Bill C-307 (Historical)

Phthalate Control Act

An Act respecting bis(2-ethylhexyl)phthalate, benzyl butyl phthalate and dibutyl phthalate

This enactment requires that, within 12 months after it comes into force, regulations respecting cosmetics that contain bis(2-ethylhexyl)phthalate be made under subsection 30(1) of the Food and Drugs Act.
The enactment also requires that, within 12 months after it comes into force, an order be made under section 6 of the Hazardous Products Act to add certain products to Part I of Schedule I to that Act.
The enactment further requires the Minister of Health to take steps to regulate the use and labelling of medical devices that contain bis(2-ethylhexyl)phthalate.
Finally, the enactment requires the Minister of the Environment and the Minister of Health to complete a reassessment of benzyl butyl phthalate and dibutyl phthalate under the Canadian Environmental Protection Act, 1999 within 24 months after the enactment comes into force.

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

We have a number of concerns with clause 3 as it's written.

First, the bill would take regulatory action on DBP and BBP without scientific assessments in support of that action. Risk assessments conducted in 1994 and 2000 found that DBP and BBP did not pose a risk to human health. Taking regulatory action without scientific evidence could result in legal challenges in trade disputes. Therefore, we're moving to withdraw references to DBP and BBP in clause 3.

We are, however, committed to reviewing new information on DBP and BBP. We will move to add a fifth clause to the bill that would commit the government to reassess DBP and BBP under CEPA. It will be amendment 15, which will be discussed further.

Secondly, as currently written, Bill C-307 would use CEPA to control phthalates in toys and other children's products. Again, these products are normally regulated under the Hazardous Products Act. We need to deal with the appropriate statute.

Our amendments would therefore replace clause 3 with one requiring the Governor in Council to make an order under the Hazardous Products Act to prohibit the use of DEHP products that could be put in the mouths of children less than three years of age.

Finally, Chair, the prohibition of DEHP for medical devices may result in effective devices being withdrawn from Canada. Alternative devices that are phthalate free have not yet been tested for all of the uses and, in some environments, are currently licensed devices. Without sufficient safety and effectiveness testing, these devices may introduce other safety risks to Canadians. No other country has stipulated a phase-out time for DEHP in medical devices. No other country has stipulated a phase-out time. We move to withdraw reference in the bill to regulations pertaining to DEHP in medical devices.

However, we're committed to phasing out phthalates in medical devices, starting with those used by the vulnerable populations, and they are children, pregnant women, and newborns. We will move to introduce other measures to meet those objectives. The objectives and motions are found in a new clause in amendment 15.

Thank you, Chair.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

It is.

I don't think anybody wants to leave this process, Mr. Chair, and deliver up ineffective legislation. I'm sure the writer of the private member's bill wants to see it work. We've got expert advice sitting in front of us here. We've received government amendments that are longer in text, I believe, than the entire Bill C-307 itself. I haven't heard, as a member of Parliament, the overarching rationale for these changes. It would be helpful, I think, for all members of Parliament to hear where this is taking us.

I think Mr. Cullen is absolutely right when he talks about one change having distributive effects later on and effectively gutting the bill. I don't think anyone is interested in gutting the bill. I assume we want to work and come out of here with a good piece of legislation that will achieve the ends that Mr. Cullen has put in terms of the overall essence of the bill.

I have heard nothing, but I have received and have had deposited in front of me 16 separate amendments from three parties. It would be useful not to commit to anything at this stage, but to hear what the rationale is here. Have we got this so fundamentally wrong?

I don't think, Monsieur Bigras, with all respect, that we can go on and consider these one after the other, rule them in or rule them out, and make changes if we don't have some overarching understanding of what the government is proposing. That would be my suggestion.

Can we hear a generalized statement? We were beginning to hear a statement from, I think, one of our witnesses, or perhaps Mr. Warawa. To put us in a situation where—This is not an apples and oranges situation. I don't think we want to say to Mr. Cullen that we're going to rewrite his bill completely, that it's going to be unrecognizable when it comes back to the House of Commons. But we need some kind of statement as to where we're going here.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Mills]

Thank you, Mr. Warawa.

I don't believe Mr. Cullen was that convinced of this. I think at this point I would have to take the clerk's advice and say that this amendment is beyond the scope of Bill C-307 and therefore rule it inadmissible.

We'll move on, and hopefully G-7 will, as you pointed out, clarify this.

Yes, Mr. Warawa.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Mills]

Before we get too deeply into debate of this issue, the clerk has advised me that there are some procedural problems with this particular amendment, as well, that members should be aware of. I can read those procedural problems, if you'd like. That might help to clarify.

This is now regarding amendment G-5, which is what we're discussing. It proposes to replace clause 2 in its entirety and establish a framework for making “regulations under subsection 30(1) of the Food and Drugs Act respecting cosmetics that contain bis(2-ethylhexyl)phthalate”.

Clause 2 is the interpretation section of Bill C-307 and provides a definition for the term “minister”. Amendment G-5 does not propose to amend this definition and is not relevant to clause 2.

As the House of Commons Procedure and Practice states on page 654, “An amendment to a bill that was referred to a committee after second reading is out of order if it is beyond the scope and principle of the bill.”

That's the procedural problem. Our Justice people are saying it's not a problem, so now it's up to the members of this committee to take a look at that and, of course, proceed as we desire.

Go ahead, Mr. Bigras.

[Jean-Sébastien Rochon, Counsel, Department of Justice]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

With the amendments proposed by the government, there would be no need to specify that “Minister” refers to the Minister of the Environment. The reason is that the motions put forward by the government would rely on the Food and Drugs Act, which is an act administered by the Minister of Health. The regulations made under this act are made by the Governor in Council.

I would also refer to the Hazardous Products Act, another act administered by the Minister of Health. Here again, orders and regulations made under this act are made by the Governor in Council.

Therefore, there's no need, with these amendments in mind, to specify that the minister referred to in Bill C-307 is going to be the Minister of the Environment.

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

I'd like to begin by noting that there are two chemical names for DEHP, and they are di(2-ethylhexyl)phthalate and bis(2-ethylhexyl)phthalate.

The current version of Bill C-307 uses the first name for DEHP. The listing of the substance in schedule 1 of CEPA uses the second name, bis(2-ethylhexyl)phthalate. Therefore, I'm proposing that we use bis(2-ethylhexyl)phthalate in the revised bill, and I have submitted this wording to the clerk of the committee in my proposed amendments. However, in my remarks today I'll refer to DEHP, just for simplicity and because it's the name the committee is used to using.

There are two concerns I have respecting clause 2. The first is that the current version of the bill requires that the Minister of the Environment be called upon to regulate the purposes that are related, in essence, to health protection. The amendments proposed by the government would remove the need to refer to the minister and instead would refer to the Governor in Council.

Second, Bill C-307, as it's currently written, would use CEPA to control phthalates in cosmetics. However, cosmetics are usually regulated under the Food and Drugs Act. Clause 2 would therefore be replaced by a clause that would regulate DEHP cosmetics under the Food and Drugs Act.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Mills]

Good morning, everybody.

Today we're looking at Bill C-307, Phthalate Control Act. We are going to proceed.

As you know, clause 1 will be postponed pursuant to Standing Order 75(1). We'll begin with clause 2.

(On clause 2--Definition of “Minister”)

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Mills]

Thank you.

Are there any comments?

I'd like to thank our guests for being here.

I'd just remind members that if you have any amendments to Bill C-307, we need those as quickly as possible, because we will be looking at this bill on Tuesday.

Thank you.

The meeting is adjourned.

[Marian Stanley, Manager, Phthalate Esters Panel, American Chemistry Council]

Good morning, Mr. Chair and honourable members. Thank you for the opportunity to testify before this committee.

My name is Marian Stanley. I'm a chemist by training. I'm a senior director at the American Chemistry Council and I've managed the Phthalate Esters Panel, which is a part of that council, for the last 17 years.

The panel represents the major producers of phthalate esters in the United States and North America. Since its inception in 1973, the panel has demonstrated its commitment to the safe use of its products by sponsoring health, safety, and environmental research.

The panel strongly supports the regulation of chemicals based on sound science. Phthalates are among the most well-studied chemicals on the planet and they have been the subject of hundreds of studies in laboratory animals and numerous government-sponsored assessments in Canada, the U.S., the EU, and Japan. These assessments have studied the risks to human health posed by exposure to phthalates.

The phthalate panel firmly believes the weight of scientific evidence demonstrates that the ban on phthalates proposed in Bill C-307 is unnecessary to protect human health. Bill C-307 proposes to ban butyl benzyl phthalate, dibutyl phthalate, and di(2-ethylhexyl) phthalate in products for use by a child in learning or play and in products that are put in the mouth of an infant when used. At the outset, the proposed ban of these three phthlates in children's toys would do little to protect children's health.

Butyl benzyl phthalate is most commonly used in flooring and insulating sealants. Dibutyl phthalate is used primarily in adhesives as a solvent for organic compounds and in nail polish. These are cellulosic plastics, not vinyl. Another way to think of this, think of screwdriver handles: they are also plasticized by dibutyl phthalate, a cellulosic plastic.

DEHP is used primarily in medical devices, as Dr. Cammack described, and in some soft plastic toys, as Ms. Axmith talked about—swim wings, plastic waterslides, but also in things like raincoats, backpacks, flip-flops, and other products children use in their daily life. These are not intended to be placed in the mouth by children and are safe as they're currently used.

In addition, numerous government risk assessments of these three phthalates have demonstrated that exposure to phthalates in toys and children's products generally poses no significant risk to children. Both the U.S. national toxicology program, the Center for the Evaluation of Risks to Human Reproduction, as Dr. Cammack described, and the European Union have performed risk assessments of these three phthalates proposed to be banned by Bill C-307, and these agencies have found no significant risk to children from exposure to these phthalates.

Similar to its being banned in toys, the proposed ban on DEHP in cosmetics would be of little benefit to human health because DEHP is not used in cosmetics. DEHP is a vinyl plasticizer, and, generally, what I put on my face isn't vinyl. As for dibutyl phthalate, exposure levels to dibutyl phthalate from nail polish are extremely low, such that the risks from exposure to DBP are minimal. For example, dibutyl phthalate exposure levels for the thousands of study participants derived from the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention biomonitoring data show that levels of exposure to dibutyl phthalate are well within the safety limits set by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency. These levels already incorporate a number of conservative safety margins. Because the animal data is reviewed, the no-effect level is then assessed, and the “up to 10,000 factor of safety” level is already applied, you've got a built-in precautionary system at work in North American regulatory agencies today.

I'd like to make two points. The measured exposures to dibutyl phthalate and the other phthalates are lower than previous estimates. Additionally, for dibutyl phthalate, the EPA has rereviewed the toxicology data and raised the safety factor for dibutyl phthalate threefold. In effect, that means that a woman using nail polish with dibutyl phthalate would have to use five bottles a day and absorb every single molecule of dibutyl phthalate to reach a level that caused no effect in rodents.

The U.S. Food and Drug Administration, which has regulatory authority over cosmetics, studied the CDC's biomonitoring data in 2001 and said it found no reason for consumers to be alarmed at the use of cosmetics containing phthalates. The FDA continues to evaluate available data on phthalates in cosmetics and has not seen any data that led it to take further steps. Moreover, an extensive 2002 review by the cosmetic ingredient review expert panel--this is an FDA-sanctioned independent body of toxicologists and dermatologists that regularly reviews all compounds used in cosmetics and personal care products--found that dibutyl phthalate and other phthalates used in cosmetics were safe as currently used.

Finally, the 2006 EU risk assessment of dibutyl phthalate mentioned above specifically found no concern for consumers using nail polish containing dibutyl phthalate.

The deck that you all have has a page on DEHP in medical devices. I won't go over that, since Dr. Cammack covered it so very thoroughly, but there are some highlights there for you to read at your leisure. On page seven in the deck that I've given you is a table that summarizes the reviews of the three phthalates that are included in Bill C-307. It looks at the reviews that were conducted in Canada, the European Union, and the United States. So this would be a very quick resource for you.

I'd like to conclude by saying that the extensive science shows that bans proposed in Bill C-307 are unnecessary to protect human health. The government-sponsored risk assessments in North America, Japan, and Europe have demonstrated that human exposure to phthalates in consumer products, including toys and cosmetics, is well below any level that has been shown to cause adverse health effects in laboratory animals, and they are well below government-established safety levels.

Consequently, the effect of these bans on phthalates proposed in Bill C-307 would be to place a significant burden on both manufacturers and retailers of phthalate-containing products and on the consumer and medical patients who rely on the performance and convenience made with phthalates, while it would provide no measurable benefits to human health. For this reason, the phthalate esters panel opposes Bill C-307.

Thank you for your time.

[Marion Axmith, Director General, Vinyl Council of Canada]

Thank you very much.

Good morning, Mr. Chair and honourable members of the committee.

My name is Marion Axmith. I'm the director general of the Vinyl Council of Canada, which is a council of the Canadian Plastics Industry Association. I've been with CPIA for 24 years and I've worked on the Vinyl Council managing the Vinyl Council for the past 14 years.

Our members include a wide range of companies, from resin producers to additive suppliers, compounders, processors or manufacturers, and recyclers. The Canadian plastics industry is about a $51-billion industry. It employs approximately 150,000 Canadians.

The Vinyl Council members are members of a responsible industry within Canadian society. In 1999 we launched our environment management program to manage and reduce our environmental footprint. The program is a commitment to manufacture vinyl products in a safe and environmentally responsible manner. It is our road map to ensure we protect the environment and health during manufacture, use, recycle, and disposal of our products. We continually improve our performance. We strive for sustainability and we improve our capacity to listen to all our stakeholders.

We are here to speak to you about Bill C-307, which is an act to prohibit the use of three phthalates—BBP, DBP, and DEHP—in certain products. We are here to argue that Bill C-307, in its current form, is not necessary, as it circumvents the existing CEPA process for evaluating the safety of chemicals in Canada.

Incidentally, Canada has one of the best screening processes for chemicals in the world today. As I'm sure you're aware, CEPA has already screened 23,000 chemicals over the past six years or so. They've identified 199 of these for further review, and none of these phthalates, which are the subject of this bill, are on that list. They're not on that list because they have been assessed and they are not substances of concern.

What are phthalates? You've heard Dr. Cammack talk about DEHP, but generally phthalates are a class of compounds used mostly with a plastic called vinyl to make that plastic soft and flexible without compromising the strength of the vinyl. As Dr. Cammack said, DEHP has been used safety in medical devices for almost half a century and it provides many very useful benefits, including flexibility, a resistance to kinking, and the ability to withstand harsh sterilization methods while at the same time remaining very cost-effective.

Of the other two phthalates, BBP is most commonly used in flooring, carpet tile, caulking, and sealants. DBP is actually not used in vinyl at all and it is not found in children's toys. The main use for that one is in adhesives, cosmetics, and mostly nail polish.

On DEHP, Dr. Cammack covered the medical devices side. It is used in some plastic toys, inflatable toys like beach balls or water wings, that sort of toy, but it is not used in toys that are put in the mouth by children.

The product that keeps coming up and keeps getting mentioned is teethers. Most of the teethers made in Canada today are not made from vinyl. They do not have phthalates in them. They're made from silicone. So phthalates used primarily in vinyl are a very important part of our everyday lives.

In the next slide in front of you we've covered most of the benefits of the product, so I'll move directly to page 6.

Industry's perspective is that science should prevail here. We feel it's very important to remove this debate from the political arena and move it to the scientific and medical arena, where it can be properly studied and reviewed. The weight of scientific evidence to date demonstrates that bans on phthalates are unnecessary to protect human health.

As you're aware from your March 20 meeting, Health Canada has expressed concerns about the legislation as it is currently written, and I'd simply like to take you through some quotes that I pulled out of the transcript of that meeting from Mr. Paul Glover, who is the director general of the safe environments program of Health Canada. These are quotes and these are some of the things Mr. Glover said at the March 20 meeting:

The risks posed by these substances to human health and to the environment were formally assessed under CEPA. The assessments for BBP and DBP were published in 1994 and in 2000 respectively. Both of those were found not to be CEPA-toxic, and therefore no further action was required under CEPA. That was primarily on the basis of exposure, or the lack of it.

...we also have no long-term safety data on the alternative chemicals used for medical devices. It is important to note that some phthalate-free medical devices have not yet been tested for all of the same indications of use as if they had phthalates in them. Therefore, it may not be suitable to simply substitute these.

So the Vinyl Council would respectfully like to put on the table two proposed amendments to this bill. The first one occurs in clause 3, to amend that, on page 1 of the bill, by replacing lines 9 and 10 with the following:

the coming into force of this Act in accordance with the Canadian Environmental Protection Act, direct Environment Canada and Health Canada to review the use of the three phthalates: BBP, DVP, DEHP.

The second amendment refers to clause 3 on page 2, by deleting lines 9 and 10, which in effect would delete “medical devices” from the bill.

In summary, I want to stress that the Canadian plastics industry is a very responsible sector. We care deeply about the health and safety of Canadians. The Canadian public is our clientele. Canada has one of the best screening systems in the world for assessing chemicals, and we are asking that CEPA and the CEPA review process be allowed to work. Use this excellent system that the government has put in place.

We cannot make policy based on rumour, innuendo, and fear-mongering. Follow the science, use the excellent CEPA screening system that already exists.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Environment and Sustainable Development

[Bob Mills, Conservative, Red Deer, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I have the honour to present, in both official languages, the fourth report of the Standing Committee on Environment and Sustainable Development in relation to requesting an extension of 30 sitting days under Standing Order 97.1(1), to consider Bill C-307, An Act to prohibit the use of benzyl butyl phthalate (BBP), dibutyl phthalate (DBP) and di(2-ethylhexyl)phthalate (DEHP) in certain products and to amend the Canadian Environmental Protection Act, 1999.

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

I was a little disappointed that this motion cut into the time for private members' business. I think Mr. Cullen's Bill C-307 is an important bill, and we had to cut the discussion short. We all had to reduce the amount of questioning time to be able to deal with this motion before us.

Bill C-298, PFOS, is another very important private member's bill. We had to cut back discussion on both these bills to deal with this.

Mr. McGuinty has said he's doing this to clear up the confusion. I don't believe there is confusion in the committee. The committee can choose to discuss whatever we want. We've been notified that the minister will be here to answer questions on whatever we want to ask him. So the motion is redundant, and it tragically cut into valuable time to deal with private members' business. I don't believe there's confusion around this table.

[Paul Glover, Director General, Safe Environments Program, Department of Health]

Yes, I will, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman and committee members. It's a pleasure to be here and to have the opportunity to speak to this bill.

As you are aware, Health Canada is responsible for helping Canadians maintain and improve their health while respecting their individual choices and circumstances. We work to prevent and reduce risks to individual health and to the overall environment. We also protect Canadians and facilitate the provision of products vital to their health and well-being.

Our department regulates and approves the use of thousands of products, including medical devices and chemical substances. We do this by being risk-based, and it's important for that to be a critical element as we move forward on this. “Risk-based” means you take a look at both the hazardous profile of a substance and at the exposure, and put those two things together to say whether there is a likelihood harm will result. It is not simply based on the hazardous properties of the substance; it is those properties and the likelihood of exposure that drive the department to act.

Health Canada, to be clear, supports the human health objectives of Bill C-307. However, we do have some concerns with the bill as it is currently written. Please allow me to elaborate.

We've heard a lot this morning about different types of phthalates--BBP, DBP, DEHP. There is a range of phthalates. Three of these phthalates mentioned in the bill have received government action since early in the 1990s. The risks posed by these substances to human health and to the environment were formally assessed under CEPA.

The assessments for BBP and DBP were published in 1994 and in 2000 respectively. Both of those were found not to be CEPA-toxic, and therefore no further action was required under CEPA. That was primarily on the basis of exposure, or the lack of it. DEHP, as you've heard, was found to meet the criteria of CEPA-toxic and was added to schedule 1 of CEPA, giving the government the authority to take regulatory action if necessary.

In addition to the CEPA risk assessments that I mentioned, actions were taken to address risks to human health posed by DEHP in products that pose the greatest risks of health based on the exposure to children. In 1998, based on a risk assessment, Health Canada issued a public advisory on soft PVC toys and child care products containing another type of phthalate, DINP, for which there was a demonstrated health risk through prolonged daily mouthing by children under three years of age--so it was in products designed to go into children's mouths. Canadian industry was requested to immediately stop the sale and production of products containing DINP.

In anticipation of a similar request on DEHP, Canadian industry voluntarily removed DEHP from use in production of children's products likely to be mouthed or chewed, such as soothers and teethers. In essence, we took action on DINP; the industry saw the writing coming and, ahead of us, took voluntary action to remove DEHP at the same time. Although this is a voluntary agreement, Health Canada has evidence that indicates the agreement is working. A 2007 Health Canada survey of child care and other products likely to be mouthed by children under three years of age supports this conclusion. Based on 52 samples collected in 14 different retail outlets, the study did not find any phthalates in child care products intended for mouthing, such as pacifiers and teethers.

We can turn now to the issue of medical devices containing DEHP. Health Canada is very cognizant of this issue. You have heard about the expert panel; in 2003 Health Canada posted on its website a draft position paper for medical devices containing DEHP that included the expert advisory committee's recommendations to develop clinical practice guidelines. This position paper is currently being finalized and will be promoted to the medical community this year.

Next we can turn to cosmetics. They are regulated under the cosmetics regulations made under the Food and Drugs Act, which prohibit the sale of cosmetics that may contain any substance that may cause any risk to the health of the users when the cosmetic is used. The cosmetics regulations require that cosmetics be notified to Health Canada with a list of ingredients and their concentrations within ten days of a cosmetic's sale in Canada.

Neither DBP nor DEHP is found on the cosmetic ingredient hotlist, which you heard of earlier. It doesn't, by the way, require a CEPA assessment, but it does require an assessment to go on the Health Canada list of substances; they're not on that hotlist.

Neither DBP nor DEHP has been found in cosmetics products notified to Health Canada in the work that we have done.

Health Canada believes there is merit to take additional measures to predict the risks of phthalates to the health of Canadians, especially young children, but Bill C-307 is problematic as currently written. Our specific concerns include the following.

DEHP is already on schedule 1 of CEPA, so such an action is not necessary.

Second, given that DBP and BBP were assessed and found not CEPA-toxic, deciding now to add them to schedule 1 without the benefit of reassessment would be problematic and would disregard the evidence-based processes under CEPA. In essence, we have to go back and reassess those before the ministers could approach the Governor in Council to say that there has been a change.

Third, we are concerned with the way the bill is currently written that Bill C-307 may contravene Canada's international trade obligations by imposing technical regulations on imported products without supporting scientific evidence—that is, we have old risk assessments that, if not updated, could create legal concerns for us.

Fourth, with respect to the prohibition of DEHP in medical devices except blood bags, it should be noted that none of Canada's major trading partners, including the United States and the European Union, have prohibited DEHP in medical devices. In the case of the European Union, the European Parliament has urged national governments to restrict the use of DEHP in medical devices for vulnerable groups, except where such restrictions would have a negative impact on medical treatments.

Five, we also have no long-term safety data on the alternative chemicals used for medical devices. It is important to note that some phthalate-free medical devices have not yet been tested for all of the same indications of use as if they had phthalates in them. Therefore, it may not be suitable to simply substitute these out. We would need to assess them further. The bill as written could mean that Canadians might not have access to life-saving medical devices in that case.

Finally, Bill C-307 would use CEPA to control phthalates in products. While that's possible, CEPA may not be the most effective federal act to manage the risks posed by the phthalates in question. Cosmetics are regulated under the Food and Drugs Act; consumer products, including products for children, fall under the Hazardous Products Act.

So as I said from the outset, we do support the human health aspects of this bill, but we feel that, as currently written, there are a number of problems.

We thank you for the opportunity.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Mills]

Good. Thank you.

I'd like to thank our guests. Mr. Carreau, you made it, and with no beeper. Hopefully, it all goes well later with your beeper.

We will just suspend for a moment to change witnesses, and we'll go on to Bill C-307.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Mills]

We have a quorum.

I would just like to review quickly with members what I hope to accomplish.

Obviously we have two private members' bills that we're looking at today: Bill C-298 and Bill C-307. As you can see, we've allocated 45 minutes for each of these bills. So I would like to ask members, if they would agree, to go to five minutes on the questions on the first round instead of the normal ten minutes. That way we can get the maximum number of questions.

Our other question will be that we have now scheduled Bill C-298 from 11 o'clock until 11:45, with the possibly of extending that 15 minutes if necessary, due to the motion already having been dealt with. We'll wait until Mr. McGuinty gets here. Mr. Regan will talk to him; he understands what I'm trying to do.

I will hold you to five minutes. Perhaps we could start with Bill C-298. As you can see, we have witnesses and we have department people here as well. So if we could keep it to five minutes, and I would ask our witnesses as well if they could keep it as short as possible, five minutes ideally, then we will have the maximum time for questions and can get through both these bills.

Perhaps you could begin, Mr. Khatter.