a reasonable time;

c) not to be compelled to be a witness in proceedings against that person in respect of the offence;

That means a person cannot be forced to incriminate himself or herself.

d) to be presumed innocent until proven guilty according to law in a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal; and

e) not to be denied reasonable bail without just cause--

The charter sets out the very conditions by which our criminal provisions must operate. It has as a principle that an individual who is charged of a crime is not to be denied reasonable bail without just cause.

As I mentioned, the Liberal Party is not opposed in principle to reverse onus in the case of bail. We ourselves have brought in provisions over the years since Confederation on the creation, adoption and subsequent modification and amendment to our criminal justice system provisions that provide for reverse onus for certain crimes. That is not the issue here.

Members may then ask about the last point, which makes clear that liberty pending trial is the presumption and basic entitlement of every Canadian under the charter. We are all presumed innocent, as many of my colleagues who have spoken to this bill have underlined, and we are all granted the right not to be denied bail without just cause.

Then let us talk about which reasons could motivate a judge to deny bail to a suspect accused of a particular crime where there is not already a reverse onus provision in the Criminal Code. Charter section 11(e) which states “not to be denied reasonable bail without just cause”, presumes then that the individual charged with a criminal offence has the possibility of getting bail and it is up to the Crown to show to the judge why that accused should not be awarded bail.

Current provisions hold that bail can be denied on one or more of the following three grounds. The first or primary ground is to ensure that the accused does not flee from justice on any charges currently before the courts. This could be someone who has been charged for a crime but who has not yet stood trial but who is then found, on reasonable grounds, to have committed another criminal offence and is charged with new charges. This is a primary ground where the judge could and would probably refuse bail on the grounds that the accused was a real danger of flight risk.

The secondary ground on which a judge may refuse or deny bail to a suspect is to protect the public if there is substantial likelihood that the accused will reoffend if released.

The tertiary ground is to maintain Canadians' confidence in the administration of justice in their country, for instance, in light of the gravity of the offence. Many times if someone is charged with an offence that is particularly heinous and quite grave, the judge will take that into account and deem it necessary to deny bail in order to preserve Canadians' confidence in the administration of justice.

Under the circumstances that I have just outlined, the prosecutor bears the onus of demonstrating why an accused should be refused or denied bail.

However, as I said a few moments ago, there are some cases where the accused has the onus of demonstrating that pre-trial detention is not justified.

There is a range of situations in which the accused—the accused, not the Crown—must satisfy a judge that he or she deserves to be released before trial. I would like to offer a few examples.

When the suspect is charged with an indictable offence committed while already released and awaiting trial on another indictable offence. In that case, it is the accused who will have to satisfy the judge that there are reasons and grounds that justify the judge granting release on bail.

When the suspect fails to appear in court or has allegedly breached a release condition. This is another situation in which it is the accused who must satisfy the judge that he or she deserves to be released while awaiting trial.

When the suspect is charged with an indictable offence involving organized crime, terrorism or security of information.

There is also the case of a suspect charged with an indictable offence consisting of drug trafficking, smuggling or production.

And last—although this list is not exhaustive—when the suspect is not a Canadian resident and is charged with any indictable offence.

These are situations in which, under the existing provisions of the Criminal Code, the accused has the burden of proof and must satisfy the judge as to the reasons why he or she should be released.

The reverse onus already exists in those situations. That is proof that the Liberal Party is not opposed in principle to the idea of reverse onus for release on bail.

As well, a person charged with murder, treason, certain war crimes or other rare indictable offences is automatically kept in detention until he or she is granted interim release after a hearing before a superior court of criminal jurisdiction.

We can therefore see that there are a variety of situations in which the principle of no pre-trial detention, a principle found in section 11 of the Charter, is already reversed in the Criminal Code. Thus there are various reasons that can justify the reverse onus.

Speaking as justice critic for the official opposition, as I said earlier, we would like to see this bill sent to a committee, but to the Standing Committee on Justice.

I stand to be corrected if information is wrong. The government is offering as its reason that this will expedite matters, that the Standing Committee on Justice is buried in work and that it would not be able to examine a bill like this expeditiously and effectively.

But a legislative committee will for the most part be composed of the same members—as the House is aware—because it is the members of the Standing Committee on Justice who have expertise and experience in this field.

We are simply going to divide them in half, and the work will not get done any faster.

Before addressing this subject, I would like to point out that the government has not answered certain questions. Here are a few examples.

When the government publicly announced its intention to rewrite some of our bail laws, there was interest and support but questions were asked. At the time, some of the concern, which no longer appears to exist, about the then long promised legislation, focused on whether the law would survive constitutional scrutiny. In my view, it most likely will, but if the bill should become law, we can expect to see challenges to the courts on the constitutionality of the bill.

However, most experts, leaving aside the constitutional issue, which most experts now seem to downplay, are still troubled with the larger issue, which is whether bail laws are an effective tool for cracking down on gun violence.

I believe the government would admit that bail has not been researched as extensively as other areas of our criminal justice system and that some of the most basic questions regarding the effectiveness of our bail laws as they exist today remain unanswered. For instance, how many people who are currently charged with gun crimes are actually granted bail? In a longitudinal study, how many individuals convicted of committing a gun crime have been released on bail? Under the current criminal provisions, it is possible for a person to actually reoffend while awaiting trial and reoffend in a firearm related offence. We do not have any of that information.

I noted the comments made by the member for Wild Rose, in response to members of an opposition party, when he said that we need to act. I agree that we need to act, but I do not think we need to act cautiously. We need to act in full knowledge so that we know that the legislation we bring forward will achieve the objectives that we want it to achieve.

We also want to ensure it will be effective. The worst thing any government or any Parliament can do is adopt legislation on the basis that it will make our communities safer but in the end does no such thing. It gives a false sense of security to Canadians, which is not a good thing. When Canadians realize that the legislation does not make them safer, it becomes that much more difficult to convince Canadians that other legislation is effective.

It is difficult to bring in legislation, but particularly legislation that restricts the scope of freedom, the liberty and the rights we all enjoy in particular situations. The bill is being touted as one that would make our communities safer. It may very well do that but we need the information.

In 1995 the Commission on Systemic Racism in the Ontario criminal justice system found that blacks accused of a crime were more likely than white people accused of a crime to be imprisoned before trial. That means to be denied bail while awaiting trial. That difference in the numbers could not be explained away or justified by the factors normally considered in granting bail.

In 2004 there were 125,871 Canadians in prison and awaiting trial, and 83,733 behind bars serving sentences. That is according to Statistics Canada.

I hope the government would agree that this bill should go before the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights. The government should bring us the information that will assure us and Canadians that should the bill be adopted, it will in fact be effective and achieve the objectives it is supposed to and make our country--

[The Acting Speaker, Andrew Scheer]

Questions and comments. The hon. member for Wild Rose.

[Myron Thompson, Conservative, Wild Rose, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I will make this short and to the point as I see there are other questioners.

I made reference to a person who had committed sexual assault had been let out on bail. I also mentioned that two people who had committed a crime with a gun by holding up a store were let out on bail. Does the member think the fact that they were let out on bail traumatized the victims any more than they already were? Or does she think the fact that they were let out on bail would not affect the victims?

I would suggest to the member it had a tremendous impact on the victims. We as politicians should prevent as much trauma in the life of victims as we possibly can. I see the bill doing that.

[Marlene Jennings, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC]

Mr. Speaker, one of the grounds on which a judge makes a determination as to whether or not an individual should be released on bail while awaiting trial is whether or not, given the gravity and the nature of the offence of which the individual is accused, it would shake, lessen or erode Canadians' confidence in the administration of justice within their country.

I do not have all of the facts of the two cases that my colleague mentioned so I have no clue whatsoever what evidence the Crown put forward to argue that the accused should not be released on bail while awaiting trial. I have no information because the member has not provided it to this House as to what evidence or proof the accused put forward as to why he or she should not be denied bail.

One thing is clear. If evidence was put before the judge who released those individuals, one of the grounds for their release would be to maintain Canadians' confidence in the administration of justice in this country, for instance, in light of the gravity of the offence. That in and of itself should likely have, without all of the information, provided reasonable grounds for the judge to deny bail, and that is without there being a reverse onus.

As I said, Liberals are not opposed to reverse onus. We have been in government on many different occasions for many different decades and we ourselves have brought in provisions that create reverse onus on bail issues.

[Daniel Petit, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask my colleague a question. Throughout the various testimonies that were heard by the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights, one of the main issues was that, in my province and especially in Montreal, firearms can be found in any restaurant in Montreal within half an hour.

Furthermore, the hon. member for Ahuntsic published a book that effectively summarizes the situation in Montreal, namely, that there are currently 34 street gangs in the city, which are giving firearms to children as young as 11 and 12. Why? Because they are engaged in drug trafficking and prostitution.

All of this was summarized in the book, which is an excellent read, incidentally. I urge everyone to consult it. They will then see why Bill C-35 is needed at this time.

My colleague often tells us that we have a right-leaning ideology, because we propose bills that perhaps go against their ideology, which tends to promote certain things that would take away from the sense of security that we wish to ensure. However, the sentiment must also be accompanied by legislation and changes to legislation.

Can my colleague tell me how the reversal of onus, which Bill C-35 proposes—and which will be introduced—goes against section 11(e) of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, which states: “Any person charged with an offence has the right not to be denied reasonable bail without just cause”?

How do the two or three short sentences of Bill C-35, which are referred to as amendments, infringe on section 11(e) of the charter?

[Marlene Jennings, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I have said that simply having a provision or section in the Criminal Code that reverses onus in the case of pre-trial bail has been deemed constitutional on many occasions. I have listed several situations where this is true. I therefore cannot see what the Conservative member is driving at with his question. I truly do not understand what he means.

Perhaps someone else could ask me a question and explain what the hon. member means, because I do not understand. I have already said that Criminal Code provisions that reverse onus in the case of pre-trial bail have been deemed to comply with the Charter of Rights and Freedoms and that Liberal governments have brought in several of these provisions since Confederation.

Perhaps you will allow the member to ask another question so that he can explain what he means, because I do not understand him. I am confused, and that is something that does not happen often. Yet my colleague is very good at confusing me, both in committee and in this House.

[Myron Thompson, Conservative, Wild Rose, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I listened to some of the answers that were given to specific questions, in particular by the last member, the Liberal lawyer. Bless her little pea picking heart. She just does not get it. She just does not understand exactly what it is that we are getting at.

I am putting it as plain as I can. A person is assaulted. It is traumatic and shocking. There is an arrest. The accused is in jail. The victim is at peace. The police did their job. Then the courts allow bail. How does that make the victim feel?

Do not fear. The judge tells the accused not to go near the victim. That does not mean squat to these criminals. When we are talking about violent offenders using guns and getting released on bail, it creates further trauma in the lives of victims. I really do not see why Liberals have so much difficulty understanding that.

I am extremely proud of the ministers in my party, both past and present, for pushing these kinds of pieces of legislation forward. They heard the message that I heard and that I have been hearing for 13 years: Canadians want us to do something about crime in this country, particularly violent crime. I applaud these people for bringing forward legislation that addresses many people's concerns.

I am pleased to hear that the NDP is supporting this bill, but to say the Conservatives only put it forward for political gains is nonsense. I know that every member in the House today heard the same message in their ridings. Canadians want us to clamp down on crime, particularly those involved with the use of guns. I am proud to be part of an organization that is attempting to do that.

The other thing I want to mention is the omnibus bill. Bloc and NDP members all seemed to insist that in order to do legislation properly there should be more pieces put together to form a big bill and cover all these things. For 13 years the justice committee has been dealing with omnibus bills brought forward by the previous government.

Here is the problem. In some of these omnibus bills there were certain aspects that I kind of liked and that my party was supportive of, but then there were other portions that we did not particularly like. Efforts were made to amend those portions to make them better and then finally we end up with a total package. The omnibus bill then comes before the House and we have to cast a ballot.

Like the old saying goes, if one takes a spoonful of sugar before the medicine goes down, one can swallow the whole idea more easily. I never ever felt good about supporting an omnibus bill that had certain sections in it that I could not support and yet other sections I could.

The biggest example I can think of is the child protection act. Over the years when we worked on that particular piece of legislation, we could never get one aspect right and that was how to deal with child pornography, one of the most evil acts in the country which has grown into a $1 billion industry because we did not do anything about it right from the very beginning. We attempted to, but could not do it because the legislation was concerned about the rights of certain individuals being trampled on, like freedom of expression or freedom of speech.

Then, some judge in a court case decided that child pornography might have some artistic merit. I think we all remember that. Suddenly the police had to take every item of child pornography they managed to confiscate and examine it carefully to make sure it did not have some artistic merit.

We all agreed about this in the House, and even the government thought it was a good idea, so it brought in another bill and tried to get rid of certain wording to make it right so that we could get after this child pornography. The Liberals tried “public good”, but nobody could agree that any child pornography would have any public good. Then they tried another term: “useful purpose”. After much debate, we could not go along with that either, so the omnibus bill had to leave in certain things that left it open to child pornography, such that people who offended others with that material could use some of those excuses to carry on with what has grown into a billion dollar industry today.

I do not feel very good about that, nor should any member of the House who has been here for the last few years. Nor should any member who is here today feel good about that happening. We should have broken up the omnibus bill and dealt with child pornography with legislation that would defeat one of the most evil things that occurs in our society. But we do not do that.

I know that bail has caused a lot of trauma in the lives of a lot of victims simply because the offenders are out again. Violent offenders are released on bail. It happens. My personal belief is that there should be no bail for any violent offender, but as for putting reverse onus on them, I can go along with it.

If the onus is on the individual to explain to me why he should be allowed bail, I will go along with that. I will not go along with this constant letting out on bail of people who have traumatized victims across the country only to traumatize them again because they are free again. It does not matter what kind of court order there is for these people not to go within 1,000 yards, or not to go to that site, or near a school or whatever. That does not matter to these offenders. Getting out is what matters to them.

This bill is an attempt to just bring in another measure of safety to our society, a little more protection. Our Canadian society has demanded a lot of things. We need to adapt to the changing times and the changing crimes going on today. We need to update and enhance our bail regime to reflect our collective denunciation of gun crimes, which I know we all do.

Let us leave the duck hunters alone. Let us leave the deer hunters alone. Let us go after the criminals. Somebody once said to me that we needed to get to the root cause of crime but we did not know where to start, and suddenly, eureka, someone discovered it: the root cause of crime is criminals.

Lo and behold, it is a new discovery: criminals cause crime. What makes that happen? We are not too certain in a lot of cases. We use some things to try to give them an excuse sometimes. We have to quit doing that. We need to address the fact that people in this country have to make choices, and the choices cannot be crime, because if that is the choice, they will not like the results.

Fighting crime includes preventive measures. I consider Bill C-35 part of those measures.

With Bill C-35, those accused of serious offences involving firearms or other regulated weapons will have to justify why they should get bail, and rightfully so. Canadian citizens expect those who pose a significant risk to public safety to be kept behind bars. That is what Canadian citizens expect. They want a criminal justice system that protects them from violent crimes. That has to include an effective bail regime.

This is only a small part of the things we need to do. Yes, I believe in rehabilitation, and I believe in prevention. I believe in getting to the root causes. We must deal with them, but at the same time we have to get a message out there to those who violently attack people with guns, or without, that it is no longer going to be acceptable, because Canadian citizens, who expect to be protected from these people, will be protected. I am pleased to be part of a group of people running this country at the present time who want to do exactly that.

We need new tools to combat crime and to ensure that our streets and our homes are safe. One of those tools is to make it more difficult for a person charged with serious violent crimes to get on bail. Bill C-35 will make that happen.

Bill C-35 will make bail more difficult to obtain for an accused who is charged with the following: a serious crime involving the use of a firearm, possession of a firearm for the purpose of trafficking, firearms smuggling, or with any weapon-related offence allegedly committed while the accused is bound by a weapons prohibitions order.

I ask all members of this House to please support these kinds of measures for the sake of the safety of our communities. Several of our large urban centres are now facing a new brand of criminality. The member from Edmonton who was in the House a few minutes ago made that point about the changes that are happening in his city involving the criminal use or illegal possession of firearms.

Innocent people are being affected by inner city gang violence, random shootings and armed robberies. We only have to go back to Boxing Day, that dreadful day, to remember that. And there are killings in schools. We need to protect Canadians from these threats.

On the recent trends with respect to gun crimes, I want to illustrate the threat that such crimes pose to public safety. According to 2005 statistics on crime, rapes, homicides and attempted murders increased in 2005.

Homicide is the most serious of all criminal acts, including first and second degree murder, manslaughter and infanticide. Following a 13% increase in 2004, the homicide rate increased by a further 4% in 2005. Police services reported a total of 658 homicides in 2005, 34 more than 2004. The rate of two homicides per 100,000 people was the highest since 1996.

The rate of attempted murders also increased by 14% in 2005. There were 772 attempted murders, 100 more than in the previous year. The rise in the number of homicides at the national level was primarily driven by large increases in Ontario, where there were 31 more homicides than in the previous year, and in Alberta, where the number of homicides for 2005 increased by 23.

Even if the overall crime rate was lower in Canada this past year, the crime rate for these violent offences was on the rise and continues to be on the rise.

According to a Statistics Canada 2005 homicide survey, gang related homicides as a percentage of all homicides continue to increase. The percentage of firearm homicides reported as being gang related was 2.1% in 1993, with 13 victims. It was up to 9.1% five years later in 1998, with 51 victims. In the last two years, there was an average of 78 victims each year, representing 13.4% of all firearm homicides.

According to this same report, the number and percentage of handguns used in firearm homicides have continued to increase over the last three decades. In 1974, 76 or 27% of all firearm homicides were committed with handguns. In 1984, 66 or 29% of all firearm homicides were committed by handguns. In 1994, the number increased considerably to 90 incidents, representing 46% of all firearm homicides. In spite of a very significant decrease in overall firearm homicides since the mid-1990s, the number of handgun homicides increased to 112 in 2004, which is 64% of the firearm homicides.

There has been a lot of emphasis in the speeches today with regard to the gun registry. Obviously these figures tell me that it is not the registry that is going to save the day. It is not working. It is causing a lot of grief for duck hunters and law-abiding people, but it does not appear to be causing enough grief for the criminal element.

With respect to firearm robberies, it should be noted that while firearm robberies have declined considerably over the last decades, the portion of handgun robberies has increased. In 2004, 85% of all firearm robberies were committed with handguns. The number of firearm robberies doubled in Nova Scotia between 2003 and 2004. Several metropolitan areas have firearm robbery rates well above the national rate. The rates for 2004 were: in Montreal, 24 per 100,000 population; in Winnipeg, 19.7 per 100,000 population; in Toronto, 18.6 per 100,000 population; and in Vancouver, 17.8 per 100,000 population.

All of these remain much higher than the national rate of 11.8 per 100,000 population. In spite of a downward trend in crime, as they say, it is beginning to skyrocket in other major centres.

Increases have also been noted in the use of handguns in other violent crimes, including firearm crimes such as attempted murder and extortion. The statistics compiled by the homicide squad of the Toronto police service for 2006 reflect these trends. There were 62 murders in Toronto as of November 22, 2006. Of the 46 persons that were arrested, 14 were on bail at the time of the murder and 17 were on court-ordered firearms prohibition orders. Let me repeat that: 14 were on bail at the time of the murder.

Whether we live in a big city such as Toronto or in a rural setting like mine, we all want to feel safe in our homes, on our streets and in our public places.

Communities, as well as participants in the justice system, have reason to be concerned about the release from custody of people involved in gun and gang related crimes. We need to protect Canadians who wish to go about their daily lives without the fear of being the victim of a crime. Most certainly, we need to go about our daily lives without the fear that some person in jail because of a very violent and heinous crime dare be released on bail only to traumatize the residents of that large city or that rural setting. The point is that this is happening far too often.

I applaud my minister for bringing forward legislation that attempts to help make our communities and our society safer. I will fight for that cause for as long I stand in the House of Commons. I never will give up that fight.

I beg all members of the House to hear the Canadian citizens. They are calling for measures to do what this bill would do, which is make our communities safer. Please support the bill.

[David Tilson, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I congratulate the member for Wild Rose on his usual excellent speech in the House, particularly for providing the facts as to the problems with gun related crimes in our society today.

For the life of me, I do not understand why there is so much opposition to this. To me, it is a no brainer. Some members of the official opposition have said that they do not object to the reverse onus clause per se. However, they and other members of the opposition would rather have an omnibus bill. The member for Wild Rose spent quite a bit of time one that.

They say that it will violate the charter. We hear this about every bill that is introduced in the House. The minister has indicated this legal people have said that it does not. Only the courts will decide that.

They are grumbling because it will go to a legislative committee as opposed to a standing committee. I do not understand that argument. They have asked what this will cost. That will be revealed in due course, I suppose. However, I assume from that, if it costs too much, we should not do it.

Would the member for Wild Rose respond to the objection on the cost.