Canada-EFTA Free Trade Agreement Implementation Act

An Act to implement the Free Trade Agreement between Canada and the States of the European Free Trade Association (Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway, Switzerland), the Agreement on Agriculture between Canada and the Republic of Iceland, the Agreement on Agriculture between Canada and the Kingdom of Norway and the Agreement on Agriculture between Canada and the Swiss Confederation

This bill was last introduced in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session, which ended in December 2009.

This bill was previously introduced in the 40th Parliament, 1st Session.

Sponsor

Stockwell Day  Conservative

Status

This bill has received Royal Assent and is now law.

Summary

This is from the published bill. The Library of Parliament often publishes better independent summaries.

This enactment implements the Free Trade Agreement and the bilateral agreements between Canada and the Republic of Iceland, the Principality of Liechtenstein, the Kingdom of Norway and the Swiss Confederation signed at Davos on January 26, 2008.
The general provisions of the enactment specify that no recourse may be taken on the basis of the provisions of Part 1 of the enactment or any order made under that Part, or the provisions of the Free Trade Agreement or the bilateral agreements themselves, without the consent of the Attorney General for Canada.
Part 1 of the enactment approves the Free Trade Agreement and the bilateral agreements and provides for the payment by Canada of its share of the expenditures associated with the operation of the institutional aspects of the Free Trade Agreement and the power of the Governor in Council to make orders for carrying out the provisions of the enactment.
Part 2 of the enactment amends existing laws in order to bring them into conformity with Canada’s obligations under the Free Trade Agreement and the bilateral agreements.
Part 3 of the enactment provides for its coming into force.

Elsewhere

All sorts of information on this bill is available at LEGISinfo, an excellent resource from the Library of Parliament. You can also read the full text of the bill.

Votes

March 30, 2009 Passed That the Bill be now read a third time and do pass.
March 30, 2009 Failed That the motion be amended by deleting all the words after the word “That” and substituting the following: “Bill C-2, An Act to implement the Free Trade Agreement between Canada and the States of the European Free Trade Association (Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway, Switzerland), the Agreement on Agriculture between Canada and the Republic of Iceland, the Agreement on Agriculture between Canada and the Kingdom of Norway and the Agreement on Agriculture between Canada and the Swiss Confederation, be not now read a third time but be referred back to the Standing Committee on International Trade for the purpose of reconsidering clause 33 with a view to re-examining the phase out of shipbuilding protections”.
March 12, 2009 Passed That Bill C-2, An Act to implement the Free Trade Agreement between Canada and the States of the European Free Trade Association (Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway, Switzerland), the Agreement on Agriculture between Canada and the Republic of Iceland, the Agreement on Agriculture between Canada and the Kingdom of Norway and the Agreement on Agriculture between Canada and the Swiss Confederation, {as amended}, be concurred in at report stage [with a further amendment/with further amendments] .
March 12, 2009 Failed That Bill C-2 be amended by deleting Clause 33.
Feb. 5, 2009 Passed That the Bill be now read a second time and referred to the Standing Committee on International Trade.

Canada-EFTA Free Trade Agreement Implementation ActGovernment Orders

February 2nd, 2009 / 3:15 p.m.
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Liberal

The Speaker Liberal Peter Milliken

When debate was interrupted prior to question period, the hon. member for Berthier—Maskinongé had the floor. He has 15 minutes to complete his remarks.

The member for Berthier—Maskinongé.

Canada-EFTA Free Trade Agreement Implementation ActGovernment Orders

February 2nd, 2009 / 3:15 p.m.
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Bloc

Guy André Bloc Berthier—Maskinongé, QC

Mr. Speaker, I thank you for allowing me to continue my remarks. I will repeat part of my speech on Bill C-2 An Act to implement the Free Trade Agreement between Canada and the States of the European Free Trade Association. Earlier, I examined the advantages and disadvantages of this agreement. There are, of course, more advantages than disadvantages and this is why we are supporting this free trade agreement.

One major disadvantage, however, involves the shipbuilding industry. We in fact tabled a motion with the Standing Committee on International Trade to have government support the shipbuilding industry in the coming years. When this agreement comes into effect, Norway's significant investment in its industry could pose a threat to the economic viability of some Quebec and Canadian businesses.

I continue in this regard. We might well expect that Swiss pharmaceutical companies might consider manufacturing their products in Quebec in an effort to penetrate the American market more easily. This would be an advantage for Quebec and would mean more investment there. This is one reason we support the agreement.

Let us take a look at the case of Norway. Nickel represents over 80% of Canada's exports to Norway. This is another advantage. The largest mine in Canada, which belongs to a Swiss company and is third largest in the world, is located in Quebec, in Ungava. So the agreement could significantly benefit Quebec and its mining industry.

I could list other benefits, but, overall, we support this agreement because it offers sizeable trading possibilities for Quebeckers. It has the added benefit of not incorporating the failings of previous agreements. For example, as we all know, the North American Free Trade Agreement and the agreements with Costa Rica and Chile contain an unfortunate chapter on investment. There is the agreement the Conservatives have just signed with Colombia, a country with a poor human rights, labour and environmental record, which is not the case in this agreement. The chapter in question allows businesses to sue a government adopting measures that limit their profits.

This sort of provision is not contained in the free trade agreement with Europe, which pleases the Bloc Québécois. In short, these four European countries respect human rights and, of course, workers' rights.

I should also say that the Free Trade Agreement between Canada and the States of the European Free Trade Association covers only goods and not services. This provision ensures that services to the public will not be opened to competition, whether they are provided by the government or not, because they are simply not included. The same is true of financial services. Bankers will therefore not be exposed to competition from the famously efficient Swiss banking system.

This is also true of government procurement. The federal government will be able to give preference to Canadian suppliers, except as provided in the WTO agreement on public procurement. This is very important because the federal government is the largest purchaser of goods and services in Canada.

I would also like to mention agriculture and especially supply management. My colleague from Richmond—Arthabaska tabled a motion protecting supply management in Quebec and Canada. This is also very important in my riding of Berthier—Maskinongé. The Bloc Québécois and our colleague, who had this motion passed, will continue to defend supply management and insist on preserving it in its entirety.

We do not think that this agreement poses any threat to the integrity of the supply management system. We are very proud of how we protect supply management, hence the importance of the Bloc Québécois, which made sure that this motion was passed. We believe that our farmers and consumers are best served by this system.

It is hardly surprising that the Bloc Québécois would continue to insist on preserving the supply management system under this agreement. We are satisfied with the bilateral agricultural accords in it because goods produced under supply management are still protected, and that is the important thing.

The agricultural agreement with Switzerland provides for the elimination of the within-quota tariff, but this applies only to the market segment already covered by imports. The elimination of this tariff will therefore have only a marginal impact on our dairy farmers because the tariff quotas and the over-quota tariffs stay the same. We should also not forget that milk proteins are excluded from the agreement. On the other hand—and this is very important—the elimination of the 7% tariff under this agreement makes it even more imperative for the federal government to maintain a firm position at the WTO, that is to say, supply management is simply non-negotiable and the Bloc Québécois will continue to insist that the supply management system be defended in its entirety at the WTO. I hope that the Conservatives and their Liberal friends—who sometimes surprise us, as with the passage of this budget—have fully understood this message.

However, we are worried about the future of our shipyards. I spoke about this a little bit before question period, but I want to come back to this very important point within this agreement. At present, imported vessels are subject to a 25% tariff. Under the agreement, these tariffs will gradually decrease and will be completely phased out in 15 years. Obviously the planned adjustment period will not be useful unless it is coupled with a vigorous adjustment and modernization program for shipyards.

Norway has grasped this quite well. In recent years, the Norwegian government has invested heavily in modernizing its shipyards. Because it receives support from its government, the industry in Norway is now productive and highly competitive in foreign markets. In Canada, the federal government, be it Liberal or Conservative, has done nothing to support our shipbuilding industry. It has not supported shipbuilding since 1988. The Liberals and Conservatives have totally neglected, if not abandoned, our shipyards to the point where today they are less modern, less productive and thus less and less competitive in international markets.

With this free trade agreement, the federal government cannot drag its heels any longer. We have 15 years—a decent amount of time—to prepare ourselves before the tariffs on imported vessels are phased out completely, hence the importance of implementing a real maritime policy. This is the only recommendation that was included in the report from the Standing Committee on International Trade and it was part of a Bloc Québécois motion moved at this committee.

This is the motion, and I hope that the government will take action to this effect:

—the Canadian government must without delay implement an aggressive Maritime policy to support the industry, while ensuring that any such strategy is in conformity with Canada's commitments at the WTO.

The purpose of the motion was to urge the government to take action and introduce a comprehensive support strategy for the shipbuilding industry, a strategy to facilitate the industry's access to capital, stimulate investment, give preference to local suppliers in public procurement and, of course, encourage shipowners to buy their ships here at home.

After so many years of government inaction and apathy with respect to the many challenges facing our shipbuilding industry, the federal government must bring forward, without delay, an effective, comprehensive policy to support and develop the shipbuilding sector in Quebec and Canada.

When it comes to supporting industrial sectors that are experiencing problems, the Conservative government practises a laissez-faire approach. For shipyards, as for the manufacturing sector—a major presence in my riding, Berthier—Maskinongé—in which Quebec has lost thousands of jobs, we believe that this laissez-faire policy is totally irresponsible and must stop.

I have to say that, in light of the Conservatives' most recent budget, which received Liberal support, we will have to devote a lot of energy to making sure that the federal government does not abandon Quebec's shipbuilding industry. In the latest budget, the Conservative leader chose to respond to the demands of Ontario and its automotive industry by offering some $4 billion in assistance, while Quebec's manufacturing sector will be getting just a few million dollars.

These measures, which are unfair to Quebec and were supported by the leader of the Liberal Party, are further proof that we must be vigilant. Let me make it very clear that we still believe this free trade agreement is a good thing, and we support it. But we have to insist that the federal government bring forward an effective plan to help the shipbuilding industry. Promises are not enough when it comes to this.

I would like to close by emphasizing that I think this free trade agreement is a step in the right direction. As I said earlier before question period, I think it is important to diversify our markets and reduce our dependency on U.S. markets. This agreement with the European Free Trade Association is a good one, but it is limited. What we really want is the power to sign a free trade agreement with the European Union that will produce meaningful, productive results in all of our trade with European countries.

Although the four countries that make up this association represent only 1% of Canadian imports, the European Union has 495 million inhabitants who generate nearly 31% of global gross domestic product. The fact that Canada has not yet signed a free trade agreement with the European Union considerably diminishes the competitiveness of our businesses on the European market. It is important to note, for example, that Mexico has had a free trade agreement with the European Union since 2000. Thus, a company that does business in Mexico would definitely have a greater interest in moving part of its production there, since that would open up access to the European market, while maintaining its access to the American market through NAFTA. This situation must be corrected.

We support the agreement we are discussing here today, but negotiations must be ramped up, so that a free trade agreement between Canada and the European Union can finally be reached. Furthermore, a free trade agreement with the European Union would also prove beneficial in terms of investments. Indeed, together with NAFTA, the agreement would make it attractive for European companies to use Quebec and Canada as their gateway to the North American market and consequently to move some of their production here.

As a final point, since nearly 40% of European investments in Canada are in Quebec, it would certainly be a desirable location for European companies that want to invest in North America. We hope this government will quickly reach an agreement with the European Union, because it would be the best way to diversify our economy.

Canada-EFTA Free Trade Agreement Implementation ActGovernment Orders

February 2nd, 2009 / 3:30 p.m.
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NDP

Peter Stoffer NDP Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS

Mr. Speaker, I understand the premise of my colleague's comments that trade deals are not inherently a bad thing. If they can assist our economy, our workers and our material products, that is a good thing, but the reality is that in every trade deal one has to trade something away to get something back.

In an earlier intervention, my colleague indicated that this is possibly a very good deal for pharmaceutical companies, but as he has pointed out, it is not such a great deal for shipbuilding companies. In fact, in 2001, gentlemen he is probably aware of, Philippe Tremblay, Les Holloway, Peter Cairns and Peter Woodward, along with Brian Tobin, the industry minister at the time, came up with some recommendations. The document, “Breaking Through”, gave five recommendations for the shipbuilding industry. Unfortunately, it is eight years later and not one of those recommendations has been implemented.

If this bill ends up in committee and the government refuses to accept any amendments that would assist in aiding the shipbuilding industry, will he on behalf of his party continue to support this deal, if there are no improvements in the deal for the shipbuilding industry in this country and in Quebec?

Canada-EFTA Free Trade Agreement Implementation ActGovernment Orders

February 2nd, 2009 / 3:35 p.m.
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Bloc

Guy André Bloc Berthier—Maskinongé, QC

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank my hon. colleague from the NDP for his question. I would also like to point out to him that, of course, this bill has been referred to committee. As he knows full well, a Bloc Québécois motion currently before the committee calls upon the government to provide greater support for shipbuilding.

Together with the NDP and Liberal members who voted for the motion, we will press the government to take action to support shipbuilding. However, as the hon. member indicated, other aspects of this agreement promote Quebec's interests and meet its needs.

Reference was made to the pharmaceutical industry, which we think is a very important industry, but we must not forget the nickel industry, nickel representing 80% of our exports. The largest nickel mine in Ungava is owned by a Swiss corporation. Aluminum is the main export product in Iceland as well. Again, production is overwhelmingly concentrated in Quebec. These are all reasons for us to support Bill C-2.

Of course, I agree with the hon. member: when the Bloc Québécois votes in favour of a bill in this House, it is always with the needs and interests of Quebeckers in mind. As long as this bill meets the needs and aspirations of Quebec, we will support it. Should the bill be referred to committee and no longer meet the Bloc's expectations, we will have to reconsider.

Canada-EFTA Free Trade Agreement Implementation ActGovernment Orders

February 2nd, 2009 / 3:35 p.m.
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Bloc

Serge Cardin Bloc Sherbrooke, QC

Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask my colleague a question. Just this morning I asked the Minister of International Trade a question about measures for the shipbuilding industry.

We know very well that Norway, a party to this free trade agreement, provided very large subsidies for many years to its industry to develop its expertise and global competitiveness. Given the new guidelines for direct subsidies to industries, Norway now has less leeway.

Today, to compete with Norway and shipbuilding firms from all over the world, Canadian and Quebec shipbuilders need a certain amount of assistance in order to modernize while tariffs are being phased out. This process will start in three years and will take place over 15 years. The Bloc Québécois presented several measures in this regard and firmly believes that the government should implement them.

I would like to go back to the question I asked the minister this morning. Rather than stating that he would be introducing measures to assist with the development of the shipbuilding industry, he merely stated that he would be watching carefully that Norway does not provide further subsidies. However, that is not the problem. If we want to have a healthy shipbuilding industry, we need to have measures in place.

I would ask my colleague to elaborate on the measures presented by the Bloc Québécois.

Canada-EFTA Free Trade Agreement Implementation ActGovernment Orders

February 2nd, 2009 / 3:35 p.m.
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Bloc

Guy André Bloc Berthier—Maskinongé, QC

Mr. Speaker, as I mentioned in my remarks, the Bloc Québécois has put forward various measures. My colleague from Sherbrooke referred to one in his question to the minister. In the budget, $175 million is to go towards promote shipbuilding and refitting, among other things. With this agreement, the government can promote local purchasing, in Quebec and Canada, for new vessel construction. This is a step toward encouraging and supporting shipbuilding. In the case of bus manufacturing, as one example, the government spent our money in dealings with countries outside Quebec and Canada. This does not help our industries. This is a specific measure. Money has been allocated to promoting buying in Quebec and Canadian.

Canada-EFTA Free Trade Agreement Implementation ActGovernment Orders

February 2nd, 2009 / 3:40 p.m.
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NDP

Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC

Mr. Speaker, I listened with considerable interest to the remarks by my colleague, a former member of the Standing Committee on International Trade. I have a question for him.

In the case of softwood lumber, we saw the mistake the Bloc unfortunately made. We know just what a mistake it was to vote in favour of an agreement that cost tens of thousands of jobs in Quebec. The bill before us will do the same thing. Jobs will no doubt be lost in the shipbuilding industry in Quebec. The Conservative government will not admit this. That is their style.

I want to know whether the Bloc members are prepared to vote with the NDP to block this bill. We know it will do more harm than good to industry in Quebec and throughout Canada. It will hurt industry.

Canada-EFTA Free Trade Agreement Implementation ActGovernment Orders

February 2nd, 2009 / 3:40 p.m.
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Bloc

Guy André Bloc Berthier—Maskinongé, QC

Mr. Speaker, the question from my colleague and my former colleague on the Standing Committee on International Trade is a good one. He raises the matter of softwood lumber. It is a very good question, and I have had discussions with him a number of times to help him understand that we, the Bloc Québécois, are here to defend the interests and aspirations of Quebeckers. When the softwood lumber agreement came along, unions and a number of businesses, such as Conseil de l'industrie forestière du Québec with Guy Chevrette, told us to support it. We did. We consulted all the economic players concerned with the Quebec forestry industry, which were unfortunately caught in a financial stranglehold, and they told us to sign—

Canada-EFTA Free Trade Agreement Implementation ActGovernment Orders

February 2nd, 2009 / 3:40 p.m.
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Bloc

Serge Cardin Bloc Sherbrooke, QC

By the Liberals and Conservatives.

Canada-EFTA Free Trade Agreement Implementation ActGovernment Orders

February 2nd, 2009 / 3:40 p.m.
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Bloc

Guy André Bloc Berthier—Maskinongé, QC

They were being strangled by the Liberals and Conservatives, as my colleague from Sherbrooke has said. So, they told us to sign the agreement.

In the case of this free trade agreement with the European free trade association, we will work along the same lines. If the agreement meets the needs and aspirations of Quebec, we will support it. If it does not, we will oppose it. In the present context, and as I said earlier, we support this free trade agreement in a number of sectors, such as that of the pharmaceutical industry, nickel and aluminum. Shipbuilding needs more attention in this agreement. We will work on it in committee.

Canada-EFTA Free Trade Agreement Implementation ActGovernment Orders

February 2nd, 2009 / 3:40 p.m.
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NDP

Peter Stoffer NDP Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS

Mr. Speaker, I thank the House for the opportunity to discuss one of my favourite subjects, which is shipbuilding. Since I arrived here in June 1997, it is one of the issues that I have been raising over and over and over again. In fact, our party is the only political party that has a designated critic for the shipbuilding industry and that is because we understand the vital importance of this industry to our economy from coast to coast to coast and within our inland waters.

I also want to thank my colleague from Burnaby—New Westminster for his great work not only on the softwood lumber deal, on which he has proven to be correct time and time again, but now on the EFTA deal and the effect it will have on shipbuilders. I am not going to reiterate his speech in the House, but he quoted verbatim various people from labour and industry, as well as consultants who work in the industry and follow the industry very closely. It is their livelihood. When they appeared before the committee, they mentioned their concerns and the murky waters that Canada is getting into when it comes to this agreement and the effect it will have on the shipbuilding industry.

We have looked at it very carefully and the reality is this agreement will do no good for this particular industry. I know that does not sound proper English, but I do not have my thesaurus with me, so I will muddle through this. The reality is the EFTA deal will not be of any benefit at all to our shipbuilding industry. We hear consistently from the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of International Trade that our shipbuilders can compete with anybody in the world. He is absolutely correct, but the reality is it is very difficult to compete against a country like Norway, whose industry has been heavily subsidized for over 30 years.

We do not have much of a problem with Liechtenstein, Iceland or Switzerland. They are great countries. In other aspects of our society, when it comes to shrimp products, blueberries, possibly pharmaceuticals and others, this deal would probably be beneficial for both sides. There is nothing wrong with getting into trade deals with countries that have modern civil rights, human rights, environmental standards and labour standards. This is what we should be doing to lift the rising tides of all workers and companies in all of those countries.

However, we notice that the government signed a trade deal with Colombia. Colombia has openly had a bounty on labour personnel. If a person in the labour union is killed, there is a particular bounty. Many people from the religious and labour sectors have disappeared in Colombia and we hear from the parliamentary secretary that the Conservatives had concerns about this when they signed the deal. Well, they never should have signed the deal unless those human rights violations were addressed and stopped immediately. That is how one works on getting a proper deal.

Getting back to EFTA, the reality of the situation is that in every free trade agreement that has been signed by the United States since 1924, America, our largest trading partner, has carved out and excluded shipbuilding and marine industries from the discussions. If the United States of America, our largest trading partner, can do that, why cannot Canada? In fact, I would like to see anyone from the Liberal Party or the Conservative Party stand up and tell us in what industry, in what area we have ever asked for a carve out on anything.

We are also very concerned about our farmers and future trade deals through the WTO and all those other things and what is going to happen to supply management. As we know, when members of the Reform Party came to this House, they were opposed to supply management. Just recently, they had an epiphany and now vocally state that they support supply management. If the parliamentary secretary is to be taken at his word that our shipbuilders should be able to compete with the entire world without any protective barriers, then would the same not apply to our farmers? We know New Zealand and other countries want to get rid of our supply management, but we say no to them because we want to protect supply management. We are willing to protect a vital industry in our country called agriculture. We support that, but why then can those same principles not apply to shipbuilding?

Ever since 1924 the United States has carved out this industry from them. When we entered into a free trade deal with the United States in the 1980s, Senator Pat Carney from B.C. was there. The United States brought in the Jones act which excluded shipbuilding and marine services exclusively from the trade deal with Canada. Why did it do that? Because in order to operate between New York and Florida, it has to be American built, American registered and American crude. We do not have those rules in Canada. The reality is that an American ship from Chicago can come to areas of Atlantic Canada, pick up goods and bring them back. We do not have the ability to do that with the United States because of that carve out.

When it comes to the EFTA deal, the serious concern we have is the Norwegian component. Norway is very, very anxious to get its hands on our industry, not just for the ships themselves, but also for future oil and gas exploration that may happen off the coast of British Columbia, that may happen in our Arctic and that will continue to happen on the east coast. That is really what Norway is going for.

We have heard time and time again from the Liberals and the Conservatives that we are going to build ships here in Canada. I remember my colleague from Halifax West who said in 2005 not to worry, that we are going to build those Coast Guard vessels right here in Canada. It is 2009 and we still have not built them.

I love the way the Conservatives framed the budget. First of all, I want to give them credit. They actually mentioned shipbuilding in the budget, but they know and I know that we need an investment of $22 billion to reinvest in our industry for the military, the Coast Guard, the laker and the ferry fleets. What did the Conservatives present? There is $175 million for a bunch of smaller vessels. We call it the canoe budget, not that there is anything wrong with canoes, but the reality is a canoe will not do very much at the 200 mile limit off the east coast when we encounter people who are spilling oil into our waters, or raping and pillaging our fish stocks, or bringing in illegal immigrants, or drug interdictions. They are not going to do much to stop them.

We also had a contract for our joint supplies vessels and that was cancelled by the government because it lowballed the bid when it out to tender. The mayor of Marystown, Newfoundland, Sam Synard, has asked repeatedly that this contract get back on the table so those people can get back to work. The Washington yards, the Marystown yards, the Halifax yards, the Port Weller yards, and the Davie yards in Quebec all deserve to have these contracts now. We have $22 billion worth of work to do just on the domestic side and it could be done over a 20 year period.

In 2001 the then industry minister, Mr. Brian Tobin, said very clearly that he wanted to have a report on the status of the shipbuilding industry and where to go forward. Four members of that committee came up with five major recommendations to assist the industry. Not one of those recommendations has moved forward yet.

One of the biggest ones we have asked for repeatedly from the Liberals and the Conservatives and have been denied each time, although we did get bits of it, is that structured facility financing be incorporated over a five year period and on top of that, accelerated capital allowances for five years. That would assist this industry and would go a long way in employing thousands of people. We would buy Canadian materials, such as steel, and get the ships built that Canada so desperately needs. What did we get? We got structured facility financing for a couple of years and accelerated capital allowances for a couple of years, but never the full recommendation that we asked for. The reason the finance department gives is it did not want to give this industry a double benefit.

We have said repeatedly that all we wish the government would do is pay half as much attention to shipbuilding as it does to the aerospace industry. If it did that, our industry would be on solid footing right now, and quite possibly, the EFTA deal would not have such a devastating effect upon our industry. But it will, because the government has refused to initiate the recommendations of that 2001 report. It has refused repeatedly my requests, questions, statements, news conferences, representations and recommendations and those from people throughout the industry. We have to ask ourselves why.

In 2003 I was sitting in this House when the then finance minister of Canada, John Manley, said, “Shipbuilding is a sunset industry”. When he said that, it all came to light. It was very devastating when he said that. We realize there are many in the bureaucracy who would love to see the end of the shipbuilding industry and who would trade it off for something else, for example, pharmaceuticals, farm products or whatever it is. We think that is absolutely wrong. We saw what happened in Newfoundland and Labrador when fish was traded off for other industries in these trade deals. It was devastating to that province.

What we are asking for is what the people who work in these industries are asking for. They want to know that when it comes to Canadian procurement, they will get the jobs. They also want to know that they can compete worldwide. It is very difficult to compete against a country like Norway which has subsidized its industry for over 30 years while we are not doing anything to help ours.

We did do one thing. During the frigate program we gave the Irving company an awful lot of money to upgrade the Saint John yard. The mistake was that the frigates were built more or less at once and then the yard was shut down, and the Irvings were given another $55 million of taxpayers' money to shut it down. It was one of the most advanced shipyards in North America, and it was shut down. After the comment by John Manley, people started to believe that the industry was in a sunset phase and there was no sense in building ships.

How many western nations in the world actually have their military vessels built somewhere else? The JSS would be a great program for Canada. In 2002 I was part of a defence committee report that recommended sealift capability be initiated very quickly in this country. It is seven years later and we are still waiting.

During the 2006 campaign, the future defence minister told folks not to worry. I remember the press conference very well. There was a big map of the Arctic. He said that if elected in 2006, the Conservatives would build three armed icebreakers. Well, it is 2009. I wonder where those armed icebreakers are. That is another broken promise.

In the last election campaign we heard the Conservatives say that they would build a $780 million icebreaker called the Diefenbaker. When is it going to come? It is not in the estimates and it is not in the budget. We are $34 billion in the hole now, and the projection is to go to $84 billion in the hole. When is this project going to happen? We simply do not know.

With respect to coast guard replacement vessels, we get the smaller version, a fraction of what is required. It is still not enough. When is the JSS going to come? Our men and women who sail the seas, who serve our country, deserve better protection than that. They deserve to have the equipment they need.

We do not need to sacrifice our industries at the altar of the free trade deal when it comes to EFTA. EFTA has some good points; we are not arguing that. However, we want to make sure that shipbuilding is exempted from this deal, that it is carved out. Then the government can trade all it wants.

If the Bloc Québécois or the Liberals allow this deal to carry forward as it is, it is going to have a devastating effect on the shipbuilding industry across the country. I would ask them to go to the Davie yard and tell the shipyard workers that they are prepared to give up shipbuilding for aluminum, tin, pharmaceuticals or other industries.

We are asking the Bloc Québécois to join us in stopping this deal from going forward, to make sure our shipbuilding industry is protected. It does not necessarily mean putting x number of dollars in a budget on domestic procurement for small vessels. That does not protect the industry. Our big shipyards need to have long-term projects. Just imagine if we had already initiated the recommendations from the 2000 report, “Breaking Through”. A lot of people would not have had to leave Newfoundland and Labrador or Halifax to find work elsewhere. Those people could be back working in the yards making good money and looking after their families.

Why would we not do this?

I know when my good friend and colleague, the member for Welland, speaks on it, he will have personal stories of what happened in the Welland yards.

There we are with the great lakes and the beautiful laker fleets that need to be replaced. What a perfect place to get them done.

The reality is that we do not know yet what we are paying them now. The people have to move away. The reality is that we have $22 billion worth of work to do on the domestic side, which would aid these companies in competing internationally for foreign work and for other work in the oil and gas sector and so on. The longer we delay it, the longer these yards are going to suffer. How many of these yards will be left in a couple of years if we do not do it? If we do not have the yards and we do not have the tradespeople and we do not have the industry, then who is going to build our coast guard and military vessels of tomorrow? Who is going to build the ferries and the laker fleets of tomorrow?

Oh, I know. I have a suggestion.

Recently the British Columbia Ferry Services and the B.C. government had three ferries built in Germany for over $550 million. That was $550 million of British Columbia money, and it did not create one job in British Columbia.

What are they asking for now? They told us it is cheaper to have these ferries built in Germany. If that is the case, how do they explain that if they had been built in Canada, B.C. and the federal government would have got 40¢ back on the dollar through GST and other income taxes? That money was not even accounted for.

Then what did British Columbia Ferry Services do? It asked its friend David Emerson, who used to be head of the B. C. ferry services, for a waiver reduction on the import fees of over $20 million. If it was cheaper to build them in Germany, why would it ask for that waiver? We hope this government does not grant that waiver. It should get them to pay it. That money should go directly into British Columbia to aid and assist in the shipbuilding industry. That is where it should be going.

The next time any province or Canada wants to build vessels, it should look inside its own yards and create jobs right here in Canada. What is wrong with using Canadian taxpayers' dollars, Canadian ingenuity, Canadian industry and Canadian shipyards to build Canadian vessels? Who can be opposed to that?

The Conservatives can, and the previous Liberals could, because this did not start with the Conservatives. It started long ago with the Liberals. Through various elections, it has withered away, in a sense. I give my colleague from Burnaby—New Westminster a lot of credit. He has done everything in his power to delay this thing and to get the message out about what the Conservatives are about to do to our industry.

A declining scale on tariffs does not cut it. Norway can easily eat that up and end up going after our industries. This is not the deal that would protect the industry.

If I were talking about pharmaceuticals or blueberries or shrimp, I would say it was a great deal and we should go for it, but we are talking about an industry worth $22 billion just for domestic procurement. It does not include all the other work they could possibly bid and tender for in years to come, including the oil and gas sector, foreign vessels, and so on.

There are five major yards and a bunch of smaller ones left in this country. There is absolutely no reason that those yards could not be singing and humming and hiring thousands of workers.

We talk about an economic stimulus package. We were told in December by the Minister of Defence, the minister responsible for Nova Scotia, that shipbuilding would be a part of the stimulus package in this budget. That is not so. That did not happen.

What we are asking of not only him but of that entire caucus over there is to look in themselves, go down to the shipyards and tell those shipyard workers that they will do everything they can to provide protection for their jobs, protection that would extend into any foreign deals we make with other countries. If the United States can invoke the Jones act and carve out shipbuilding in deals with us, then we should be able to do the same, not only with the United States but also with other countries, including EFTA.

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February 2nd, 2009 / 4 p.m.
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NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

Mr. Speaker, my colleague is well renowned for his work on the shipbuilding sector.

One of the interesting comments in his speech referred to defence procurement policy, especially as it relates the the United States. Under our current agreement it is different from the discussion we are having about buying American right now.

To be clear, the United States is pursuing a potential buy-American clause in its proposed fiscal update and stimulus package. Americans already have in existing legislation a bill that protects defence procurement contracts and has them go to their industries. This is a normal part of the NAFTA relationship that we have. It is something they have seen revitalize their economy. It is also to provide national strategic supports for their military. This is important because if the manufacturing base is hollowed out, they won't even be able to defend their own country.

In contrast, in Canada the Conservative government, supported by the Liberals, recently awarded a quarter billion dollar project for trucks to be built in Texas. The sad thing is that a plant we saved a few years ago in Chatham, Ontario, can actually build those same trucks with minor modifications. That plant is being closed and moved to Mexico and hundreds of workers are being fired, yet a quarter billion dollar contract is being awarded to Texas. This makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

This is within the current structure of our negotiations with the United States. It is something that we simply understand we would do. We do not contest when they have similar procedures in the United States. I would like to ask my friend to comment on that.

The budget promises some coastal vessels. My friend has referred to them as “canoes”. At the same time, we want to make sure they will be built here in Canada.

How can we believe that what is going to take place will actually stimulate our economy when we know that under these truck provisions, the Navistar truck plant is closing down despite saving all those jobs and despite the fact that it can produce the same vehicle that is going to be produced in Texas? I wonder if my colleague could respond to that.

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February 2nd, 2009 / 4:05 p.m.
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NDP

Peter Stoffer NDP Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS

Mr. Speaker, I tend to believe that only the Conservatives would allow a quarter billion dollars of Canadian taxpayers' money to fly south to Texas and take all our jobs with it. It is unbelievable.

I remember the old glossy photos, the blue ones with a big C in them that looked like a Kremlin symbol with a star in it. I remember a big Conservative sign that said, “Stand Up for Canada”. All I have ever seen Conservative members do is sit down for Canada. All those jobs in Chatham, Ontario, are one shining example.

Those Canadian workers were proudly building military vehicles for our men and women who serve us not only domestically but overseas as well. Let members imagine what a novel idea it would be to use Canadian tax dollars to employ Canadian workers to build Canadian vehicles for the Canadian military. Colour me wrong, but if that is such a far-off, left of centre, leftist idea or socialist dogma, then call me a socialist. I happen to think it is a pretty good idea.

I would love to see one Conservative member go to Chatham, Ontario, and tell those workers and their families why they cannot do that work. We in the NDP can prove to them that with the right policies, those trucks could have been built to high quality in Canada, and probably at a better price than we would get in Texas.

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February 2nd, 2009 / 4:05 p.m.
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Bloc

Serge Cardin Bloc Sherbrooke, QC

Mr. Speaker, I am certain that during the Speech from the Throne and the fall budget, the NDP member lost any inkling of confidence in the Conservative government, as did we. We can hear it in his remarks; it is obvious.

As for government procurement, my colleague also knows that the government, within this free trade agreement, remains perfectly free to purchase in Canada, subject to the WTO agreement on government procurement, of course.

Furthermore, we see on page 172 of the 2009 budget, Canada's economic action plan, that, “The Government is investing $175 million on a cash basis for the procurement of new Coast Guard vessels and to undertake vessel life extensions and refits for aging vessels.” In this case, the government felt it had to specify “on a cash basis” because it wants to tell people that it will invest this year. “While contracts have not yet been awarded, work will be conducted in Canada.”

And just because there is a small component on page 172 that could help Canada's shipbuilding industry does not mean that we should vote for the budget. Overall, we know what it is and since the trust has been broken, we do not believe all of the Conservative Party promises.

Does the member not believe that we will be able to influence the government so that it will give the shipbuilding industry a chance to develop over the 15 year period when the vessel tariffs are in the process of completely disappearing?

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February 2nd, 2009 / 4:10 p.m.
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NDP

Peter Stoffer NDP Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS

He is right, Mr. Speaker. Time and time again we have seen grandiose promises from the Conservatives broken.

When we are asking for $22 billion over 20 years and we get $175 million, do we say thanks? Sure. We will thank the government for the mention in the budget and for that small amount.

The major yards will not be doing that small work. The reality is that a lot of this work will go to the smaller yards, which is good for them. We are glad to see that will happen.

However, there is absolutely no guarantee they will follow through. A company in Pictou, Nova Scotia, the defence minister's own riding, made knives for years for the military. It is gone. Its workers are laid off. Those knives are now being made in China.

If the defence minister cannot protect an industry in his own riding, how can I possibly hope that the Conservatives, in any way, shape or form, will protect anything when it comes to the shipbuilding industry?

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February 2nd, 2009 / 4:10 p.m.
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Edmonton Centre Alberta

Conservative

Laurie Hawn ConservativeParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of National Defence

Mr. Speaker, the only thing I can guarantee to the House is that the member and his party will vote against every vote that comes to support the military or to support veterans.

We have been talking about support to shipbuilding. The budget and the economic action plan show that we are building 98 coast guard ships, we are refurbishing 40 more coast guard ships, and we have the Canada First defence strategy, which will spend billions of dollars on ships over a 20-year period. That work will be done in Canada. If that is not supporting a shipbuilding industry, then I do not know what is.

With respect to his comments on the truck bid, nobody else bid. It is very hard to give jobs to people who do not ask for the jobs and do not bid for the jobs.

I wish the hon. member would simply stick to the facts and quit pretending he actually supports the military, whereas in fact he votes against every single contract and every single budget that supports the military. He and his party vote against them. He should cut the hypocrisy and stick with the facts.

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February 2nd, 2009 / 4:10 p.m.
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NDP

Peter Stoffer NDP Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS

Mr. Speaker, let us go through it.

VIP promised every widow of World War II and Korea would get a benefit immediately. A budget came out two and a half years later. It was less than 10%.

We were told that every person in Gagetown affected by the spraying of Agent Orange from 1958 to 1984 would be covered. That was nonsense. It was for 1966 and 1967 only.

As for the SISIP clawback, the former defence minister said the government would fix it. It still has not been done.

We could go on to the other issues of the clawback of their pensions.

Recently, on September 9, 2008, the Prime Minister told Polish veterans at a hall that if the government were elected, it would institute the allied veterans war allowance for all those allied veterans. It is not in the estimates and it is not in the budget, so if anyone is talking about hypocrisy toward our veterans, it is that member and that government over there.

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February 2nd, 2009 / 4:10 p.m.
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NDP

Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC

Mr. Speaker, after that despicable display by the Conservatives, we should get back to the subject, which is the European Free Trade Association agreement.

We know the Conservatives will not even stand in the House to defend this agreement anymore. They are simply absolving themselves from any responsibility for the bill.

I would like to thank the member for Sackville—Eastern Shore for his work in protecting the shipbuilding industry and standing up for veterans, and I would like to ask him a question. Why are the Conservatives so embarrassed by the bill?

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February 2nd, 2009 / 4:10 p.m.
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NDP

Peter Stoffer NDP Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS

Mr. Speaker, I can only deduce that many of the members of the Conservative Party do not have shipyards in their ridings. If they did, they would have a better understanding of the issue.

I remember when they were in opposition. I remember the Reform Party in 1997. I remember that the Alliance and the Conservative Party, before they were in government, used to stand up for shipbuilding in this country. Now it seems they are sitting down.

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February 2nd, 2009 / 4:10 p.m.
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Bloc

Claude Guimond Bloc Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to take part in this debate on Bill C-2, which should lead to the implementation of the Free Trade Agreement between Canada and the European Free Trade Association. The Standing Committee on International Trade has already studied it and I am glad to be able to add my thoughts to the current debate.

The Bloc Québécois has already indicated that it is generally in favour of this agreement. We think that it is a good agreement, especially for the Quebec economy. There are attractive opportunities for us in the countries that are signing it. Whether in pharmaceuticals, nickel mining or aluminum exports, Quebec is very well positioned and will surely benefit from its advantages. This does not mean, though, that the agreement is perfect. We have serious concerns, especially in regard to the inclusion of shipbuilding. The Bloc expressed these concerns in the supplementary opinion it attached to the committee report, and I would like to take this opportunity to draw this issue again to the attention of the members.

The future of our shipyards is very important to Quebec and especially eastern Quebec. This region lies along the shores of the St. Lawrence River, the largest navigable waterway in the world, and shipbuilding is an important part of its economy. This free trade agreement will therefore have a direct impact on the people of my region in a few years. That impact will be positive or negative depending on the choice that the government makes today.

Shipbuilding has suffered for many years from a flagrant lack of government support. Our shipyards have fallen well behind the Norwegian ones, and Norway is one of the signatories of this agreement. While Norway has been investing massively for years in modernizing its shipyards, it is sad to say that the federal government has long been ignoring our shipbuilders. There is no real marine sector policy in Canada today, and the results over the next few years could be very bad.

Under the existing agreement, the most sensitive shipbuilding products will enjoy a gradual reduction in tariffs for a period of up to 15 years in some cases. After that adjustment period, no tariff protection will be allowed, and vessels from Norway, for example, will enter the Canadian and Quebec market to compete on par with our ships. This would not be a problem, except that we lag far behind in this area. If our borders were to open wide tomorrow morning to the competition, our shipyards would disappear. And that would be very unfortunate, since our shipyards are essential for economic, strategic and environmental reasons. Now the question remains: how will our marine industry look 15 years from now?

If the past is any indication, we have every reason to be extremely pessimistic about the survival of this industry, given the increased foreign competition. Clearly, if the federal government continues to ignore the needs of our shipyards and refuses to take action to support them, we will definitely see them gradually deteriorate over the next 15 years. That is why the Bloc Québécois presented an important recommendation to the Standing Committee on International Trade in advance of this agreement taking effect. The recommendation reads, “The Canadian government must without delay implement an aggressive maritime policy to support the industry, while ensuring that any such strategy is in conformity with Canada's commitments at the WTO”.

That was the only recommendation made in the report. The Conservatives never see any problems with their policies and the Liberals, as usual, failed to propose any recommendations. The NDP, in its predictable opposition to free trade, opposed the agreement altogether.

The Bloc Québécois recommendation, which finally received the committee's support and was included in its report, meets the expectations of many shipbuilders in Canada and Quebec. Even though they have no hope of seeing their sector excluded from the agreement, they do expect the government to act quickly and forcefully. We read in the report that, according to representatives of shipbuilders and marine workers:

...without combined access to the SFF and ACCA, the impact of the agreement would be devastating to the industry and would lead to job losses. In their view, this additional government support was critical if the Canadian industry was to survive increased competition from Norwegian producers.

Some will say that Norway has announced that it has stopped subsidizing its shipbuilders and that that will enable Canada to compete on a level playing field with that country. But what are we doing to make up for all the years when there were no subsidies here, while Norway was achieving the high level of competitiveness it enjoys today, thanks to generous government support? Quite simply, there needs to be a dramatic shift in the federal approach to the marine industry, which means abandoning the laissez-faire policy the Liberals and Conservatives have followed to date.

I am happy that we are holding this debate on the trade agreement with the European Free Trade Association, because it reveals how fragile our marine industry is in the face of foreign competition and forces us to take a stand on these issues quickly. It is not the agreement that is bad, but our policy. That is why a change of direction is imperative. In 5 or 10 years, it will be too late. We must act now. With a few targeted measures, our shipyards can become modern, productive, financially healthy and extremely competitive. The biggest problem to date has been the lack of political will to change things, and it is high time that changed too.

Of all the aspects of this free trade agreement, this one concerned me the most. The other aspects of the agreement, including agriculture, seem to be well handled and in line with Quebec's interests. I would just like to add, as some of my colleagues have already pointed out, that this free trade agreement may open the door to a future agreement with the European Union. We must seize the opportunity when it arises and, more importantly, be ready to compete.

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February 2nd, 2009 / 4:20 p.m.
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Bloc

Serge Cardin Bloc Sherbrooke, QC

Mr. Speaker, because the tariff will be reduced to zero over 15 years, with the phase-out to begin after a three-year waiting period, the recommendation by the Standing Committee on International Trade suggested that the government adopt a vigorous policy to promote the development of the shipbuilding industry. In fact, the government should adopt that kind of policy, to be implemented as quickly as possible.

It must be recalled that for the 10 years that negotiations went on, particularly in 2000, the Shipbuilding Association of Canada did not agree with the government’s policy. The tariff reduction period was much shorter still. Ultimately, the Association agreed to the reduction in the tariff, but over a 15-year period, and after a three-year waiting period. When representatives of shipyards appeared at the committee, they asked that priority be given to two measures: allowing purchasers of Canadian ships to take advantage of accelerated depreciation and adopting a structured financing facility.

My colleague can tell you this, because I will give him an opportunity to reiterate it: the Bloc Québécois is making many more recommendations than this; there are numerous others. These are things that should be adopted as quickly as possible to assist the shipbuilding industry. I would therefore ask that my colleague elaborate a little on all of the proposals made to the Conservative government by the Bloc Québécois.

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February 2nd, 2009 / 4:25 p.m.
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Bloc

Claude Guimond Bloc Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for giving me the opportunity to explain the recommendations made by the Bloc Québécois in the report. Because of the high cost of these products, the industry is calling for special financing arrangements for the shipbuilding industry so that it can purchase equipment of that value. Precisely because of the value of these products, which often comprise the bulk of the purchaser’s assets, the industry needs special tax rules in order to be competitive. Again, because of these major investments, the industry needs to share the risk it assumes at the research and development stage, in particular to facilitate access to credit.

Another very important measure involves offering financing to cover a large portion of the value of the contract, 87.5%. That is what we are calling for. To conclude, all these measures should be available both to Canadian purchasers and to foreign purchasers.

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February 2nd, 2009 / 4:25 p.m.
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NDP

Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC

Mr. Speaker, I listened very carefully to the speech by the member for Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques. If I understood correctly, he is against the agreement and deplores the repercussions it will have on the shipbuilding industry in Quebec and elsewhere in Canada.

We are well aware that with the loss, at least temporarily, of 1,100 jobs at the Davie shipyards, the shipbuilding industry is presently in crisis.

My question is very simple. The Bloc Québécois has already made the mistake of supporting the softwood lumber agreement, which led to the loss of thousands of jobs. We cannot blame Guy Chevrette for recommending the agreement. It was a bad agreement for Quebec and it led to the loss of thousands of jobs. At present, we know that hundreds of jobs will be lost, especially in Quebec, because of this bill and that it will be disastrous for shipbuilding throughout Canada.

Is the member prepared to vote against this bill?

We cannot act like the Liberal Party that always speaks against an issue but then always votes with the Conservative government. It is time for the Bloc Québécois to stand up, to follow the lead of the NDP and to vote against this bill. Is it prepared to do so?

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February 2nd, 2009 / 4:25 p.m.
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Bloc

Claude Guimond Bloc Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC

Mr. Speaker, I would have been very surprised had my NDP colleague not mentioned the softwood lumber crisis. He had to do it, he just could not help himself.

The Bloc Québécois believes that this agreement with the European Free Trade Association is a good agreement. However, in order to accept it, Canada needs to have a true policy for the development of its shipyards. The Bloc position on this agreement is very clear.

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February 2nd, 2009 / 4:25 p.m.
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Bloc

Serge Cardin Bloc Sherbrooke, QC

Mr. Speaker, to allow my colleague from the Bloc Québécois an opportunity to continue to present his views on the shipbuilding industry, in reply to the question from the NDP, which was a little biased, it must be noted that is indeed sad, it is heart-breaking, that there have been job losses in Quebec in the shipbuilding industry. But we must also set the record straight: the accord has not been adopted yet.

So this is not a trade issue, it is an industry issue. What is happening now relates to the industry. The accord is not what is having an effect on the job losses in Quebec, which I hope are temporary. Rather, it is a matter of industrial policy, it is a matter of the shipbuilding industry, which neither the Liberal government of the day nor the Conservative government of today wants to address.

So it is relatively simple. We need appropriate measures to promote the development and modernization of the industry, and I believe firmly in the abilities of the workers in the shipbuilding industries, in their skills and potential, but to do that, the Conservative government has to provide the tools. We know this is a laissez-faire government, but in times of economic crisis such as we are experiencing today it is even more important that it adopt policies. And we have policies to offer. I am sure my colleague could list a few more for you.

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February 2nd, 2009 / 4:30 p.m.
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Bloc

Claude Guimond Bloc Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC

Mr. Speaker, as one of the measures that should accompany this policy, we have talked about loans and loan guarantees for shipyards that have to invest so they can provide a financial guarantee in order to bid on new contracts. That takes capital, and the government should provide support so they can do that.

The tax rules for financial lease agreements absolutely have to be improved, and these people have to be given additional tools so they can sign contracts. We are talking about refundable tax credits for shipbuilders. Again, this is a measure to make their lives easier.

We believe that all these measures should be included in a genuine policy for our shipyards, in both Quebec and Canada. This would enable them to deal with free trade, particularly under the agreements with Norway that are part of the agreement with the European Free Trade Association.

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February 2nd, 2009 / 4:30 p.m.
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Conservative

The Acting Speaker Conservative Barry Devolin

The hon. member for Burnaby—New Westminster has the floor for a very short question.

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February 2nd, 2009 / 4:30 p.m.
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NDP

Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC

Mr. Speaker, in a sense, this is a supplementary.

I asked a direct question but did not get a direct answer. We know that the bill will have a negative effect in Quebec. Are the hon. member and his caucus prepared to follow the NDP's lead and vote against this bill, yes or no?

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February 2nd, 2009 / 4:30 p.m.
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Conservative

The Acting Speaker Conservative Barry Devolin

The hon. member for Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques has the floor for a short answer.

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February 2nd, 2009 / 4:30 p.m.
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Bloc

Claude Guimond Bloc Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC

Mr. Speaker, as I said earlier, the Bloc Québécois is in favour of the free trade agreement with the European Free Trade Association. What we are saying is that this agreement has to be accompanied by a policy providing real support to the shipbuilding industry.

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February 2nd, 2009 / 4:30 p.m.
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NDP

John Rafferty NDP Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON

Mr. Speaker, I would like to give a preamble. My comments about the bill are not about protectionism. My comments about the bill are about the future of our children and our jobs in this country. I cannot hope to reach the eloquent level of the member for Sackville—Eastern Shore but I will certainly try.

The House might be wondering why someone from northern Ontario is standing up to talk about the shipbuilding component of the bill. Aside from being a forestry centre for Canada, Thunder Bay is also one of the shipbuilding and ship repairing centres in Canada.

Members in the House may not know that but I would just like to point that out because we are a shipbuilding city. We have skilled workers, we have a seagoing harbour, and we have high tech companies, like Pascal Engineering, that build and repair ships.

Unfortunately, when it comes to shipbuilding in this country as we have seen over the years, awarding contracts for shipbuilding is not done on any logical basis. It is really done on a political basis. What I am hoping is, when I finish speaking today, that someone from the government side will stand up and tell me that shipbuilding centres in Canada like Thunder Bay will not be forgotten if any money every does come forward to build ships. They can build them small, they can build them large and we would certainly like to be part of that. I would like someone on the government side to get up and assure the people in Thunder Bay and northwestern Ontario that this is going to happen.

The people in Thunder Bay in the shipbuilding sector do not believe that shipbuilding is a sunset industry. The government and indeed the Government of Ontario say that they believe that shipbuilding just like forestry is a sunset industry.

My major concern with the bill are the provisions regarding shipbuilding. The bill reduces tariffs on ships from 25% to 0% over a period of 10 to 15 years depending on the type of products. Nothing happens in the first three years. One category of ships goes right down to zero and these are the very large ships, the very kinds of ships that can be built in Thunder Bay.

The government has dropped the ball on other trade agreements. I do not want to go into great detail about that, but what we are talking about is a situation that is very real with real jobs disappearing.

We understand the ideology of the government on free trade agreements. An economist 15 or 20 years ago in the United States wrote a book and said that they are good things. Unfortunately, the way they have been arranged is that they are mostly selling out.

In support of my argument I would like to give the House a couple of quotes. The first one is from George MacPherson who is the president of the Shipyard General Workers' Federation of British Columbia. He said:

The Canadian shipbuilding industry is already operating at about 1/3 of its capacity. Canadian demand for ships over the next 15 years is estimated to be worth $9 billion in Canadian jobs. Under the FTAs with Norway, Iceland, and now planned with Korea, and then Japan, these Canadian shipbuilding jobs are in serious jeopardy. In these terms this government plan is shear folly, and an outrage.

As well, Les Hollaway, who is the Atlantic Canada Director of CAW, stated, “Your committee should not recommend this free trade agreement without first recommending that the federal government first address the issues facing the shipbuilding industry that would allow the industry to compete in a fair and equitable manner with our trading partners”.

What is the shipbuilding issue? During the last 20 years Norway, Canada's EFTA main competitor in this sector, built a strong shipbuilding industry by initially protecting its market and by heavily subsidizing production. Now, Norway is able to compete in the zero tariff environment. During all that time Canada had kept the 25% tariff on ship imports without a shipbuilding policy of any kind and no money to support the industry. The so-called generous 10 to 15 year phase-out terms simply mean a stay of execution for Canada's shipbuilding industry.

Andrew McArthur from the Shipbuilding Association of Canada made a compelling case on behalf of Canadian shipbuilders to have that industry explicitly excluded from the Canada-EFTA agreement, as it is from NAFTA. He noted that Norway's world class shipbuilding industry is not subsidized today, but it owes its present competitiveness to the serious government support it received in the past years. Andrew McArthur said:

So our position from day one has been that shipbuilding should be carved out from the trade agreement. We butted our heads against a brick wall for quite a number of years on that and we were told there is no carve-out. If the Americans, under the Jones Act, can carve out shipbuilding from NAFTA and other free trade agreements, as I believe the Americans are doing today with Korea, or have done, why can Canada not do the same?

It is precisely this type of policy that has allowed Norway to become a world class player that it is today and this is precisely what the federal government failed to do by completely gutting Canada's shipbuilding industry.

Canada has the largest coastline in the world. It has no strategy for its shipbuilding industry. This situation is absolutely unacceptable. When the tariffs come down in 15 years Canada's industry will be unable to cope with Norwegian competition. The current state of Canada's shipbuilding industry is directly related to the absence of a vigorous industrial development policy by successive federal and Conservative governments. Canada's shipyard industry is only a shadow of its former self, roughly one-third to one-quarter of where it was 10 or 15 years ago.

Recently, the Harper government and the B.C. Campbell government again refused to stand up for our shipbuilding industry. I do not want to go into too much detail, but we all know the story of the B.C. Ferries. The first ship arrived last December. The Harper government has refused to commit to put toward--

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February 2nd, 2009 / 4:40 p.m.
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Conservative

The Acting Speaker Conservative Barry Devolin

Order. The member knows that he cannot refer to members of Parliament by their given names.

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February 2nd, 2009 / 4:40 p.m.
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NDP

John Rafferty NDP Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON

Yes, Mr. Speaker, I apologize to the House. Hon. members might want to ask a couple of questions on that.

Even those in the business community who have a vested interest in supporting the acceleration of EFTA, such as the Canadian Shipowners Association, justify their support on the basis that Canada has forever lost its ability to build ships, but we do not share that pessimism. With proper and intelligent support from the federal government, Canada's domestic shipbuilding industry could be rapidly up and running. All that is missing is the political will of the federal government.

The U.S. has always refused to repeal the Jones act and it has been mentioned a couple of times today. I would like to remind the House of what that act says. The legislation has been in place since 1920 and protects the U.S. capacity to produce commercial ships. The Jones act requires that commerce between U.S. ports on the inland and intercoastal waterways be reserved for vessels that are U.S. built, U.S. owned, registered under U.S. law and U.S. manned. The U.S. has also refused to include shipbuilding under NAFTA and has implemented in recent years a heavily subsidized naval reconstruction program.

Therefore, the shipbuilding sector must be excluded from this agreement and the federal government should immediately help put together a structured financing facility, SFF, an accelerated capital cost allowance for the industry, and an effective buy Canada policy for all government procurement.

As I said at the beginning of my remarks, I am not talking about protectionism. I am talking about fair play and I am talking about looking out for the future of our children, our families, and our capacity to produce goods which are needed in Canada and around the world. We have that capacity.

In closing, I would like to invite some questions from the government side and the opposition. I know there are probably a couple.

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February 2nd, 2009 / 4:40 p.m.
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NDP

Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC

Mr. Speaker, the Conservatives are not standing up and defending this agreement. They have completely backed off. For the first hour or so the minister and the parliamentary secretary defended it. However, since all the facts have come to light, the Conservatives, even Conservatives from areas that have an important shipbuilding industry, are completely silent on this bill. They are not defending it. I guess we could say it would be a tough act anyhow that they would be defending the indefensible. How does one stand up in the House and say that their government is moving to kill thousands of jobs in the shipbuilding industry? I guess that would be difficult to defend.

However, I think those people who are listening to Parliament today, those who are concerned about the possible impacts of the bill, must be quite disappointed to learn that Conservatives cannot defend the bill. They cannot stand up in the House and speak to the bill. They are completely silent on all the impacts and the loss of jobs that would result from it. The Liberals are their sidekicks. The new Liberal leader is like the Robin of Canadian politics, Batman and Robin, the sidekicks of the Conservatives. However, neither party is standing up to defend the bill brought forward by the government.

Given the member has outlined very clearly the impacts, the loss of jobs, the failure of the government to stand up for good Canadian jobs in the shipbuilding industry, does he think the Conservatives are ashamed of their own bill?

Canada-EFTA Free Trade Agreement Implementation ActGovernment Orders

February 2nd, 2009 / 4:45 p.m.
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NDP

John Rafferty NDP Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON

Mr. Speaker, I cannot speak for the government side and say whether they are ashamed of the bill. I suspect they probably are.

However, just as the hon. member for Sackville—Eastern Shore has said, there are some things in EFTA that are worthwhile, and we do not have any objections to that. What we are asking is that shipbuilding be excluded from the bill before it goes forward. It just a simple request. It has nothing to do with many of the other trade parts of the agreement.

I have seen the devastation in Thunder Bay over the years as shipbuilding has declined. As I said, it is very difficult to understand why, when we have a shipbuilding capacity in a city like Thunder Bay that has been hard hit in other areas, such as forestry, because of ill-advised agreements and a lack of caring by various levels of government. It is difficult for me to stay clear eyed as I speak when I know about families that have been devastated and people who have lost their jobs and probably some peripheral things, such as the loss of skilled labour. When that kind of thing happens, skilled labour leaves the area, the region and the province. We cannot afford to have any more out-migrations.

I hope the government will have a look at this, consider the shipbuilding element of this and decide that what we have talked about today is the right way to go.

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February 2nd, 2009 / 4:45 p.m.
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NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

Mr. Speaker, with regards to shipbuilding, it is not only just in terms of commercial importance and the skills, value-added work, especially because it also involves a lot of Canadian aggregate involved with the construction as well, it is also issues related to skilled trades, professions that are very important not only just in terms of the value of income they bring in but also a skills set that is necessary. One of the things that is important about the carve-out policy we are advocating for is the issues around national defence. Many countries are very clear about ensuring they have a significant portion of their manufacturing base protected so in times of conflict or war or other types of challenges they have the capacity to produce the necessary means to protect their citizens. We saw that historically through the great wars with our country as factories were converted into operation mechanisms to help win over a tyranny.

As well, it is important to recognize that even today we still have important measures that we have to contribute in the global world. Part of this is keeping the capacities available to ensure we can contribute and be there.

The government has been very much one that is turned inward. It is one that has decided not to even lobby for a seat on the National Security Council of the United Nations. It has also been very much inward looking and given that impression quite significantly in many degrees. The most recent is the U.S. buy American policy that has come up without any type of measure in terms of even understanding it was approaching.

I would like to ask my colleague about the defence issue related to that, as we sell out all our industries and do not have that capacity to respond.

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February 2nd, 2009 / 4:45 p.m.
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NDP

John Rafferty NDP Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON

Mr. Speaker, I will give the member a good example of capacity.

Last week the last fine paper mill in Ontario went into receivership. Fine paper is the paper we use every day, the paper we have on our desks and the paper we put in our computers. The last fine paper mill in Ontario is now gone. At the same time, as that one disappeared from Ontario, one opened up in New York. The irony is that the major investors in the New York operation are Canadians. Why did they not invest in our own?

The Conservative government, and in that particular case the Ontario government, is putting those of us in northern Ontario back into the dark ages, where we are hewers of wood and drawers of water. Anything that requires finishing is leaving our province and our country.

Perhaps we will still have one mill operating in Ontario that will supply pulp, but that pulp will not be processed into finished goods here. It will go to the United States to make fine papers. That is where all the high quality, highly skilled and highly paid jobs are in much more abundance.

Are we going to go back to a situation in our country where all we are is a source for primary resources and nothing else? I beg the government to truly consider what is happening.

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February 2nd, 2009 / 4:50 p.m.
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NDP

Peter Stoffer NDP Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS

Mr. Speaker, my hon. colleague is new here and he has done a great job.

Does he not believe that using Canadian taxpayer dollars, Canadian workers, Canadian materials, Canadian raw resources, Canadian industry and management to hire Canadian workers to build Canadian ships is such a bad idea?

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February 2nd, 2009 / 4:50 p.m.
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NDP

John Rafferty NDP Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON

Mr. Speaker, I have been here for a number of months now. We do not always expect answers, particularly when the question only requires a yes or no answer. In this case it is easy to do: no is the answer.

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February 2nd, 2009 / 4:50 p.m.
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NDP

Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate what the member for Thunder Bay—Rainy River has said.

Conservative MPs in the House are refusing to speak up to defend the bill. None of them have stood up since the parliamentary secretary spoke. Since the inconsistencies and the discrepancies in his statements have been brought to light by the NDP, the Conservatives have been utterly and completely silent.

Does that show respect for Canadians in the shipbuilding industry whose jobs are on the line? Does it show respect when Conservatives refuse to speak up and defend the bill that they have brought forward in the House?

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February 2nd, 2009 / 4:50 p.m.
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NDP

John Rafferty NDP Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON

Mr. Speaker, the member from Sackville—Eastern Shore spoke very eloquently. I think I meant to say yes and not no to his question. I am not sure exactly what his question was, but I think I meant to say yes. That is why, I guess, we do not get any simple answers in the House.

Part of the problem is the fact that many members in the House do not think of shipbuilding as a major industry in our country. It is a major industry and it could be a much more major industry and employ tens of thousands more Canadians.

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February 2nd, 2009 / 4:50 p.m.
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Bloc

André Bellavance Bloc Richmond—Arthabaska, QC

Mr. Speaker, it is my pleasure to participate in the debate on Bill C-2, the Canada-EFTA Free Trade Agreement Implementation Act. This agreement includes Switzerland, Norway, Liechtenstein and Iceland.

This free trade agreement will liberalize trade of non-agricultural goods. My Bloc Québécois colleagues have already had the opportunity to discuss this bill today. They have said, and I agree, that we support the bill. Quebec is likely to benefit greatly from this free trade agreement. This trade agreement could benefit certain Quebec industries. I am thinking of the pharmaceutical industry in particular. In weighing the pros and the cons, it is clear that we have to support this kind of bill. Yes, this could be a cause for some concern in the shipbuilding industry. I will discuss that later in my remarks. My colleagues have also mentioned it. We know that the NDP member who just commented on the bill expressed some serious concerns about the shipbuilding industry. However, the government should take certain measures to eliminate any cause for concern.

I think that one of the bright spots is, as I said, the pharmaceutical industry. It would be in Switzerland's interest to produce prescription drugs here so that it can penetrate the American market. We also know that Switzerland's pharmaceutical industry is very advanced, and so is Quebec's. The industry is more dynamic and better developed in Quebec than anywhere else. For example, for Swiss pharmaceutical companies wishing to gain access to the U.S. market, setting up shop in Quebec will be an economically attractive proposition. The pharmaceutical industry is more advanced in Quebec than anywhere else in Canada.

My colleague from Berthier—Maskinongé also mentioned nickel. We already export nickel to Norway, and Canada's largest mine—the third largest in the world, if I am not mistaken—is in Ungava, Quebec. This free trade agreement could make that market very relevant, very interesting and very profitable for Quebec.

The same is true of aluminum. Again, Quebec is a world leader. Naturally, Iceland comes to mind as a signatory state which also imports considerable amounts of aluminum. It would definitely be in the interest of Quebec smelters that such an agreement be entered into.

I would like to touch briefly on agriculture. While Bill C-2 does not deal with agriculture, there are bilateral agreements concerning the agricultural community attached to it, which will therefore be implemented. In reality, these bilateral agreements will have little effect on agriculture in Quebec. It was nonetheless important to make sure that the agreement would not create distortions in Quebec's agricultural economy.

That having been said, we will keep a close eye on the agricultural agreement with Switzerland. Indeed, a bilateral agreement with Switzerland which would be implemented through this bill provides for the elimination of the 7% tariff on dairy products imported from Switzerland.

This makes it all the more important to protect the supply management system at the WTO. A quota increase in a context where the in-quota tariff was abolished would expose our dairy producers to increased competition from producers in countries which, unlike Canada, subsidize their industry, their milk production. The Bloc Québécois motion asking that the government oppose any outside quota tariff cut or tariff quota increase was passed unanimously, as we know, by the House of Commons.

There is cause for concern at present because, even though the Doha round was interrupted, we know that the states involved have yet to come to an agreement.

What we saw last July was cause for concern, to say the least. The document presented to the country in fact talked about lowering tariffs and increasing the number of products entering Canada. That threatened producers who are under supply management in Quebec and Canada: milk, poultry and dairy producers. That is why we passed the unanimous motion in the House of Commons in 2005: to preserve the supply management system in its entirety.

Last July, we saw in that document that a shift was starting to happen. As well, the Conservative ministers, one by one, gave us to believe that Canada was going to sign an agreement with the WTO in any event—we know that. The former ministers of agriculture and international trade both stated that Canada would not be the only country out of 148 not to sign an agreement. This was a serious concern for people under supply management in Quebec and Canada.

The present Minister of International Trade is in Davos at the moment, if I am not mistaken, or he has been to Davos.

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February 2nd, 2009 / 4:55 p.m.
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Conservative

Lawrence Cannon Conservative Pontiac, QC

He is here today.

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February 2nd, 2009 / 4:55 p.m.
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Bloc

André Bellavance Bloc Richmond—Arthabaska, QC

I thank the minister for telling me where the minister is. I know we are not permitted to say he is not in the House. One thing for sure: he went to Davos and said he wanted to meet with the director general of the WTO himself to revive the Doha round. Reviving it for certain trade agreements is one thing, but putting that instrument back on the table, when it has been discussed and it would jeopardize the supply management system, is cause for concern. The Bloc Québécois will be even more vigilant in this regard.

With regard to the present agreement, we will look closely at what happens. Elimination of the 7% tariff, as provided in this agreement, makes it even more necessary that the government take a firm position at the WTO. Supply management is simply not negotiable. We have to say that and keep saying it. We believe that weakening supply management would justify renegotiating the agricultural agreement with Switzerland.

It should be noted that the part dealing with modified milk proteins, which were debated in the House of Commons not long ago, has also been properly examined. Switzerland is a major producer of modified milk proteins. At present, Swiss products are processed to the point that the tribunals have held that they are not agricultural products. They are therefore not covered by the agricultural accords referred to in Bill C-2. In any event, a schedule to the agreement excludes them completely. So milk proteins are excluded from the accord and tariff rate quotas and over-quota tariffs remain unchanged. In other words, products under supply management are still protected. That is what we currently see in practice and it is what we see in the bill. As I said, we will nonetheless be vigilant when it comes to agriculture, because that is our duty.

There is an interesting aspect to this agreement: it does not make the same mistakes that other Canadian agreements did. For example, NAFTA and the agreements with Costa Rica and Chile—two bilateral agreements—all have a bad chapter on investments, chapter 11, which gives corporations the right to bring proceedings directly against a government if it adopts measures that reduce their profits. The agreement before us, which we have been discussing for several hours, contains no such provisions.

I would like to point out that I worked with a member who was responsible for international trade. I was the deputy globalization critic. Some examples of chapter 11 action were absolutely ridiculous, and they must not be repeated. For example, in Mexico, an American company decided to take a municipality to court because it had adopted a bylaw prohibiting the development of a disposal site. Under chapter 11 of NAFTA, the company argued before the NAFTA tribunal that it would lose profits if not allowed to set up its disposal site at that location.

The municipality was taken to court under chapter 11 of NAFTA. I doubt that that is what the negotiators had in mind during NAFTA talks, but the pernicious effect of that part of chapter 11 led to that kind of completely unacceptable situation.

Fortunately, there is no chapter 11 in Bill C-2. The agreement with the European Free Trade Association covers only goods, not services. Therefore, we will not be forced to open public services to competition, whether provided by the government or not, because they are not included. Also, financial and banking services will not be exposed to competition from Switzerland, which has a very well-known banking system, or Liechtenstein, which is a true haven for the financial world when it comes to taxation and anonymity. None of that is included in this bill.

As my colleague from Sherbrooke just explained during questions and comments, the same is true of government procurement. The government is perfectly free to prefer Canadian suppliers, except as provided in the WTO agreement on government procurement. It would obviously be pretty ridiculous for the government to give itself a certain amount of latitude and then decide not to use it. We therefore want the federal government, which is the largest purchaser of Canadian goods and services, to prefer Canadian suppliers and show some concern for the spinoff effects of its procurement.

There was some discussion of this today in question period. We have to comply with the rules of the World Trade Organization, but there is absolutely nothing to prevent us from favouring local suppliers. The Americans are a problem for us now with their steel, but that is because they are not complying with some of the WTO rules. In other cases, though, when we have an opportunity to prefer our own employers and companies, we should do it and we should not hesitate.

One of the government’s first announcements after the election was the purchase of 1,300 trucks for the Canadian Forces, and the contract was quickly awarded to an American company. In my view, the Quebec company Paccar du Canada Ltée could very easily have filled this kind of order. Under the national security rules, the government could have ensured that such a contract was awarded within Canada. That would not break the WTO rules. We have to be very vigilant about other countries adopting extremely protectionist measures, but at the same time we are perfectly entitled to take steps to favour local suppliers, especially in these times of economic crisis. I cannot see why we would fail to take advantage of this right, especially when we are not contravening the WTO rules.

I spoke a little earlier about our shipyards. We are very concerned about some aspects of them, but we can still agree on a government policy if only the Conservatives would open their eyes and make an effort to ensure that the shipbuilding industry is not penalized too heavily by this bill. We are still concerned, however, about the future of our shipyards.

At present, imported vessels are subject to a 25% tariff. This is a form of protection, of course. However, under the agreement, these tariffs will gradually decrease over three years and will be completely eliminated in 15 years. Nevertheless, the government still has the flexibility to avoid the rocks and reefs that this kind of agreement could present and keep our shipbuilding industry afloat.

Our shipyards are far less modern and in much worse condition than Norwegian shipyards, for example. Norway has made massive investments in modernizing its shipyards, whereas the federal government has completely abandoned ours. If our borders were opened wide tomorrow morning, our shipyards could be wiped off the map. Yet for economic, strategic and environmental reasons, we cannot let our shipyards disappear.

Imagine the risks to Quebec, for instance, if no shipyard could repair vessels that ran aground or broke down in the St. Lawrence, which, I would remind the House, is the world's foremost waterway.

For years the Bloc has been calling for a real marine policy, and for years the government, whether Liberal or Conservative, has been dragging its feet. Now that the agreement has been signed, time is of the essence. We cannot waste any more time, since, as we have already heard, in three years the tariffs will begin diminishing and in 15 years the existing tariffs will be completely eliminated. The Bloc Québécois made a specific recommendation in committee on the matter. The recommendation reads:

The Canadian government must without delay implement an aggressive maritime policy to support the industry, while ensuring that any such strategy is in conformity with Canada's commitments at the WTO.

That was the only recommendation made in the report on that bill, which at the time was numbered C-55, and is now known as Bill C-2.

The Conservative policy of leaving companies to fend for themselves could be disastrous for shipyards, and we expect the government to give up its bad policy. We call on it to table a real policy, by the end of the year, to support and develop the shipbuilding industry. Given the urgency, we will not be content with fine talk, something the government specializes in. We need a real policy that covers all aspects of the industry.

Those are our concerns. There will always be some. As I said, the pros and the cons of any agreement must be weighed. Of course, the four countries we are talking about are not the biggest European economies. However, what is interesting about this free trade agreement is that it could be a foot in the door for an agreement with the European Union. That is the real issue. The Quebec government is currently lobbying and having discussions about a free-trade agreement with the European Union. A free trade agreement with Switzerland, Norway, Iceland and Liechtenstein is all well and good, but we have to be aware that it is very limited. Together, these four countries represent 12 million people and about 1% of Canada's exports. So, we are not doing the majority of our business with these countries. The real issue is the European Union, with its 495 million inhabitants—that is a much different story—who generate 31% of the world's GDP. The European Union is the strongest economic power in the world.

Since we are very dependent on the United States in matters of trade, this openness to Europe might be a very important alternative for the economy of Quebec and Canada. Canada is altogether too dependent on the United States. We send over 85% of our exports there. The slowdown in the American economy together with the explosive rise of Canadian petrodollars in contrast to the greenback, brings home the fact that our dependency weakens our economy. Quebec has lost over 150,000 manufacturing jobs in five years, including over 80,000 since the arrival of the Conservatives and their laissez-faire doctrine. It is wake-up time. An agreement with the European Union could reduce this trade dependency on the United States.

This vital diversification should not be undertaken first with China or India—countries from which we import eight times and six times respectively what we export to them. The first priority should be the European Union. This is the only way we will be able to diversify our markets and lessen our dependence on the United States. In addition, the fact that Canada has no free trade agreement with the European Union significantly reduces our business competitiveness in the European market.

In conclusion, this is a most important undertaking. The bill has shortcomings, specifically with regard to shipyards, but this can be resolved. There is no reason to ignore all the benefits that might accrue from an agreement with these four European countries, especially since, as I was saying, it could potentially lead to a free trade agreement with the European Union.

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February 2nd, 2009 / 5:10 p.m.
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NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

Mr. Speaker, I understand the position of my colleague's party is that it will allow the bill to go to committee. It is unfortunate. We would like to send a stronger message to carve out the shipbuilding elements right now. It is disturbing, but I give members of that party credit for speaking and being heard in the House of Commons today.

It is interesting that the official opposition has disappeared. I do not know if the member for Etobicoke—Lakeshore has told his members to stand down on this. It reminds me of Lurch, the butler in the Addams Family, who would basically hang around and do nothing all the time. Perhaps that is the strategy of the Liberal Party in terms of opposition and keeping the government accountable.

Is it more important to lay out some of the terms and conditions in the carve out, the principles of a position to oppose, or at least get a concession with regard to this deal? It has some elements that are very positive, but others that would undermine our national defence and also procurement policies for workers in Canada.

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February 2nd, 2009 / 5:15 p.m.
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Bloc

André Bellavance Bloc Richmond—Arthabaska, QC

Mr. Speaker, I cannot speak for the Liberals as to why they are not intervening. I understand that the NDP wants to boast that it is the new official opposition—and I am only saying that is their boast—but the third party here remains the Bloc Québécois. One thing is sure, Bill C-2 now before us will be sent to committee. This will mean another opportunity to reiterate the problems contained in it, in particular as concerns shipyards.

If this is a matter of national security, it must of course be debated. One thing is sure, it is an economic issue of prime importance. This is why the Bloc Québécois ensured that the committee report included its recommendation that the government stop dragging its heels on the matter and finally adopt a real policy on shipyard development. Count on us to continue to defend that tooth and nail.

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February 2nd, 2009 / 5:15 p.m.
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NDP

Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC

Mr. Speaker, I listened with a great deal of interest to what my colleague from Richmond—Arthabaska had to say. He said that this bill could be improved in committee, but he knows that we cannot change anything in this bill or in the agreement. The question is whether it is in the interests of the people of Canada and Quebec. The member must consider this. We cannot change anything. We must either support the government once again, as we did on the softwood lumber agreement, or vote against this bill.

As my colleague from Richmond—Arthabaska is aware, this agreement will affect supply management. The tariff table removes the tariffs on dairy products imported from Switzerland, Norway and Iceland. That will have an impact on the industries in Quebec and British Columbia. Removing these tariff tables threatens supply management. That is what the representative of the farmers' union told the committee.

Given the impact this agreement will have on jobs in Quebec and elsewhere in Canada, is the member prepared to vote against this bill, knowing that he cannot amend it?

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February 2nd, 2009 / 5:15 p.m.
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Bloc

André Bellavance Bloc Richmond—Arthabaska, QC

Mr. Speaker, my honourable colleague has asked this question throughout the afternoon. Each of my Bloc Québécois colleagues and I have spent long minutes stating that we are in favour of this bill. The answer, therefore, is no; we have no intention of voting against the bill because we support it. I spent about 20 minutes—if not more—explaining the advantages it has for Quebec. The members of the Bloc Québécois were elected for the purpose of defending the interests of Quebec. We are the only ones here dedicated to doing that every day.

In terms of supply management, it is obvious that if there were any threat at all, we would not support such a bill. Milk proteins are excluded from the agreement; the tariff quotas and over-quota tariffs remain unchanged. In other words, products that are under supply management are still protected. Although I stated that we will be vigilant with regard to the bilateral agreement with Switzerland, that will not stop us from voting for this bill which, overall, is good for Quebec companies.

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February 2nd, 2009 / 5:15 p.m.
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Bloc

Serge Cardin Bloc Sherbrooke, QC

Mr. Speaker, we strongly support those two aspects, but we do have some concerns about them. In terms of the pharmaceutical industry, Quebec will come out on top, and so, by extension, will the federal government because it makes us pay taxes and never gives anything back. Quebec can also benefit tremendously from nickel and aluminum. But there are still two other issues: agricultural supply management and a proper development policy for the shipbuilding industry.

Because of these two concerns, we believe that, for once, the government really must act. I am talking about the party in power. We did try when the Liberals were in power, but we are trying again with the Conservatives in the hope that they will eventually see that they have to do something about this.

The Conservative government does have one talent: ambiguity. In the context of supply management, while contradictory statements have been made, we need to be sure that the Conservative government will defend supply management at the WTO and that it will bring forward a real policy for the shipbuilding industry.

My question is for my colleague: even though we lost confidence in the government last fall, is it possible to believe that they will make a specific commitment to supply management and a moral—and practical—commitment to development in the months to come?

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February 2nd, 2009 / 5:20 p.m.
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Bloc

André Bellavance Bloc Richmond—Arthabaska, QC

Mr. Speaker, if the government abandons the supply management system in the DOHA round negotiations, which have presently broken off but will undoubtedly resume at the WTO, all free trade agreements that we may enter into could become problematic at a given point. It is obvious that if the government does not stand up to the World Trade Organization with respect to bilateral agreements with certain countries—where there is talk of playing with tariffs on milk or other products—then, we will be finished. That is where we must wage the battle.

As I said earlier, how can we have confidence in this government when one minister after another said Canada would not be the only country not to sign an agreement at the WTO? Members can read the testimony of the ministers who told us that in committee. This means that regardless of what is in the agreement about agriculture, Canada will sign. Obviously, this government will then have the dubious distinction of having not only threatened the supply management system, but killed it.

I would remind this House that no less than 40% of Quebec's agricultural economy depends on supply management. Of course, in other provinces that also have the supply management system, such as Ontario, Manitoba and New Brunswick, producers are very concerned about what is happening.

The current Minister of International Trade said he wanted to meet with the Director General of the WTO, Pascal Lamy, to reopen the discussions that were interrupted last July in Geneva. This is disturbing, because the wording that was put before the countries threatened the supply management system.

I know that this week the dairy producers of Canada and Quebec will visit all of the members. I am sure that they will teach everyone something. I ask that all of the members in the House listen to them closely because if we are not vigilant on this subject, we risk putting people out on the street. They will be here this week. They will talk to us and it would be worth listening.

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February 2nd, 2009 / 5:20 p.m.
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NDP

Malcolm Allen NDP Welland, ON

Mr. Speaker, this trade agreement reminds me of the old adage that if one does not pay attention to history, one is bound to repeat it. It seems that in this case we may be repeating a mistake that was made not that long ago and many miles away. It reminds me of what happened in the dry docks in the U.K., which faced similar unfair competition. Hundreds of those dry dock workers came to work in the dry docks in this country which at that time were flourishing. Indeed, this country recruited those workers in the hundreds because of their skills and the value they could bring to our country's dry docks.

I remember that all too well. I was a youngster at the time and my father was one of those workers who came to this country as a dry dock worker. He was a shipwright by trade. Those who know the marine industry know the types of skills that entails. He brought his family here and obviously we stayed.

We left the U.K. because the dry dock in Clydeside where he had a job, while it had been there for over a century was going and is now gone. In fact the remaining piece on the Clydeside is a crane. On that crane is a large plaque commemorating the lives and the work of those shipyard workers who built those ships. It would be a shame if this country were to build that last crane and place a plaque on it in memory of all those shipyard workers in this country who have gone before and there would be no more again.

That is why it is so important as we consider this bill that we look at the parts that affect the shipbuilding industry and those highly skilled and valued marine workers who work in the shipyards day in and day out. They provide services to us. They build coast guard vessels, and hopefully soon will build Department of National Defence ships, provided that the government decides to do it here.

Quite often the United States is held in esteem by many nations throughout the world as being a country to look up to, a country to emulate, and a country that has great ideas. I agree with that. In fact the U.S. had a great idea called the Jones act. That act talks about U.S. ships that will be built with U.S. money, that will be built by U.S. workers in U.S. shipyards. It seems like a great idea, especially when using taxpayers' dollars.

All too often Canadians think that we do not spend their hard-earned taxpayers' dollars as wisely as we could. I guarantee that if we spent those hard-earned dollars that Canadians entrust to us on building ships, they would thank us. They would say that it was a wise investment, a good choice, an excellent idea.

We are entering into a trade agreement with countries like Norway. Norway has developed a strategy, and good for it. Norway should do what it has done over the last 20 years. Norway's shipyards are flourishing, efficient and well stocked with skilled workers.

During that same period of time we ignored our shipyards. We let them decline to the point that today one-third of the shipyards in this country operate at one-third capacity. That is a shame.

My riding of Welland encompasses more than the city of Welland. It encompasses Port Colborne. Almost half the Welland canal runs through my riding. The history of shipbuilding along that canal goes back to the 1800s. We want to see a flourishing shipyard industry in this country where marine workers are proud to build ships that fly Canadian flags.

What we are looking for is a policy that asks, what is wrong with Canadian workers? Why do we not want to invest in those Canadian workers? Why do we not want Canadian workers to build Canadian ships?

It amazes me, as someone who is new to this House, that every now and again it seems that we forget why we are here. Canadians sent us here to advance what they wanted to have advanced for them. If we went to a dry dock today, and I have not been to one in a while, during the election campaign, but I would be more than happy to go back, I believe those marine workers would say that they want us to spend that money on Canadian yards, on Canadian workers, building Canadian ships here, not in Norway. I think we would find, regardless of which political party we belong to, that those workers indeed would say that.

The simple matter is that that investment multiplies itself through an economy. If we had decided to tender that defence ship rather than saying it was going to cost us a few pennies more, we could have had that investment go in as part of a stimulus package that would actually help those dry dock workers and those communities flourish. Unfortunately, that has not happened.

My father first got hired in a place called Collingwood. Many members many not remember that Collingwood actually had a shipyard. We used to be able to look down its main street and we could see this great big ship at the end of the street. It looked like it was parked on the street, but indeed there was a dry dock there.

Across this land there were many places where there were dry docks. Unfortunately, too many of them have closed. It seems to me that what we ought to do is make sure that not one more yard closes in this country, and one of the ways to do that is to ensure that we invest and make sure that we actually put those workers back to work, building a fleet of ships that not only would they be proud of but this country would be proud of, and that would emulate the best in the world.

I have absolutely no doubt that we would build anything but the best. Our workers are the most highly skilled, and given a level playing field, can be the most competitive and efficient in the world. What they need is an opportunity. With this particular bill, those workers are not going to be given that opportunity.

It is amazing the folks that actually talk about getting an opportunity. Some inside the Shipbuilders Association would say, “Perhaps we ought to just let it go”, but that is a defeatist attitude. That is not the attitude of Canadian workers. Canadian workers do not have a defeatist attitude. In fact, Canadian workers are very optimistic. All we need to do is have some faith in those workers and put some investment in those workers, and indeed we would be building some of the finest ships, if not the finest ships, the world has ever seen. One of our friends in the association said:

--we're very good friends with them, and we don't mind doing that, but now we feel that they're putting the boots to us. Not only do they want us to buy their equipment, they want to build the ships in Norway, put their own equipment on them, and then send them to Canada. I think the government has to think a long time before it does that.

Why would he say that? There is more to a ship than just simply building a hull. There is all manner of instrumentation and high technology. Depending upon where it goes, if it goes into the oil fields, in the offshore, it becomes a very intricate piece of equipment that requires a great deal of technology. That type of technology is extremely important to this economy. We do not want to have that type of technology leave this country, since it is our offshore that these ships will be working in. I am sure our offshore workers on those drilling platforms would really want to see a Canadian ship, built by Canadians and flying a Canadian flag, heading out toward them as they work that platform.

What it also would do is make sure that we protect those jobs. When we talk about the Jones act, it has been in place since 1920. That is a long time. It will soon have its centennial anniversary of 100 years. Yet, it has never been repealed. It has never really ever been challenged, not under NAFTA, not under WTO. It just exists. Everyone acknowledges it. Everyone accepts it. Yet, when it comes time to protect Canadian workers, we cannot find the courage to have an exception for our workers, but we are quite happy to turn a blind eye, nudge, nudge, wink, wink and say it is “Only America, it is okay, let it be”.

It seems to me that we ought to have the same legislation here. We could call it whatever we want, Jones 2 if we like, but at least we ought to have an equal playing field. We would like to see a structured financial facility, an accelerated capital cost allowance for the industry, and an effective buy Canada policy for all government procurements.

When one looks at this sense of procurement, what does it really mean? It means spending hard earned taxpayers' dollars that we collect in Canada. The net beneficiary of course of collecting that money and spending it here would ultimately be the Canadian taxpayer who actually paid it in the first place. Some might say, “That might cost us a bit more”. Indeed, it might. Perhaps it will cost us $1.05 when we might have been able to buy it for $1.

However, it seems to me if we spent that $1.05 on a Canadian worker, that Canadian worker has to repatriate some of his money back in the form of taxes and that $1.05 that it cost indeed might only cost 85¢ by the time the 20¢ is paid back in taxes. Ultimately, we are 15¢ ahead on the $1. It seems like a bargain. Then again, I am not an economist.

I am just the member for the riding of Welland who remembers as a child all those boats being built and all those workers being employed. Now he sees the service facilities in his riding working at less than half capacity and in some cases shut down for periods of time, and has not seen a new ship built in those yards in a great number of years and would ultimately like to see that.

As my colleague from Nova Scotia said earlier, there is about $22 billion that needs to be put into infrastructure in the marine industry. It seems to me there is not a yard across the country that would not be busy if indeed we did that.

Unfortunately, we are not doing that. We are letting these yards dry up as if it does not matter, as if someone else will do it for us, and indeed they will. But when we no longer have the capacity to do it and someone else does, we are at the mercy of them and what they wish to charge us when we need those ships to go to those drilling platforms, to assist those workers, to resupply them, and to do all the necessary things that those rigs will need.

It would be a shame if indeed what we thought would be an effective trade deal turned out to be an expensive one for Canadians because we ended up not keeping a shipyard business.

Shipyards go back a long way and a lot further back than just the story I recounted as a youngster coming to this country with my parents. Shipyard building for a marine nation such as ours goes back hundreds of years. In fact, it was marine nations that actually were able to send ships here in the first place that ended up meeting the first nations of this country all those hundreds of years ago. It seems to me that what happened at that point was those marine nations understood the type of infrastructure that was here when it came to lumber and indeed created the marine industry that has lasted all those generations.

We need to continue to build on that. Andrew McArthur from the Shipbuilding Association of Canada and Irving Shipbuilding said:

So our position from day one has been that shipbuilding should be carved out from the trade agreement. We butted our heads against a brick wall for quite a number of years on that and we were told there is no carve-out. If the Americans, under the Jones Act, can carve out shipbuilding from NAFTA and other free trade agreements, as I believe the Americans are doing today with Korea, or have done, why can Canada not do the same?

It seems to me that is an extremely relevant question. Why can Canada not do that? We have the power in the House to do that. Even for someone who has been here for such a short period of time, I think it is day 16, but it seems to me that is what we are empowered to do. We actually have, as Mr. McArthur said, the power to do that. What a novel thought, that we would actually enact, take that sense of urgency that marine and other workers across this country are giving to us and say we have to act on behalf of them. The Americans did. Why would we choose not to? If it is good enough for American workers all those years ago in 1920, surely to goodness in 2009 it is good enough for Canadians. So I would ask the government to look at carving it out.

As my colleague said earlier, this is not a bad total trade agreement. There is just a piece on shipbuilding that does not fit what Canadian workers need to have. We want to carve the shipbuilding piece out. Let us do what other nations have done. They have ultimately, over the years, done similar things and there is no reason why we cannot do the same.

Since the power is in our hands, proverbially as they say, that is the thing I have learned in the House, then why not utilize it? Why not indeed act upon it? That would be a novel thought for the House to protect Canadian workers at a time when they are most vulnerable, at a time where we can actually do something for them. They would say to us that we made the right choice, a great decision, and indeed had an effect on their lives, not only theirs from a personal perspective, but their families, their communities and ultimately this country. That would be a magical moment for a new person in the House like me, to actually say, when I leave this place, that we made a difference in the lives of Canadians. This is our opportunity.

It would be a shame for us to let that opportunity pass because ultimately we will be held to account for those opportunities that we let pass. I do not necessarily mean in elections. Ultimately, we have to look at what we have done as a lifetime of work for our fellow citizens, our communities and our country. That is the test we hold ourselves to when we make a difference, not whether to get re-elected, but whether we made a difference for Canadians. This is an ample opportunity to make that difference.

I would ask the government and my colleagues on the opposition benches to take a hard look at this piece of legislation and take the opportunity to act on behalf of Canadian workers, just like the Americans did with the Jones act, and exempt this piece on shipbuilding, so that it defends shipbuilding workers in Canada and allows them to get back on equal footing.

Canada-EFTA Free Trade Agreement Implementation ActGovernment Orders

February 2nd, 2009 / 5:40 p.m.
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Carleton—Mississippi Mills Ontario

Conservative

Gordon O'Connor ConservativeMinister of State and Chief Government Whip

Mr. Speaker, I do not normally get involved in these debates, but I can only take the NDP's dire prediction of the shipyards for only so long. I want to lay out what is really happening.

In Canada we have shipyards in the Atlantic region, in Quebec, Ontario and B.C. All of these shipyards at this moment are doing good in their commercial business. For example, the Lévis yard, which was going to go out of business a few years ago, was bought by the Norwegians. It is producing the various rigs for oil and gas. All the other yards are operating.

I want to clarify what the government policy is with respect to ships and shipbuilding. With respect to government contracts, the DND or the Coast Guard are compelled to start with Canadian shipyards and deal with them. They are—

Canada-EFTA Free Trade Agreement Implementation ActGovernment Orders

February 2nd, 2009 / 5:45 p.m.
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NDP

Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC

You cancelled them.

Canada-EFTA Free Trade Agreement Implementation ActGovernment Orders

February 2nd, 2009 / 5:45 p.m.
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Conservative

Gordon O'Connor Conservative Carleton—Mississippi Mills, ON

Mr. Speaker, if the member would let me finish, he can then answer.

On the order books right now are four submarines will be upgraded, 12 frigates will be upgraded, 6 to 8 Arctic vessels will be built, 3 support ships will be built and 98 Coast Guard vessels will be built. They have not been cancelled. The first round of bids on the support ships were not acceptable, so they are going to try again—

Canada-EFTA Free Trade Agreement Implementation ActGovernment Orders

February 2nd, 2009 / 5:45 p.m.
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NDP

Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC

They were cancelled.

Canada-EFTA Free Trade Agreement Implementation ActGovernment Orders

February 2nd, 2009 / 5:45 p.m.
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Conservative

Gordon O'Connor Conservative Carleton—Mississippi Mills, ON

You obviously do not understand government or how the process works.

We have so much work for our Canadian shipyards that they will be busy for more than a decade.

We have to look at the cost, the capability and the schedule. If a shipyard cannot build something, or none of our shipyards can build a specific vessel, then we will have to go offshore. For anything offshore, we are committed to 100% industrial benefits in Canada. If somebody in a foreign country receives one of these contracts, the company would have to invest the equivalent of $1 for every $1 we spend—

Canada-EFTA Free Trade Agreement Implementation ActGovernment Orders

February 2nd, 2009 / 5:45 p.m.
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Conservative

The Deputy Speaker Conservative Andrew Scheer

Order, please. I am afraid I am going to have to cut off the hon. government whip to allow time for the member to respond.

I did hear some use of the first person and some people talking when the whip was speaking. If we could just reserve questions and comments to when the chair recognizes members that would be helpful.

I will allow the hon. member for Welland an opportunity to respond.

Canada-EFTA Free Trade Agreement Implementation ActGovernment Orders

February 2nd, 2009 / 5:45 p.m.
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NDP

Malcolm Allen NDP Welland, ON

Mr. Speaker, the government cancelled a lot of the programs. The government might reinstate them at some point, but right now they are not there. I looked at the budget and the amount of money that was allocated to build two new defence ships. The government cancelled the program because it said that it was too expensive. The government decided not to build them, so at this point they are not being built.

Even the Canadian Shipbuilding Association says that it is a shadow of its former self. The shipyards left in the St. Catharines area are not robust. In fact, just a year ago the port Welland dry dock had nobody in it because there were no boats to build and no repairs to make—

Canada-EFTA Free Trade Agreement Implementation ActGovernment Orders

February 2nd, 2009 / 5:45 p.m.
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Conservative

Chuck Strahl Conservative Chilliwack—Fraser Canyon, BC

And what about now?

Canada-EFTA Free Trade Agreement Implementation ActGovernment Orders

February 2nd, 2009 / 5:45 p.m.
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NDP

Malcolm Allen NDP Welland, ON

Perhaps there might be if the money flows, Mr. Speaker, but then again the government has to ensure it does not cancel this one. Ultimately, we need to build up those abilities again.

The hon. member mentioned that we had to build these things overseas because we did not have the ability anymore. The reason we do not have the ability is because you let it slide away. You allowed those skills to erode. You did not give those workers the ability to work. You need to take some of your training money and reinvest in those workers and those yards—

Canada-EFTA Free Trade Agreement Implementation ActGovernment Orders

February 2nd, 2009 / 5:45 p.m.
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Conservative

The Deputy Speaker Conservative Andrew Scheer

I know the hon. member is new to this place, but I will remind him that we do not direct comments directly at ministers and use the first person, but through the chair.

The hon. member for Burlington.

Canada-EFTA Free Trade Agreement Implementation ActGovernment Orders

February 2nd, 2009 / 5:45 p.m.
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Conservative

Mike Wallace Conservative Burlington, ON

Mr. Speaker, I was in my office listening to the presentations from my friends from the New Democrats. I welcome the member for Welland. To give them a little sense of my understanding, in the last two years I have done a study in the port of Halifax, Quebec City, Toronto, Hamilton and St. Catharines. I have been on the seaway. I have been on the Welland Canal. I have been to the port of Vancouver and I have been at the port of Prince Rupert.

This free trade deal is about a 25% duty that will be phased out over a 15-year period, not overnight. Nothing changes in the first three years and then it is a gradual removal over 15 years. If one looks at how much money the Canadian shipbuilders have invested in Norway over the last number of years, it is $16 million. It is like an oil change. One tanker is worth $130 million.

There has not been a tanker built in Canada for the Great Lakes system since 1985. Those skills have gone over there. However, we have a robust shipping business in our country. Our shippers need product that is more environmentally sensitive to be able to move product from A to B. It is a good deal for Canada and it is a good deal for us to have these free trade agreements with different parts of the country.

The members like to talk, and I hear it all the time, about a combined ACCA, or accelerated capital cost allowance, and a combined SFS to make it more economical for a shipper to buy a foreign ship. When I was in Quebec City, the biggest ship owner in Canada was there, and it had put out for purchasing. It could not get anybody to buy. It is paying the 25%, which cannot be financed. What difference does that make in terms of actual cost to a $130 million vehicle?

Canada-EFTA Free Trade Agreement Implementation ActGovernment Orders

February 2nd, 2009 / 5:50 p.m.
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NDP

Malcolm Allen NDP Welland, ON

Mr. Speaker, there is no question that ships move things, and I guess vehicles do as well. Twenty-five percent of $130 million is somewhere akin to about $35 million, give or take $100,000.

We have seen trade treaties and tariff things eliminated before. The argument is always that it is over an extended period of time. The shipbuilders' association and the marine workers are saying that they understand it is over a period of time. They are asking for a re-training program and the opportunity to do what the Norwegians did for the same 20 years that we did not do, which is an industrial policy that talks about marine workers in the shipyards.

If the government were to do that and give them the same opportunities that Norway gave its yards, we probably might accept that trade-off. However, it seems to me that this is not what it is proposing. We are going to eliminate the duty and tariffs, and it will go. It reminds me of the auto pact. It did the same thing there. Ask me how the Big Three are doing today.

Canada-EFTA Free Trade Agreement Implementation ActGovernment Orders

February 2nd, 2009 / 5:50 p.m.
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NDP

Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC

Mr. Speaker, the Conservatives are waking up. They are starting to realize they have lost this debate because, unfortunately, they made the tragic error of throwing together a bill around this bad EFTA agreement without thinking of the impacts on shipbuilding. Now that it is being thrown back at them, they are starting to awaken to the fact that Canadians are not going to tolerate a government selling out again, like it did with the softwood sellout, another major industrial sector.

The Conservatives have said that the NDP is making comments about this EFTA agreement. I started to quote the many comments we heard from shipbuilders and marine workers themselves, all of them condemning the EFTA agreement and the lack of a carve-out. Why is there not a carve-out—

Canada-EFTA Free Trade Agreement Implementation ActGovernment Orders

February 2nd, 2009 / 5:50 p.m.
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Conservative

The Deputy Speaker Conservative Andrew Scheer

Order, please. There are 20 seconds left for the hon. member for Welland.

Canada-EFTA Free Trade Agreement Implementation ActGovernment Orders

February 2nd, 2009 / 5:50 p.m.
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NDP

Malcolm Allen NDP Welland, ON

Mr. Speaker, the bottom line is we need a carve-out and all it takes is courage on behalf of parliamentarians to simply say that we will carve it out.

Canada-EFTA Free Trade Agreement Implementation ActGovernment Orders

February 2nd, 2009 / 5:50 p.m.
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NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure to speak to the bill before the House, Bill C-2, on the European Free Trade Association trade agreement. It is important to understand what we are talking about. There are only a few countries involved: Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway and Switzerland. There is also an agreement on agriculture between Canada and the Republic of Iceland and various agreements related to the Norway and the Swiss federation on agriculture as well. They are part of the bill.

This party believes in trade. We believe in fair trade. I know a lot of members across the way would like to guffaw about that. They seem to think that free trade is a thing we do by taking off our warm coats and exposing ourselves to the cold for reasons of fashion. It is fashionable to talk about free trade and trading with other countries.

Our party believes in fair trade. We have a lot of examples of that. The Auto Pact is one of them, where there is a fair trade agreement between Canada and the United States dealing with trade and very important commodities at serious risk today. However, the government has a very one-sided view on trade, and that is knock down the barriers and we will have free trade. However, when it chooses to do it, it seems to choose to do it with people who have already put their own industry in a position where they are anxious to enter into a free trade agreement with Canada because Canada is not willing to protect its own industries.

We have heard various speeches this afternoon. I was particularly impressed by the speech by the member for Sackville—Eastern Shore, who has been on the shipbuilding file ever since he entered the House of Commons. I have worked with him over the years on this file, as well as with other members of the shipbuilding industry, in particular, the Marine Workers Union. The Government of Newfoundland and Labrador was very interested in this, as well. Newfoundland and Labrador has a great interest in shipbuilding. The Marystown shipyard, with the Cowhead facility, has been active in building up its capacity and ability to actively participate in shipbuilding ventures. We have been following this file tremendously.

In fact, if the government of the day and the previous governments listened to the member for Sackville—Eastern Shore for the last I think 11 years, we would have a shipbuilding industry that would be able to compete on a level playing field with Norway and we would not be probably in this position opposing this aspect of the bill. We would have had what Norway has had for the last 10 or 15 years. It used to be called an industrial policy on shipbuilding.

I know industrial policy is a very unfashionable word among the think tanks of the right, industrial policy as opposed to this whole notion of “let the free enterprise system do everything”. It is some ideological mantra that has got us where we are today in the world with the collapse of the international financial markets and the stock market as a result of this blind ideology of deregulation, free trade and lack of concern over the ways in which governments can and should regulate industry, protect their national interests and ensure that the kinds of things that should be happening are happening.

We are a coastal nation, as has been mentioned before today. We have the longest coastline in the world, the Arctic, the Pacific and the Atlantic, areas where we have a national interest, whether it be on the east coast with respect to protection of our fisheries and coastal protection in general, environmental protection in the Arctic, which is very important, and in the Pacific as well. Yet we have a situation where we do not really have a shipbuilding industry policy.

I listened to the minister of state, the chief government whip. I am glad to hear that all these shipbuilding projects are, I think he said, on the books.

The books were presented to the House of Commons the other day. I did not see all these projects. I did not see the joint supply ships back on the books. I did not see the Arctic icebreakers that we need and which the government said it has to have in order to ensure our Arctic sovereignty. I did not see them on the books in the budget.

Here is a budget that is supposed to provide economic stimulus to the industrial workers of Canada. If the contract for the joint supply ships alone had gone to the Marystown facility, it would have provided about 20 years of long-term stable work, the construction phase for about eight or ten years and a longer term maintenance project for the joint supply ships, which is something that Canada needs. We all know we need it. The government knows we need it, but what did it do? A couple of days before the election was called it shut down that project. It shut down that bid.

Why did the Conservatives do that? They said the price was too high. The price was too high because the project was initially costed back in 2002. The government never made any allowances for the increase in costs of procurement and materials, labour and everything else in between. Of course, when the price eventually came in, it was over what was anticipated in terms of the budget.

There is something wrong with a government that is not prepared to recognize that if we do not move fast on projects, the costs will obviously go up and we still have to decide whether or not we need these facilities and ships.

I listened carefully to the budget and I did not hear very much about shipbuilding, but I have to say that I was very pleasantly surprised when I looked in the budget documents, the big thick book that we got with the budget. Lo and behold on page 172 of the budget there is actually a section called “Shipbuilding”.

I was very enthused because I thought that the joint supply ships would be put back, the Arctic icebreakers would be built and we would see a serious attempt by the government to recognize the needs of the shipbuilding industry in Canada. What did I find? There is a recognition of the importance of the industry with 150 establishments, 30 shipyards across the country, recognizing, contrary to what the minister of state has said, that everybody is thriving. The budget itself recognizes that in recent years the industry has experienced decline in demand which has been exacerbated by the economic downturn. The Minister of Finance must need to hear from the government whip, who would inform him that everybody is thriving and everybody is busy. However, that is not the case.

The government's response is to have a shipbuilding program, so called, that involves $175 million to build something in excess of 90, what it calls, vessels. Someone talked about conveyances or vehicles a few minutes ago, but the government calls them vessels. What are these vessels? Sixty new small craft and 30 environmental response barges. The last time I looked, a barge was not exactly a ship. It goes in the water and it floats, but I do not see it as the kind of thing we would regard as a major undertaking in the shipbuilding industry. Obviously it is very necessary, do not get me wrong, and I was delighted to see the term “shipbuilding” being used.

I was delighted to see the recognition of the importance of shipbuilding, but I was very disappointed to see that what was involved here was new small craft. It does not say how small they are. Thirty barges, five lifeboats and there were three inshore science vessels. Those are important. One is home ported in Mont-Joli, Quebec, one in Shippagan, New Brunswick and one in Saint Andrews, New Brunswick, so there are two in New Brunswick and one in Quebec. Again, we do not know how big they are. We do not know whether they play the same kind of role as the very important scientific vessels that have been operating off the east coast for the last number of years.

We see vessel extensions as part of the project. The Cape Roger, whose home port is St. John's, is one that will be given a major repair.

There is something called vessel refits. There are 35 vessels scheduled for refit. These vessels are not large craft. There are 60 small craft, 30 barges, 5 lifeboats, and 3 inshore vessels. There are 98 vessels being built along with a number of major refits totalling $175 million. As the minister of state would know, when dealing with the building of ships, that is not a lot of money, $175 million for 98 vessels, not counting the ship repairs and the major refits that are involved. That money is spread out very thinly across the country.

What we did needed to see was a recognition that a national shipbuilding program was going to be part of an ongoing effort by the government to ensure that we have a shipbuilding industry that is able to compete. It is one thing to talk about how this is going to take place over 15 years and is gradually going to go down, but what are we going to be doing in the meantime?

If the Liberal government back in the 1990s, and the Conservative government, both the current one and previous one, had listened to what the member for Sackville—Eastern Shore was saying throughout the years, we would have a shipbuilding policy and we would not be complaining about the problems of engaging in competition with Norway. This really should be taken out of the trade agreement, the same way it was taken out of the free trade agreement with the Americans.

Countries protect their interests when they are dealing with trade deals. That is why, for example, the Americans refused to repeal the Jones act. The Jones act has been around since 1920. It is a piece of legislation that protects American shipbuilding under the guise of defence. The Jones act says that with respect to commercial travel, one cannot travel between two ports in the United States without having a ship that has been built in America, is manned by Americans, is owned by Americans and operates within America. It cannot be done, unless it is on that kind of ship. Canada has no such policy. America refuses to get rid of that policy. We do not have an equivalent policy in Canada.

It appears that we have no desire to develop a shipbuilding policy that is going to protect our workers and our industry before we are forced to run head to head with the Norwegians. The shipbuilding industry has asked to have this excluded from the agreement with good reason. The industry knows what Norway has done to build and support and protect its shipbuilding industry for the last 15 years. If there was a commitment, if we had an industrial plan laid out, a long-term commitment of government funds, it might be a different story, but we have not seen that.

There is an opportunity at this time when governments are being given permission by all the economists, the public and other nations of the world to engage in economic stimulus. The conditions are most favourable for the kind of investment we are talking about, and the response from the government is $175 million to deal with 98 smallish--and I do not want to put them down totally--but smallish projects for the Canadian coast guard.

No doubt these vessels are needed. No doubt their refits are needed. We have seen inadequacies in our coast guard. In fact we have seen situations where the coast guard was so inadequately financed that the ships were staying in port. The ships were not going out because there was not enough in the budget to pay the diesel fuel to move the ships around, to protect our coastal waters, to protect our environment, to inspect the fisheries. They were staying in port because the government was not giving them enough fuel. That is the state of the support for our coast guard.

We see some change. At least the coast guard will be given some vessels that it needs, but it is not being given the support for the important role it should be undertaking in protecting our waters for environmental reasons, in protecting our Arctic sovereignty, in ensuring that fisheries patrols are carried out efficiently and effectively. These are the kinds of things that should be part of a modern, industrial, coastal nation such as Canada and they are absent here.

There is another aspect of this agreement which I will only touch on briefly because other members have talked about it. It goes back to the whole notion of fair trade. Why is it that Canada does not protect to the degree required the supply management system? It is an important way that we secure our food supply. Food security in an uncertain world is becoming more and more important. It is going to become even more important as we see the ravages of climate change on food production in other parts of the world, as well as in Canada.

We have to recognize that part of our responsibilities as a government and as a people is to ensure that food supply is available when we need it, that production is here, and that the people who are engaged in the production have an opportunity to make a reasonable living. They play an important role in ensuring that our economy is safe from the kind of vicissitudes that can occur when trading goes awry or when food supplies go awry and we do not have the kind of supply that we have built up through a totally free trade system coming from other nations.

Supply management is part of that. It is a building block for a fair trade system and should be protected better than it is in this particular agreement.

Supply management plays an important role in ensuring that production occurs across our country. Some of our colleagues from Quebec have spoken about the importance of the dairy industry to that province and I agree. In Newfoundland and Labrador, for example, by securing part of the quota for industrial milk, it has been able to build its post-production with commercial milk, yogourt and other dairy products. These are value-added products from industrial milk quotas protected by the supply management system, a necessary kick-start to an industry that would have great difficulty growing on its own, especially with the cheap products coming in from outside the region, because they have had an opportunity to build up an industry over a longer period of time.

These are the two main problems that we have with the agreement. Why is it that there cannot be a carve out of the shipbuilding industry? It should be taken out. In the absence of a rather robust and long-term commitment for shipbuilding and industrial policies in this country, our shipbuilding industry will be put at risk. This is something that we do not want to happen.

Those are my remarks. I would be pleased to respond to any questions or comments from members on this matter.

Canada-EFTA Free Trade Agreement Implementation ActGovernment Orders

February 2nd, 2009 / 6:10 p.m.
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Chilliwack—Fraser Canyon B.C.

Conservative

Chuck Strahl ConservativeMinister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development and Federal Interlocutor for Métis and Non-Status Indians

Mr. Speaker, I would like to comment on what the member had to say.

It is interesting to preface the remarks that the NDP members really are free traders at heart, but they just cannot support this free trade agreement. Of course they could not support the Canada-Israel free trade agreement. They voted against the Canada-Costa Rica free trade agreement. They promised to vote against the Colombian free trade agreement, the Peru free trade agreement, and any other free trade agreement that would come before this House, but other than that, they are fully in favour of free trade. That is very interesting.

When it comes to supply management, I was in Geneva, I was in Davos representing supply management and agriculture during those discussions. We are the government that brought in compositional standards for the dairy industry. On behalf of my government, I received the first and only standing ovation ever given to a minister, because we actually moved ahead on all that. We actually believed in all that. We actually supported all that. That is why we made sure in this agreement that supply managed industries are protected. They are protected. The member should read the agreement.

There are a couple of other things. One is that when it comes to a domestic shipbuilding industry, the hon. minister has already made mention of how the work that is lined up in the shipbuilding industry in Canada is not only for this year but it stretches out for the next 10 years. There is a lot of good work with lots of well-paying jobs all across the country, wherever there are shipbuilding facilities. That is good news. That is because of the actions this government has taken on a procurement basis to make sure that that happened. There may have been empty work yards a year ago, but it is not happening now. It is not only good news now, but it stretches off into the future.

Regarding the NDP's solution to shipbuilding, members could go to B.C. and see that just offshore there is $450 million tied up in an NDP fiasco called the fast ferries. Anytime we want to witness how the NDP shipbuilding strategy works, there are empty vessels parked on shore at taxpayers' expense that have never turned a wheel. That is the trouble with economic illiteracy and it is abounding in the NDP in this debate today.

Canada-EFTA Free Trade Agreement Implementation ActGovernment Orders

February 2nd, 2009 / 6:10 p.m.
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NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

Mr. Speaker, I want to congratulate the member on his standing ovation in Switzerland for his support for supply management in this country. I have not seen him getting many standing ovations on this side of the House on the actions of his government with respect to the Wheat Board either.

If the minister is actively supporting supply management and prepared to defend that in international agreements and in all international efforts, I want to thank him for that. I think that is what the government has to do and has to do vigorously.

As to his comments about the NDP being free traders at heart but simply do not support free trade agreements, what I said was that we believe in fair trade. Fair trade has elements of free trade, but it has elements of ensuring that we do not go into a free trade agreement and expose ourselves to the elements that other countries have built up through subsidies and through long-term industrial policies in their countries and then come knocking at our door and say, “We'd like to have a free trade agreement, remove barriers so we can come in and penetrate an industry that you haven't done a very good job of protecting”.

That is what we are saying here, that it is an industry where Canada has failed to have a proper policy. I guess the government's budget is a good example of that. There is reference made to shipbuilding and the importance of shipbuilding in the decline, but then where is the response? The response is to say, as the government whip said, “We've got all this work on our books but we're not going to do it. We're not going to do it in this budget”. We have an economic stimulus budget that is being bragged about as the greatest level of stimulation to be put into the economy in decades, but what is there for shipbuilding?

Out of the $64 billion deficit that the government plans to run in the next two years there is $175 million allocated for shipbuilding. That is not enough.

Canada-EFTA Free Trade Agreement Implementation ActGovernment Orders

February 2nd, 2009 / 6:15 p.m.
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NDP

John Rafferty NDP Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON

Mr. Speaker, I certainly appreciate the member's comments and certainly the minister's comments just before that. I invite him to come to Thunder Bay to see our shipbuilding facilities where not one ship is being built at this moment and not one ship was built last year. I invite him to come and I will personally show him around. The government mentioned that extending tariffs for some vessels for up to 15 years was an important part of EFTA. Without any other measures, is this not simply a stay of execution for the shipbuilding industry?

Canada-EFTA Free Trade Agreement Implementation ActGovernment Orders

February 2nd, 2009 / 6:15 p.m.
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NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

Mr. Speaker, surely, this is all it is doing. It is saying this is okay because it is stretched out over 15 years. Somehow or other the industry is supposed to respond to this on its own while we are competing with an industry that has been built up, supported, developed, subsidized, and nurtured by a government such as Norway, a country with one-third of the population of Canada but that has done a very good job of managing its internal resources, looking after its people, and making sure that when it develops an industry it is an industry that can compete in the world.

We have for example Norse Hydro which is participating in the offshore of Newfoundland and Labrador to a greater extent, through Statoil Hydro which is participating in the offshore of Newfoundland and Labrador with 12% of one project and 18% of another. They are active players in our offshore as a government agency. Norway has done this kind of work in ensuring that it is an international player in shipbuilding, in aquaculture, in salmon marketing, and all sorts of industries that it nurtured and developed. Shipbuilding is one of them.

We have to do the same if we hope to compete. Just sort of staging a withdrawal or staging out tariffs is essentially a staged withdrawal from being a competitive player, if one does not do the work on the ground to make it happen.

Canada-EFTA Free Trade Agreement Implementation ActGovernment Orders

February 2nd, 2009 / 6:15 p.m.
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Carleton—Mississippi Mills Ontario

Conservative

Gordon O'Connor ConservativeMinister of State and Chief Government Whip

Mr. Speaker, I want to explain budgeting very quickly. Starting in 2006, and through 2007 and 2008 our government committed billions and billions into the shipyards. They may not show up in this budget, all these billions, but they have been committed by the government. Therefore, all those DND projects are there. The money is there and it will be spent. It just does not show up in this budget. The member has to go back and do the research.

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February 2nd, 2009 / 6:20 p.m.
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NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the explanation of the government whip, but we have had the same experience with the infrastructure funds where there are billions of dollars on the books but they are not being spent, so what good does it actually do? I thank him for his comments, but we will be looking actively for that money being spent.

I see the $175 million in this budget for the 98 vessels on a cash basis, and perhaps the member can explain to me whether I am right in assuming that a cash basis means that if we do not spend it in this budget year, then it is not on the books, that it is gone and it will not be spent. I think I am right in saying that, but if the member is right when he says that other projects are on the books, then we look forward to his government making an announcement as to when the joint supply ships will be constructed, and when that tender will go out again so we can see some action on it.

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February 2nd, 2009 / 6:20 p.m.
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NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

Mr. Speaker, I am glad to rise to debate this issue. It is very important, especially given the fact that as we look at another trade agreement we have our current agreements that are not being complied with. We have seen this government capitulate with regard to softwood lumber. There, we were able to pull a defeat from the jaws of victory. We had won the court cases and had the victory through the dispute resolution process, but we decided instead to settle for defeat.

The consequence of that, as we have heard from the member for Thunder Bay—Rainy River, is that the industry has basically become a net exporter of raw resources and has a diminished capacity for secondary post-production, which is the real value of some of the skill set training and knowledge of Canadian workers. That is important to recognize because we further undermine our ability to protect this country and also prosper by becoming a net exporter of resources.

This Parliament is moving forward rather quickly with regard to a trade agreement with European trade partners. We have been neglecting the United States file, as the Americans have put a buy American caveat in their legislation for their stimulus package. That has led to quite a bit of confusion right now and the government in question so far has stated only that it would monitor the situation and talk to people.

Yet, it has not set up a plan B. Unfortunately, a plan B is very important. Even if the government did not want to move on that particular issue right away, there should be work and at least the admittance to do that because we are not taking advantage of opportunities. There are classic examples of this.

This trade agreement is tied to the stimulus package in the sense that it is an opportunity to be able to do new and exciting things. Even if one took the minister's words to heart regarding our over-capacity, we have heard counter-evidence to that effect. The member for Thunder Bay—Rainy River has invited the minister to come up to his riding to see where ships used to be built. Even if we were at the point where we had 10 years of work, as the government chief whip said, there is nothing stopping us from increasing capacity here and developing it further.

That is important to note because it is all well within our rights, especially when we look at the current trade agreements and the fact that we are partners with the United States. A lot of the American defence procurement is done in a way that protects its workers and also its national interests by making sure its defence capabilities and manufacturing base is there. Some of the technological advancements, through many of these procurements, are very beneficial to other parts of the economy, not just the workers who are doing the work on the line or in the research and development phases, but also as it spins off into other technologies and other uses of new goods and services including materials that make up everything from computers and electronics to new types of construction elements that can be applied quite often in a civil society.

When we look at the Canadian side, we do not believe it is okay for Canada to sit back and depend upon others to manufacture some of our most important aspects to make sure we have a safe, sovereign country. The most recent glaring example has been the Navistar truck plant in Chatham, Ontario, which could have been retooled to produce a truck for our military. Instead, we are sending a quarter of a billion dollars of money down to Texas so that the Navistar facility there will have the jobs. It will have the advancement of the technology as the trucks are improved. It will also secure a number of different contracts in the future. Here, we are vulnerable to seeing our plant, which is already at a diminished capacity, firing hundreds of people and leaving for Mexico. That is sad.

We have heard the argument that we cannot do anything about it. That is absolutely nonsense and it is not true. We can have that procurement under the current trade relationship we have. No one would place blame, just like we do not blame the United States if it has particular aircraft or different types of military elements that it wants to ensure it has in its actual custody. Then, I could understand the argument regarding national security. The Americans would at least have the basis for that. We could engage them in a wider attempt to open up both of our nations for a fairer policy. However, we do not challenge that. We just surrender and run up the white flag.

Lately we have Canadians whose jobs we saved just a few years ago. The Liberals at that time said they could not do anything for Navistar in terms of retooling and training to produce a new vehicle because it would violate NAFTA and be against all the rules. There were a whole bunch of lies and misconceptions.

The government finally capitulated and a small investment went into that facility. The men and women of the Chatham and greater southern Ontario area benefited, and they paid it back into the coffers of this country quite significantly because they paid income tax and made donations to the United Way, making sure their families could stay in the municipalities and that property values did not slide. There was an opportunity for them to feel secure with their families and to send their kids to school to get an education.

Instead, what have we seen? We have seen the government, with one-quarter of a billion dollars, say that Texas can have that, and that by the way there are no rules and nothing to worry about, and that it is just going to sit back on the sidelines.

The sad thing is it is not only the years of lost production and manufacturing and the potential of new contracts that could be won by that type of very modest investment and retooling; on top of that there is the ability of the workers to have self-confidence and of the the community to continue to function in the way it has. The departure from at least engaging in that policy, or at least discussing it, is also leaving out the echo effect that would be quite viable with that type of investment in the Chatham facility. From that we would see the servicing and all the other elements of the trucks that could come from the facility if they wanted to, or we could look at some type arrangement that way.

That is why we are really upset with regard to the potential loss in the shipbuilding industry. It has been noted that Norway has set up a series of investments over a number of years for hard infrastructure that has allowed it to build up its actual capacity. That is fine. It is something Norway decided to do, but it is something we should not ignore. As New Democrats, we are not alone in being concerned about that element and about the reduction of our tariffs over a series of years, which could really undermine our ability. That is what is concerning about it, especially when we look at investors.

If we have so much work, as the minister says, although we have heard evidence counter to that, why would someone want to invest further into this country when there is the competitive advantage in Norway and we would be catching up at this time?

That concern has been expressed by others, even in the private sector. One of them has been Mary Keith, a spokeswoman for Irving Shipbuilding, who said the agreement announced Thursday “is a devastating blow for Canadian shipbuilders and marine service sectors. The Government of Canada is continuing its 12-year history of sacrificing Canadian shipbuilding and ship operators in the establishment of free trade--”

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February 2nd, 2009 / 6:25 p.m.
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Conservative

The Deputy Speaker Conservative Andrew Scheer

Order. The hon. member will have 12 minutes left in his remarks the next time this bill is debated.

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February 4th, 2009 / 3:30 p.m.
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Liberal

The Speaker Liberal Peter Milliken

When this bill was last before the House, the hon. member for Windsor West had the floor and he has 12 minutes remaining in the time allotted for his remarks.

I therefore call upon the hon. member for Windsor West.

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February 4th, 2009 / 3:30 p.m.
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NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the opportunity to rise again to speak on this very important issue, namely Bill C-2, An Act to implement the Free Trade Agreement between Canada and the States of the European Free Trade Association, in particular Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway and Switzerland.

It is important to recognize that our trade relations are very key to how we develop our sector economies, how they affect Canadian employment, and how they affect even issues of national defence and strategies related to growth industries in terms of technology and so forth.

We believe in fair trade, and one of the principal components of fair trade is to ensure that when a country that we are trading with has had a strategic advantage or has a system in place that is providing a benefit, we actually deal with that and have a plan in place for our workers and our people in Canada.

In particular, there is a problem with this trade agreement, as it currently stands, which we find very difficult. There are some issues with regard to agriculture, but in particular the hardest one is the issue of shipbuilding.

Norway has had several years, in fact over a decade, to develop and implement a strategy regarding its shipbuilding industry. What will happen in this agreement is that over a series of years we will see the phase-out of a 25% tariff that partially helped protect the shipbuilding industry, which is still struggling over here in some respects. We would like to see this as an opportunity, in terms of what is happening right now with the laws of trade that are out there, to actually rebuild our shipping industry.

It is something that should be noted. It is done in other countries. It would not create an offensive front. It would not be seen as protectionism because quite frankly, the United States, for example, under the Jones act has a protection of its procurements. As well, under its defence policies, it actually has local and domestic procurement that it controls.

We do not begrudge the United States for that. We can certainly understand the fact that it would want to maintain some of its base industrial elements that protect its national interests and national defence. It is something that is important for the United States in terms of its sovereignty and how Americans view themselves in the world, but also in terms of the workers who have good skill sets.

Value added work is very important with regard to the notation of shipbuilding. It is not a case of simply sending natural resources out of the country. It is something that actually has value added components. It is also something that is actually changing right now, with new technology, so we get those advancements in technological development clustered around the shipbuilding industry. That also includes the elements that it connects to passive shipbuilding industry as well.

I am familiar with this as well in terms of the auto sector. It has that strategy and it is a strategy at which we have not stood up and raised our fists in anger. At the same time, on the Canadian side, we have done the very least of things to protect our industries and provide the same things.

It is interesting to note because this is a big difference, especially right now with the heightened discussion of what is happening in the United States with its buy American clause, with what Canada can do and cannot do, and what the United States can and cannot do. We do not even do the base minimum that the United States would respect.

One of the most egregious situations that has now come to the public discussion forum is the fact that the government has chosen to procure $250 million worth of trucks from Texas. That is unacceptable because our trade agreement right now allows us to have defence procurement and to purchase from our own country.

Ironically, we have a facility in Chatham, Ontario, that was actually going to close a few years ago and there was government support. The then Liberals said that they could not do it, that it was against NAFTA and against everything else, and there was no way they could save this plant. We hit the streets and we worked really hard. We saved the plant and it has actually been very successful until recently. It was well worth the investment it got from the government which it paid back to the coffers, not just from the company but also more particularly from workers who have paid taxes and have been able to raise their families with some dignity and integrity and also chase the Canadian dream of having a prosperous life in this country.

Sadly, what has happened now though is that the plant is in jeopardy. Ironically, the government has decided to abandon it. There is a $250 million of work going to Texas when retooling is estimated to cost $800,000 at the Navistar truck plant in Chatham.

Let us weigh this out. For $800,000 of retooling, done by Canadian workers and a with lot of Canadian content, it would facilitate the improvements that are necessary on the truck that would make it meet the obligations of the Canadian military. It would also allow for new innovation in the plant, which is a very good plant that has been known for its quality. Prior to much of its production being sent down to Mexico from Navistar, we used to get some of the Mexican produced vehicles into Canada to fix them. The men and women are very good, adept at their skills and solid workers. We know that the quality would be of the highest calibre and I am sure that the workers in Chatham would take a lot of pride in building vehicles for our military. They would get behind this 100% and produce the best vehicles possible.

Instead of putting that $800,000 into the retooling that would have had workers paying taxes again and going forward into the future, they have decided to ship it all down to Texas. When one compares the $800,000 with the $250 million of the defence procurement contract one has to wonder where the strategy is in this government. Why does it not believe that Canadian workers are just as capable of building vehicles for our soldiers and our military infrastructure?

It would also guarantee, and this is a key element in the trade agreement that worries me, a key element of our industrial complex that is still necessary for the world that we live in. We need to have a manufacturing capacity that is going to protect our national interests. The trucks would be used for a whole series of operations. We know that if we have control over that, we could actually continue to produce those vehicles for future contracts. If other countries have an interest in the vehicle, they could come to us. Perhaps we could have a continued expansion of the facility or a continuation of the work, which would go on for nearly a couple of years.

It is really disappointing when we pull away from that opportunity, especially at a time when down in my region unemployment in the Windsor-Essex County area is at 10%. Chatham is up there as well. That those individuals would not be the men and women who would be assembling the vehicles for our country is very frustrating. We lack the visionary elements from this government to see that forward. It comes forward with plans in this budget to help Canadians put sod on their lawns, but it will not help Canadians maintain the industrial complexes that are necessary for our national security and that will benefit the overall economy. On top of that, it is going to be the cutting edge of the new development of the actual manufactured vehicles. They will be the newest and latest in the field.

This is a problem with regard to our concerns on the shipbuilding aspect. There is going to be a loss of opportunity there. It is not just us who are calling for this. I want to read a quote that shows that the New Democrats are not alone on this. A number of different shipping associations have commented on this and made objections. The president of the Shipyard General Workers' Federation of British Columbia George MacPherson states:

The Canadian shipbuilding industry is already operating at about one-third of its capacity. Canadian demand for ships over the next 15 years is estimated to be worth $9 billion in Canadian jobs. Under the FTAs with Norway, Iceland, and now planned with Korea and then Japan, these Canadian shipbuilding jobs are in serious jeopardy. In these terms, this government's plan is sheer folly and an outrage.

He gets it right because he understands that it is not just about the current capacity we have and need to protect right now. It is about making sure that we are going to continue to be able to reap the rewards of the investment that we have done before.

When I was part of the industry committee, we had over 20 recommendations regarding the manufacturing sector. One of the things that has been moderately positive with regards to the budget is that we came forward with a policy on the issue of a capital cost reduction allowance for machinery and tools. It was supposed to be a five-year policy. First, the government had a position of doing it for a two year period. Now, it is proposing to do it for a three year period, so it has the accumulation of the five years. Unfortunately, not having it done properly through a one five year period undermines the planning necessary for the capital cost reductions on some of the more expensive and thought-out equipment changes that will be necessary in the future.

It is a modest step forward, and it is something that we certainly support. At the same time, it also provides some of the elements that are necessary for the actual procurement of additional capacity that could be important for our shipbuilding industry. We should not simply be relying on the hope of having our yards filled right now. We would like to see expansion.

In this economic downturn it is easy to use elements like this as a way to have procurement, especially when we look at some of the defence contracting that needs to be done. The budget notes that there is going to be $175 million allocated for a number of different craft. Small craft are going to be built and we hope that they will be done in our own shipyards. The proper policy is needed to do that. That is what worries me. It is why the example of Navistar with regard to the trucks being built in Texas instead of Chatham, Ontario is disturbing. That $175 million contract could be awarded in several different ways for procurement in South Korea, Norway or the United States, all of those things. As we go through trade agreements like this we have to be very careful of the details.

One element I would like to touch on is that the past Liberal government thought it had it right when it brought in the free trade agreement and other trade agreements after signing the auto pact. The auto pact made us one of the strongest auto manufacturers in the world, but when we brought in the other trade agreements the auto pact was killed, despite the government of the day arguing that we would stand up and would be able to have it. Since that time our auto industry has crumbled around us as others have decided to move forward.

I hope that is a lesson we keep in mind. We should vote this down and vote for Canadian action instead.

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February 4th, 2009 / 3:40 p.m.
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NDP

Claude Gravelle NDP Nickel Belt, ON

Mr. Speaker, Bill C-55 not only affects shipbuilding bit it also affects many other areas in Canada.

Destructive legacies, such as the softwood lumber sellout have eroded our confidence in the ability of the government to defend the best interests of Canada through trade agreements.

There is a lot of agriculture in Nickel Belt, especially in the Verner area. The NFU is concerned about this agreement because the provisions within the agreement concerning agriculture defer to the World Trade Organization dispute settlement mechanism which will have a very negative impact on supply management by weakening Canada's position.

What could the government do to improve this bill as it relates to agriculture?

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February 4th, 2009 / 3:40 p.m.
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NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

The hon. member for Nickel Belt is absolutely correct. It is important to note that Terry Pugh, executive secretary of the National Farmers Union, has identified the concerns that if we actually had to bring the agriculture component forward in the bill potentially under the WTO we could get a challenge with regard to supply management.

Even though agriculture and auto do not often meet up together, they are a good example here. I referred to what happened with regard to the auto pact and I think the concerns are there. It was the WTO on a challenge from Japan which eventually killed our auto pact.

Our auto industry was fourth in the world in assembly and it has gone down to ninth and is falling even further back. Despite the challenges we are facing, it is important to recognize that other things are developing in the industry. General Motors, for example, is bringing out the first plug-in electric vehicle in Detroit, Michigan. It has just bought South Korean technology to bring its battery system on line for that vehicle. That is because the U.S. has set aside a $25 billion investment strategy of low interest loans.

Despite the challenges for the auto sector, and we have seen plants go down here in Canada, the United States is actually increasing plant production on certain measures. That is a good example of the environment being connected.

It is really important. The government today does not worry too much about that. At the time, trade minister Pierre Pettigrew downplayed the WTO decision originally with regard to the auto pact. That is traditionally what governments of the day do. They downplay decisions as they work themselves through the court system and at the same time it undermines our ability to control our own destiny.

It is a warning sign. It is something that is very important. It is also one that sets a good example for the concerns expressed in the agriculture sector about this bill.

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February 4th, 2009 / 3:45 p.m.
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NDP

Megan Leslie NDP Halifax, NS

Mr. Speaker, in listening to the member's presentation, I thought about my home riding of Halifax where shipbuilding is a huge issue.

Canada has no strategy for shipbuilding and it sounds as though there is no strategy for the auto industry in Canada and no strategy for getting trucks built in our country. I think the problem is beyond the EFTA. Our country lacks a comprehensive industrial strategy. The EFTA is just another example of a piecemeal approach to trade deals. There is no coherent fair trade vision or policy. There is no industrial strategy.

What are the member's thoughts about the bigger issue of Canada's lack of an industrial policy as it relates to the EFTA?

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February 4th, 2009 / 3:45 p.m.
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NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

Mr. Speaker, I have had the opportunity to tour the Halifax shipyards and talk to the workers and management there. There is a strong confidence element involved there in that the people there feel that they could be part of something bigger. They feel that they could be a part of the future of procurement for Canada, whether it be for the military or the coast guard. That is what they would like to do. It is not only about having a job. It is about having pride in a country that can produce the goods necessary for us to defend ourselves and also serve our citizens. There is a natural connection that needs to be recognized. It instills a nation's sentiments.

It is sad that we do not have that policy in Canada. It is sad that we do not have the necessary overall sectoral strategies.

Other countries are doing it. There is an interest to get into Canada. Other countries know that we could be vulnerable to competition because they have had so much support in the past. Norway is the example. Norway implemented a plan and developed significant shipbuilding facilities and capacity. The important thing is that Norway had a head start. It is difficult in a 100 yard dash to catch up with one's competitor who is already 50 yards ahead. That is what we are talking about. We want to see a fair race in many respects.

It is important for Canada to recognize that there are other stimuli packages out there. We are not talking about adding other layers of protectionism. We are talking about using the tools that we have available in this country. European countries, the United States and Japan use the models of their economy within their trade agreements to expand their services and capabilities.

It is an exciting time right now with the greening of many of the different types of technologies. Even though we face deep challenges, our opportunities are great. We can see a lot cleaner, a lot leaner, and more important, a stronger connection between the lifestyles that we lead and the environmental footprint that we leave behind.

This is a great opportunity to build on sectoral strategies. That is why I would like to see the government take this opportunity to heart and move forward. Sadly, we are still moving backward. We cannot be a nation that just supplies raw resources to the rest of the world.

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February 4th, 2009 / 3:50 p.m.
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NDP

Malcolm Allen NDP Welland, ON

Mr. Speaker, I would like the member for Windsor West to address the impact of the Navistar truck contract on his community and surrounding area, because not all those folks actually live in Chatham. When a situation of that magnitude impacts a city, a county and a community, it is a shame that we did not rectify it when we had the opportunity. As the hon. member said, a $250 million contract for trucks for our armed forces being built in Texas rather than Ontario just does not seem to work out well.

The member's riding is in Windsor, which is in close proximity geographically to Chatham. I would like him to comment on what happens to a community when it loses hundreds of well-paying jobs. What happens to United Way organizations in those communities? What happens to the non-profit organizations in those communities? What happens to the kids who want to play hockey or ringette or gymnastics whose parents no longer have the ability to fund those activities?

Perhaps my hon. colleague could comment on that.

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February 4th, 2009 / 3:50 p.m.
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NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

Mr. Speaker, it is important to make that correlation because there is a spiralling effect that really brings down other elements of the economy, everything from the person who operates a small business and provides food services to those who want to invest in the area and look to clustering around a major manufacturing facility. It also hurts the social infrastructure, be it the United Way or other charitable groups. The CAW and other types of philanthropy is taking place because of that economic activity.

This really hurts on a psychological level in the sense that what the government has said to the workers of Chatham and Kent area is that it wants to have our trucks for our military built in Texas. It seems they are not good enough in Chatham and area for the $800,000 retooling. That is all that is necessary, a small pittance. It is all the jobs too that would be done by the people of our own country, many of whom are laid off right now. The government has said to those people that they are not going to be the ones to build the trucks for our men and women who are serving this nation. That really hurts them. I have talked to them and that is how they feel. It is sad because it could be different.

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February 4th, 2009 / 3:50 p.m.
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Liberal

Michael Savage Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to have the opportunity to speak to this bill. I have concerns about this bill for a specific reason, as I will explain.

A number of my colleagues on the Liberal side, in particular my friend the hon. member for Halifax West, have worked very hard on this as well. We are prepared to support the movement of this bill to committee, where it can be examined and studied and where we hope some positive work might come out as a result.

I support freer trade, in general, and I suspect many industries and suppliers would benefit from this bill, perhaps some even in my own region. However, the issue for me is clear, and it has been talked about before. It is the issue of the shipbuilding industry.

I come from Nova Scotia, a province with a proud tradition of shipbuilding. We are a world leader, in fact. Today we still have a shipbuilding industry. It is a proud one and an effective one, but one that has not been supported as it should have been, and not in the way that some other countries have done, in particular Norway, which is one of the four countries in the EFTA deal. This deal is with those four countries: Liechtenstein, Switzerland, Iceland and Norway.

Norway is the tricky one. I want to be very clear. Norway is a great friend of Canada and Norway is a great friend to the world. Norway is a successful nation that takes care of its citizens. It is also a world leader in assisting others. In fact, I admire Norway. It is wholly admirable as a world leader. From 2001 to 2006, it was number one in the human development index. In 2007, it was actually chosen as the most peaceful nation on earth.

In fact, in terms of overseas development assistance, Norway contributes about the same level of total dollars to overseas development assistance as Canada, the difference being that Norway has a population of less than five million people and Canada has more than thirty million.

In terms of hitting millennium development goals, Norway is far ahead of us. Its ODA contribution, its percentage of GNI, is 0.95%, while ours is 0.29% and has dropped.

Norway is a nation with which we should do business. I admire the principles on which it governs its citizens and governs itself in the world.

Canada and Norway are long-time friends. In fact, in my own constituency, one of my favourite events commemorates this friendship between Canada and Norway. The event is the Convoy Cup. It is the brainchild of one of our most remarkable citizens, Steiner Engeset, Norwegian consul to Nova Scotia.

The Convoy Cup honours those who served in World War II escorting merchant ships and naval vessels from North America to war-torn Europe. This critical function played a major role in the eventual outcome of World War II.

Following the invasion of Norway by Nazi Germany in 1940, members of the Royal Norwegian Army and Royal Norwegian Navy maintained training and repair bases in Nova Scotia. The Convoy Cup commemorates this close relationship between the two countries. I am proud that the Dartmouth Yacht Club in my own riding is the club of record for the Convoy Cup. I know other members from this House--the member for Sackville—Eastern Shore, the member for Halifax West, perhaps the new member for Halifax, and certainly her predecessor--would share my enjoyment of the Convoy Cup and would share my admiration and that of many others, including my late father, of Steiner Engeset.

My concern with this bill is not primarily because I am opposed to Norway's subsidization and management of its shipbuilding industry; it is because we have not done enough to support our own. We have a shipbuilding caucus in Parliament, to which I proudly belong. We have heard at that caucus from just about everybody in the shipbuilding industry, and they have also appeared before various parliamentary committees.

What is remarkable about this industry is that both management and labour are very much aligned as to the solutions for a way forward for shipbuilding. This is not an industry in which management is saying one thing and labour is saying something entirely different. That is why I and other members from this House, including the member for Halifax , the member for Halifax West and the member for Sackville—Eastern Shore, welcomed the announcement in December by the Minister of Defence, when he said shipbuilding should be part of a stimulus plan. However, we were perplexed when he also suggested that shipbuilders and trade unions should set aside their differences. In fact, I have been in numerous meetings at which shipbuilders and trade union representatives have come together, presented together and identified strategies for the industry together.

The minister indicated the government had done its homework by examining how other shipbuilding nations had found success. He even cited Norway as an example. We are not Norway; we have not protected our industry or promoted it as Norway has or as other nations have.

We know about the Jones act and the Merchant Marine Act of the 1920s in the United States, in which the United States actually carves out shipbuilding and treats it specifically in trade agreements.

It is a tricky bill. It is a very tricky bill for my colleague, the member for Halifax West, for these reasons.

I meet regularly, as does he and as do other members, with marine workers such as Les Holloway, Karl Risser, Gerard Bradbury and others in Nova Scotia. I trust and value their views and I consistently agree with them.

I also meet with shipbuilding companies and executives who know how to build a shipbuilding strategy, and I have spoken to MPs, to ministers and to bureaucrats on a number of occasions.

I recognize the frustration of those who are concerned that we are not as vigilant as other countries in promoting our industry. This is not about ability or competitive spirit; our industry has those things.

A few weeks ago local Halifax-area MPs issued a release in which we called on the minister to follow through on his pledge to make shipbuilding part of the stimulus package.

In that release I said the following:

Shipbuilding is still an important industry in Canada, an industry in which labour and management have worked together to provide options for action in these uncertain times. We call upon the government to come to the table and make shipbuilding part of the stimulus package as they have previously said they would.

In December Karl Risser himself spoke to the historic role of shipbuilding in Nova Scotia, the quality of our work, the great tradition of the industry and our potential for the future when he said:

We have the people, technology, the will and the skill to see it continue.

There are many aspects to this trade deal. Many could be positive for the country and could be positive for our region, but there is work that must be done.

Our critic, the member for Kings—Hants, is aware of these concerns. He spoke to this bill on Monday in the House when he said:

We need a comprehensive shipbuilding policy in this country, one that actually helps build a world-class shipbuilding industry that can compete and succeed. We can do a number of things in terms of our industrial strategy and policy to make this happen. As the government deals with the EFTA, I think it also has to ensure that some of these industrial policy issues are addressed, and we as the official opposition will hold the government to account on that.

I am proud to be a member of Parliament for a shipbuilding region and certainly will not abandon the cause. I am also in support of fair trade and, in most cases, free trade.

I will support sending this bill to committee and at committee I look forward to hearing from those who know this industry best. Hopefully we will work to create a national shipbuilding strategy that will rival those with whom we compete and those with whom we trade.

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February 4th, 2009 / 4 p.m.
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NDP

Megan Leslie NDP Halifax, NS

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague from Nova Scotia for his words and in particular for talking about our historical relationship with Norway and the Convoy Cup. As a member of the Scandinavian Society back home, I know it is a really exciting event for us.

I was hoping that the member could actually comment on the decline of the shipbuilding industry in Canada, and in particular the impact it has had on his riding of Dartmouth--Cole Harbour, which is a neighbour to my riding of Halifax.

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February 4th, 2009 / 4 p.m.
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Liberal

Michael Savage Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

Mr. Speaker, I know that my colleague's commitment is for the shipbuilding industry. It is a big part of our shared community. It is a big issue for me in my community. I do not think we have done enough to protect shipbuilding.

There have been some ministers in the past who met regularly with industry and with labour, ministers who had a vision for shipbuilding in Canada. I am thinking of the Hon. Brian Tobin.

This EFTA bill came up some years ago. It is not brand new to the House. A lot of people, including a lot of people from our party, have expressed concern about whether this specific bill should go forward without a comprehensive shipbuilding strategy as part of it.

What can we do? There are a number of things we can do. First of all, we need to accept that there needs to be a national shipbuilding strategy that includes things like buying Canadian. The industry has indicated there may be a direct allocation component to our shipbuilding strategy, which would provide for more stability in the labour force and also in business. The structured facility financing with the accelerated capital cost allowance being simultaneously applied is another piece.

We have a lot of work to do. It bothers me when people suggest that this is a dying industry. We cannot say that in a place like Nova Scotia. Nova Scotia was a world leader in building ships. It is part of our tradition and part of our heritage.

We have the technology. This is a modern industry. We have everything we need to make this a viable part of our national industrial strategy. We just need to accept that we need a specific shipbuilding strategy for the country.

There are answers. As I said before, the people who run the companies and the people who work in the companies share a common view as to how we go forward. They have talked about it before. We do not need anything new. We have the answers. We just need to be serious and not make promises about being part of stimulus or about what it might be. We just need to actually have some action and movement forward.

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February 4th, 2009 / 4 p.m.
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Liberal

John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON

Mr. Speaker, I want to thank the hon. member for his speech. It was a thoughtful speech and one that offers a way out of somewhat of a dilemma.

It seems to me that many in the House are in favour of free trade. They speak in favour of free trade and then they say that this and that industry have to be exempted, so free trade becomes something less than free trade, and after a while we have no trade at all.

That position seemed to be admirably advocated by the leader of the NDP in the last couple of days, when he was complaining about the attitude of the U.S. Congress and its “buy American” policy, while at the same time advocating the “buy Canadian” policy on infrastructure.

The hon. member made reference to an industrial strategy that would make the shipbuilding industry a competitive and viable industry. Is this a free trade exception, or is this free trade in which we can have both free trade and a viable industry?

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February 4th, 2009 / 4:05 p.m.
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Liberal

Michael Savage Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

Mr. Speaker, if the hon. member asked me right now what my preference would be, I am very concerned about a free trade deal, but as Liberals we support free trade. However, it has to be fair trade as well.

With regard to exceptions to trade arrangements, people consider the United States to be the great free trader of the world, but it has carved out shipbuilding since 1920. The United States takes care of its industry.

Norway has subsidized the industry for many years. They will not stop doing that because they have a free trade agreement with Canada.

We can have free trade, but it is only normal to have some exceptions. I also think that the bottom line is that we do need a shipbuilding strategy for Canada. We need to look at the structured facility financing and the accelerated capital cost allowance being put together to help the industry. We need to have a buy Canadian plan, just as the United States has a buy American plan in some industries.

We need a strategy first, and then we need to look at the deal and the impact the strategy would have on the deal. Whatever happens, Canada needs and has a remarkable level of integration, in my view, between management and labour.

Canada needs a strategy. It is out there. It is possible for us to find it, to come up with a solution and to move forward in a way that not only protects but enhances our shipbuilding and gets us back to the levels of employment we have seen in years past.

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February 4th, 2009 / 4:05 p.m.
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Liberal

The Speaker Liberal Peter Milliken

Questions and comments. The hon. member for West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country.

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February 4th, 2009 / 4:05 p.m.
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Conservative

John Weston Conservative West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC

Mr. Speaker, thank you for saying the name of the riding, because if I did, I would use up all my speaking time.

I listened with considerable interest to the last several speeches. Certainly the plight of the workers in this industry is one we should all care about.

However, I would like to ask the Liberal member opposite who just gave his speech to reply to a question. We have heard his colleagues chiding the government for not dealing with the “buy American ” policy that could result in the loss of Canadian jobs. As he advocates a “buy Canadian” policy, how does he rationalize that position with the need for us not to spark trade wars that would hurt not only Canadians but also our trading partner friends?

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February 4th, 2009 / 4:05 p.m.
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Liberal

Michael Savage Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

Mr. Speaker, when I talk about a buy Canadian policy, it is not with specific reference to any trade deal. If we need coast guard vessels or frigates or anything similar that can be made in Canada, it just makes sense that as a Canadian government we would look first to the Canadian industry to do it.

I am not suggesting we should enter a deal and say no to everything right up front. I just think it makes sense. When the hon. member and his colleagues were on the opposite side of the House, they used to raise these same questions about doing or not doing this or that to protect the industry.

When we need vessels, I think it makes eminent sense for us to say that. For security reasons, most nations have specific regulations about shipbuilding and would like to have the shipbuilding done on their home soil. That approach only makes sense. There are all kinds of reasons to look at a buy Canadian policy.

The United States has the most rigorous controls over its shipbuilding industry, in the form of the Jones act. It carves it out so it cannot be hurt by trade deals.

Whether it is fair trade or free trade, we need to go forward. The world is getting smaller. We need to do more, but we also need to make sure we protect Canadians workers here at home.

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February 4th, 2009 / 4:05 p.m.
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NDP

Carol Hughes NDP Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON

Mr. Speaker, could the member differentiate between free trade and fair trade? We have seen what happened with the softwood lumber industry and now the impact on our jobs here in Canada. Yesterday, Tembec announced that it would be laying off about 1,500 more workers. We do not disagree that there needs to be a fair trade agreement. The problem is that the free trade agreements have not been working in our favour.

We need to look at what we are doing with regard to our shipbuilding. If we want to promote a buy in Canada procurement policy or program, how can we do that if we are not building our ships or similar products here in Canada? Will the member acknowledge that the Canada-U.S. Free Trade Agreement with regard to the softwood lumber certainly was not to our benefit at this point in time given the fact that we are losing a lot of our mills? Would he not be supportive of carving the shipbuilding out of this agreement we are talking about today?

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February 4th, 2009 / 4:10 p.m.
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Liberal

Michael Savage Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

Mr. Speaker, no matter what happens to the EFTA deal, our first priority is to have a national shipbuilding strategy. We need to get everyone at the table, especially the people who run the companies and , the people who work in the companies, and anyone else we need to get at the table. That is the first and most important thing.

Will we have a national shipbuilding strategy by the time this bill comes back for a final vote? I do not think we will but we need to make some serious strides toward getting this done. It is really important for this industry which means a lot in my area and in other areas of the country.

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February 4th, 2009 / 4:20 p.m.
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NDP

Megan Leslie NDP Halifax, NS

Mr. Speaker, thank you for allowing me to speak to Bill C-2, the enabling legislation of the Canada EFTA trade agreement, signed on January 26, 2008, by the government. This enabling legislation is something of the utmost importance to my riding and the country as a whole.

I would like to begin by quoting a question, “I'd love to see someone answer the question, what is Canada going to get out of this agreement?” Those are the words of Mr. Karl Risser, union president of the Halifax shipyard and a constituent of mine when he appeared before the Standing Committee on International Trade in April of last year. They are words we should be asking ourselves whenever we are considering international trade agreements.

Ships are a part of my family's past, as they settled on the shores of Georgian Bay when they came to Canada. My grandfather, Allan Leslie, worked on a steamer called the SS Caribou to pay his way through university. When I was little, we used to go down to the grain elevators to have a good look at whatever freighter was docked. My grandfather talked about what a blow it was to the area when the Collingwood shipyards closed. Half the jobs in the area were lost and the economy suffered greatly.

This trends continues across the country, leaving us with the limited shipyards we see today. Despite having the largest coastline in the world, Canada has no strategy for the shipyard building industry and the neglect of this industry makes it vulnerable.

Now, as the member for Halifax, I represent a place with even stronger roots in shipbuilding, and the great work of this sector continues today. We can be proud of our strong traditions in this area, from the construction of wooden sailing ships in the 19th century to the establishment of our powerful navy in the 20th. Through it all, Halifax has been a central force in that development.

However, as my colleagues, the members for Sackville—Eastern Shore and Burnaby—New Westminster and others, have pointed out during this debate, we have deep concerns about the impact of trade deals and, in particular with the bill, their impact on the shipbuilding industry.

Speaking with workers down at the Halifax shipyards recently, I heard about the need for targeted investment in the shipbuilding industry as part of an economic stimulus plan. With the government's plan to construct new joint supply ships and Coast Guard vessels delayed, workers are left hanging. While the shipyard there presently employs 400 to 500 people, that number could rise to 1,000 or more if it were working at full capacity. Those are good paying jobs. It has been noted that one shipbuilding job created creates about four spin-off jobs. The economic benefits of a strong shipbuilding industry are obvious.

Unfortunately, the government has no industrial strategy. Whether it is forestry or manufacturing, our industries are being hindered by the lack of vision for a sustainable and prosperous economic future. In my consultations for the budget, constituents made it very clear that investment in shipbuilding was a priority. The government's budget may promise of a $49 million investment over two years to the industry, but there is worry that much of that will go to small craft and perhaps to repairing larger ships that will continue to be built elsewhere.

That is hardly the kind of stimulus that the members in my community were hoping for. My constituents wrote to me in my call for budget submissions. They called for investments in the green economy of the future. They called for housing and EI reform. However, they also wrote to me about shipbuilding. I would like to share some of those today.

Bob Cameron, a constituent in my riding, wrote to me:

In reply to your request for budget items, I would like to suggest that with the need to replace aging destroyers our shipbuilding industry could certainly use at least one to be built in the Halifax metro area.

Leslie Pezzack wrote:

First I want you to know how pleased I was to see in The Chronicle Herald, you along with Liberal, Independent and Provincial NDP together supporting local shipbuilding.

Sally Hodgson, who is not from my riding but from Dartmouth, felt compelled to write in, and I will share these comments with my colleague for Dartmouth—Cole Harbour. She wrote:

We have been learning that both the Naval Fleet and the Coast Guard/Department of Fisheries fleets are again aging and there is need to replace several vessels. Also the cost of maintaining these older vessels is becoming prohibitive. The other part of the consideration is the inability of the Canadian Ship Yards to handle this type of work because they cannot obtain and retain the necessary skilled personnel due to the Spike nature of equipment acquisition programs.

This long term program also has to be viewed as obtaining and maintaining a “Strategic” resource. We have basically three choices of shipyard: Vancouver or Victoria, Lauzon, Quebec and Halifax. These yards should be told to build a ship a year and their instructions as to what to build will be given in January of each year.

These were responses to a call for submissions about people wanted to see in a budget.

I was not asking, specifically, for shipbuilding feedback, yet I received so much of it. It is clear that this is an important issue to Halifax. I would like to point out what Paul Ellis from my riding wrote. He wrote:

Being from Halifax, I feel that shipbuilding requires a boost. We have the means but not the work.... Please vote for the people...

In the budget consultations, I had the opportunity to take Tim Bousquet, the news editor of The Coast, a Halifax weekly newspaper, around on an economic stimulus tour of the riding. We stopped by shovel ready projects in the riding that were waiting for federal investment.

I would like to read from the article he wrote in The Coast, which states:

From there, we go to the Halifax Shipyard and speak with Karl Risser, union president at the yard.

There are unfunded plans for two "joint supply" naval ships, four Arctic patrol vessels and 12 smaller coastal patrol vessels, says Risser. “All we have to do is get that work on the ground. We start building ships, all of a sudden we can say to our workers, 'We're not going to employ you for three months, lay you off for a month, employ you for three months, lay you off for a month.'”

Many of the laid-off went to find temporary work in Alberta to hold them over the lean times, but that work too has dried up. Presently, there are 400 to 500 people employed at the yard, but contracts for just two Arctic Patrol vessels would bring the yard to full capacity, with 1,000 workers, says Risser.

While shipbuilding was failed by the budget, we are standing in this honourable House debating enabling legislation that, if passed, will fail this industry again.

We have seen the shipbuilding industry fade due to lack of investment from consecutive Liberal and Conservative governments. It is clear that this industry is facing hard times, and much of that is due to unfair trade deals that pitted our shipbuilders against those in other countries where the production was subsidized. A 25% tariff is all that protected our industry from being erased entirely. Now, this otherwise innocuous trade change could be the final blow for this struggling industry. Workers and their families in my riding deserve more.

To return to Mr. Risser's testimony before the committee last April, he testified that:

—this EFTA deal is a bad deal for Canada. I'd love to see someone answer the question, what is Canada going to get out of this agreement? I know we're going to destroy our shipbuilding industry, a multi-billion-dollar industry in Canada. It's on its last legs now and needs a real boost. We have that opportunity in front of us, but whether we take it or not is the question.

The hasty signing of this trade deal would unfairly disadvantage workers in my riding and across Canada. For this reason, I must voice my opposition. However, there is a very simple solution before us. The NDP is calling for shipbuilding to be removed from the trade agreement and for the government, instead, to invest in the industry to increase its competitiveness. It is a simple solution that could save our shipbuilding industry and hundreds of jobs in Halifax and elsewhere.

I ask that other parliamentarians to join us to ensure that trade deals like the EFTA are fair to both partners.

Just yesterday, I met with Bernie MacDougall and Jack Ferguson, two dairy farmers from Nova Scotia who are concerned about their industry and how the WTO negotiations would impact the production of Nova Scotian dairy products. Not often do we see dairy and shipbuilding linked in the House of Commons, but their question was, “What will Doha negotiations do for Canada? What will it do to support our dairy industry?” It is a different industry, but it is the same questions and it is the same demand for fairness in trade negotiations.

While there are no dairy farms in my riding, the people of Halifax pride themselves on being able to buy locally and support Nova Scotian agriculture.

When the subject of the EFTA came up while I was meeting with the dairy farmers, the farmers noted that the impact of the EFTA on shipbuilding is similar to the situation that they face regarding trade in the dairy industry. They also acknowledged the importance of the shipbuilding industry as part of a strong Nova Scotian economy and they said that they hoped it worked out for those shipbuilders because those were good jobs, and if they were employed, they would benefit.

I reiterate, one shipbuilding job creates about four spinoff jobs.

Once again, it shows that folks on the ground producing goods and working in the real economy understand what a fair deal is. It seems the government has not come to the same understanding.

It brings us back to the question of what Canada is going to get out of this agreement.

As my colleagues have pointed out over the course of this debate, EFTA has some merits, but let us carve out shipbuilding until it can fairly compete with subsidized European shipyards.

This has been the testimony of witnesses who have testified before the international trade committee. There are simple solutions. These are some of the solutions that were proposed.

Andrew McArthur from the Shipbuilding Association of Canada and Irving Shipbuilding Inc. testified:

So our position from day one has been that shipbuilding should be carved out from the trade agreement. We butted our heads against a brick wall for quite a number of years on that and we were told there is no carve-out. If the Americans, under the Jones Act, can carve out shipbuilding from NAFTA and other free trade agreements, as I believe the Americans are doing today with Korea, or have done, why can Canada not do the same?

We have to do something to ensure shipbuilding continues. The easiest thing is to carve it out from EFTA. And if you do one thing, convince your colleagues in government to extend the ship financing facility, make it available to Canadian owners in combination with the accelerated capital cost allowance, and you will have as vibrant an industry as exists.

Even those who are from the business community and who have a vested interest in actually accelerating the implementation of the EFTA, such as the Canadian Shipowners Association, justify their support on the basis that Canada has forever lost its ability to build ships.

We do not share its pessimism. With proper and intelligent support from the federal government, Canada's domestic shipbuilding industry could be rapidly up and running, as Karl Risser has testified and said repeatedly to media and to government. All that is missing is the political will of the government.

The U.S. has always refused to repeal the Jones act, the legislation that has been in place since 1920 and that protects the U.S. capacity to produce commercial ships. The Jones act requires that commerce between U.S. ports on the inland and intracoastal waterways be reserved for vessels that are U.S. built, U.S. owned, registered under U.S. law and U.S. manned.

The U.S. has also refused to include shipbuilding under NAFTA and has implemented in recent years a heavily subsidized naval reconstruction program. Why are we not doing that here in Canada? Why are we not learning from both the mistakes and successes of other parties?

While we are learning from the successes of other parties, I would like to bring up the case study of Norway.

During the last 20 years, Norway, Canada's EFTA main competitor in this sector, has built a strong shipbuilding industry by initially protecting its market and heavily subsidizing production. Now Norway is actually able to compete in a zero tariff environment, something that Canadian industry is not currently able to do.

During all that time Canada had kept a 25% tariff on ship imports, but without a shipbuilding policy of any kind and no money to support the industry, something for which my friend from Dartmouth—Cole Harbour recently called.

The so-called generous 10 to 15 years phase-out term simply means a stay of execution for Canada's shipbuilding industry. It is precisely this type of policy that allowed Norway to become the world-class player it is today, and it is precisely what the federal government has failed to do by completely gutting Canada's shipbuilding industry.

When we talk about business being an unlikely supporter, because it does want to fast track the benefits of the EFTA, we can point to Mary Keith, who is the spokeswoman for Irving Shipbuilding Inc. This is a situation where labour and industry are on the same page, singing from the same fire book so to speak.

Ms. Keith was quoted in the Chronicle Herald, my local paper, as saying:

Canadian shipbuilders and marine service operations should be carved out from the agreements in the same way that the Jones Act carves out U.S. shipbuilding and marine operations from NAFTA and in the same way that Canadian agriculture is protected. We have been advised that this will not be done. The future of skilled Canadian workers and the communities where they live is being traded away by our own federal government.

We have lost workers at the Halifax shipyards to the west. I do not begrudge the west for the work that it is doing, but our workers are skilled specifically in shipbuilding. They are taking whatever jobs they can because they know those jobs will be for the long term, or at least for the medium term, whereas in Halifax with shipbuilding we get a little contract here, a little contract there. There is absolutely no security. I do not blame those workers for leaving, but they have skills and talent that they can bring to this industry.

Earlier I talked about meeting with the dairy farmers and how it was a bit of an unlikely allegiance between farming and shipbuilding in this situation. I would like to read a quote from Terry Pugh, the executive secretary of the National Farmers Union. He also testified before the standing committee and brought a new perspective to this issue from the perspective of farming. He said before the committee:

But the most critical and highly negative aspect of this deal, from our point of view, is its impact on supply management, for example, in the dairy industry. It's true that our access commitments remain in place for imports of certain commodities, as specified under the WTO agreement, but the tariff rates on some of those imports have been dramatically lowered, some of them to the point of elimination entirely.

It's good when the tariff rates on our exports are reduced. It's another matter when we see tariff rates on imports of dairy products, for example, coming into Canada reduced.... I think the Ag Canada representative, in early March, pointed out that, for example, on butter, under 4,000 tonnes of butter coming into Canada, which is our access quota, right now under the WTO--that's a 7% tariff. Under this deal, that 7% goes down to 0%. That is, without a doubt, a tariff cut from 7% down to 0%. The amount that's coming in stays the same, but the tariff rate is actually reduced.

That is a key point, because what that does is effectively facilitate access to the Canadian market for imports of dairy products. We have to keep in mind that the more we open up our market to imports, the more we shut out Canadian producers from their own domestic market. As I pointed out, that cut from 7% to 0% for some dairy products coming in is definitely a cut in tariff rates.

This is exactly what the Dairy Farmers of Nova Scotia came to talk to me about yesterday.

We have an opportunity to learn from the shortfalls of previous trade agreements. I urge all members of the House to join the New Democrats in opposing this bill as it stands to ensure that Canada's shipbuilders get something out of this agreement.

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February 4th, 2009 / 4:35 p.m.
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Conservative

Paul Calandra Conservative Oak Ridges—Markham, ON

Mr. Speaker, I note that the NDP members have voted against all of the investments in the armed forces since we have been in government, so I am gratified today to hear that the hon. member and her party are very supportive of some of the investments that we are making in our brave men and women in the armed forces.

I wonder if the member would agree that Canadian workers and businesses are among the best in the world and able to compete with anyone in the world. The best way in which to protect jobs and in fact create new jobs is to open up markets so that our businesses can sell their products around the world. When we do that, they will be able to do it better and more productively. This agreement will create more jobs. It will help protect Canadian industry and in the long run will be better for Canadian business.

I wonder if the member could comment on that.

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February 4th, 2009 / 4:40 p.m.
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NDP

Megan Leslie NDP Halifax, NS

Mr. Speaker, while I very much believe in the Canadian shipbuilding industry and in our ability to compete, I would like to point out to the member that other countries support their industries.

I would like to draw attention to Norway as an example on this issue. First of all, in Canada we are not operating anywhere near our maximum capacity. That is because we lack support from the federal government. Unlike Canada, Norway has actually used its period of tariff protection to heavily invest in and expand its shipbuilding industry, making it competitive and efficient. That is what has not been happening in Canada.

Norway was actually able to phase out its government subsidies by 2000. Because the shipbuilding industry has been worn away here for so long by a lack of interest by the federal government, by the time the tariffs are dropped in 15 years, if no aggressive policy is put in place, there will be very little left in Canada other than foreign shipbuilding firms.

I actually disagree with the member. I think it is time for us to have an industrial strategy all around and that industrial strategy should include making firm investments in shipbuilding because the industry is hurting, my riding is hurting and the workers are hurting.

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February 4th, 2009 / 4:40 p.m.
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Liberal

Michael Savage Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

Mr. Speaker, allow me to commend my colleague from Nova Scotia on her speech. I must say that she conducts herself very well as a member of Parliament. In spite of the fact that I hope the Liberals win in Halifax next time, I think she is doing a very good job as a member of Parliament.

She was part of a press conference that we held just before Christmas. There were two Liberal members, two NDP members and also the independent member for Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley. We called upon the federal government to follow through on a commitment it made to make shipbuilding part of a stimulus package.

One of the issues with shipbuilding is that it cannot just ramp up and ramp down, as she and others have mentioned, as we lose our skilled workers to other parts of the country. We just cannot run an industry by ramping it up and ramping it down. That is why things like direct allocation of contracts and having a national shipbuilding strategy are so important.

After having that press conference about shipbuilding being part of a stimulus package, as the Minister of National Defence indicated it would be just before Christmas, how does she think that shipbuilding did in the recent budget?

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February 4th, 2009 / 4:40 p.m.
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NDP

Megan Leslie NDP Halifax, NS

Mr. Speaker, I thank the member for Dartmouth—Cole Harbour for his question and for his kind words. And I am hopeful that an NDP member will take the seat in Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, but until then the hon. member is doing a fine job in the House of Commons. It is nice to see him here.

That was one chilly press conference. There we were at the harbour in Halifax. It was -20° with the wind chill, although I know that is nothing compared to Ottawa. We were out there with the workers. We came together for a non-partisan press conference to say that we need to invest in shipbuilding in the budget. The workers were there with their flags. They rallied around us. It was quite an optimistic moment.

Then the budget came out. While there is a line for shipbuilding in the budget, and if we do scan, it does pop up, it is simply not enough. It seems to be only for small craft, which would mean about six months of contract work. There is some money in there for repairs, but generally that is repair of vessels that are built in other countries.

When I talked to the locals at the shipyard, they said that the problem with these short-term contracts is that we cannot lure our workers back home. Sure, it is six months' worth of work, but will people actually come back home so that they can work for six months and then be out of a job?

We need a long-term strategy and the budget absolutely fails the shipbuilding industry. I am proud to say that is why I voted against it.

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February 4th, 2009 / 4:45 p.m.
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NDP

Tony Martin NDP Sault Ste. Marie, ON

Mr. Speaker, I commend the hon. member on her speech. She certainly speaks to something about which we all have concerns, and that is how we protect the traditional industries of this country and the jobs that they provide to our communities.

I remember being in New Brunswick in 1987 and visiting the shipyards in Saint John. I remember seeing the Algoma Steel stamp on big sheets of steel that had come from my own city. In seeing that I understood the interconnectedness between these industries.

When we build ships in Nova Scotia, we provide an opportunity for a steel mill in Sault Ste. Marie or Hamilton to sell its product and that provides jobs in those communities. Shipbuilding in Nova Scotia, British Columbia, or wherever it happens in this country has a major ripple effect on other parts of the country that we cannot ignore or deny.

I wonder if the member would comment on that.

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February 4th, 2009 / 4:45 p.m.
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NDP

Megan Leslie NDP Halifax, NS

Mr. Speaker, the member's comment is a very good one. This is something I was alluding to earlier. People who are working on the ground understand the connection. They know exactly what is going on. I could cite the statistic that one shipbuilding job creates four spinoff jobs, but what does that mean?

I find it quite remarkable that a dairy farmer from Antigonish county, which is nowhere near the shipyards in Halifax, would say to me, “Gee, I hope things work out for those shipbuilders because that could really help my industry”. I can only imagine the pride of seeing the stamp that something was made in Sault Ste. Marie when one is in Halifax.

This is not just about using steel from mills in Sault Ste. Marie or Hamilton, it is about local economies everywhere. It means that workers have good-paying jobs. They will be able to weather this recession. They will be able to purchase goods, which means that we have to create more goods. It is a win-win situation for local economies and communities, but also for the federal economy. That is why we are calling for investment in infrastructure through shipbuilding and to have a dedicated industrial plan that includes shipbuilding.

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February 4th, 2009 / 4:45 p.m.
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NDP

Claude Gravelle NDP Nickel Belt, ON

Mr. Speaker, I, too, would like to congratulate the member for Halifax for doing such a fine job in representing Halifax. I am sure she is going to win the riding again next time, not only because she is doing such a fine job but because the Liberals are supporting the Conservatives.

In her statement, she said that for every shipbuilding job that is created, four other jobs are created in the offset industries.

In the budget the Conservatives added five weeks to EI at the end of the period. I would like the hon. member for Halifax to tell me what kind of a difference it would have made if the government had added two weeks at the start of EI and then three weeks at the end. Would this have helped the shipbuilders who are currently unemployed?

Canada-EFTA Free Trade Agreement Implementation ActGovernment Orders

February 4th, 2009 / 4:45 p.m.
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NDP

Megan Leslie NDP Halifax, NS

Mr. Speaker, that is a very good question. That two weeks at the beginning would have made all the difference in the world. Two weeks is a very long time to wait before one evens apply.

The one thing that we often forget is that a person applies and then the person continues to wait. It is quite a bit more time before the person sees any money coming in. Despite what the minister has said in the House that two weeks is plenty of time to find a new job, two weeks is not sufficient. People need that support at the front end, and it is something we would like to have changed in the EI regulations.

Canada-EFTA Free Trade Agreement Implementation ActGovernment Orders

February 4th, 2009 / 4:45 p.m.
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NDP

Carol Hughes NDP Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON

Mr. Speaker, I am glad to join with my colleagues in denouncing this bill which will have long-term implications for the workers of this country. It is a bill which further commits Canada to a free trade agenda when what we should really be pursuing is a fair trade agenda.

I find it interesting that we are continuing to negotiate these types of trade deals given the difficulty we have had recently with the rise in protectionism, particularly from the U.S., our biggest trading partner and close signatory in the North American free trade agreement. It can be argued that we are the poor cousin in that arrangement, bringing only concessions to the table and having to live with the whims of our partners. We are seeing this with respect to iron and steel procurement in the U.S. stimulus package.

We have also witnessed the long struggle to get an acceptable softwood lumber agreement with our American partners. In northern Ontario we are particularly aware of the failure of successive governments, both Liberal and Conservative, to protect an industry that goes to the heart of our economy. In northern Ontario we have watched the trend in the softwood industry as workers are being asked for concessions, mills are shutting down and those lucky enough to still have jobs in the forestry sector are not confident those jobs will be there in the future.

It is not because of a crisis in confidence of our products, work ethics or the future of the resource. It is because these people recognize that they are working within the confines of a flawed agreement that does little to protect jobs here in Canada.

In my riding, there was the loss of 120 jobs at the Haavalsrud mill in Hornepayne, the closing for four weeks of the Tembec mill in Kapuskasing and its announcement yesterday of lay-offs in Hearst, not to mention the concessions that Columbia Forest Products in Hearst tried to obtain from its workers. All these events have an immediate impact on our small towns.

Forgive me if I fail to see the silver lining in this latest free trade agreement with the European Free Trade Association, comprised of Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway and Switzerland. Although we are the larger partner in this agreement, at least in terms of population, once again we are conceding ground and making it difficult to ensure the future survival of important national industries.

I am talking about our shipbuilding industry now. We are entering into an agreement that will all but guarantee that our shipbuilding industry continues to contract and loses ground to foreign producers. This trade agreement will reduce tariffs on ships from 25% to zero in a period of 10 to 15 years, depending on the type of ship.

The main source of competition for shipbuilding will be Norway. Norway has pursued a long-term industrial strategy for shipbuilding. It has a state-of-the-art yard that has been subsidized and is well established. Canada does not. We do not have an industrial policy for shipbuilding and the infrastructure in the yards we do have is not state-of-the-art. Canadian yards are not on a level playing field as we set them loose to compete under the terms of this agreement.

I would be remiss to go on any further without mentioning the good work of my colleague, the hon. member for Sackville—Eastern Shore. Had governments listened to his call for improvements in Canadian shipbuilding capacity, we would not be voicing many of our concerns today. We would be entering into this agreement on a level playing field and be able to compete not only with Norway but Japan, Korea and any of the best shipbuilding yards in the world. Sadly, his repeated call for a shipbuilding industrial strategy has been ignored, and we in the NDP are forced to fight on behalf of the remnants of this once proud industry to ensure it does not simply vanish.

I would also like to echo the sentiments of my colleague from Thunder Bay—Rainy River. I too am appalled that not one ship is being built in the Thunder Bay shipyard, not now or even in the past year, yet at the same time we are moving ahead with an agreement that will forever hamstring this industry. It is inconceivable that we would like to merely walk away from these good jobs in a time when we are meant to be moving heaven and earth to protect jobs in Canada.

It does not end with shipbuilding though. Our concerns go beyond that. There are serious implications for our agricultural sector in this agreement as well. The provisions within the agreement concerning agriculture defer to the World Trade Organization principles and dispute mechanisms, which will have a very negative impact on supply management by weakening Canada's position. The NDP opposes these WTO mechanisms and has strong concerns about their effect on our domestic agriculture capacity.

Terry Pugh, the executive secretary of the National Farmers Union, told the Standing Committee on International Trade in April of 2008:

--the most critical and highly negative aspect of this deal...is its impact on supply management, for example, in the dairy industry. It's true that our access commitments remain in place for imports of certain commodities, as specified under the WTO agreement, but the tariff rates on some of those imports have been dramatically lowered, some of them to the point of elimination entirely.

He points out that butter coming into Canada in shipments of under 4,000 tonnes has a 7% tariff. Under this deal, that 7% goes down to 0%. The amount that is coming in stays the same but the tariff rate is actually reduced. That just opens up Canadian markets to offshore products, and every time we do that, we shut Canadian producers out of their own domestic market. Is that not a shame? It might be free trade but it certainly is not fair trade.

We have standards in Canada and our dairy farmers are demanding. They work hard and they deliver a safe product through reliable supply routes, operating under a supply management system that ensures as much.

They operate under the basic tenets of fair trade. These are commitments to health and safety, respect for human rights, worker rights and right to assembly. They operate in good faith. That is more than can be said about a government that rushes through trade agreements just to be seen to be doing something, a government that has made promises on icebreakers, the Arctic patrol vessel and the joint support ship project, none of which are moving ahead despite the fact that they could all be done in Canada.

I would like to quote Andrew McArthur of the Shipbuilding Association of Canada and Irving Shipbuilding who appeared before the Standing Committee on International Trade on April 2, 2008. I know it has been mentioned a few times in the House already, but I think it is important that we keep hammering away at it. He said:

So our position from day one has been that shipbuilding should be carved out from the trade agreement. We butted our heads against a brick wall for quite a number of years on that and we were told there is no carve-out. If the Americans, under the Jones Act, can carve out shipbuilding from NAFTA and other free trade agreements, as I believe the Americans are doing today with Korea, or have done, why can Canada not do the same? [...] We have to do something to ensure shipbuilding continues. The easiest thing is to carve it out from EFTA. And if you do one thing, convince your colleagues in government to extend the ship financing facility, make it available to Canadian owners in combination with the accelerated capital cost allowance, and you will have as vibrant an industry as exists.

In closing, I would like to remind the government that this agreement threatens Canadian industry and agriculture. This agreement sets adrift, perhaps forever, our shipbuilding history and its industry. It could also have dire consequences on dairy producers and should be reviewed with a healthy dose of skepticism.

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February 4th, 2009 / 5:30 p.m.
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NDP

Claude Gravelle NDP Nickel Belt, ON

Madam Speaker, the member for Vancouver Kingsway made a wonderful presentation. Mill after mill has closed down in the past several years in Northern Ontario because of the policies of the Conservative government, especially its signing away of $1 billion to the American government.

The hon. member spoke about fair trade in his statement. Would he tell me how not only British Columbia, which he represents, but also the rest of Canada would benefit if we had a fair trade agreement in the softwood lumber and shipbuilding industries as well as in agriculture?

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February 4th, 2009 / 5:30 p.m.
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NDP

Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC

Madam Speaker, I will focus a little on the agriculture aspect of the member's question. I will start by answering with a quote from Terry Pugh, the executive secretary of the National Farmers Union, who said:

—the most critical and highly negative aspect of this deal, from our point of view, is its impact on supply management, for example, in the dairy industry. It's true that our access commitments remain in place for imports of certain commodities, as specified under the WTO agreement, but the tariff rates on some of those imports have been dramatically lowered, some of them to the point of elimination entirely.

It's good when the tariff rates on our exports are reduced. It's another matter when we see tariff rates on imports of dairy products, for example, coming into Canada reduced....I think the Ag Canada representative, in early March, pointed out that, for example, on butter, under 4,000 tonnes of butter coming into Canada, which is our access quota, right now under the WTO—that's a 7% tariff. Under this deal, that 7% goes down to 0%. That is, without a doubt, a tariff cut...The amount that's coming in stays the same, but the tariff rate is actually reduced.

That is a key point, because what that does is effectively facilitate access to the Canadian market for imports of dairy products....the more [this happens], the more we shut out Canadian producers from their own domestic market.

That is a good illustration for the hon. member. When we have free trade but not fair trade, our Canadian producers have difficulty competing because the playing fields are not the same.

We must ensure that any country that wants to import or export products into our country, that wants to trade with us is committed to principles of fair wages and of respect for environmental protection, ensuring the environment is not degraded to the point where our environment is sacrificed so it can lower the price of its goods. We also must have reciprocal access to that country's markets.

If any one of those three factors is not respected, then we see cheap imports flooding into our market without the reciprocal ability of our domestic producers to export our products there. In the case of the dairy producers, as I just mentioned, it even harms the ability of our domestic producers to supply our domestic market. That just hurts our businesses and it hurts Canadians across the country.

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February 4th, 2009 / 5:35 p.m.
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NDP

Malcolm Allen NDP Welland, ON

Madam Speaker, this past week the Dairy Farmers of Canada have come to visit many of us on the anniversary of its 75th year as being an organization which was absolutely memorable. It was great to meet with those members, especially since those dairy producers are actually close to our own ridings and in some cases in our ridings. One of the things that they wanted to talk about was the supply management system. My question for my colleague will be around that issue and what that means in the sense of fair trade.

They asked me what was my sense of the quality and the security of the product they were delivering, in particular milk, and what were my constituents saying to me. One of the things that came to mind was that one of the most secure systems in the world is the supply management system. One of the validators for that is mothers. It is mothers who buy milk for the youngest of us, for their children, and who never have a question about its quality and the security of it. That speaks immensely to the supply management system and how well it works.

I think that is a tribute to the type of system that we have had and continue to have, and indeed could build upon if we so chose. Then again, it is the choice that we have to make and one that is in front of us today. It is that very choice, that we could look to build on that type of a system, augment it in other sectors, and look to that and ask what are the good parts of that.

Consumers are very satisfied across the country with the dairy products they receive from the perspective of quality and security. We have seen around the world, when it comes to dairy products, that there are some systems that are not as secure as our own. I am not so sure that we would want to have those systems given to us, because we had no other choice, because we let ours disappear.

If we look at that system and we were to say to ourselves, what are the good attributes of that system and could we take those attributes and indeed overlay them on to things like shipbuilding and to other parts of agriculture in the context of a fair trade system in this particular case? Could we allow the shipbuilding industry to have a kind of managed system, not so much like dairy but use those attributes that say that once we allow it to be on a level playing field with its competition, it would be more than happy to compete?

I wonder if my hon. colleague would comment on that. Does he see any kind of linkages and does he see any overlap? Can we use and learn from those good things that we see in the supply management system in those particular dairy products?

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February 4th, 2009 / 5:35 p.m.
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NDP

Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC

Madam Speaker, I would like to thank the member for Welland for his astute observations and for bringing up a player in this entire debate that perhaps has not been focused on enough and that is the Canadian consumer, and the fact that we take for granted in this country that we have a safe and fair system of delivering food and bringing it to market. We can easily take that for granted when we start opening our borders in trade agreements to the introduction of foodstuffs from other countries.

I neglected to identify before that my own grandfather was a farmer who homesteaded on the Alberta-Saskatchewan border and began that in 1926. He was an ardent and firm believer in supply management and the need to make sure that the people who grow our food and produce, all of our foodstuffs in this country, are treated fairly.

Once again, this was reinforced last night in the meeting with the dairy producers of this country who also have made a further plea for us to remain committed to supply management in this country.

With the focus on the environment that has really begun in the last 20 years, I think it is very important that we all become very aware of the fact that we have a very clean and safe food production system. Not only that, it allows us to produce food locally, so we do not have to, nor would we want to, begin having a trade system that sees us transporting foodstuffs from thousands of kilometres away when we can produce those foodstuffs locally and consume those products locally.

Therefore, not only does it benefit our farmers, not only does it benefit our agricultural industry, not only does it benefit our consumers but it also benefits our environment by having a strong trade deal that is based on supply management and principles that go beyond simply price, and simply introducing products into this country that are cheap. There is so much more to a trade deal than just the price of cheap goods.

Once again, our party is standing up to enshrine those principles into trade legislation and the bill before the House unfortunately falls a little bit short in that regard.

Canada-EFTA Free Trade Agreement Implementation ActGovernment Orders

February 4th, 2009 / 5:40 p.m.
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NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

Madam Speaker, I am very proud tonight to rise and speak to Bill C-2, An Act to implement the Free Trade Agreement between Canada and the States of the European Free Trade Association (Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway, Switzerland), the Agreement on Agriculture between Canada and the Republic of Iceland, the Agreement on Agriculture between Canada and the Kingdom of Norway and the Agreement on Agriculture between Canada and the Swiss Confederation.

I do not know if I have ever told the House about my late uncle, John Lindsay MacNeil. He quit high school, which was common in those days, and he was a jackleg miner in the McIntyre Mine. I know members are thinking to themselves that MacNeil must be a Cape Breton name, and it certainly is. The MacNeils left the beautiful region of Iona to come to northern Ontario because working in the dangerous gold mines in northern Ontario was safer than working in the collieries in New Waterford and Glace Bay. John Lindsay worked underground on the drills and decided that he should get himself an education. It was not easy then. Actually it was a Russian immigrant who taught my uncle Latin on the night shift. This is a true story. I can see that I have the House's complete attention on this.

He learned Latin on the night shift and went back to university at St. FX, where all the Cape Bretoners go. He became a trade negotiator for Canada and he was in the first trade negotiations for Iceland. Iceland might seem like a small country to many, but we are a trading nation and we send out our trade negotiators to come back with great agreements.

As a very interesting aside, when he was in Iceland meeting with the Icelandic trade commission, he had another Cape Bretoner with him. After three days they had a few shots of Icelandic vodka and the Icelandic trade commissioner looked at my uncle said, “MacNeil, you are not one of those pithy little Celts. Look at your stature. You are one of us. You are a Viking. You are Neilson, not McNeil”. Not only was he able to deal with trade negotiations at the international level, but he also learned a lot about the heritage of the people from Iceland.

I say that because when a trade agreement comes back from our trade commissioners, who bring it to the House, it is the role of the opposition to ensure that the trade agreement is in the best interest of the country. That is our job. If we fail to do that job, we have no business being here.

There are many elements about international trade deals that are important. I know many people, for example, are looking forward to Norwegian cheese coming in. My kids have always wanted to have access to the famous Norwegian blue parrots, which have a beautiful, remarkable plumage. They stun easily though and one has to watch them, especially when they are pining for the fjords, but in a trade agreement that might be something that we might be able to assess.

We have to then ask ourselves, if we are making the trade agreement, what are we giving up? That is the rub of international trade. It is not to close our borders or to be protectionist. It is to ensure that we are on a level playing field. When we go up against a country such as Norway, which has a coherent national strategy in terms of shipbuilding, and we look at Canada that has been completely derelict in terms of a national strategy in key sectors such as forestry, auto and shipbuilding, we are not on a level playing field.

We are signing an agreement with the country of Norway and we have to ask ourselves what is on the table. We are looking at billions of dollars in lost opportunities in Canada, and I simply do not think there is any way we can sell that to the Canadian public and say that it is in their best interests.

Time after time, Canadians have been hosed at various levels of trade agreements. The most notorious of course was the softwood sellout, engineered as a photo op by the Conservatives. From northwestern Ontario to Abitibi region, we can count on one hand the number of saw mills that are still running. When we talk to anybody in those communities who are trying to get value added agreements off the ground, to get small manufacturers going, they do not have quota. They are not allowed to compete anymore, because under the Conservatives' idea of trade, we give up our ability to compete on a fair and open field against the Americans. We have seen that even if they actually produce value added products, they end up paying more in the softwood tariffs. The Conservatives' idea of trade was to have a disincentive against our own producers, who could compete against anybody on the global scale.

Another example of course is the notorious chapter 11 provisions of NAFTA, which have left Canadians on the hook. In Mexico we have seen the same problems.

If one has not dealt with the provisions of chapter 11, then one might not believe how bad some of these trade provisions are. I could give the example of the Adams Mine garbage plan. This was a municipal contract in the province of Ontario to haul waste from a city. It was a notorious crackpot scheme that was eventually shut down. It took the Ontario government to step forward and expropriate the site. A number of years after this was shut down there was suddenly a chapter 11 challenge, which I have here, by a guy from the U.S. calling himself Vito Gallo. He claimed that he was the sole owner of this property through his 1532382 Ontario Inc. company.

This Vito Gallo asked the Conservative government, which is notorious for not standing up for trade interests, for $350 million. We go into chapter 11 without knowing what kind of testimony Vito Gallo is going to bring to defend his claim. The interesting thing to note is that he tried to sue the Ontario government, but his claim was thrown out of court. He could not win in court so it was brought to chapter 11. There is another interesting thing about this Vito Gallo. If we try to find out who owns the Adams Mine, we find that 1532382 Ontario Inc. is registered in North York. It is an Ontario-based company.

In 2004, 1532382 Ontario Inc. gave $4,000 to a leadership bid in the Ontario provincial Conservative Party. Who was the person given this money by this supposed Vito Gallo, this American investor who was robbed of his international rights? It was our own august finance minister.

This case involved a numbered company, registered in North York, Ontario, that gave money to the man who is now the finance minister of Canada, and yet he went to chapter 11 claiming $350 million from the taxpayers of Canada without having to do proper disclosure and without having to prove anything. We have to ask ourselves how could this numbered company that is registered in North York actually be able to sue Canadian taxpayers for a municipal waste contract in the province of Ontario.

A lawsuit was filed by Canadian Waste Services, the Canadian arm of Waste Management Canada, on February 28, 2003. Canadian Waste Services filed a lawsuit against Notre Development, the Cortellucci Group of Companies, which also has given a fair amount of money to the Conservative Party, and 1532382 Ontario Inc. for $4.6 million over the ownership of the Adams Mine. The lawsuit referred to the 2002 sale to 1532382 Ontario Inc. as the Cordellucci agreement, not Vito Gallo. Nobody ever mentioned Vito Gallo but they mentioned Mario Cordellucci, who was very well known to the old Mike Harris wrecking crew and a number of our frontbench people.

We see in this bizarre world of NAFTA that this Vito Gallo, who appeared out of nowhere, can take his case behind the curtain without any public prying eyes or the normal obligations of fair disclosure and public disclosure of evidence. As a citizen of the U.S., he can claim to hit the taxpayers of Canada up for $350 million because we signed on to this in a trade provision. The only thing defending our interests is the Conservative government with the present finance minister. I am not saying there is any connection, but he also received money in the past from the same company.

We have to look to the Conservative Party of Canada to defend our interests in this matter. Oh my God, the Canadian taxpayer will have to wonder what is going to happen to that $350 million. Is the government writing the cheque right now?

This all comes back to Bill C-2. Before we sign a trade agreement, we need to actually squeeze the Charmin and make sure that the kind of things the Conservatives are bringing forward are actually coherent and in the national interest. We need to push them back to the drawing table where they can write a coherent bill of which we can all be proud.

I would be more than willing to entertain questions and comments.

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February 4th, 2009 / 5:50 p.m.
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NDP

Claude Gravelle NDP Nickel Belt, ON

Madam Speaker, I would like to ask the hon. member for Timmins—James Bay, if his uncle MacNeil was alive today what would he think about the bill we are discussing today?

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February 4th, 2009 / 5:50 p.m.
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NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

Madam Speaker, I would never deign to put words in the mouth of a MacNeil because they certainly were never afraid to speak loudly and, being somewhat superstitious, my good old Uncle Lindsay might actually pay a visit. However, I know one of the principles of trade that he always talked about was that one needed to have a really clear agreement in place. I think that is what we are talking about.

It is not that an agreement with Liechtenstein and Switzerland is not in the national interest. I certainly think the more trade agreements that we have the stronger we are because we are a trading nation, and the more that we can actually get our products out there, with rules based, that is what we need.

I believe there are problems with this agreement and we need to look at them.

We can look at the complete unwillingness of the European Union and the Americans to play by the rules by which Canada always plays. There are EU export subsidies on agricultural products and it is dumping its products internationally. The U.S. is continually mucking with the price of grain and distorting the price. Our farmers and our industries play by the rules internationally and we are always on the losing end.

We need to learn a lesson when we sit down with trade partners. Liechtenstein might not be the biggest country that we have ever dealt with but it becomes an equal partner and we need to ensure there are not huge flaws in the agreement. The fact that we would be losing our shipbuilding capacity in a country that has probably the largest sets of coastlines in the world is simply not good public policy. The refusal of the government ideologically to actually have a coherent industrial policy is clear.

General Motors is musing publicly about leaving Canada. Ten years ago that would have been unheard of. The government sits back and tells us all to whistle a happy tune and everything will be all right. The lack of an industrial sector strategy is devastating, particularly in Ontario right now and regions of Quebec.

As I said earlier, we can count on one hand the amount of sawmills that are running from northwestern Ontario to Abitibi. That would have been a situation unfathomable 15 years ago and yet we see a government that shows complete and utter indifference to the devastation in the forestry communities and the devastation facing forestry families as they slip through the EI cracks.

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February 4th, 2009 / 5:50 p.m.
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NDP

Malcolm Allen NDP Welland, ON

Madam Speaker, as I was thinking through all of the interventions I have heard over the past two days in talking about workers, we would all be remiss in this House if we did not think back to all those veterans of the merchant marine who served this country, not from the perspective of an armed combat role but sailed those seas in perilous times. I think back to those veterans of the merchant navy who are today looking at us and saying, “Whatever happened to our shipbuilding? Why is it disappearing?”

I wonder if the hon. member could comment on what it means to those veterans, in a sense, to see this slip away.

Canada-EFTA Free Trade Agreement Implementation ActGovernment Orders

February 4th, 2009 / 5:50 p.m.
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NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

Madam Speaker, my father-in-law was on the Murmansk run. He was in Burma with the Navy. At that time, Canada, a country of 11 million, as poor as we were coming out of the depression, ended up with the fourth largest navy in the world. It showed the will of this nation, not only of our air force, our massive armed presence in Europe, but our navy. What we built in ships in that period of time is a marvel that we should be proud of. Many of those ships are long gone and Canada walked away on the incredible capacity that we built in that period. I think that to our previous generation, we dropped the ball and we cannot allow the ball to be dropped any further.

Canada-EFTA Free Trade Agreement Implementation ActGovernment Orders

February 4th, 2009 / 5:55 p.m.
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NDP

Niki Ashton NDP Churchill, MB

Madam Speaker, in our discussions today on Bill C-2 and the discussion around the trade agreement in question, the question we really need to be asking is: What is our vision of Canada?

Growing up as a proud Canadian, I know that words like fairness, equality and justice are words that characterize who we are. Today we stand reeling from a budget so recently passed without our support, where we believe that a failed and disjointed attempt was made to deal with the current economic challenges and a failed attempt to look at the future and build a country that is better for all of us.

We felt that in so many ways the budget was wanting, wanting in terms of establishing that fairness for working people who are losing their jobs, in giving support for people whose industries are now falling apart and in establishing equality. We saw the taking away of pay equity and issues around collective bargaining. We also saw a failure to achieve justice for so many Canadians, Canadians living in poverty, Canadians of different backgrounds, women and aboriginal peoples.

We need to be looking ahead at how we can ensure that vision. We also need to be asking serious questions about this trade agreement and encourage members to vote against it. This trade agreement is fundamentally about our trade relationship with European countries. I am proud to be of European descent. I am proud to be of Greek and British descent and we have a great deal to learn from Europe.

We can look closely at the trade partners we are talking about in terms of this bill. Countries like Norway, Switzerland, Iceland and Liechtenstein of course. We have a great deal to learn from countries like Norway, Iceland and Switzerland that have been leaders in terms of establishing fairness, equality and justice in their own countries. While they are open to trade, they ensure it is part of a vision in which their country is better off for it.

That is where Canada can learn. Canada ought to learn and our government ought to stand up on the fact that this trade deal is bad for the country that we want to build. We can learn from the way these countries profit from certain lucrative industries. We have heard that Norway is a leader in terms of its shipbuilding industry and how it reinvests into social programs, whether it is child care, health care programs or women's advocacy groups and other programs that aim to achieve gender equality in their country. Canada has a great deal to learn from countries like Iceland, which has the highest number of women parliamentarians in the world, whereas I believe only 21% of Canada's parliamentary representatives are women. This is shameful in a country where 51% of our population is made up of women.

Let us learn from these countries in terms of building a vision where trade and economic development serve to strengthen us socially in terms of our economy but also in terms of our social rights, equality and quality of being in general. What we are saying here is that we should continue building relationships with countries and to applaud building relationships with countries that are forward-looking in terms of their dealings while ensuring that what we are going for as Canadians benefits us across the board.

I would like to turn to the region that I represent, a region that many people would classify as rural. I know that in northern Manitoba we refer to ourselves as being north, but in terms of many characteristics there are similarities to rural regions. In our region, we are suffering a great deal as a result of the economic downturn. The softwood lumber deal and the economic downturn have led to losses of jobs and the shutting down of what was once a lucrative lumber mill in The Pas, Manitoba. We are also dealing with losses of jobs generally in the forestry industry across our region.

Another industry that is hurting is mining, an industry that, except for a positive commitment to mine exploration, was not referenced in the budget despite a government commitment in December to do so. Mining is an area in which many Canadians in our region are also losing their jobs and families are suffering for it.

I think in both of those industries we have seen what many of us are warning against today. It is the loss of the Canadian government and of Canada to say, “Wait a second, let's look at the benefit for our country. Let's look at the benefit for Canadians”. As a result of the softwood lumber industry, the softwood sellout, an agreement that was signed by the Canadian government, thousands of jobs are being lost and mills are shutting down all across the country. That was our opportunity to act in terms of looking out for the well-being of our own people.

In terms of mining, we have seen in the last few years a rise in foreign ownership of what were previously Canadian companies. That is certainly something that concerns us a great deal in northern Manitoba as we saw a major company being bought out by foreign owners. Once again, we see Canada unable to step up and say, “Wait a second. Let's look out for the benefit of our own people”.

We are seeing the palpable threat of this continuing to happen to the shipping industry, an industry that we hear is not just part of the economic fabric but is part of the cultural and social fabric of our country in so many regions.

Shipping has a very deep connection in our riding, the home of the Port of Churchill, where a great deal of trade goes through Manitoba and all across Canada. We have a great deal of international trade but there are also Canadian ships and Canadian industries that benefit as a result.

We need to be making those linkages between the steel that is produced in Ontario, the nickel that is mined in Ontario that goes to producing the steel, that goes to producing the ships, and also looking at the lumber that goes to building infrastructure all across our country and contributes to the shipping industry.

We need to be making those linkages and seeing how these linkages are actually the stories of people all across the country who are working and making a living off these jobs. The moment we cut off one part of it, whether it is shipping, forestry or mining, when we see the shutting down of these industries, it is people's lives and well-being that is at stake.

It is Canada that has the ability to step up and say that it will not stand for it. That is what we in the NDP are doing and that is what we are looking forward to seeing from the government.

Another real point of contention as a result of the bill is the issue around supply management. Yesterday many members of Parliament from the opposition and from the NDP had the opportunity to meet with dairy farmers. I had the opportunity to meet with three dairy farmers from Manitoba. These were gentlemen who had their farm passed on to them from their fathers and, thankfully, all three of them assured me that they were planning to pass it on to their children as well.

Those people are taking a real leadership position because they are afraid of what might come to be, whereby Canada will not stand up and say that this kind of legislation helps our communities. Besides the contribution of healthy food in the dairy industry, milk, yoghurt, butter or whatever it might be, these are people who build communities and these are the communities that Canada is made up of.

I know many of these communities, speaking as a rural member, are actually represented by people on the governing side. What concerns me is that representatives of these communities would stand to support a bill that goes against the protection of people's jobs in the communities they represent and of the well-being of not just families but the communities and regions. It is a concern I share for my region where there are dairy farmers, but also all across Manitoba,. I would urge the Conservatives to look at that. We are certainly concerned on this side in terms of what that might mean in terms of other areas of agriculture with respect to the Canadian Wheat Board.

Finally, I would like to conclude with that question of vision. Speaking as one of the youngest members of Parliament, I am concerned about the future of our country. I believe we all are concerned. However, we have the opportunity to stand up and say no to legislation that is bad for the future of our country, that is bad for the present, that is bad for young people in Canada, that is bad for people involved in industries all across Canada and ultimately bad for the whole of Canada.

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Liberal

Marlene Jennings Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC

Madam Speaker, I listened with great interest to the speech from our hon. NDP colleague. She mentioned that she met with representatives from Dairy Farmers of Canada, which is celebrating its 75th anniversary this year.

I also met with representatives from the Quebec group yesterday. One of the points they raised was about yogourt production and how it is regulated. I imagine the representatives that the member met with also raised this question.

Did the farmers she met with suggest, as those from Quebec did, that the federal government adopt a national strategy and regulations, using Quebec's standards—which are the highest in Canada—as a model? Quebec produces 90% of Canada's yogourt. And if they were to make such a proposal, would her political party agree? I can say that we would.

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February 4th, 2009 / 6:05 p.m.
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NDP

Niki Ashton NDP Churchill, MB

Madam Speaker, we definitely foresee serious problems in terms of the future of this industry. The people I spoke with mentioned the leadership of both Quebec and Canada in cheese production.

Why not say the same thing about yogourt, a product that we are all familiar with and that is now touted as essential for health?

There must be a frank and honest discussion with the government in order to protect the quality of this product, of course, but also to support the work these people do in every Canadian community.

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NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

Madam Speaker, I was very thrilled to hear my hon. colleague talk about the importance of yogourt, cheese and milk, because it deals with issues of trade.

For example, in my region we had Parmalat, the largest milk company in the world. Parmalat decided that it did not want to be in the Temiskaming region any more, that it had bigger things to do and it would simply take its quota and leave. It would not matter how much money was being made in that little plant in Temiskaming, it was not enough for Parmalat.

Through our local efforts, we pushed back and said no to Parmalat, the same as we should say to forestry companies or anything else, that if they want to leave, they can leave, but the quota stays. The quota stayed in Temiskaming and our local farmers took over that plant. Now the Thornloe cheese plant is not only sustainable, it has moved from 30,000 litres to 90,000 litres because it is so successful.

There is a lack of vision in this country where there is no plan to ensure that regional and local operations are sustained. If we simply allow ourselves to be governed by larger and larger multinational units, we will reach a point where there will never be enough money coming from the regions unless they are being basically pillaged to entice these multinationals. We have seen this in forestry, in mining and in cheese.

I would like to ask my hon. colleague what her experience in the wonderful region of Thompson and Churchill, Manitoba is on the need to have a local and regional strategy for the economy?

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February 4th, 2009 / 6:10 p.m.
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NDP

Niki Ashton NDP Churchill, MB

Madam Speaker, certainly in our region there are some very exciting initiatives in terms of food security and local food production. Fortunately, we have a provincial government that has taken a leading role in supporting these initiatives.

However, the question in our riding is, where is the federal government? May it step up to support local industries, to prevent the selling out of our jobs across the oceans or south of the border. May it step up and say no, we will look at the well-being of our communities and work to support the jobs in our country right now.

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February 4th, 2009 / 6:10 p.m.
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NDP

The Acting Speaker NDP Denise Savoie

Is the House ready for the question?

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February 4th, 2009 / 6:10 p.m.
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Some hon. members

Question.

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NDP

The Acting Speaker NDP Denise Savoie

The question is on the motion. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

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February 4th, 2009 / 6:10 p.m.
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Some hon. members

Agreed.

No.

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NDP

The Acting Speaker NDP Denise Savoie

All those in favour of the motion will please say yea.

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Some hon. members

Yea.

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NDP

The Acting Speaker NDP Denise Savoie

All those opposed will please say nay.

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Some hon. members

Nay.

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NDP

The Acting Speaker NDP Denise Savoie

In my opinion the yeas have it.

And five or more members having risen:

Call in the members.

And the bells having rung:

The division stands deferred until 3 p.m. tomorrow.