Bill C-232 (Historical)

An Act to amend the Supreme Court Act (understanding the official languages)

This enactment amends the Supreme Court Act and introduces a new requirement for judges appointed to the Supreme Court to understand English and French without the assistance of an interpreter.

Supreme Court Act

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

moved that Bill C-232, An Act to amend the Supreme Court Act (understanding the official languages), be read the second time and referred to a committee.

Mr. Speaker, I would like to begin by thanking the hon. member for Skeena—Bulkley Valley for supporting my bill.

The government has been refusing for far too long to establish an appointment criteria based on language proficiency for Supreme Court judges, thereby interfering in an alarming way with individual rights.

The consequences have been human rights violations which Canada cannot tolerate.

I am confident, however, that change is on the way because in 2009, year of the 40th anniversary of the Official Languages Act, Canadians have decided to join forces and take action.

In an unprecedented move, francophones and anglophones from all backgrounds are coming together to support my bill, Bill C-232, to introduce a new requirement for judges appointed to the Supreme Court to understand English and French without the assistance of an interpreter. This requirement will not apply to currently sitting judges.

We share the same goal: to restore a fundamental right of all Canadians, that is, the right to a fair and equitable trial.

Allow me to outline the context. As the hon. members probably know, the statutes of Canada are not written in one official language, then translated into the other. They are drafted bilingually, neither language taking precedence over the other. Both versions are equal in law. Canadian law is written in two inextricably interlinked languages.

The Official Languages Act and the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms ensure that the historical progress achieved in this regard is preserved.

To understand the subtleties of the law and apply it integrally, one must, at the very least, understand both official languages. One must also be able to listen to the parties without the help of an interpreter to ensure that all rulings are completely impartial and objective. Otherwise, the outcome could be very detrimental to the parties.

To ensure that our rights are protected, Supreme Court justices must understand the law as written in both English and French. Simultaneous interpretation and translation are not good enough: they result in interpretations that often differ from the original meaning.

More and more Canadians agree that a judge on the bench of our country's highest court must not be partial or restricted to knowing only half of the law because he or she knows only one of the official languages.

Members of Parliament and Canadian citizens may one day find themselves before the Supreme Court of Canada. Some may find themselves living with the consequences of its rulings.

How would it feel to be the victim of injustice simply because one was not well understood?

What would happen if a judge could not get clarification as needed because of delays due to translation or interpretation?

What would happen if judges were to discuss the fate of individuals in a place not equipped with translation or interpretation services?

What might the consequences be?

As the Commissioner of Official Languages put it so well, “it's not through interpretation that we're necessarily going to understand all the aspects of the debate prior to a case being brought before the Supreme Court”.

The government must therefore pay closer attention to judges' skills. Certainly, all judges must have a good knowledge of the law, but language skills are just as important.

The Commissioner of Official Languages, Graham Fraser, stated the following:

—it seems to me that knowledge of both official languages should be one of the qualifications sought for judges of Canada’s highest court. Setting such a standard would prove to all Canadians that the Government of Canada is committed to linguistic duality. I find it essential that an institution as important as the Supreme Court of Canada not only be composed of judges with exceptional legal skills, but also reflect our values and our Canadian identity as a bijural and bilingual country.

On a related note, according to the Official Languages Act, every federal court has the duty to ensure that the language chosen by the parties is understood by the judge or other officer who hears those proceedings, without the assistance of an interpreter. The only exception to that rule? The Supreme Court.

It is not fair that the law applies to federal courts such as the Federal Court of Canada, the Federal Court of Appeal and the Tax Court of Canada, but not to the Supreme Court of Canada. Why the exception? The law should be the same for everyone. Consider this example. Judges have been appointed, even though they are not bilingual, to the Federal Court of Canada, the Federal Court of Appeal and the Tax Court of Canada. Everyone can have their trial in the official language of their choice, and the judge must be bilingual. The Tax Court of Canada has more than one judge, but only one judge is needed for the hearing. At the Supreme Court of Canada, however, certain cases require all nine judges. Those nine judges should therefore be able to understand the arguments in the client's language of choice.

The Supreme Court ruling handed down on February 5, 2009, in the Caldech case reminded the federal government of its constitutional duty to provide the public with services of equal quality in both official languages.

As the commissioner explained, this is an important principle that clarifies the scope of the Official Languages Act.

This ruling establishes that a broad view must be adopted when looking at equality, and that the government must consider the nature and purpose of the service in question when defining its linguistic obligations.

In Canada, French enjoys equality of status and use with English. No litigant, whether francophone or anglophone, should therefore be heard through interpretation or other measures before Canada's highest court.

Let us recognize the importance of making ourselves understood without interpreters or other interventions.

The Fédération des associations de juristes d'expression française de common law or FAJEF is of the opinion that the current method of appointing federal court judges, including Supreme Court judges, does not pay enough attention to language rights. According to the FAJEF, the fact that there is no mechanism for assessing candidates' language proficiency is evidence that it is not considered an important requirement when judges are appointed.

The right to use a language in court also includes the right to be understood directly in that language. What good is it to have the right to use your own language if the people you are speaking to cannot understand it? Each party must be able to be heard in conditions that do not put him or her at a disadvantage compared to the opposing party. That is the purpose of my bill.

To ensure that the Supreme Court makes fully informed decisions and that Canadians have the right to fair, equitable trials, I invite you to support my bill, Bill C-232. No one wants a misinformed judge to determine his or her future.

Make history by joining me and the following organizations, as well as all Canadians who have come out in favour of such a measure: the Canadian Bar Association, the Association des juristes d'expression française du Canada, the Young Bar Association of Montreal, the Fédération des communautés francophones et acadienne du Canada, the Quebec Community Groups Network, the Commissioner of Official Languages, the Fédération franco-ténoise, the Fédération acadienne de la Nouvelle-Écosse, the Société nationale de l'Acadie, the Société de l'Acadie du Nouveau-Brunswick, the National Assembly of Quebec, the Premier of Quebec and the Bloc Québécois, which wrote me to say it will support this bill. I certainly appreciate that gesture.

Without radically changing the current system, my bill will, in the long run, prevent appointments that go against the spirit of the law and the charter. In this way, we will more effectively honour language communities' rights, promote their equality and enhance their vitality.

I am also asking Parliament, the Liberal Party and the Conservative Party to truly ensure that people's language rights are respected. For example, when the Supreme Court was established—or any other court or institution for that matter—it was created for citizens, for Canadians as well as for Quebeckers. The court was not set up to pit citizens against judges, it was set up to serve citizens. The service provided to citizens really should be in their own language.

I have a great deal of respect for our interpreters and the great work they do for us. I wish to thank them for it. However, the Supreme Court of Canada is the court of last resort, where judges will hand down a ruling that could impact our lives, that could change them forever. So, just imagine if the judge did not fully understand the arguments.

Mr. Michel Doucet, a lawyer, of the University of Moncton said:

When you win a case by a nine to zero decision, that's far from being a dramatic situation, but when you lose a case in a five to four decision, as happened to me at one point, and you've pleaded that case in French, you then go home and listen to the English interpretation that was made of your argument before the court in which three judges didn't understand French. As the judges had to listen to the argument through the English interpretation on CPAC, you wonder about what they understood.

Just imagine, that is what a lawyer had to say about his arguments. He also said:

I listened to the English interpretation of my argument, and I understood none of it.

This is what he said before the Standing Committee on Official Languages, here in Ottawa. Michel Doucet added:

I have a lot of respect for the interpreters and the work they have to do. It must be quite complicated to do it in a political context; I can imagine what it must be in a judicial context, where every word counts—

When I was a union representative, a lawyer taught me how to conduct myself during arbitration arguments.

Sometimes, it is all about how you present yourself to the judge or the arbitrator and whether you can make an impression on them. However, how can you do that when you are presenting arguments about a law if he does not understand?

In Canada, in this country, there has been sufficient reflection about this.

In our country now, people have come to understand that if we are going to have two official languages and if the law is written in English or in French, not interpreted, how could we accept that after going to court the interpretation may come from someone else on the same law that we do not accept in the House of Commons?

I will repeat this part because it is important. The law is written in French and in English. This Parliament has decided that legislation would not be translated. It is drafted in both official languages. At the Supreme Court of Canada, interpreters can translate legislation for a judge, but this is not permitted in Parliament. Supreme Court judges have the fundamental responsibility of enforcing and interpreting the law. If the law is written in French as well as in English, I think that the judge does not have a choice. He has to be able to understand it in both official languages. That is what is requested, and it is important.

The language that we speak does not matter. When a lawyer makes representations before the judge, with all due respect, the interpreter can make mistakes because the lawyer is like the member for Acadie—Bathurst and speaks so fast at times that the interpreter does not have enough time to translate everything he says. How many times have I risen in the House to make a speech and had interpreters comment that I gave them a hard time? Imagine now the judge who is trying to understand a lawyer making a presentation.

For these reasons, I am requesting the support of the House of Commons so that, finally, the next judges appointed to the Supreme Court, the highest court of the land, will understand both official languages. That is really important. I will count on the understanding of my hon. colleagues, where this matter is concerned, on behalf of all Canadians. The court is there for the citizens, not the judges.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I want to congratulate my colleague on his bill. I would just like to know whether the bill requires that judges be perfectly bilingual when they are appointed or whether it allows a grace period so that appointees can improve their knowledge of the other language.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Mr. Speaker, I want to thank my colleague for that very important question. The bill is clear: judges must be bilingual when they are appointed. The idea is not that they will try to learn the other language after they are appointed. If that were the case, a person would have to do without a judge who understands a bill or an act in both official languages for the next four years, while that judge learns the other language.

The bill is clear. It is not retroactive. The judges in place would remain, but the requirements of the bill would apply to future appointments. My colleague may recall that every time a judge is appointed to the Supreme Court, the whole country calls on the government to appoint a judge who understands both official languages, not someone who will learn them. The Supreme Court of Canada is not a school.

For example, there is no requirement that deputy ministers be bilingual. They say they will learn the other language, but they do not. We do not want the same thing to happen with the Supreme Court. My bill states clearly that all judges appointed to the Supreme Court must know our country's two official languages.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I want to congratulate my colleague from Acadie—Bathurst on his bill. I have a question for him.

He has just made the point that Supreme Court judges should be able to understand French and English, and we agree with him. He has also just pointed out that deputy ministers and senior public servants should meet the same requirement.

What about ambassadors who represent Canada and are unilingual? What about designated bilingual positions held by unilingual people? What concerns does he have about these situations?

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Mr. Speaker, the concern lies in the fact that two weeks ago—the House was not sitting last week, since we were working in our ridings—at a Standing Committee on Official Languages meeting, witnesses were asked what language the deputy minister spoke when meeting with employees who all speak French. The witnesses replied that he spoke in English, because he does not speak French. The same is true of ambassadors.

However, it goes beyond that. What is needed is a message from the Conservative government, which says it respects Canada's official languages, confirming whether it will support a bill such as this one. Will this begin at the top? Does the Supreme Court of Canada belong to Canadians? By that I mean: is it a place where Canadians can be understood? Or does it simply serve to provide appointments for judges? Should judges or lawyers be given such a responsibility simply because they are well liked? The question we must ask is this: does this serve the well-being of our citizens? If an individual thinks that the law has been broken and wants to take the matter to court to seek justice, it is important that that individual is properly understood.

We are not asking for the moon and the stars. I hope no one will suggest that nine bilingual judges cannot be found, when there are 33 million people in Canada.

I have too much confidence in the people of this country, no matter what province they come from. There are good lawyers and good judges who speak both languages and could step into this position. Someone can be very competent when it comes to the law, but if he or she does not understand what is being said, how can that person be a good judge? I say this with all due respect to our judges.

Once again, this is why I am asking the government and all political parties—whatever their allegiances—to support this bill, in order to serve as an example that comes from the top, and demonstrate that Parliament has decided that the Supreme Court of Canada must respect language rights. This matter concerns the Official Languages Act and judges who cannot speak both languages. We must lead by example.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Lévis—Bellechasse, QC]

Mr. Speaker, it is my pleasure to rise today on second reading of Bill C-232, an act to amend the Supreme Court Act (understanding the official languages), introduced by the hon. member for Acadie—Bathurst. He is also one of the vice-chairs of the Standing Committee on Official Languages. He works hard on the committee to advance both the rights of minority communities and Canada’s linguistic duality. This bill to amend the Supreme Court Act would introduce a requirement for judges appointed to the Supreme Court to understand English and French without the assistance of an interpreter.

The English and French languages have shaped Canadian society from its very beginnings. First of all, we had the aboriginal languages and then the languages of the various cultural communities that have joined us. English and French are basic to our identity as Canadians and are at the heart of who we are.

The Government of Canada knows how important it is to support the development of the official language minority communities. In June 2008, it announced the Roadmap for Canada’s Linguistic Duality 2008-2013. This is a five-year, government-wide plan with a $1.1 billion budget. It is based on two pillars: participation in linguistic duality and support for the official language minority communities in such priority areas as health, justice, immigration, economic development and arts and culture.

I want to emphasize from the outset our government’s determination to enhance the vitality of the English and French linguistic minority communities in Canada and fully support the recognition and use of both official languages in Canada. That is what today’s bill is all about.

Canada can be very proud of its legal system—just think of all the countries that have used it as a model—and of the steps we have taken to provide legal proceedings in either official language. It is important to remember that the Supreme Court of Canada is a model of institutional bilingualism. It fulfils the will of Parliament that our national institutions should be bilingual without requiring every individual to be bilingual.

The government is committed to preserving a fair, unbiased legal system. It does this by adhering to the important principles of merit and legal excellence in the selection and appointment of judges to the superior courts of the provinces, the federal courts and the Supreme Court.

The government has appointed more than 200 judges so far to various Canadian courts. These judges and lawyers are highly competent. Their appointments embody the principles of merit and legal excellence, which will continue to guide the government’s decisions in the appointment of judges.

Merit and legal excellence are at the heart of the process for appointing judges. The other criteria are knowledge of the law, judgment, work habits, ability to write and communicate, honesty, integrity, a concern for fairness and a social conscience. Bilingualism is at the heart of these factors.

The government can take the linguistic abilities of the various candidates into account and ensure that all Canadians can access the legal system in either official language. We are determined to build a federal legal system that provides equal access to justice in both official languages.

I would also like to point out that before appointing anyone, the government consults the chief justice of the court in question to determine the court's needs, including language skills. The chief justice is in an excellent position to understand the needs of the communities being served and to identify specific needs when positions become available. We are also open to receiving advice from groups and individuals about factors to consider when filling vacancies.

In order to develop as large a pool of bilingual candidates as possible, the government calls on French-speaking lawyers' associations and francophone communities to identify individuals who have the necessary skills to be judges and to encourage such individuals to apply for positions.

The government is committed to appointing the best-qualified individuals. It will continue to appoint competent, dedicated people and to comply with principles of gender equality and cultural and linguistic diversity.

The Supreme Court of Canada plays a fundamental role in our society as the ultimate guardian of the values enshrined in the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. As such, its members must be selected from among our most distinguished and competent jurists. That is why, when the time comes to appoint a judge, we take great care to choose the best people in terms of knowledge, experience, and personal dedication to excellence.

One could not ask for better Supreme Court justices than those appointed over the past 130 years. Judges must have numerous qualities, including a strong intellect, a superior ability to draft documents, innovative ideas when it comes to new legal issues, and great sensitivity to the values laid down in the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

Constitutionalist Peter Hogg described the personal and professional qualities of a justice of the Supreme Court of Canada as follows:

1. He must be able to resolve difficult legal issues, not just by virtue of technical legal skills, but also with wisdom, fairness and compassion.

2. He must have the energy and discipline to diligently study the materials that are filed in every appeal.

3. He must be able to maintain an open mind on every appeal until he has read all the pertinent material and heard from counsel on both sides.

4. He must always treat the counsel and the litigants who appear before him with patience and courtesy.

5. He must be able to write opinions that are well written and well reasoned.

6. He must be able to work cooperatively with his eight colleagues to help produce agreement on unanimous or majority decisions, and to do his share of the writing.

The composition of the court, including the number of judges, is governed by the Supreme Court Act, which states that at least three of the judges must be from Quebec. Recognition of Quebec's civil law tradition requires representation of Quebec judges on the court to reflect Canada's bijural nature.

Furthermore, the Supreme Court has always reflected the fact that Canada is comprised of regions and the current practice is based, in accordance with legislation and tradition, on the recognition of legal pluralism, another of our nation's fundamental characteristics, and on regional diversity in the appointment process.

I would like to continue but my time is almost up. I would simply add that the composition of the Supreme Court provides this regional representation given that it includes three judges from Ontario, one judge from the Atlantic region, one from the Prairies and one from British Columbia.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to speak on this important bill put forward by the hon. member for Acadie—Bathurst.

Last year, my colleague from Bourassa brought forward an identical bill. Unfortunately, it died on the order paper, following the Conservative government's decision to stop the business of the House by calling an early election which, I must say, was unwarranted.

I am pleased to see the hon. member for Acadie—Bathurst repeat this initiative, and I salute his work—let us move beyond partisanship for a moment—regarding the promotion and respect for our two official languages

I have been sitting with the member for Acadie—Bathurst for five years on the Standing Committee on Official Languages and I must admit that, when it comes to the issue of bilingualism and respect for our communities, we generally agree with each other. I also want to salute the extraordinary work done by my colleague from Madawaska—Restigouche to promote bilingualism and respect for francophone communities outside Quebec. We on this side of the House share a sensitivity which, unfortunately, is not found on the government side.

As for the bill as such, it amends the Supreme Court Act and introduces a new requirement for judges appointed to that court. It essentially provides that judges should understand French and English without the assistance of an interpreter. In other words, we are talking about having bilingual judges.

It seems to me that this only makes sense. It goes to the core of our commitment to official language communities. We are talking here about giving a meaning to all those nice principles to which we keep referring.

We are always hearing that it is important to promote both languages, that we must promote French and English, that we must support communities, but all this is mere rhetoric. We need concrete action. Today, the hon. member for Acadie—Bathurst is taking concrete action.

As we mentioned, this is a very simple bill asking that the justices appointed to the country's highest court understand both official languages. The idea is that when a case, any case, is before the court, it should be heard and understood without the need for an interpreter, whenever one of our country's two official languages is used.

As I said earlier, I have sat on the Standing Committee on Official Languages for several years. We have seen in our work that a great deal needs to be done to promote bilingualism and respect for both official languages.

For example, there is work to be done if we want the languages of our two founding peoples to be well represented in the federal public service. Efforts are being made to that end, but more needs to be done. We need to do more together.

For example, bilingualism must be a value that the whole government espouses. Canadians in all regions need to perceive that. They need to perceive the importance of bilingualism and see that it is not a cost or a constraint, but an extraordinary opportunity for everyone across the country. Everyone needs to understand that bilingualism is part of our identity, that it is fundamental to what Canada is and that it is part of our collective wealth as Canadians.

In light of this, I do not believe it is unreasonable to ask that judges of the Supreme Court of Canada be bilingual, given the level of responsibility they have as magistrates of the highest court in the land.

If we believe in bilingualism, if we believe in linguistic duality, we cannot allow such an exception. We cannot allow unilingualism in the Supreme Court, even though bilingualism may represent a constraint for some people.

I am convinced that in the long run, everyone will embrace the spirit of this bill, which is rooted in the will of those who came before us, the will to live in a society where the two official languages have the same legal status and are treated with the same respect and importance.

Bill C-232, which my colleague introduced, clearly states that:

—any person referred to in subsection (1) may be appointed a judge who understands French and English without the assistance of an interpreter.

As has already been said, the bill is straightforward and easy to support. The opposition parties will support it, and they will not be alone. Other stakeholders such as the French-language jurists' associations, the Canadian Bar Association, the National Assembly of Quebec and the Commissioner of Official Languages, Graham Fraser, have all come out in favour of bilingualism of Supreme Court judges. In addition, the Fédération des communautés francophones et acadienne du Canada has for many years been asking that bilingualism be a criterion for selecting judges.

Because I am feeling generous, I will point out that the appointment of Nova Scotian Thomas Cromwell to the Supreme Court of Canada is good news in terms of bilingualism. As we all know, Justice Cromwell took over the seat vacated by retired Justice Michel Bastarache. Justice Cromwell is bilingual, and that is a step in the right direction, but we need more. We need to take many steps in that direction, but sadly, the Conservative government cannot be counted on to make that happen. Let us not forget that it was this same government that eliminated the court challenges program and has put off investing in linguistic duality and respect for official languages.

Recently, Radio-Canada said that Justice Marshall Rothstein, the Prime Minister's first Supreme Court appointee two years ago and a unilingual anglophone, has hindered the work of the highest court in the land:

This forces francophone justices to write their drafts in English so that translation does not slow down the process. Unilingualism can also be a problem when a case is to be heard in French.

This cannot happen every time a judge is appointed. We must have some guidelines. We must be able to guide the government's selection of the judges appointed to this country's highest court, which, we might add, is often called upon to rule on cases dealing directly with linguistic duality and respect for Canada's two official languages.

We must send a clear message to Canada's official language minority communities. They struggle every day to preserve their language and culture, and all too often, those communities have been forced to stand up to Conservative governments that are unsympathetic to their situation and their needs.

Examples of this include the near closure of Montfort Hospital in Ontario and the elimination of the court challenges program, which in fact allowed Franco-Ontarians to fight and eventually win their battle, thereby keeping Montfort Hospital open.

Having bilingual Supreme Court judges is not an end in itself, but it would send a clear message that we are serious about the importance of respecting linguistic duality. As I said, it is not an end in itself. We must do more, much more.

For instance, there must be long-term, recurring and predictable investments, so that our organizations can plan for the years to come. Investments must be made in early childhood programs in order to allow our young people to begin the learning process in their first language. We must build capacity within our communities and invest in local culture.

In other words, we must support our official language minority communities. We must be there for them, listen to, hear and understand them, and work with them so they may develop and thrive. All of Canada and all Canadians will come out stronger.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

Mr. Speaker, first off, the Bloc Québécois supports Bill C-232, an act to amend the Supreme Court Act (understanding the official languages). This bill was introduced by the hon. member for Acadie—Bathurst. It is the tip of the iceberg, as the federal government does not set an example in the matter of bilingualism in this country called Canada.

They want the federal public service to be bilingual so that it may serve people in their first language. The government currently wants to look into how universities could train students at the bachelor's, master's and doctoral levels to be able to speak English and French in order to create a pool of recruits to work in the federal public service. In itself, this is quite a good thing.

However, as regards this idea, which is currently under scrutiny by the Standing Committee on Official Languages, the issue is bigger. I call this issue “the Canadian disease”. In other words, the government wants a public service in which most of the employees are bilingual, while the judges of the Supreme Court of Canada are not required to be bilingual. This makes no sense. In Canada, there is no requirement for deputy ministers to be bilingual, but there is for their employees, the people who work for them and are part of the government machine. The deputy minister does not need to be bilingual. That makes no sense.

Canada's ambassadors are not required to be bilingual and they represent Canada, a country whose constitution provides that its two languages are on an equal footing. However, ambassadors, representing Canada abroad, are not required to be bilingual. That is cynicism. And it does not end there, because 37% of positions designated bilingual in the federal public service are filled by unilingual anglophones.

As you see, the problem is a complex one. This is the way to ignore the French fact. And this is how the Government of Canada acts toward the French fact. It explains why people like the Bloc members, all our members, are here in order to defend the French culture and language, the common, public culture and language of Quebec. In Canada, there is no respect for this language. Now you understand the whole issue of Quebec's independence, a fundamental element. Cynicism in Canada runs high.

I am sure you will agree with me, Mr. Speaker. I will show how the Conservative party has dealt with bilingualism, a concept it claims to support. In Canada, one language is more official than the other, and you will understand which one. Nearly 40 years after the passage of the Official Languages Act, it is still difficult to work in French in the federal system. When a manager is a unilingual anglophone, all the employees work in English. When 10 public servants—nine francophones and one anglophone—hold a meeting, the meeting is most often in English because, in all likelihood, the francophones are bilingual and the anglophone is not.

Worse yet, Ottawa continues not to consider bilingualism necessary for appointments to bilingual positions, as non-imperative staffing is still largely used, especially for senior positions. That is typical Canadian cynicism with respect to the French fact.

While the Conservative Party committed to support the Official Languages Act in its March 2005 policy statement and, again, in its latest election platform, ensuring that English and French have equality of status and equal rights and privileges as to their use in all institutions of the Parliament and Government of Canada, we have to recognize that, clearly, that statement is not being acted upon.

Following the cancellation of the court challenges program, the elimination of the interdepartmental partnership with the official-language communities, the appointment of a unilingual English-speaking judge, and the antics by members who show contempt by daring to call Quebeckers illiterate in their second language, even while French is losing ground, what is next? Think of the member for Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, who said that Quebeckers did not want to learn English, their second language, when data from Statistics Canada clearly show that Gatineau and Montreal rank first and third respectively in terms of bilingualism in Canada. I am from Hawkesbury, Ontario, a town located between Gatineau and Montreal, the second most bilingual city in the country. The people of Quebec are making efforts. Quebec is the province with the largest number of citizens who speak French and English. Yet, some Conservative members are making spiteful comments about the French fact and, in this case, the comments came from a francophone, which goes to show that being a member of the Conservative government does not help further the cause of the French fact in Quebec and Canada.

In May 2008, the Conservative members sitting on the official languages committee refused to support a motion on bilingualism for Supreme Court justices. If the Prime Minister is sincere in his commitments, let us hope he can rally his troops and show his support for linguistic minorities. We are living a horror story from the inside, and it is the Conservative Party that is responsible for this situation.

Considering that the bill seeks to make the understanding of French and English without the assistance of an interpreter a requirement for judges appointed to the Supreme Court; considering that the Official Languages Act provides that English and French have equality of status and use; considering that the French and English versions of federal acts have equal value and that one is not a translation of the other; considering that the right of any citizen to use French or English before Canada's courts is a fundamental linguistic right and that the Official Languages Act already recognizes the importance of being understood without the assistance of an interpreter before federal tribunals such as the Tax Court of Canada, the Federal Court and the Federal Court of Appeal; considering that simultaneous translation can create problems because it does not allow adequate reaction time to interrupt someone, to ask questions, whether for the justice, the lawyers or even the individuals subject to trial who have a right to be able to understand all the nuances and subtleties of each language, it goes without saying that the Bloc Québécois supports Bill C-232.

I will conclude by saying that the Quebec nation has dealt with this issue. On May 21, 2008, the members of the Quebec National Assembly unanimously passed the following motion: “That the National Assembly of Québec affirm that French language proficiency is a prerequisite and essential condition for the appointment of Supreme Court of Canada judges.”

We support this legislation. It is the tip of the iceberg. So much remains to be done in Canada. The federal institution does not respect the French fact. It is about time for it to begin to do so. We still have doubts about the Conservatives, but the Bloc Québécois supports the French language and it also supports this bill.

[Mike Allen, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Mr. Speaker, it is a real pleasure and honour to rise today and speak to the bill introduced by my colleague, the member for Acadie—Bathurst. When I was first asked to speak to this bill I thought it was quite interesting, and as a unilingual anglophone and a person who at this stage of my advanced years is trying to learn French and is spending a fair amount time at it, it is quite an honour for me to be able to stand and speak to this issue today.

There is a requirement in this bill that all individuals appointed to the Supreme Court of Canada be able to understand the proceedings before them in both English and French without the aid of an interpreter.

The Government of Canada strongly supports the promotion of both official languages, French and English, in our society. It is a reality in my province of New Brunswick and in my riding of Tobique—Mactaquac. Our bilingualism is a fundamental aspect of our national identity. Consequently, it is crucial that the Supreme Court, which is at the pinnacle of our legal system, reflect this aspect of our country's character.

Since the Supreme Court sits at the pinnacle of our justice system, it is very important that it reflect an element of our country's character, that French and English are our official languages. In New Brunswick, 33% of our population is francophone, so this is very important.

Allow me to outline briefly the constitutional context in which language rights are exercised in our judicial system. Section 133 of the Constitution Act, 1867, and subsection 19(1) of the charter provide that either English or French may be used in any court established by Parliament.

Subsection 16(1) of the Official Languages Act sets out the obligation, for federal courts, to appoint judges who can hear a case in their official language or in the official languages of their choice, directly, without the assistance of an interpreter.

Furthermore, we are required to hear the parties in their chosen official language without the aid of an interpreter.

Because of the special nature of it being the highest court and the fact that it is comprised of only nine judges chosen from different regions of the country, I think it is important that we reflect on that. The Supreme Court has to reflect the values and principles of all of Canada and all our different regions, and that includes Quebec, New Brunswick, the western regions, and the north as well.

That is why it is important that these judges be chosen from the different regions of the country. Because of that, Parliament chose to exempt the Supreme Court from this extension of the constitutional rights in 1988.

The government's commitment to ensuring that there is sufficient linguistic capacity in our courts includes the Supreme Court of Canada. As mentioned, the Supreme Court provides all its services and communications in English and in French, much like the House of Commons. In addition, every individual who appears before the court is free to use either English or French in written and oral proceedings. The court's decisions are issued in English and French as well, thereby—and this is also very important—contributing to what we call a growing body of bilingual case law that is accessible to all Canadians.

Furthermore, as the hon. members are aware, all but one of the current judges of the Supreme Court are fully competent in both official languages and are able to hear cases in either official language without the assistance of simultaneous interpretation. That is eight out of nine judges. That said, high-quality interpretation and translation services are available during the hearings before the court, and all judges have the assistance of one or more bilingual law clerks. Ongoing language training is available to all members of the court.

I really appreciate the fact that we have this ongoing language training available to members of Parliament.

Most members of the Conservative Party are learning French.

As a result, the court demonstrably has the capacity to conduct its business in both official languages. I am aware of no suggestion that the court has failed to consistently provide all Canadians with the highest quality of justice they expect and deserve. To the contrary, the Supreme Court of Canada is recognized nationally and internationally as a model of collegiality, professionalism and superior capacity. Canadians may take tremendous pride in the stature that our judges hold around the world.

As hon. members may be aware, the national status of the Supreme Court is reflected in the historical practice of providing for its regional representation. Not only is the Supreme Court ensured its bi-juridical strength through the appointment of three judges from Quebec, but its legal pluralism more broadly is made possible through the long-standing tradition of ensuring that the courts complement is drawn from all regions of Canada. Canadians from coast to coast to coast may thus see the country's geographic diversity represented in their highest court.

The government clearly accepts that linguistic ability is an important factor in selecting judges of the Supreme Court. We will continue to ensure that it will be given serious consideration as it was in the most recent appointment.

When I was asked to speak to this bill last Friday and thought about it over the weekend, it was interesting to pause and reflect on the appointments. Filling the vacancy of Mr. Justice Bastarache, who took his retirement from the bench, led us to searching for a quality judge. What is important for us to recognize also is that in our country, and reflecting on the regional balances, we must ensure we have representation who can provide the services both in French and in English. It is also important to ensure that reflects the broad diversity of our regions.

When we think about our broad regions and diversity, we have a small population in the Atlantic provinces, with 32 seats in this great place. We also have the Senate, which gives us the ability to balance things from a regional perspective. It is important that we reflect this as well in our judiciary.

The government, in filling the vacancy created by the departure of Mr. Justice Bastarache, indicated that proficiency in both official languages was an asset that would be given serious consideration in appointing his replacement. The government delivered on that promise with the recent appointment of Justice Thomas Cromwell on December 22, 2008.

Mr. Justice Cromwell, an eminent, fluently bilingual jurist, is a testament to the continued commitment of the government to appoint highly meritorious and qualified jurists to our highest court. With all the judicial appointments, but particularly given the fundamentally important role of the Supreme Court, the government remains committed to merit as an overriding consideration, based on legal excellence and personal suitability.

We recognize there must be sufficient linguistic capacity in our courts to provide equal access to justice in both English and French. The government has and will remain vigilant in seeking competence in both official languages to achieve that goal.

The House resumed from March 23 consideration of the motion that Bill C-232, an act to amend the Supreme Court Act (understanding the official languages), be read the second time and referred to a committee.

[Brian Murphy, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Mr. Speaker, it is a great pleasure for me to rise on Bill C-232, which amends the Supreme Court Act. I am in favour of this bill not only because it was introduced by an hon. member from New Brunswick, where I come from, but also because I think official bilingualism is very important for New Brunswick and the entire country. Bill C-232 is intended to amend the Supreme Court Act in this direction.

Judges will be chosen from the people described in clause 1 and will have to understand French and English without the help of an interpreter. Canada’s francophones have a right to be served in their own language, especially in the courts and most especially in the Supreme Court. That is a basic right for all Canadians, regardless of whether they live in Quebec or in my riding of Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe.

Like many other francophones in Canada, the Acadians in my riding are not all bilingual by any means. They find it hard to express themselves and understand various expressions in English. We speak English or French depending on how we learned our mother tongue. I learned French on the rinks and in the schools of New Brunswick, and I married an Acadian woman. It is the language I support here.

The Supreme Court justices should be able to understand and speak French. Canada is a bilingual country and who better to set an example than the judges of the highest court in the land? I think that all members of Parliament should understand the importance of this bill and support it. Canada is a country that was built by the French and English. We should ensure, therefore, that everyone is served in the language of his or her choice, especially before the Supreme Court.

There are laws in this country guaranteeing linguistic rights. The first is section 16(1) of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, which says that “English and French are the official languages of Canada and have equality of status and equal rights and privileges...”. It is a matter of equality. This was not the situation in 1986 when the Supreme Court heard the case of the Société des Acadiens v. Association of Parents for Fairness in Education, and when the Supreme Court wrote that there was no equality right for French in this country. That was corrected, however, in the Supreme Court’s Beaulac decision. In addition, section 18 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms says “...both language versions [French and English] are equally authoritative”. This means there is equality under Canadian law.

In English, the Official Languages Act says that any journal, record, act of Parliament, et cetera, shall be made, enacted, printed, published and tabled simultaneously in both languages, and most importantly, both language versions are equally authoritative. This is the law of the country.

In the case of Société des Acadiens v. Association of Parents, it was not accepted that an accused had a right to translation when being presented with a criminal charge. As I mentioned, this was corrected by the decision in Beaulac, a 1999 Supreme Court decision, under the pen of then Mr. Justice Bastarache. It was decided to completely reject the law in the case of the Société des Acadiens and say that, “To the extent that Société des Acadiens stands for a restrictive interpretation of language rights, it is to be rejected”.

That has been the law of the country with respect to accused persons since 1999. There were two judges in that decision, the late Antonio Lamer and the current sitting member, Justice Binnie, who disagreed with the decision, but on the grounds that a criminal case should not be purported or extended to make constitutional law. Whether or not we agree with those justices is a matter of debate here.

That is the first and best reason why we should follow this bill. There is another reason though and it is the best evidence rule. This is a common law-created rule which suggests that from the 18th century forward, the best evidence is to be used. What does that mean? It means that the best the nature of the case will allow is the quote from the 1745 decision of the English courts.

What better evidence can there be before a judge of the highest appellate court in this country, who wants to interpret what is being said, other than to understand exactly what is being said? It goes to the very nature of advocacy before our highest court.

In a bit of a segue, we are talking about all nine judges of the Supreme Court being able to understand, not necessarily speak but understand, both languages. Imagine that if there were judges who came from the province of Quebec or parts of New Brunswick where there are only unilingual French-speaking candidates, imagine the shoe on the other foot, so to speak. If an English litigant hired the best lawyer he could find in Ottawa to make an argument at the appellate level on a very important case to that litigant, and the judges were divided four-four and it came down to one judge who could not understand English, there would be an outcry. The English litigant would say, “He is not listening to my argument. He is listening to the interpreter”.

We all admire our interpretation people in this Parliament and across the courts. It is a wonderful instrument, but the very nature of interpretation means that they are taking words and forming them in their own artistic belief as to what the speaker intends. That may work in solemnizing marriages. It may work in giving out change in an arcade, but it does not work at the highest level of advocacy in this country.

The advocates who are before the Supreme Court of Canada will tell us that 90% of the cases that are decided by the court are decided when a judge of the court asks them a question, and their response wins or loses the case for them. If that answer has to go through an artistic interpretation of what the advocate meant, justice is not being done.

There is an argument that maybe the best qualified individuals will not be chosen. That is like saying that eight of our nine Supreme Court justices right now are not the highest qualified judges in the country. I think they are.

The level of bilingualism in law schools all across this country has greatly improved over the years.

Many law faculties across this country teach common law in French and civil law in English, and the two marry quite well together.

Just a final word on the evils of translation. Translation is impossible. Interpretation is an art. An English language recording of a conversation may be put into evidence in court, but so will the transcript. That proves that in courts of law across this country, more evidence is better. Better understanding is the best evidence rule, and as I said at the beginning of my speech, all of that sensible, irrefutable, logical argument that we have to have the best evidence and the advocates have to be understood in the language they use is trumped in this case.

Canadian law reflects the equality of Canada’s two official languages, that is to say, English and French.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I would first like to congratulate the member for Acadie—Bathurst. I have known him for many years and I know he is very committed in the fight to promote French, recognition, access for those appearing in court to their mother tongue and full and complete justice delivered in French.

I have no difficulty imagining areas of Canada where this situation is mishandled. In more fundamental terms, the merit of this bill is in its attack on the Supreme Court, the ultimate court of justice. We know this court's role. It is not only the guardian of rights. Of course, it has had the job of interpreting the meaning of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms since 1982. It has also has the job of keeping the law current. In doing so, it can invalidate certain provisions of the law or add to sections of law that may be considered incomplete.

The member for Acadie—Bathurst rightly points out that, we should expect realistically that the people who have been appointed to the Supreme Court can understand both English and French without the help of an interpreter. The member for Acadie—Bathurst belongs to a party with very specific ideas on the appointment of judges and with which I have generally agreed.

It is the prerogative of the Prime Minister to appoint judges to the Supreme Court. Parliamentarians were consulted regarding the two latest appointments. I was on one of the committees myself. I recall that it involved appointing a judge to represent the prairies, Manitoba, specifically. With the current President of the Treasury Board, who was Minister of Justice, we looked at one judge's candidacy. When he appeared before us, it was very clear to us that he had no skill in French. He claimed to understand it and I did not doubt him. He was a worthy candidate. He had a good record and was very erudite, well versed in jurisprudence, and clearly had the ability to write—qualities of some importance in interpreting the law. I repeat that, in terms of his knowledge of the law, he was beyond reproach. However, it was troubling that the government was making this appointment. It was of some concern that the government lacked sensitivity and was putting forward a candidate who did not know French.

I put the question to this judge, who now sits on the Supreme Court. I asked him if he did not find it was a handicap not to know French. It is one thing to not know civil law, since it is not the legal tradition in the other provinces. But to not know French in the Supreme Court can be a problem when counsel and parties appear and a judge wants to evaluate—perhaps not so much the evidence, because it has been assessed at the trial level—or understand briefs, when points of law are raised or new law is being created. Only one jurisdiction, a single court, can change the law, and that is the Supreme Court. The other courts are limited to interpreting the law and remaining true to the intent of the lawmaker, but the Supreme Court can help to change the law.

Here is one example. In 1995, a legal challenge concerning sexual orientation was taken to the Supreme Court

In 1982, when the constituent drafted the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, some members, including my colleague and friend Svend Robinson, who was then the member for Burnaby—Douglas, suggested that sexual orientation should be included in the charter. Of course, I was not in the House at the time, because I was barely 20 years old. So, in 1982, some parliamentarians proposed to add sexual orientation as a protected right under section 15. However, that request was rejected.

At the time, former Prime Minister Jean Chrétien was the Minister of Justice. Unfortunately, the groups that wanted sexual orientation to be included in the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms did not succeed in their endeavour. This was followed by a very broad movement that lasted for several decades. The issue went all the way to the Supreme Court of Canada. In 1995, in the Nesbit and Egan case, the court ruled that section 15 must be construed as including sexual orientation. This is a very good example of the power, the ability and the prerogative of the Supreme Court of Canada to bring about progress in the law.

The proposal made by the hon. member for Acadie—Bathurst regarding appointments is a very reasonable one. In fact, I cannot think of any instance where our colleague did not act reasonably, because he is himself a reasonable and moderate person. So, it is very reasonable to ask us to include a requirement to understand English and French without the assistance of an interpreter.

Again, how can one truly render justice if one cannot read the submissions, or listen to the representations of all the counsel? Is there not also a symbolic value involved? If one is appointed to the highest court in the land, should one not be responsible for knowing French?

I have not had the opportunity to discuss it with the hon. member for Acadie—Bathurst but, in my opinion, if a person is not perfectly bilingual but is committed to improving his knowledge of French, then this person should also be considered for the job.

However, there must be an obligation to achieve the desired results. Ultimately, when a judge is sitting on the bench to issue his first ruling or to hear the parties, whether by leave to appeal to the court or otherwise, that judge will have to know French and be familiar with that language and its subtleties. As we know, law is often about nuances, it can be convoluted and subtle, and it often requires us to be able to get into the substances, the nuances and the interpretations.

Of course the Bloc Québécois will support this bill. The Bloc first came here in 1990. In 1993, our parliamentary group expanded its representation under the skilful leadership of Lucien Bouchard. Also, as early as in 1995, my former colleague, Suzanne Tremblay—and some parliamentarians probably remember her—was given the responsibility, in Mr. Bouchard's shadow cabinet, of the dialogue that we must maintain with francophones outside Quebec.

I remember that Mr. Bouchard, as leader of the Bloc Québécois—and a strong believer in the francophonie outside Quebec and in the necessary friendship and solidarity link that had to be established—announced a policy in Shediac, in 1994, entitled “Francophones d'Amérique : le temps d'agir”. The way we already understood the rights of francophones outside Quebec back in 1994, it included the whole issue of the administration of justice and, ultimately, that of the Supreme Court of Canada.

I am going to conclude by congratulating the hon. member for Acadie—Bathurst. I hope that all parliamentarians will support this balanced and moderate bill, which certainly deserves to be passed.

[Thomas Mulcair, NDP, Outremont, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I too am extremely proud to support this important bill, Bill C-232, introduced by my colleague from Acadie—Bathurst. The bill proposes an extremely simple criterion for determining whether a person can be appointed to the Supreme Court or not:

In addition, any person referred to in subsection (1) may be appointed a judge who understands French and English without the assistance of an interpreter.

It is difficult to determine the degree of understanding of another language necessary to carry out a task. In Quebec, the first criteria were set out under legislation governing the practice of certain professions some 45 years ago. These requirements changed over the years and were in particular incorporated into bill 22, the first recognition of French as the official language of Quebec. They are now part of the Charter of the French Language. For instance, as a general rule, in order to become a member of a profession, to join a profession, a person must have the appropriate knowledge of the French language to practice that profession.

There are many pitfalls along the path to that knowledge. I remember the language tests of the day when I worked as a lawyer for the Conseil de la langue française, and then for Alliance Québec. These are extremely delicate matters, and that is why I really like this very simple and direct choice which does not require anything further. It simple states that one must be able to understand the English and French languages without someone else interpreting them.

Others have pointed out the importance of being able to grasp subtleties, and very often judges need to grasp and work with certain complicated ideas and concepts. We are spoiled here in the House. We have world-class interpretation. We are indeed extremely lucky to be able to count on the remarkable contribution of these women and men who work so closely with us. I use that order because the women are by far the majority.

In terms of the law, it is not always the same. I was also responsible for the translation of Manitoba’s laws. I revised the translation of all of Manitoba’s laws and regulations after the Supreme Court ruled in 1985 that Manitoba had to repair a historic wrong and start translating all its laws. I mention this point in particular to illustrate the importance of the message. Today, again, Graham Fraser, the Commissioner of Official Languages, was talking about the urgent need to have bilingual judges on the Supreme Court. Apart from the reasons I just mentioned, that is to say, how important it is to understand the nuances and so forth, requiring these judges to be bilingual is a powerful symbol.

When someone is a member of a linguistic minority, whether an anglophone in Quebec or a francophone in the rest of Canada, how can he expect the people before whom he is appearing to be sensitive to his case when it is about language rights—basic rights in a society with two official languages—if they are feeling defensive because they do not speak both official languages?

If someone never took the trouble to learn the other language or never was encouraged to do so, will he have the necessary sensitivity to decide a case of this kind? When I say someone who never took the trouble, I do not mean to criticize. We should look at it the other way around. What an incentive it would be for young law students to go back to school in order to perfect their knowledge of French. They could choose to have an internship with a company or a judge in order to improve or polish their latent knowledge of French, which they had learned a little in high school or in French immersion but which they had never really worked on.

We have two legal systems in Canada. We are bijural, therefore, in addition to bilingual. The common law can be expressed as well in French as in English, as I just mentioned in the case of Manitoba. Quebec’s civil law has an English version which can be found in the Civil Code of Quebec. Both versions are equally authoritative, as has been determined, expressed and reinforced by the Official Languages Act and by decisions of the Supreme Court of Canada.

How can we continue with this anomaly? When people appear before any other court whose judges are appointed by the federal government, it is a constitutional right to have a judge who can listen to them, serve them and understand them in their own language.

There is only one exception. Do my colleagues know what it is? It is the Supreme Court. It is this incongruous exception that the hon. member for Acadie—Bathurst wants to correct with Bill C-232, and that is why it is so easy to support him in this effort.

Canada is lucky to have two legal systems and incredibly lucky to have two official languages. I think that many people will see the powerful signal we are sending today as a reason to go and acquire a knowledge of French that is appropriate to the exercise of one of the highest offices in our country, a judge on the Supreme Court of Canada.

I listened closely to the Liberal member who spoke earlier. I do hope that what he said reflects the official position of the Liberal Party of Canada. We will see when the time comes to vote. That said, despite all that the Conservatives have said to try and convince us that they have recognized linguistic duality as a reality in Canada, I think they will vote against this bill, even though it is exceptionally clear. We shall see.

Anyway, we in the NDP are not speaking from both sides of our mouths on that issue. We do not hesitate to say that, with the opportunities we are given in this country to learn both languages, anyone who knows that a particular job requires that he or she be bilingual, will be motivated to learn his or her second language. This year is the 40th anniversary of the passage of the Official Languages Act. Similarly, anyone who aspires to a senior role in government now has an incentive to learn the other official language. Nearly all senior positions require a knowledge of both official languages.

I had the opportunity to work in several provinces. I worked on the political scene for a long time in Quebec and Quebec City. When I came to Ottawa, I was quite shocked, not to say disappointed. I had always thought—it was naive of me, I realize it now—that official bilingualism existed and was alive in the federal public service. As it turns out, that bilingualism was largely an illusion.

In parliamentary committees, one must not try to get an answer in French, even from people who have had to prove their knowledge of French in order to obtain the job that brings them before the committee. There is still a big difference between the two sides. The francophones who appear before the committee and who fill important roles within the administration always try to respond in English—even though English might be their second language and they have learned it, but it still might be a little difficult for them—to a Conservative member who asks a question in English, for example. They make an effort, even though they are francophone and they are working hard at their English to be able to answer.

I am our finance critic on the Standing Committee on Finance. Government officials sometimes appear before our committee. We know they have had to demonstrate some knowledge of French in order to advance to their position. I am thinking of the person responsible for financial institutions who appeared last year. Although we were asking this woman questions in French, she stubbornly refused to answer in French. She consistently answered in English. That is very common, especially in the financial sector, and it is unfortunate. Clearly, the incentive that once existed is no longer working or it is no longer enough to make people want to retain the French they have learned.

If this bill passes, I think all the students embarking upon their legal studies at one of Canada's law faculties in September 2009 will always bear in mind that, in order to make it to the most important position a lawyer can aspire to, they must possess knowledge of languages. I am convinced that if these young, brilliant students have not already taken the time to learn French, or English as the case may be, they will find the time and the incentive to do so, since this will push them closer to that level of excellence, which includes, in a society with two official languages, the imperative need to know both official languages.

For that reason, and in closing, I wholeheartedly support my colleague's proposal. Furthermore, I would like to congratulate him for finding the right text and wording, a way to express it, that will win everyone over.

I hope this will translate into a vote of support by the Liberals. We have already obtained the support of the Bloc. We will watch the Conservatives closely.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Public Works and Government Services and to the Minister of National Revenue]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise today to speak to Bill C-232, An Act to amend the Supreme Court Act (understanding the official languages). This bill would introduce a new requirement for judges appointed to the Supreme Court to understand English and French without the assistance of an interpreter.

The government firmly supports the promotion of English and French in Canadian society. As Canadians, we are proud of our bilingual institutions and especially the Supreme Court of Canada, which plays a fundamental role in our democratic society as the ultimate protector of the values set out in the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. The government's commitment to ensuring our courts have sufficient linguistic capability to guarantee access to a court in one or the other of the official languages applies to the Supreme Court of Canada as well.

The Governor in Council, on the recommendation of the Prime Minister, makes the appointments to the Supreme Court. The justices in this court must be of the highest calibre. Accordingly, persons with the best legal knowledge and abilities must be chosen to fill the available positions.

The Supreme Court Act provides for the composition of the court and the number of judges. It provides that at least three justices must come from Quebec. The composition of the Supreme Court of Canada reflects regional representation. The rest of the judges appointed come from Ontario, the Atlantic provinces, the prairies and British Columbia. The practice of ensuring regional representation guarantees that the most highly qualified and deserving candidates in the country are appointed to serve on the Supreme Court.

That does not mean, however, that everyone appointed to the court must be bilingual. In fact, the special nature of the Supreme Court as the highest court in the land and the fact that it has only nine judges from the various regions of Canada prompted Parliament to make an exception to the application of subsection 16(1) of the Official Languages Act in 1988. Bill C-232 proposes to circumvent this exception. This would harm regional representation on the court.

The government's position is that the proposed amendments are not needed to guarantee access to the court in one or the other official language. The Supreme Court, as an institution, makes all its services and communications available in both official languages. Anyone appearing before the court has the choice of using English or French, in the presentation of both legal proceedings and arguments. The decisions of the court are also published in both official languages, and this helps establish ever expanding bilingual jurisprudence for all Canadians to consult.

The court shows on an ongoing basis that it is capable of performing its duties at the highest level in both official languages. There is nothing to indicate that the court has provided less than the highest quality legal services Canadians deserve and expect. I would ask hon. members to bear in mind the risk that the passage of this bill represents, especially since no one has implied that the justice meted out by the court is of anything less than the highest quality.

The proposed changes would make bilingualism a prerequisite for appointment. In view of the complexity and great importance of the cases heard by the court, judges must have more than perfect linguistic skills to understand subtle, complex legal arguments based on a profusion of factual evidence. An obligatory requirement like this would limit the pool of qualified candidates from parts of the country where the percentage of judges able to hear cases in both official languages is not as high as in Quebec or New Brunswick, for example.

The government obviously agrees that linguistic skills are a major factor in the process for selecting judges to sit on superior courts, including the Supreme Court. We will continue to give them ample consideration, as we did in our last appointment to the court, Justice Thomas Cromwell, an eminent jurist who is perfectly bilingual, highly qualified, and very worthy.

That being said, the Supreme Court is at the very apex of our legal system, and in view of the important role it plays, the government feels that the overriding factor in the appointment of judges is and must remain merit based on legal excellence and personal aptitude.

Bilingualism is an important factor in the evaluation of candidates, but only one factor among others, including proficiency in the law, sound judgment, work habits, honesty, integrity, a sense of fairness and a social conscience.

We are very aware of the fact that our courts must have sufficient linguistic capacity to provide equal access to justice in French and English.

We should also distinguish between institutional bilingualism, which is historically part of the government’s responsibility to ensure that Canadian citizens are served in both English and French, and individual bilingualism, as advocated in Bill C-232.

At the present time, the Supreme Court, as an institution, provides services of the highest quality in both official languages.

The effect of Bill C-232 would be that linguistic considerations would overshadow the most important consideration of all, merit, by reducing the pool of otherwise highly qualified candidates from parts of the country where there may be fewer lawyers and judges who are capable of handling cases in both official languages.

It is not necessary to run the risk that the merit principle will be pushed aside out of a concern for bilingualism. The court already fully meets its objective of ensuring that Canadians have a right to be judged in the official language of their choice. All court services and communications are provided in both English and French.

All the current judges on the Supreme Court, with one exception, are perfectly proficient in both official languages and able to try cases in either official language without an interpreter. The judges also have the benefit of ongoing language training.

High quality interpretation and translation services are provided during court hearings and all judges are assisted by one or more bilingual employees.

The current requirements of the Supreme Court Act regarding the composition of the Court and the historical practice of regional representation allow us to fulfill our important commitment to legal pluralism, while ensuring that the people of Canada are served by judges who are very distinguished and extremely proficient.

The current court structure has provided Canadians with a solid, independent legal branch that is the envy of free, democratic countries around the world.

The quality of the current members of the Supreme Court of Canada and their commitment to the job demonstrate how seriously the current government and previous administrations have always taken their responsibility to appoint judges to the highest tribunal in the land.

Bilingualism is one important factor in the process for selecting judges. However, it should not be allowed to outweigh the most important factor of all: a candidate’s merit and legal excellence.

For the reasons just outlined, we recommend that the members oppose Bill C-232.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

Mr. Speaker, enough is enough. This bill is quite simple. It deals with the traditions that have existed at the Supreme Court of Canada for a long time. The Conservatives say that they will oppose the bill introduced by my colleague from Acadie—Bathurst, which puts in place something that is already a tradition in this country.

Why? It is quite simple. A Supreme Court justice is not fully competent unless he understands both common law in English and the civil code in French. This is the minimum qualification for becoming a Supreme Court justice. However, the Conservative government refuses to accept the facts. It is precisely because it is incapable of understanding the qualifications required in the Supreme Court of Canada that Bill C-232 was introduced by the member for Acadie—Bathurst.

We have just been told that the Conservative government does not think that British Columbians can speak French. That just goes to show how out of touch the Conservative government is with the people, particularly the people of British Columbia. In the past, the Minister of Finance has even said that his Canada starts at the Atlantic Ocean and ends at the Rocky Mountains. He left out British Columbia entirely. It is clear that the Conservative government does not understand that British Columbia is one of the provinces in which the francophone population is growing in absolute numbers.

When I was a child, there were only two francophone schools. Now there are dozens of them. We have sixty or so in British Columbia because we have francophones from all over. We have a whole rainbow of francophones from Africa, Asia, Europe, Quebec of course, Acadia and western Canada. They all speak French as their first language, and that is changing British Columbia tremendously.

That is not all. More students attend immersion schools in British Columbia than anywhere else in Canada. Our schools are packed. Sometimes parents wait in line all weekend long to register their kids at these schools.

For the Conservative government to suggest that British Columbians cannot speak French is insulting. It is simply not true. It is insulting to the people of British Columbia and to people elsewhere in Canada.

With respect to qualifications, it is clear that people are going to immersion schools and even to management schools. These people understand French well, can speak it, and are studying law. At some point in time, they will meet the minimum requirements for the Supreme Court: they will understand common law in English and the civil code in French.

I certainly do not understand this drive by the Conservatives to lower standards. We have seen it in a whole variety of things, such as air safety, transportation safety, and food safety.

The Conservative government always seems to want to push for lower qualifications. There are two basic qualifications for a Supreme Court judge: the ability to understand the civil code in French and the ability to understand common law in English. Those are simple and important requirements only at the Supreme Court level. The Conservatives do not seem to understand that and that is why we have the bill that is before us today.

The idea that higher standards and stronger qualifications are not taken into consideration is something that I find objectionable. That we need a lower standard of service, that we do not need the qualifications that have served us well in the past seems, in many areas, to be the objective of the Conservative government.

That is why the Conservatives are opposing this simple but important private member's bill put forward by the member for Acadie—Bathurst. The bill would reinforce those qualifications and standards to ensure that every Supreme Court judge understands the civil code in French as well as common law in English. I would be equally opposed if the Conservatives appointed unilingual Francophones who do not understand common law in English because the function of the Supreme Court is too important to do that.

However, that is not what the Conservatives are saying. They seem to be saying they are just going to choose whatever standards they want. We have seen what that has meant in a whole variety of areas. We have seen poor financial management from the government. Those qualifications are unfortunate, but that is the net result. We have seen a whole variety of lower safety standards. We see this drive from the government that does not make sense.

I do not accept lower qualifications and I do not think any member of Parliament should. We should set a higher bar and this legislation would set the bar to what traditionally we all understood, that a Supreme Court justice needs to understand common law in English and the civil code in French. It is very simple. Nothing has to go through translation, nothing has to go through interpretation. Supreme Court judges must be able to function adequately in the two official languages, so that they can pass through the two legal codes that are often written in two different languages.

That is the issue that is before us. We hope that the Liberal Party of Canada will support this bill. We know that the Bloc Québécois said it would support the bill and that the NDP has always been consistent when it comes to the issue of official languages. It is not just the member for Acadie—Bathurst who is fighting a pitched battle to win respect for the official languages in Canada. The entire New Democratic Party has done so since it was formed, and not just at the federal level, but in all the provinces, including mine, British Columbia. It is the NDP that has brought about these changes to respect linguistic duality in Canada.

In British Columbia, a French-language school system was created under an NDP government, as in Saskatchewan. In Manitoba, the official languages bill was introduced and implemented by an NDP government. In Alberta, it was Léo Piquette, an NDP MLA, who pushed for respect for the official languages. In the Yukon, it was an NDP government that introduced the bill to respect French and English. In Ontario, the college system was put in place by an NDP government, and in the Atlantic provinces, NDP MLAs were among those who pushed hardest for language rights.

We are not two-faced. When a New Democrat talks about official languages in British Columbia, Manitoba or the Atlantic provinces, he or she pushes for mutual respect and linguistic duality. We do not act like certain other parties that may say they are in favour of the official languages in this House, but who start attacking the official languages as soon as they leave Ottawa.

We have seen this with the Conservative Party, with the Reform Party and, sadly, with the Liberal Party in western Canada. Outside Ottawa, the Liberal Party has always attacked francophones at the provincial level. Unfortunately, the Liberal Party has a sad history of saying one thing in Manitoba, British Columbia or Saskatchewan, but another thing in Ottawa.

We are consistent. We are the only party in the history of the country that has always been consistent on the issue of official languages. That is why we fully support this bill. That is also why we support the principle that a judge should have the qualifications to become a Supreme Court justice. In other words, judges must be able to understand common law in English and the civil code in French. That is why we will vote for this bill.