Bill C-232 (Historical)

An Act to amend the Supreme Court Act (understanding the official languages)

This enactment amends the Supreme Court Act and introduces a new requirement for judges appointed to the Supreme Court to understand English and French without the assistance of an interpreter.

Supreme Court Act

[Hélène Laverdière, NDP, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am truly honoured to rise today to speak to Bill C-203, An Act to amend the Supreme Court Act regarding the understanding of the official languages.

Fair and equitable access to justice is one of the basic tenets of democracy. That is what this bill seeks to ensure, by requiring Supreme Court justices to be able to understand arguments in both of our official languages and enshrining that requirement in law.

Supreme Court justices play a major role in our democracy. They need to meet numerous qualification criteria. One of those criteria is, in my opinion, the ability to understand Canadian citizens in both official languages, which, I will point out, have equality of status under our Constitution.

The NDP is not alone in thinking that. I would like to quote some people who know much more about this topic than me. For example, Serge Rousselle, a renowned Université de Moncton law professor, said:

Bilingualism is a required skill for Supreme Court judges. To fully grasp an oral argument in a field where the subtleties of one official language or the other can be critical, the importance of being understood directly by the members of this court, without the assistance of an interpreter, seems obvious.

This is not a theoretical question.

Michel Doucet, another Université de Moncton law professor and a language rights expert, has argued many cases before the Supreme Court. He said:

In the week after I had argued a case before the Supreme Court, I had an opportunity to hear the English version of my arguments on CPAC, and I understood why I had lost the case five to four. The translation did not allow me to understand my own words. I wonder how justices can fully understand the matter at hand when they have to go through translation in which significant aspects of a submission are missing. When you win 9:0, there is no problem, but when you lose 5 to 4, you automatically wonder whether you should not have argued in English.

That is why bilingualism is essential to ensure equal access to justice, and why judges of the Supreme Court, the highest court, must be able to serve all Canadians in either official language. Once again, we are not the only ones saying so.

In his report on access to justice, Graham Fraser, former commissioner of official languages, said that since the Supreme Court is the highest court in the country, it is crucial that its judges be able to understand all the information and arguments presented, in both official languages without the help of an interpreter, including the nuances that can affect the outcome of a trial.

Mr. Fraser also strongly supported Bill C-232, which had exactly the same objectives and which the Liberals supported at the time.

I am running out of time and I see that I am going to have to cut my presentation short. I would like to point out that the Barreau du Québec and the Fédération des communautés francophones et acadienne du Canada support this bill, which is very important.

Our Liberal colleagues are telling us that they promised to appoint bilingual judges. There is a small problem. Our Liberal colleagues always seem to think that they will be in power forever. That is the first problem. At some point, another government could decide to do things differently.

There is one more problem. The member for LaSalle—Émard—Verdun said that yes, we are going to appoint bilingual judges, but that we also need some flexibility to not do it. This too seems like a very Liberal thing to say. They make a promise, but they may or may not keep it.

I think this is one more reason to recognize that this is a fundamental issue of access to justice and that this needs to be put in law. This bill could certainly be amended, but I urge all of my colleagues to vote for it so it can go to committee.

Opposition motion—Appointments to the Supreme Court

[François Choquette, NDP, Drummond, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I will be sharing my time with the member for Abitibi—Témiscamingue.

I am pleased to rise in the House today to talk about the appointment of Supreme Court justices, an issue of such importance that I even introduced a bill calling for these justices to be bilingual. I will have the opportunity to talk about that in my speech.

The motion calls on the government to take into account regional differences when appointing judges to the Supreme Court and to respect the custom of regional representation. I think that everyone in the House of Commons agrees with that, myself included.

The announcement that the Prime Minister of Canada made this summer caused much disappointment. Of course, we are happy that a committee has been set up to analyze judges' legal expertise and to ensure that they are bilingual and that they fully understand both official languages. Everyone was very pleased and the Prime Minister's announcement was met with praise on all sides.

However, my leader, the leader of the NDP, went to the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights to ask the minister what it means to be a bilingual judge. Does it mean that the judge can speak both official languages? The Minister of Justice vaguely answered that she did not know exactly what it means and that it may mean being able to understand but not necessarily speak both languages. That is very disappointing, and it is not at all the bilingualism that we expect of a Supreme Court justice.

We are very concerned about the Minister of Justice's response. I hope that the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Justice will address this situation, because it is unacceptable. We must consider what the Commissioner of Official Languages asked for. He asked that justices have the language skills required not only to understand French and English and to speak these languages, but also to understand the legal terminology every Supreme Court judge should master.

Like the Conservatives, we believe that customary regional representation must be maintained, and that is why we are talking about the Atlantic provinces now. We also believe that judges must be bilingual and that there should be legislation to that effect. I will talk about that shortly. Most importantly, this government must not make the same mistakes the Conservatives made.

Unfortunately, two unilingual anglophone justices were appointed. Other blunders included appointing a unilingual anglophone officer of Parliament. The Liberals made similar mistakes, such as appointing a unilingual anglophone House leader and a unilingual anglophone Speaker of the Senate. The Liberals have had their share of problems and have not always made the right choices.

That is why I want to talk about my bill, Bill C-203, which would amend the Supreme Court Act and introduce a new requirement for judges appointed to the Supreme Court to understand both official languages in accordance with the language skills criteria defined by the Commissioner of Official Languages.

This is extremely important because, when it comes to appointing Supreme Court justices, regional representation is certainly a factor, but we must not forget that, under the Official Languages Act, both languages have equal status. Neither is superior to the other; both are equal.

In our courts, particularly in the highest court in the land, it is to be expected that both official languages should be equal, but that cannot happen if the judges are not bilingual.

We have heard stories, and I am going to share one with you. This really happened, and it is disturbing.

A few years ago, a justice began making his argument in French before the other justices present. The presiding Supreme Court justice suddenly asked him if he could slow down because the interpreters could not keep up. I should point out that one has a limited amount of time to present one's argument. If justices cannot present their arguments at a normal, regular pace, or if they have to slow down, of course this can be problematic.

The interpreters do a wonderful job. I want to commend their work, because I know we also have interpreters working in the House of Commons. We also did a study on the Translation Bureau, and I want to emphasize that the bureau as a whole is doing an excellent job, much like our interpreters. However, as the name states, there can at times be some interpretation of what is said. They do the best they can to interpret the message properly, but it cannot be a word-for-word translation of every point in every sentence. In any case, that would not make sense. Interpretation is a magnificent art, but of course it is the art of interpreting the message.

When faced with something as important as any matter before the Supreme Court of Canada, that is, something of such gravity and critical importance to the entire country, there is no room for even the smallest mistake or tiniest difference between what is said and how it is understood. That is why it is extremely important that all justices understand both official languages.

I want to point out that I introduced Bill C-203 to amend the legislation on appointing judges in order to ensure that they are bilingual. Before that, the NDP did a lot of work on this. My dear colleague, Yvon Godin, is well known by those who have been in the House for many years. He fought for years to ensure that the judges appointed were bilingual. He introduced a bill in June 2008. He started again in November 2008, and in 2010, he introduced the very well constructed Bill C-232. It was more or less the same bill that I introduced. This bill was agreed to by a majority of the members of the House of Commons because the Liberals voted in favour of it. It ended up in the Senate, but unfortunately, the Conservative senators dragged out the process until the House adjourned and elections were called. Unfortunately, the bill died on the Order Paper.

The House did pass the bill, however. The elected members passed the bill. The Liberals are now in power and they are looking for any possible excuse not to pass this bill because it may be unconstitutional.

Why do the Liberals and my colleague, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada, not refer the bill to the Supreme Court for an opinion? Is this bill constitutional or not? Let us ask the Supreme Court for an opinion.

When we asked the experts whether the bill was unconstitutional, they all said they could not say. We have to ask the Supreme Court for an opinion.

We know that, in the past, the Conservatives unfortunately did not always appoint bilingual judges. Therefore, if we want to ensure that we continue to have bilingual Supreme Court justices, we definitely must pass a bill. That is why this bill must be passed. I hope that the Liberals will take this bill seriously and pass it to ensure that regional representation will finally be mandated, and also to ensure that both official languages are on an equal footing. They must be equal, and one cannot be held above the other. Canadians, regardless of whether they speak French or English in Canada, must be treated equally before the law, especially since the Supreme Court is the highest court in the land.

Supreme Court Act

[Robert Aubin, NDP, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I admit that the first question that came to mind when preparing this speech was the following: should I be pleased or disheartened by the prospect of speaking to a bill that, for the third time, is attempting to introduce common sense? We agree that the bill introduced by my colleague for Acadie—Bathurst is based on common sense.

At a time when politicians sometimes have a bad reputation for being opportunists, making promises that they do not keep and changing their tune depending on which way the wind is blowing, my colleague from Acadie—Bathurst is just what is needed to counter these hasty judgments or preconceptions. He is feisty and persistent, and he is not the sort of person to give up on his ideas when difficulties arise. Therefore, I wish to congratulate him for his efforts on behalf of the people he represents, the people of Acadie—Bathurst and especially, today, for his long fight for our country's two official languages and recognition of bilingualism in the federal government and Canada's major institutions. I am not referring to recognition just on paper, but in actual practice.

My colleague from Acadie—Bathurst has been a source of inspiration ever since I arrived in the House. When I was first assigned to be a member, with him, on the Standing Committee on Official Languages, he showed me everything that remains to be done in order to ensure that the spirit of the Official Languages Act becomes part of Canadians' reality. It is because of my colleague's efforts and his example of perseverance, that I have finally chosen to say that I am honoured to rise today to defend, with all the courage of my convictions, his bill, Bill C-208, An Act to amend the Supreme Court Act (understanding the official languages).

His bill would change the Supreme Court and create a new requirement for the appointment of Supreme Court justices. It is a very simple requirement, if it is one at all: to be able to listen to and understand anyone who appears before the Supreme Court, in the language of their choice, whether English or French, without the assistance of an interpreter.

As I just mentioned, this is my colleague's third attempt at seeing this initiative through. This legislative measure was introduced for the first time in June 2008 and the same bill was introduced in November 2008. Those who have been here for a while will probably remember that it was then Bill C-232, which was passed by the House of Commons. I want to emphasize the fact that it was passed by the House of Commons. Today, here we go again. Something is not right.

The bill was passed on March 31, 2010, but the Conservative senators used their majority in the Senate to block it until the election was called in March 2011. This is another example of unelected people blocking a bill that was passed by elected parliamentarians in the House of Commons. I think this needs no further comment.

Let us leave the Senate aside for now and come back to the essence of the bill. Why is it so essential for a judge to understand both official languages? There are many reasons, but I will focus mainly on the two that I consider to be the most important.

The first is equal justice. The Supreme Court, as we all know, is the highest court in the land and its nine justices are sometimes called to sit for the same case. It is rather unthinkable that some of them might not have exactly the same understanding of the arguments being made as the others who listen to and understand both official languages. The witnesses and other participants can speak in the language of their choice. That is a recognized and properly applied right. There are no problems there.

However, it is important that the judges understand the nuances of the testimonies. In law, often everything lies in the nuances. Simultaneous interpretation has its limits. We realize that every day in the House of Commons. The House interpreters do a tremendous job, but it is never as good as being able to listen to each speaker in their own language and understand all the subtleties.

Judges being bilingual, therefore, helps ensure that francophones and anglophones have equal access to justice. It gives them the assurance, not only that they will be heard, but above all, that they will be understood. When a case is in its final stage in the legal process, the assurance of that right should be guaranteed.

The second reason rests on the duality of our body of law in Canada. In Canada, all legislation exists in both official languages. Let us understand each other clearly. No statute adopted by this Parliament is first written in one language and then translated into the second. Statutes are drafted in both official languages at the same time, with the subtlety of each language's vocabulary and with neither language taking precedence over the other. If we have therefore considered it to be right and proper to have that kind of legislation in Parliament, those called upon to sit in judgment in support of that process must have the same ability.

Why are we proposing this bill? The bill introduced by the hon. member for Acadie—Bathurst is not before us in order to make the task of a Supreme Court judge even more complex. At the outset, I understand the traditional objection that we have heard each time this bill has been debated in the House. The question is always: will we be depriving ourselves of an eminently competent judge, who happens to have the disadvantage of being unilingual, given that simultaneous interpretation has all the limitations I mentioned just now?

My answer is very simple: yes. We should have to deprive ourselves of the services of a unilingual judge. To my recollection, we have never witnessed the appointment of a unilingual francophone judge. Please understand me. I am not saying that francophones have been treated differently. However, we have to recognize that, for a francophone, a knowledge of English is an essential part of legal training. It is precisely this fact that anglophones who aspire to a seat on the highest court in the land have to recognize. In Canada, French is an essential skill to qualify for that position. Period.

A prime minister who does not speak Canada's two official languages? Unthinkable. Well then, what about a Supreme Court judge? Should that not be just as important? Every time this bill comes up for discussion, it receives plenty of support across Canada. For example, the Barreau du Québec has repeatedly expressed its support for the bilingual Supreme Court judges bill. Here is what it says:

Bilingualism [it says] should be among a Supreme Court judge's required skills in order to ensure equal access to justice, and the Barreau du Québec's position in this regard is categorical.

Those words are strong, clear and precise. That says it all. Some might say that, obviously, Quebec, with its francophone majority, would want this. However, the same goes for other groups all over Quebec. For example, the Fédération des communautés francophones et acadienne also supports this bill just as categorically:

The FCFA believes that all citizens have a right to be heard and understood before the highest court of Canada in their official language of choice...

It is really the notion of being understood that is at the heart of my colleague's bill.

Lastly, the Commissioner of Official Languages, Graham Fraser, has said several times that he believes that Supreme Court judges should be bilingual.

What is the NDP doing when it comes to official languages? Not only is the bill sponsored by my colleague from Acadie—Bathurst an eloquent demonstration of the NDP's defence of the French fact, but we could also mention Bill C-315, which I had the pleasure of sponsoring and which deals with French in workplaces under federal jurisdiction, or that other bill that passed in the House and that now requires officers of Parliament to be bilingual before being appointed to the position.

In closing, I would say that, based on all the evidence, it is quite clear that the NDP is more than just the official opposition; it is also a party that makes proposals. We are a party full of proposals that, as I said in the beginning, make a lot of sense and speak not only to the spirit but also to the letter of the Official Languages Act.

The Supreme Court exists to serve Canadians, whether their first official language is French or English.

Unfortunately, I have to end it there, although I have so much more to say.

[Marie-Claude Morin, NDP, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to be speaking today in support of the bill introduced by my colleague from Acadie—Bathurst.

It is a real pleasure for me to support my colleague's bill that promotes real equality in the two official languages of our country.

The bill amends the Supreme Court Act and introduces a new requirement for judges appointed to the Supreme Court to understand English and French without the help of an interpreter.

I am not perfectly bilingual but I am working very hard on my English skills. It is important for me to work at the House of Commons in Canada's two official languages.

A person who stands before judges in the Supreme Court of Canada has a right to be heard and understood in his or her mother tongue.

This bill promotes equal access to justice. The Supreme Court is Canada’s highest court and its entire membership is occasionally called upon to hear certain cases. For the litigants, the ruling can have serious implications. Unilingual judges must rely on third parties to understand oral arguments and written submissions, which can be problematic at times and result in poor interpretation.

While I have the utmost respect for translators, I think we need to recognize that simultaneous interpretation and translation have their limits. The bilingualism requirement for judges ensures that francophones and anglophones have equal access to justice.

It is important for me to speak about equality, equality between francophones like me and anglophones. People who want to work in the most important judicial institution in our bilingual country must respect our two official languages.

The equality of French and English in Canada has been recognized by the Supreme Court. Since Canada’s laws exist independently in the two languages, fluency in both official languages should be a prerequisite for appointment to the Supreme Court, just as there are other mandatory requirements that a candidate must meet before becoming a judge.

The Supreme Court is there to serve Canadians, whether their first official language is French or English.

Canada's laws are not written in one language and then translated; rather, they are co-drafted in both official languages, and neither language takes precedence over the other.

This means that the body of Canadian legislation exists independently in both official languages. It is therefore essential for Supreme Court judges to understand legislation as it is written, in its duality, so they might apply it in its entirety, without infringing on the rights of the litigants.

I would remind the House of a few important facts that are worth pointing out. In 2009, all of the Conservatives, including francophone Conservatives, voted against this bill at second reading when it was Bill C-232. They also opposed the bill at third reading in May 2010. Despite the Conservatives' opposition, Bill C-232 passed in the House of Commons in 2010. However, the Conservative senators used their majority in the Senate to block it, which is absolutely appalling, until an election was called in March 2011.

In addition to opposing Bill C-232, the Conservative government showed its utter contempt for francophones by appointing two unilingual judges to the Supreme Court.

The Prime Minister must respect equality too, but he does not do that. We really have proof that the government does not care about the rights of francophones in our country.

Having unilingual judges is problematic when deliberations take place behind closed doors, that is, without the assistance of an interpreter.

Judges always have to communicate their opinions, ideas, and knowledge in their second language. Consequently, they run the risk of being much less accurate when they are not bilingual. When all judges are functionally proficient in both official languages, everyone can use their language of choice.

By sending the message that bilingualism is not important, the government is discouraging young Canadians, including young western Canadians, from learning French. The government must instead work with its provincial partners to encourage French language training by improving immersion programs and increasing support to post-secondary institutions so that future lawyers can acquire solid skills in their second language.

A number of people agree with the official opposition, and I would like to share some of their opinions with the House. The Commissioner of Official Languages, Graham Fraser, has spoken out a number of times in favour of having bilingual Supreme Court judges. The Barreau du Québec has repeatedly expressed its support of the bill on bilingual Supreme Court judges. I quote:

Bilingualism should be among a Supreme Court judge’s required skills in order to ensure equal access to justice, and the Barreau du Québec’s position in this regard is categorical.

It is a fundamental right to be heard by a judge in one of the two official languages.

The Fédération des communautés francophones et acadienne also supports this bill:

The FCFA believes that all citizens have a right to be heard and understood before the highest court of Canada in their official language of choice, without the assistance of an interpreter.

Serge Rousselle, a law professor at Moncton University specializing in language rights and past president of the Association des juristes d'expression française du Nouveau-Brunswick, also supports this bill:

Bilingualism is a required skill for Supreme Court judges. To fully grasp an oral argument in a field where the subtleties of one official language or the other can be critical, the importance of being understood directly by the members of this court, without the assistance of an interpreter, seems obvious.

I quoted a number of people whose opinions are similar to ours. I think it is very important for a Supreme Court judge to be bilingual. We must remember that people involved in the legal system have rights, have the right to be heard and, especially, have the right to be heard in the language of their choice—in their first language, whether that is French or English.

I would never put myself forward to be a Supreme Court judge. I do not have that ambition. I do not have the right education, of course, but I am also not bilingual. In a bilingual country like ours, someone who is highly trained and manages to become a judge, which is already a rather important and difficult job to get, also has the opportunity to learn a second language.

[Jamie Nicholls, NDP, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am very proud to rise today to express my support for Bill C-208.

This bill would amend the Supreme Court Act to require that only judges who can communicate well in French and English without the assistance of an interpreter be appointed to the Supreme Court.

I would like to begin by congratulating my hon. colleague, the member for Acadie—Bathurst, who is the NDP's official languages critic, for the remarkable diligence he demonstrated in introducing this bill.

I mention his remarkable diligence because, despite the Conservative government's opposition to this bill, my colleague never gave up. He kept fighting to ensure respect for linguistic equality before the courts for all Canadians, especially those who live in minority francophone communities.

This is my colleague's third attempt since 2008 to get this bill passed. Let us not forget that, four years ago, this same bill, known then as C-232, passed third reading. Despite the opposition of all Conservative members, including francophone Conservative members, my colleague managed to get Bill C-232 passed in the House of Commons. Unfortunately, the bill was blocked in the Senate by Conservative senators, some of whom were francophone, as incredible as that might seem.

The Senate and unelected senators blocked Bill C-232 until the March 2011 election was called. The bill would have protected the interests of Canada's linguistic minorities, but they let it die on the order paper. That is both shameful and an insult to democracy.

Fortunately, my colleague from Acadie—Bathurst will continue to work tirelessly to protect the rights of linguistic minorities. I can guarantee that he has the support of all NDP MPs and that, together, we will continue to fight to ensure respect for our two official languages from coast to coast.

The NDP is not alone in this fight. My colleague's bill has been praised and supported by many non-partisan stakeholders. For instance, the Commissioner of Official Languages, Graham Fraser, has said several times that he believes that Supreme Court judges should be bilingual; he also supported Bill C-232 in the previous Parliament.

According to the commissioner, any litigant appearing before the Supreme Court should have the right to be heard and understood by all the judges in either official language without the aid of an interpreter. The Barreau du Québec, the Fédération des communautés francophones et acadienne, the Fédération des associations de juristes d'expression française de common law, and a number of law professors also support the NDP's position on having bilingual Supreme Court judges.

However, the Conservative government has used every possible obstructive measure to undermine the NDP's efforts to have this bill passed, while claiming that they are looking after the language rights of French-language minority Canadians.

The simple fact that an issue of paramount importance like equality before the law is being raised in a private member's bill instead of in a government bill is an indication of how little importance the Conservative government attaches to the language rights of francophones.

In addition to appointing a unilingual anglophone Auditor General to Parliament, this government appointed two unilingual anglophone judges to the Supreme Court, Justice Rothstein and Justice Moldaver. In fact, there is a pool of highly qualified and fully bilingual judges, but the Conservative government pays no heed to that for partisan reasons.

The Conservatives seem to be forgetting that Canada was founded as a result of the hard work of two linguistic and cultural groups. Ignoring the right of francophones to have access to justice in their own language is betraying one of Canada's founding principles that is based on co-operation between the two linguistic communities.

Bilingualism and Canada go hand in hand, just like the traditions of British common law and French civil law go hand in hand. Denying the full equality of French in our courts is ignoring a fundamental principle of our nation. Our country's highest court must reflect Canada's bilingualism.

In addition to these matters of principle, there are also technical considerations with respect to the limitations of translation, which also point to the importance of having bilingual Supreme Court judges.

Surely it goes without saying that there are numerous nuances and subtleties in every language that can and often do get lost in translation. This is of crucial importance when matters of law and justice are concerned, especially at the Supreme Court level, the final court of appeal for all Canadians.

One significant problem lies in what Professor Ruth King, a member of the Department of Languages, Literatures and Linguistics at York University, refers to as code switches. Professor King defines code switches as sentences that use verbs to communicate opinions or belief. Statements such as “I think”, “I guess”, or “I believe” all work to underscore the speaker's stance or truth of the proposition and in some cases to indicate a degree of uncertainty.

King argues that terms such as these can be translated in French using words that can either enhance or diminish the degree to which the proposition is true. Based on her research, one can conclude that translators who translate between the French and English languages are likely to face problems in accurately conveying the meaning of a statement, not because those translators are bad at their job but because there are simply too many nuances and subtleties in both of our official languages to rely solely on translation when it comes to legal matters. Therefore, Canadians who have to rely on translation to make their case for justice are at an automatic disadvantage. The same applies to many other situations.

For example, if a test written in French is given to one who only speaks English, it is unlikely that person would be able to perform to the best of his or her ability, as relying on a translator would stand as an impediment. In 1998, Professor R.K. Hambleton performed a number of studies on the reliability and validity of tests administered across language and cultures. His research concluded that language did, in fact, play a significant factor in one's ability to perform well on a test. Hambleton suggests that despite the use of translators, when one is tested in a language that is not his or her own, the results are not an accurate representation of the person's knowledge.

Hambleton concludes that it is imperative for tests to be administered in one's native language in order to gain truly reflective results. Much like taking a test, trials rely on the interpretation of questions, by which judgments are based on one's response. If a question is answered incorrectly due to its interpretation, this poses a fundamental risk to the reliability and validity of a verdict. Simply requiring all judges to be fluent in both English and French can reduce such problems. By removing the language barrier, all Canadians, both English and French, will receive equal opportunities to a fair and reliable trial.

Therefore, the inherent limitations of translation requires judges to be able to communicate in both English and French in order to avoid any misinterpretations of vital information. Given the responsibilities and integrity of the Supreme Court of Canada, it is absolutely essential that any room for error be eliminated. If judges are required to speak both English and French as it is being proposed in this bill, the chance for misinterpretation might not be eliminated, but it would certainly be greatly reduced and go toward improving our trial process in the Supreme Court.

It is the responsibility of the House to ensure that the Supreme Court of Canada provides sound and equal treatment to all citizens of Canada. What is more, it is inexcusable to risk a Superior Court that cannot discern testimony with utmost accuracy and precision and fails to offer the optimal conditions for all those who seek justice.

In closing, I ask my colleagues from all political parties to rise above polarizing partisan divisions and make good use of this opportunity to restore the faith and respect Canadians once had for this great Parliament. As this House did with Bill C-419, let us work together to support this motion that seeks to uphold two of our most cherished, fundamental constitutional rights: equality before the law and equality of our two official languages.

I call on all members of the House, especially my Conservative colleagues across the way, to vote in favour of this motion and send the right message to all Canadians that we have respect for both official languages groups, that we have respect for those who are in minority situations to be understood in the highest court of law. I ask them to work with us to send this bill to the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights for further deliberation.

[Stéphane Dion, Liberal, Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC]

Mr. Speaker, as Liberal critic for official languages, following my colleague, the hon. member for Charlottetown and the Liberal justice critic, I am pleased to second Bill C-208, An Act to amend the Supreme Court Act (understanding the official languages), introduced by our colleague, the member for Acadie—Bathurst.

This bill would require that in the future anyone appointed to the Supreme Court have a command of both official languages and be able to understand them without the assistance of an interpreter. The bill is not retroactive and therefore sitting judges would remain on the bench.

Under the Official Languages Act, every federal court is required to ensure that the language chosen by the parties during proceedings is understood by the judge, or other officers who hear any given proceedings, without the assistance of an interpreter. There is one exception, though: the Supreme Court. In practice, this bill would put an end to this exception.

The Liberal Party has been a long-time champion of language rights, linguistic duality and the exercise of the Official Languages Act.

The Liberals also have no problems supporting this bill given that we introduced a similar bill ourselves, in 2007-08, during the 39th Parliament. This was Bill C-548, amending the Official Languages Act to extend the requirement to understand both official languages to justices of the Supreme Court of Canada. The bill was introduced by the hon. member for Bourrassa at the time, the Hon. Denis Coderre, the new mayor of Montreal. I recall that bill as I had the honour of being the leader of the official opposition at the time.

More than five years later, let us hope that this time will be the right time and that this Parliament will give French-speaking Canadians the assurance that they will be understood by the nine most important judges in our legal system.

And why would this Parliament not give that assurance to the country's francophones? Is it not high time to do so, 45 years after the Official Languages Act was passed?

Those who oppose this bill claim that the selection of judges must be a matter of competence only. However, adequate command of both official languages is precisely part of the competence required to be fully able to treat all Canadians fairly.

Both the Commissioner of Official Languages and the Minister of Justice confirmed that we now have a big enough pool of bilingual jurists from across the country who fully meet the appropriate standard of merit and legal excellence to appoint bilingual judges to the Supreme Court. Clearly, this pool will grow bigger every year if Parliament sends young Canadian lawyers the message that bilingualism is a requisite if they wish to reach the top of the Canadian legal system.

Our judges must always prove their worth in terms of knowledge of the law, judgment, work habits, ability to write and communicate, honesty, concern for fairness and social conscience, but they must also be bilingual.

We are not here to criticize the unilingual judges of the past, some of whom were great legal minds who did wonderful things for the cause of French and official language minorities in Canada. At one time we had British judges and they too did great things, but that did not stop us from wanting Canadian judges.

It is therefore reasonable to say that the judges of the past would have been even better equipped had they been able to understand the language of Molière or Vigneault.

The need is there. About 30% of the documentation that Supreme Court judges need to study is in French. Judges who cannot read French have to rely on the summaries provided by clerks, who are often talented but of course have neither the skill nor experience that a judge has.

During hearings, unilingual judges have to follow debate using simultaneous interpretation. No matter how good it is, there can be errors, misunderstandings or inaccuracies. When judges speak among themselves about cases before them, only one of them needs to be unilingual for all the discussions to, inevitably, be held in English, even for cases where most of the documentation is in French. In practice, French-speaking judges are required to write their drafts in English.

Opponents of Bill C-208 who state that requiring bilingualism would undermine the competence of judges must know that this is precisely the argument that was used against the adoption of the Official Languages Act. Parliament of 1969 did not let this objection stop it, and everyone takes the credit today. Therefore, let us be inspired by the wisdom of the members who came before us.

Not surprisingly, support for this bill is coming in from all sides.

Of course, the National Assembly of Quebec, the Commissioner of Official Languages, Mr. Graham Fraser, the Fédération des communautés francophones et acadienne du Canada, and the Quebec Community Groups Network all support Bill C-232. Also the Canadian Bar Association adopted a resolution in support of institutional bilingualism at the Supreme Court of Canada during its annual meeting in August 2010.

L'Association des juristes d'expression française du Canada de common law adopted a resolution in 2010 affirming its support for Bill C-232. The Quebec Bar Association supports this bill. In 2010, the president of the Young Bar Association of Montréal stated:

Functional bilingualism must be a minimum competency and not limited to being simply a consideration…

I would like to provide other support, but my time is short.

Voting for this bill is betting on Canada, a country that is lucky to have two official languages that are international languages, big windows on the world; a country that is lucky to have two legal systems, the civil code and common law, which allows it to share the legal traditions of 80% of countries around the world.

With this bill, we will ensure that this increased strength that our bilingualism and bijuralism bring us will become part of the highest court in our legal system and will help our Supreme Court become one of the most respected in the world.

[Marjolaine Boutin-Sweet, NDP, Hochelaga, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am very proud to rise today to speak to Bill C-208, which was introduced by the hon. member for Acadie—Bathurst. I know how important official languages are to him and to the vast majority of francophones from one end of this country to the other, myself included.

To begin, I would like to congratulate him for bringing back this bill. I would also like to thank him for how passionately he defends our shared mother tongue and our country's official language minority communities.

This bill would amend the Supreme Court Act and introduce a new requirement for judges appointed to the country's highest court to understand both official languages without the assistance of an interpreter.

For the NDP, this bill is primarily about equality—equal access to justice and the equality of our country's two official languages.

As my colleagues have said, the NDP is the only party that is proposing meaningful action to promote and protect the equality of Canada's two official languages. It is also the only party that is proposing initiatives to enhance the vitality of official language minority communities.

Not only is this the member for Acadie—Bathurst's third attempt to get Parliament to ratify this principle, but this initiative is also closely aligned with Bill C-419 on bilingualism requirements for officers of Parliament, which was introduced by my colleague from Louis-Saint-Laurent and received royal assent last June.

I would like to take this opportunity to congratulate my colleague from Louis-Saint-Laurent on this unprecedented victory and all of his hard work on this file.

I hope the Conservative members have finally understood the importance of protecting language rights, and I hope they will support this important bill despite what we have heard today.

This is the third time that my colleague from Acadie—Bathurst has introduced this bill since 2008. The last time we debated it in the House, members passed it on March 31, 2010.

Why are we debating it again today? The answer is simple but distressing. Unelected, unaccountable senators in the Conservative caucus who do not represent Canadians blocked this bill for a full year until the March 2011 election. As a result, Bill C-232 died on the order paper.

That is another good reason to abolish that archaic and completely undemocratic institution. To all those who argue that the Senate and senators serve the interests of Canada's linguistic minorities, well, we can forget about that.

One important fact is that when Bill C-232 was passed in the House of Commons in May 2010, the Conservatives had a minority government. All the Conservative members, including the francophone Conservative members, voted against the bill. That is shameful. However, since the opposition voted to support the bill, it managed to pass in the House.

I do not need to paint a picture to explain to people that, considering that outcome, someone must have received a call from the Prime Minister's Office instructing the government's friends in the upper chamber to do everything in their power to throw a monkey wrench into the plans and obstruct the democratic will of this House, which is filled with the elected representatives of the Canadian people. Accordingly, we are trying again.

Many groups and individuals have expressed their support for the amendment to the Supreme Court Act that is proposed in Bill C-208.

Graham Fraser, the Commissioner of Official Languages, is one of them. When he released his annual report on November 7, 2013, he stated:

There have also been a few outcomes during my tenure that I would characterize as conspicuous failures. For example, the government failed to see the importance of having bilingual Supreme Court judges. I have given my support to Bill C-232, which sought to amend the Supreme Court of Canada Act, as I firmly believe that any litigant appearing before the Supreme Court should have the right to be heard and understood by all the judges in either official language without the aid of an interpreter.

Other stakeholders, such as the Barreau du Québec, the Fédération des communautés francophones et acadienne du Canada, the Fédération des associations de juristes d'expression française de common law, the Association des juristes d'expression française du Nouveau-Brunswick, and Sébastien Grammond, dean of the faculty of law at the University of Ottawa, have said they support my colleague's bill.

They all agree that this is a matter of equal access to justice, and they acknowledge the importance of being understood in the official language of our choice by the highest court in the land, without a third party interpreting our words, which can lead to interpretations that are inconsistent with what was really said.

As a Quebecker, I would like to add that it is particularly important to my constituents that the highest court in the land understand both our national language and our civil law tradition.

I am troubled by the comments made by those who oppose this bill. Some believe that the condition of understanding both official languages without the aid of an interpreter would be an obstacle to appointing the best people to fill this role, those who merit the position the most. That argument would suggest that there are not enough qualified bilingual judges to serve as Supreme Court judges. That argument is simply wrong.

A study conducted in 2011 by professors Mark Power and Sébastien Grammond showed that, even if Quebec is excluded, 25% of the 124 judges who serve on provincial appeals courts and the Federal Court of Appeal can hear a case in French without the aid of an interpreter. Are we not capable of finding a judge in that group worthy of serving on the Supreme Court?

The NDP believes that to become a Supreme Court judge, one must have all the necessary skills, including the ability to understand Canada's two official languages.

Not only did the members opposite vote against Bill C-232, but the Conservative government appointed two unilingual judges, Justices Moldaver and Rothstein, to the Supreme Court. I do not know if that was out of partisanship or contempt for francophones, but it is clearly unacceptable, not just to us, but to all francophones in Canada, whether they are Quebeckers or members of a francophone minority community.

Even the new Minister of Canadian Heritage and Official Languages has said that the appointment of bilingual judges to the Supreme Court of Canada is not essential.

As Chantal Hébert rightly said in an article entitled “Bilingualism at the Supreme Court for dummies” published in the April 2010 issue of L'actualité:

The fact is that refusing to make the ability to function in both official languages a selection criterion for Supreme Court justices makes English the main language of an institution...at the heart of public life in Canada...

If the Prime Minister had not been able to address Canadians in both official languages and had not rectified the situation in a timely manner, he never would have been elected Prime Minister. That might have been better for the country, but we will talk about that again during the election campaign.

The same is true for the Minister of Industry and the Minister of Employment and Social Development, since they are both in the running to replace the current Prime Minister after he loses the election in 2015.

I am already hearing grumbling from my colleagues opposite, who will probably try to claim that under the current system, a unilingual francophone judge could also be appointed to the Supreme Court. My response to that is simple. In more than 145 years, not once has a judge who speaks and understands only French been appointed to the highest court in the country. Never.

Never in Canada's history have we nominated a French unilingual judge to the Supreme Court of Canada. Never.

At this point, Mr. Speaker, through you, I would like to address my colleagues who need an interpretation to understand what I have been saying in my mother tongue.

First, the laws of this country are not written in English and then translated. They are written simultaneously and independently in both languages.

Second, the Supreme Court of Canada is the very last legal recourse that a person has.

Third, as highly qualified as interpreters are, and here I would like to salute the House of Commons interpreters for their difficult and professional work, every language has its subtleties, particularly legalese.

Let me give an example. At a recent event, someone used the phrase “invités de marque”, which I would translate as important visitors or VIPs. It was translated as “Mark's guests”. That type of mistake, which completely changes the meaning of the sentence, could be costly in a court of law, particularly when it is one's last recourse.

I hope that my Conservative colleagues from Quebec will listen to reason this time and will remember where they come from. With the bill on bilingualism of officers of Parliament, they have already shown that it is possible to work together to promote Canada's official languages.

It is possible to do the same with the bill to require that Supreme Court justices be bilingual.

[Hélène Laverdière, NDP, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, it is a huge privilege to co-sponsor the bill introduced by my colleague and, I would even say, my friend, the member for Acadie—Bathurst, and to speak to it today.

This bill would require that all Supreme Court justices be bilingual, which goes to the very heart of our democracy. Equal access to justice for all is a fundamental aspect of democracy. To ensure that everyone, without exception, has equal access to justice, justices of the Supreme Court—the highest court in this country and the court of last resort—must be able to hear arguments and read documents associated with a case or the evidence without the help of interpreters or translators.

Let us be clear. I have the utmost admiration for interpreters. Listening to something and interpreting it has to be one of the hardest jobs in the world. I have a particular fondness for translators, since I used to work in translation.

That said, even a translator would say that translation is the art of fudging. It is not an exact science. I have some real examples. Michel Doucet, a law professor at the Université de Moncton and an expert in language rights, argued a case before the Supreme Court. A few weeks later, by chance, he heard the arguments he had made in French being played in English on CPAC. Here is what he had to say about it:

The translation did not allow me to understand my own words. I wonder how justices can fully understand the matter at hand when they have to go through translation in which significant aspects of a submission are missing. When you win 9:0, there is no problem, but when you lose 5 to 4, you automatically wonder whether you should not have argued in English.

It is essentially a matter of principle. Canada's laws are not written in one language and then translated into the other. They are drafted at the same time in both official languages, and neither version takes precedence over the other. I think it is important for Supreme Court justices to be able to hear francophones in their own language, to read the law in that language and also to understand the tradition of civil law in Quebec.

We in the NDP are not the only ones saying so. The Commissioner of Official Languages, Graham Fraser, has said several times that he believes that Supreme Court judges should be bilingual. When he released his 2012-13 report, he stated:

There have also been a few outcomes during my tenure that I would characterize as conspicuous failures. For example, the government failed to see the importance of having bilingual Supreme Court judges. I have given my support to Bill C-232, which sought to amend the Supreme Court of Canada Act, as I firmly believe that any litigant appearing before the Supreme Court should have the right to be heard and understood by all the judges in either official language without the aid of an interpreter.

The Barreau du Québec has also repeatedly reiterated its support for the bill on bilingual judges:

Bilingualism...should be among a Supreme Court judge's required skills in order to ensure equal access to justice, and the Barreau du Québec’s position in this regard is categorical.

I mentioned Bill C-232 and said that the Barreau du Québec has repeatedly reiterated its support for the bill on bilingual Supreme Court judges because this is not the first time this subject has been discussed.

Indeed, in 2008, my hon. colleague from Acadie—Bathurst introduced a similar bill, Bill C-232, which I mentioned a few moments ago, also calling for a bilingualism requirement for Supreme Court judges. This has been quite a battle. I did not have the honour of representing Laurier—Sainte-Marie at the time, when the Conservatives had a minority government. Finally, in 2010, despite the obstruction and opposition of Conservative members, including those from Quebec or ridings with large francophone populations, the bill passed. However, when it was sent to the Senate, the senators quashed it. I would like to make a very important point in passing in that regard.

Every time I hear that story or a similar one, it breaks my heart. It breaks my heart when democratically elected members vote in favour of a bill, then the Senate, whose members are appointed rather than democratically elected, has the gall to defeat the bill on purely partisan grounds, even though it deals with an issue as crucial as access to justice for all. This is fundamentally wrong and should not be allowed. It is yet another reason to abolish the Senate. The Senate is supposed to represent the regions, but how well did it represent Quebec and other regions where there are many francophones when it made that decision?

Finally, I would like to point out that this bill espouses the same logic as the bill on bilingualism for officers of Parliament put forward by my colleague from Louis-Saint-Laurent. I must say, in fact, that I take some pride in being a member of the only party that goes beyond empty rhetoric and takes concrete steps to better protect and promote our country's official languages.

Promoting and protecting official languages goes beyond the appointment of Supreme Court judges. If we send the message that people do not have to be bilingual to hold a senior position in the federal system, that being unilingual is perfectly all right, how does that encourage young Canadians to learn the other official language? Such a message would discourage, rather than encourage them.

What fate awaits that bill now, I do not know. The comments I have heard from the other side of the House have me very concerned. There have been other attempts to push for the bilingualism of Supreme Court judges. As my colleague from Acadie—Bathurst pointed out, if it does not work this time, we will make it work in 2015 when we form the government.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

moved that Bill C-208, An Act to amend the Supreme Court Act (understanding the official languages), be read the second time and referred to a committee.

Mr. Speaker, I am proud to rise for the third time in the House to speak to Bill C-208, which would require Supreme Court justices to be bilingual so that they can respond to Canadian citizens.

Thirteen years ago, on February 28, two hours before I made a speech in the House of Commons about taxes on mechanics' tools, I was thinking that my grandson Jonathan, who was born two days later, might one day use these tools if he decided to become a mechanic.

Today, as I wish Jonathan a happy birthday, I hope that my other grandson and my granddaughter will be able to be heard in the official language of their choice, which is French, if they ever need to go to the Supreme Court.

Today, my New Democrat colleagues and I are back with my Bill C-208, which would make being bilingual in French and English a new condition for appointing justices to the Supreme Court of Canada.

This is my third attempt to get this initiative passed. In 2010, this bill, known at the time as Bill C-232, was passed by the House of Commons. To my great disappointment, the Conservative senators used their majority in the Senate to block the bill. The bill then died on the order paper when the 2011 election was called.

The Conservatives have repeatedly shown their contempt for official languages by appointing two unilingual anglophone justices to the Supreme Court and by appointing a unilingual auditor general.

The NDP thinks that there is another way to do things. The NDP is the only party that is proposing concrete measures to promote and protect our official languages. Thanks to the NDP, the House recently passed Bill C-419, which corrects the Conservatives' mistake by ensuring that officers of Parliament will now have to be bilingual when they are appointed. It is time for us to make understanding both official languages an essential condition of being appointed to the Supreme Court.

I would like to speak to the importance of this bill. This is a question of access to justice. The Supreme Court is the highest court in the country, and it is very important that the justices be able to understand both official languages without the help of an interpreter. I have the utmost respect for the work of interpreters, but we know that interpretation has its limits. Numerous lawyers have noticed errors and omissions in the interpretation of their arguments before the Supreme Court.

I am thinking, in particular, about Michel Doucet, a law professor at the Université de Moncton, the former dean of the law faculty at the university and a language rights expert. He spoke to the issue when he appeared before the Standing Committee on Official Languages:

In the week after I had argued a case before the Supreme Court, I had an opportunity to hear the English version of my arguments on CPAC, and I understood why I had lost the case five to four. The translation did not allow me to understand my own words. I wonder how justices can fully understand the matter at hand when they have to go through translation in which significant aspects of a submission are missing. When you win 9:0, there is no problem, but when you lose 5 to 4, you automatically wonder whether you should not have argued in English.

There are many examples of questionable interpretation at the Supreme Court. A lawyer arguing his case before the court mentioned a Monsieur Saint-Coeur and the interpreter rendered it as “Mr. Five O'clock”. Even the Commissioner of Official Languages, Graham Fraser, has weighed in on the importance of understanding the arguments presented without the help of an intermediary.

In June 2009, he told members of the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights:

Given the complexity and the extreme importance of the cases heard by this court, judges should be able to hear arguments presented to them without using an interpreter to understand nuanced and complex legal arguments.

According to Sébastien Grammond, Dean of the Faculty of Law at the University of Ottawa, interpretation may lead to “loss of precision which, in some cases, can even involve the omission of certain sentences”.

This loss of precision can also be found in the documents submitted by the parties to the proceedings. These documents are not translated by the court. Unilingual judges must rely on the briefs prepared by court clerks, who are often young lawyers with little legal experience.

The presence of unilingual judges on the bench of the Supreme Court also poses a problem during closed-door deliberations without an interpreter. Francophone judges must always express their opinions, ideas and knowledge in their second language. Therefore, there is a risk that they will be much less precise.

If the justices can function in both official languages, everyone can work in the language of their choice. The bilingualism of judges is therefore a question of the equality of francophones and anglophones in terms of access to justice.

The bilingualism of Supreme Court justices ensures the equality of both official languages.

We have to remember that the Supreme Court has recognized the equality of French and English.

Laws are drafted in both official languages. Both versions have the same weight and neither one takes precedence over the other.

Our language duality is part of our Canadian identity. We have to embrace it.

Is there substantive equality when a francophone appears before the Supreme Court? The Supreme Court is not there to reward ambitious lawyers or judges. It is there to dispense justice for all Canadians.

Serving on the Supreme Court is not a right, but having fair access to justice is a right. Remember that the court is there to serve Canadians, not the interests of the judge.

The issue of requiring Supreme Court judges to be bilingual has been debated for several years.

I think it is wrong for francophones to have to make themselves understood by unilingual judges through the filter of interpretation, especially before the highest court in the land.

If Canada's two official languages are to be truly equal, it is important that bilingualism be an essential requirement when judges are appointed to the Supreme Court.

Lastly, my bill would ensure that the Supreme Court can serve all Canadians equally, whether their mother tongue is English or French.

The Commissioner of Official Languages, Graham Fraser, who is highly respected by all Canadians, has said several times that he supports requiring Supreme Court judges to be bilingual.

The Barreau du Québec has supported this bill for years now:

The Barreau has always believed that functional bilingualism should be among a Supreme Court judge's required skills in order to ensure equal access to justice, and it deplores that even today federal legislation has no provisions requiring that the nine Supreme Court judges be proficient in both official languages.

Many stakeholders in the official languages community support my bill, particularly the Fédération des communautés francophones et acadienne and its members:

The FCFA believes that all citizens have a right to be heard and understood before the highest court of Canada in their official language of choice, without the assistance of an interpreter.

Lastly, various linguistic rights experts have spoken out in favour of my bill, including Sébastien Grammond, Dean of Civil Law at the University of Ottawa, Gérard Lévesque, a very well-known lawyer for language rights, and Serge Rousselle and Michel Doucet, both law professors at the Université de Moncton.

Let me remind members that the NDP is the only party that proposes concrete measures to advance Canada's linguistic duality.

Bill C-419 on the mandatory bilingualism of officers of Parliament, introduced by my colleague, was passed by the House of Commons in 2013.

Let us not forget that the Quebec City marine rescue sub-centre remained open thanks to the pressure that my NDP colleagues and I put on the Conservative government, which intended to close this centre, the only French-language marine rescue centre in Canada.

The Conservative government has not shown any respect toward our official languages. I want to remind the House that it is the Prime Minister who appointed two unilingual judges to the Supreme Court. It is also the Conservative government that appointed a unilingual Auditor General to Parliament. Even the minister responsible for official languages is not in favour of my bill. Her riding of Saint Boniface, in Manitoba, includes thousands of francophones. What an insult to that community.

I also want to remind the members opposite that this former bill, Bill C-232, was passed by the House of Commons in 2010.

All the Conservative members voted against that bill, even the members from Quebec and those who have francophone communities in their ridings, such as the members for Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe and Madawaska—Restigouche. Despite the opposition of the Conservative members, Bill C-232 was passed by the House of Commons; however, the unelected Conservative senators, including a number of francophones, held up the bill until the 2011 election was called.

The majority of the members in the House of Commons, who were elected by Canadians, voted in favour of this bill, but the unelected senators defeated the bill. Do not try to tell me that the Senate stands up for linguistic minorities.

In closing, I ask the members of all the parties to support this bill so that it can move along and be considered at the Standing Committee of Justice and Human Rights. We must protect the equality of our two official languages and equal access to justice.

In particular, I am calling on the Conservative members from Quebec and the members who have francophone communities in their ridings, such as the members for Madawaska—Restigouche, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, and Saint Boniface, to pressure their colleagues to support my bill, which seeks to ensure that the Supreme Court judges are bilingual.

If the Conservatives thought that bilingualism was necessary for becoming an officer of Parliament, then there is no reason why they should not do the same for the judges who sit on the benches of the highest court in the land.

The bill is a matter of justice and equality.

It is a matter of justice and equality.

Canadians have the right—it is more than just a privilege—to appear before a judge at the Federal Court of Canada and be heard and understood in the language of their choice. The same applies to the Federal Court of Appeal. It should also apply to the Supreme Court, the highest court in the country.

I was at the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights this week, and I asked officials from the Department of Justice whether there are enough bilingual judges in each province. If Canadians were to read the committee minutes, they would see that the response was yes. I then asked whether there are a lot of judges, and they said that there are enough.

I am waiting to hear the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Justice tell us that the pool is not big enough, even though officials from his own department clearly told us in committee that it is a big pool. They told us that there are enough bilingual judges in every province.

I hope that the Conservatives will support my bill and bilingualism in Canada.

[Graham Fraser, Commissioner of Official Languages, Office of the Commissioner of Official Languages]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Chair and members of the committee, good afternoon. Bonjour.

I'm particularly pleased to be here today to share a few of my thoughts on my 2012-13 annual report, which I tabled in Parliament on November 7.

First, I'd like to recognize the recently re-elected chair of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Official Languages, the Honourable Michael Chong. Mr. Chair, I'm confident your knowledge of our official languages and your invaluable leadership on key issues such as bilingual education will serve the committee well in its deliberations during this current session of Parliament.

This past February, Prime Minister Stephen Harper asked me to stay on as Commissioner of Official Languages for an additional three years. I was honoured to accept. Over the course of my first mandate as commissioner, one of the questions that I have often received is the most general and difficult one: how are we doing in terms of official bilingualism? The answer is often unsatisfying—it depends.

My seventh and latest annual report will attempt to explain that answer in some detail. The report was conceived as a summary of my seven years as the Commissioner of Official Languages. Even though my mandate has been extended for another three years, I feel this has been a useful exercise to examine the progress—or lack of progress—made during these past seven years.

As I begin my second term, I can look back on the successful outcomes that have resulted from our investigations and proactive interventions. Seven years ago my investigation into complaints by official language minority communities following the abolition of the court challenges program of Canada, and my subsequent seeking of intervenor status before the Federal Court, showed that the government had not respected its obligations under part VII of the Official Languages Act. Mobilization by these communities resulted in an out-of-court settlement that established the language rights support program.

Last year my investigation of the appointment of a unilingual Auditor General added credence to a private member's bill that was passed unanimously by Parliament and now requires all agents of Parliament to be bilingual at the moment of their appointment.

In addition, my office's collaborative work with federal institutions and the organizing committee of the Vancouver 2010 Olympic Winter Games led to a very successful event presented in both official languages, with the unfortunate exception of the cultural component of the opening ceremonies. The invaluable lessons learned from this experience resulted in the production of a practical guide to promoting official languages for any organization hosting a major sporting event in Canada.

This past summer Canada Games organizers in Sherbrooke used the guide and were clearly successful in promoting both official languages during this national event, proof that we have made great strides.

I can also point to our investigation into the decision to move the Quebec City Marine Rescue Sub-Centre to Trenton and Halifax, which led to the postponement of the move until emergency services on the St. Lawrence could be guaranteed in French.

As well, when CBC/Radio-Canada's decision to eliminate virtually all local programming at French language radio station CBEF, in Windsor, generated 876 complaints in 2009-2010, I asked the Federal Court whether I have the jurisdiction to investigate such complaints. This was confirmed by the court in a preliminary decision.

There have also been a few outcomes during my ten years that I would characterize as conspicuous failures. For example, the government failed to see the importance of having bilingual Supreme Court judges. I have given my support to Bill C-232, which sought to amend the Supreme Court of Canada Act, as I firmly believe that any litigant appearing before the Supreme Court should have the right to be heard and understood by all the judges in either official language without the aid of an interpreter.

This year, my office completed a study on the bilingual capacity of the superior court judiciary, which I presented at the Canadian Bar Association's legal conference in August. This marked the first time I worked on a joint project with my provincial counterparts in New Brunswick and Ontario. The impact of this study and its recommendations are crucial for Canadians who would use the court system. This is why we are urging the Minister of Justice to act quickly on the recommendations in the study, in close collaboration with his provincial and territorial counterparts as well as with the chief justices of the superior court.

When I first came aboard in 2006 there were some pleasant surprises. I found that there was much less resistance to the Official Languages Act inside federal institutions than I had expected, but from time to time there are incidents that indicate that officials simply don't understand what it means to have two official languages with equal status.

Last month, there was an incident here on the Hill that I must admit I found completely unacceptable. A briefing for parliamentarians on Bill C-4, the omnibus bill, was made available only in English. An MP complained, officials objected, and another MP complained that he didn't understand the conversation. The briefing was delayed for a day.

Frankly, I thought that unilingual briefings had gone the way of typewriters and that “French to follow” was a thing of the past. I thought that Parliament's unanimous decision to ensure that agents of Parliament were bilingual was recognition that Canadians, not to mention parliamentarians, have an absolute right to equal quality of service in the official language of their choice. The fact that a member of Parliament even had to ask for a briefing in French in 2013, 55 years after simultaneous interpretation was introduced into the House of Commons and 50 years after the launch of the Royal Commission on Bilingualism and Biculturalism, is deeply disappointing.

Despite these embarrassing lapses, most federal institutions and most public servants want to do the right thing. Sometimes they simply have trouble getting the tools they need and developing the reflexes to use them. To do our part, my office developed online tools for federal institutions and employees, including a self-assessment tool for managers to evaluate whether their behaviour supports the use of both languages in the workplace and, more recently, a tool to develop effective language training practices.

There have also been some disappointments. The complaints I've received, coupled with the findings of our various studies and audits, tell me that much remains to be done in order to meet the obligations and the spirit of the act fully. When federal employees provide services to Canadians, active offer is still the exception, not the rule. It also remains difficult for air travellers to be served in the official language of their choice in Canadian airports. Too often, people have to ask, and, too often when they do, they face incomprehension or delays.

In the public sector, it's quite common for leaders to say a few words in French and then continue uninterrupted in English, as if the use of French at a public event were merely a symbolic gesture rather than the natural expression of a Canadian language. Even here in Ottawa, I get the feeling that speakers, even if they are bilingual, are hesitant to speak French in public.

As well, federal institutions have been uncertain about how to take positive measures for the growth and development of official language minority communities, as required by the 2005 amendment to the Official Languages Act.

Five years ago, the government issued its Roadmap for Linguistic Duality, which expired this year and was replaced with the Roadmap for Canada's Official Languages, which runs through to 2018. During this time, we have experienced a period of financial instability, heavy federal investment in infrastructure projects, the Strategic and Operating Review and the Deficit Reduction Action Plan.

Generally speaking, official languages have not been targeted, but there has been collateral damage and unintended consequences for official languages stemming from closures and cutbacks. The result has been a subtle erosion of bilingualism through the transfer of federal offices from bilingual to unilingual regions, the reduction of language skill levels required for bilingual positions, the pressure on public servants to produce documents in English only, and the regular failure to offer a sufficient number of training programs in French.

We also see the posting of senior management positions where both official languages are described as an asset rather than a requirement, or described as a requirement and then not considered as such. The consequence of all this is a quiet undermining of the use of both languages in the workplace, and of the ability to offer services in English and French.

My work over the past seven years has shown me how much leadership matters in federal institutions. As commissioner, I will continue to stress the importance of second language learning, whether in our universities or in the public service, and I will continue to position the use of both official languages as a key leadership competency.

What lies ahead in the field of official languages? What challenges will need to be addressed over the next three years of my mandate?

Immigration and the demographic change it brings are critical issues for minority-language communities and for the country.

Social media will continue to transform the way that government deals with citizens. Essentially, the public expectation for an immediate response in either official language is greater than ever. Social media represent both significant challenges and tremendous opportunities in terms of language policy.

We know the Pan American Games will take place in Toronto in the summer of 2015, as well as a series of major anniversary events leading up to the 150th anniversary of Confederation in 2017. This is an opportunity for renewed engagement and leadership from the federal government. Throughout the planning stages and delivery of these events, it will be critical to respect the needs of both official language communities.

As reflected in my annual report, I've made recommendations in the following six areas: language training in federal institutions; the “Roadmap for Canada's Official Languages 2013-2018”, specifically the need for a new management and accountability framework; immigration policies and their impact on francophone minority communities; initiatives to raise the level of bilingualism among Canadians and reverse the decline in bilingualism among anglophones; the bilingual capacity of our superior court judiciary; and the impact of budget cuts on federal institutions' abilities to respect their obligations.

I believe we're now past the point where Canadians are shocked to hear the other language. This became quite evident to me this summer at the Canada Games in Sherbrooke. Both languages were used interchangeably during the opening ceremonies and elicited similar responses from those in attendance. Our official languages are a defining characteristic of our Canadian identity. We need to feel that both languages belong to us and are part of our sense of national identity, even if we don't speak one of them.

One challenge that remains, I feel, is for all of us to embrace fully linguistic duality as a core Canadian value, no matter what language we speak. As the committee begins a new session, it will no doubt be considering where to focus its work. I have raised a number of issues, including those areas where I made recommendations. I hope the committee finds this useful in determining which topics are deserving of its attention.

On that note, Mr. Chair, I will conclude my remarks and be pleased to answer any questions you and your colleagues may have.

Senate Reform Act

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Madam Speaker, I am very happy to be speaking to the Senate reform bill.

First, let me say that I am very disappointed that the government has put up no speakers. I wonder just how important this bill is to the Conservatives if they have nothing to say.

As members know, New Democrats have long advocated for abolishing the Senate. This has been our position since the 1930s. Very recent polling shows that Canadians are open to having a closer examination of the value of the Senate in the 21st century and that we should carefully look at Senate abolition because it is achievable and it is a balanced solution.

The NDP believes that the Senate is a 19th century institution, an anachronism that is unnecessary in a modern 21st century democracy like Canada's. Senators only sit 90 days of the year and they cost taxpayers over $90 million annually. The Muskoka minister's $50 million pales in comparison. Democracies such as Denmark and New Zealand have long since eliminated their outdated senates. This decision was also undertaken many years ago by our own provincial governments. There are many who support the NDP position, including the premiers of several provinces.

For example, the premier of British Columbia, Christy Clark, stated in May of this year:

I support abolishing the Senate. I don't think the Senate plays a useful role. I think that they've outlived their usefulness to our country.

Ontario Premier Dalton McGuinty echoed Ms. Clark's comments:

We think the simplest thing to do is abolish it, and I think, frankly, to reform it in any substantive way is just not possible. We have one elected accountable body that sits in Ottawa for us in the House of Commons. I just don't think we need a second, unelected, unaccountable body.

Even Conservative-friendly premiers condemn the Prime Minister's recent patronage appointments.

Saskatchewan Premier Brad Wall said, “It takes away momentum for change at the provincial level and it will probably increase calls that we hear from time to time saying, 'Do we really need this institution?'”

The Senate has become a repository of failed candidates, party fundraisers and professional organizers. These taxpayer subsidized Conservative senators even torpedo legislation passed by the elected members of Parliament. We are talking about bills passed by elected and accountable members of Parliament, such as the late Jack Layton's private member's bill to ensure action on climate change. Also, there was the member for Ottawa Centre's private member's bill to provide affordable AIDS drugs to those suffering in Africa. Both bills were killed by the Senate.

Both of these bills were extremely important and valuable not only to Canadians, but to people around the world. These bills were an opportunity for Canada to shine on the international stage, but the unelected Senate trashed them and left Canadians wondering what on earth has happened to our democracy.

New Democrats would like to abolish the Senate.

In addition to what has already been discussed, this bill has some other problems. It restricts all senators appointed to the Senate after October 14, 2008 to a single, non-renewable nine-year term. Senators would never have to be accountable for campaign promises they made because they would not have to keep them, or for any of the actions that they had taken while in office.

Provinces and territories are given the opportunity to hold elections if they choose. These elections are at the cost of the provinces. The prime minister can then decide if she or he wishes to appoint the senators, but there is absolutely nothing holding the prime minister to appointing anyone who has been elected.

Several provinces have indicated that they have no intention of holding Senate elections. The Province of Quebec has been perfectly clear and called the legislation unconstitutional and said Quebec will launch a provincial court appeal if the bill proceeds without the consultation of the provinces.

The Conservatives and the Liberals seem intent on maintaining an antiquated institution that they have increasingly used for partisan purposes.

New Democrats understand that the Senate is unnecessary and does not serve to further our democracy in any way at all. We will continue our call for a referendum on the abolition of the Senate. In the meantime, we will work hard to expose the dangers that the Conservative agenda on Senate reform pose to the very fabric of our democracy.

Six years ago when the Prime Minister was opposition leader, he knew there was something wrong with an unelected Senate. He thought it was unfair. He called it undemocratic. He also said an appointed Senate, a relic of the 19th century, was what we had. He did not like how the prime minister holds a virtual free hand in the selection of senators. He promised that if he ever got the chance to be the prime minister, he would not name appointed people to the Senate. He insisted that anyone who sits in the Parliament of Canada must be elected by the people he or she represents.

However, the Prime Minister has turned his back on those democratic principles. Instead of solving the problem, he is becoming the problem. The Prime Minister now holds the all-time record for appointing the most significant number of senators in one day. Who are his appointees? The Conservative Party faithful: spin doctors, fundraisers, bagmen, insiders, people such as his former press secretary, his former Conservative Party president, his former national campaign director through two elections, and let us not forget the several defeated Conservative candidates who were rejected by the voters.

The Prime Minister has broken his promise to do politics differently. Not only does he play the same old politics, he plays them better than anyone else, and I mean that in a very negative way.

Last fall the Conservative-dominated Senate was used to veto legislation the Prime Minister simply did not like.

The climate change accountability bill was Canada's only federal climate change legislation. It passed twice in a minority parliament. It was good, solid legislation supported by a majority of elected MPs, legislation embodying the direction Canadians want to take. On November 16, 2010, the Senate defeated Bill C-311 at second reading. There was no committee review or witness hearings. Canada's only legislative effort to fight climate change was gone, killed by the unelected friends of the Prime Minister.

Now unelected Senators seem poised to do the same thing to the NDP labour critic's bill requiring Supreme Court judges to understand both official languages. Former Bill C-232 was duly passed by elected MPs in the previous Parliament, and is now Bill C-208.

Just because someone flipped pancakes for the Conservative Party of Canada does not give that individual the right to override the wishes of elected MPs.

Too often today's Senate is doing partisan work for public money. Speaking of money, Canadians are paying more and more for a discredited institution that does less and less at a time when people are dealing with a slow economic recovery, and the Conservative government is contemplating billions in cutbacks.

Maintaining the Senate costs Canadians around $90 million a year. While folks are looking for jobs and trying to make ends meet when their EI runs out, or scraping by on pensions that do not even cover basic necessities, senators are earning $132,300 a year for a three-day work week. Add in travel and expenses and each senator is costing us about $859,000 a year, all for an institution that will not play any relevant role in the lives of most Canadians.

I can think of a lot of things that do matter to people, such as creating family-supporting jobs, improving public health care, and building decent futures for our kids. Lining the pockets of party insiders just is not high on my or anyone's list.

Business of the House

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Mr. Speaker, perhaps you could seek the unanimous consent of the House of Commons to send a message to the Senate asking it to immediately pass Bill C-232, requiring Supreme Court judges to be bilingual. This bill was the first to make it to the Senate and it has been rejected by the Conservatives.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the parliamentary secretary may better understand this point of Bill C-232, which would require Supreme Court justices to be bilingual. Graham Fraser, the Commissioner of Official Languages, had this to say:

Every Canadian's right to use English or French in Canadian courts is one of the basic language rights set out in our constitutional framework.

Perhaps he should re-examine the reality of what he is attacking by not accepting the principle that Supreme Court justices must be bilingual.

Thus, the Reform Conservative government must stop blocking passage of Bill C-232 by the Senate out of concern for democracy.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the Reform Conservatives now have control of the Senate. They are further sabotaging democracy by, among other things, obstructing the passing of Bill C-232, which simply asks that Supreme Court justices be bilingual.

The Bloc Québécois supports the principle of Bill C-232, which provides that Supreme Court judges should be bilingual and capable of hearing cases without the assistance of an interpreter. We are asking for this out of respect for Quebeckers, as well as all Acadians and all francophone Canadians. We are also doing so because the Official Languages Act provides that English and French have equality of status and use, and because the French and English versions of federal acts have equal value and one is not considered a translation of the other.

The right of any citizen to use French or English before Canada's courts is a fundamental linguistic right. The Official Languages Act already recognizes the importance of being understood without the assistance of an interpreter before federal tribunals such as the Tax Court of Canada, the Federal Court and the Federal Court of Appeal.

It is also because of the problems that come with simultaneous interpretation, which does not allow enough reaction time to interrupt and ask questions, for the judge, the lawyers or even the litigants, who have the right to grasp all the nuances and subtleties of each respective language.

With regard to the principle behind bilingual Supreme Court justices, it is important to note that on May 21, 2008, the members of the Quebec National Assembly unanimously passed the following motion:

That the National Assembly of Québec affirm that French language proficiency is a prerequisite and essential condition for the appointment of Supreme Court of Canada judges.

The Premier of Quebec, Jean Charest, said: “Knowledge of French is important, very important. It is not a choice. And the message we are sending today to the federal government is that it is not optional”.

To know a language is to know a culture, a reality. And those who are called on to interpret that reality and make decisions that will have a very important impact on our lives have to know that reality through our language.

That is what Premier Jean Charest of Quebec said.

The Premier of Quebec is also of the opinion that “open federalism must ensure that judges appointed to the Supreme Court by Ottawa know Canada's two official languages”.

The Standing Committee on Official Languages also looked at the issue of comprehension of the two official languages by Supreme Court judges. In its fourth report, tabled in May 2008, it “recommends that the government ensure that the judges that they appoint to the Supreme Court are bilingual”.

Official Languages

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Mr. Speaker, usually we would celebrate International Day of La Francophonie on March 20. Unfortunately, the Canadian Francophonie does not have a lot to celebrate.

Since it came to power, the Conservative government has been determined to restructure our public service. And it is doing so without any concern for the impact these changes will have on official language communities. The Conservative government has wreaked havoc on Service Canada and is leading us in the wrong direction.

How can the Conservative government designate the Atlantic administrative region as unilingual when it includes the only officially bilingual province in Canada and when more than 450,000 people in Atlantic Canada speak French?

We see the Conservatives blocking Bill C-232 in the Senate. Yet it was democratically passed by the elected representatives in Parliament. The Conservatives are against the idea of bilingual Supreme Court justices, which means that the communities are being denied fairer treatment.

Language rights must be protected and respected, period.

I would like to thank the francophone and anglophone organizations that fight to ensure that the official languages are respected.

Opposition Motion—Representation in Parliament

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to speak to the opposition motion moved in the House of Commons by the NDP and to discuss the proposal to hold a referendum on abolishing the Senate. The question would be clear and precise: do Canadians want a Senate?

Earlier, my Conservative colleague said it was not feasible because we would have to reopen the Constitution. The Constitution was established some time ago. In a democracy, people evolve and change over the years. The Constitution was written in 1982, but people have changed since then, which is only natural. Parliament exists because democracy evolves. Every day, we debate certain bills and change Canadian laws because we are evolving and we need new laws adapted to the new changes in our country. The same is true for the Constitution.

Tomorrow morning, there could be a referendum in Canada and the majority of Canadians might vote in favour of abolishing the Senate. Earlier my Conservative colleague was saying that the provinces should agree. In my opinion, that would put a great deal of pressure on the provinces and the provincial governments.

Will we continue to hang on to an unelected Senate even if the citizens no longer want it? Canadians no longer want senators to be appointed by political parties and by the Prime Minister to please his political party. For example, when the current Prime Minister of Canada was in opposition, and even when he had formed the government but felt that the opposition had a majority in the Senate, he said that the Senate should never meddle in bills introduced by the government or the House of Commons.

This same Prime Minister has a majority in the upper chamber, in the Senate, and senators follow his instructions to the letter when elected members pass bills in the House of Commons.

In a minority government, although a majority of members of Parliament have voted for the bills, the Conservative senators in the other place turn around and listen to what the Prime Minister tells them.

Earlier, one of our Conservative colleagues said that Alberta senators are independent because the nominees are elected. Another hon. member asked earlier why they have a whip and a house leader if they are independent. What is the whip's job? I am certain that everyone knows the answer: to make them toe the party line.

There are two parties in the Senate—the Conservative Party and the Liberal Party—and two whips. There are party lines. When the Liberals had a majority in the Senate, the Prime Minister was distraught because he said he had formed the government and Parliament had passed bills, but that they were blocked in the Senate. Today, he is doing the same thing. Even worse, the Conservatives are abusing their power by appointing friends. The Prime Minister was against this way of appointing senators. He was against it.

This Prime Minister appointed Doug Finley, the Conservative national campaign manager; Irving Gerstein, the top Conservative fundraiser and chair of Conservative Fund Canada; Judith Seidman, the Quebec co-chair of the Prime Minister's leadership campaign; and Don Plett, president of the Conservative Party of Canada.

These are political appointments of the most extreme sort. Is that democracy? We send our young people to fight abroad so that other countries will have access to democracy and enjoy the right to vote, and so that laws will be passed by elected officials who are accountable to the people.

We are doing worse than that here in Canada. We do not have that kind of democracy. We pass bills in the House of Commons. Our rights are being violated. I was elected by the people of Acadie—Bathurst. I represent the majority of people in that riding and my rights are being violated. In fact, as soon as a bill leaves the House of Commons for the Senate, the Prime Minister issues an order that prevents the bill from being passed. Is that democracy?

Are we waiting for people to take to the streets to reclaim their democracy the way they are doing in Egypt and Libya? Canadians have elected MPs and those are the people that should be making the laws in Canada. But that is not what is happening. A group of friends was appointed to the Senate. Provincial premiers who lost their elections are appointed to the Senate as compensation. With all due respect, we saw this happen in New Brunswick. When Premier Hatfield lost the election in New Brunswick, he was appointed to the Senate. Political rewards are given to people who lose elections. People are thrown out of office by a democratic vote and the government turns around and sends them to the Senate until they are 75 years old. It is shameful.

Not very long ago, here in the House of Commons, we passed Bill C-311 on the environment. The Senate did not even review it. The Conservatives did not even debate the bill. They voted it down. Oh, but it is all right: it was an NDP bill. It was a fine thing to do. It did not make any sense.

That was the beginning of the end of democracy. The bill was not even debated.

Senators come to us and tell us we have to keep them there even though they have not been elected. They say that they are completely independent since the Prime Minister cannot remove them from their jobs until they are 75. They call themselves protectors of the regions and minorities and say they will ensure that politics do not interfere with what is good for the country. They will protect minorities and all that. But now they are going after minorities.

Like it or not, my Bill C-232 concerning judges in the Supreme Court was debated by the members in the House of Commons, and it was passed by a majority. That is democracy. However, the unelected senators have been sitting on their butts since April 2010 and refuse to even address the bill. The Senate has always fought to say that it would protect minorities and the regions, that it could study bills and if there were any errors, it could send the bills back with new ideas that it had added. It is improper for the Senate to reject bills from the House, especially if there is a minority government in power.

We did not see this problem in the past because we have had majority governments and the Senate typically had the same majority as the House, under the same government. So there were never issues between Senate decisions and those of the House. But now that there is a minority government, now that the majority of members are against the government, we are seeing all the little things that can go wrong. Now we see the dirty politics. That is what I call it.

If the Conservatives really believed in democracy, if they really believed in what they were saying, they would consult Canadians and ask them.

A survey was done in my riding. There were three questions: do you want to abolish the Senate; do you want the Senate to remain as-is; or do you want to modify it? Few people responded. Out of 89 people, 75 said that they wanted to abolish and get rid of the Senate, and 7 said that they wanted to modify it. No one wanted to leave it the way it is. I would be very happy to see a referendum and let Canadians say what they want to do about the Senate. I have no doubt that it would give us a starting point to work towards changing the Constitution, doing good things for democracy in our country and honouring our country so that we can be proud of what it represents in the world.

Opposition Motion--Representation in Parliament

[Christiane Gagnon, Bloc, Québec, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I rise today as the Bloc Québécois critic for democratic reform to speak to the motion moved by the member for Hamilton Centre. The NDP member's motion contains many elements, including the holding of a referendum on the question of amending the Referendum Act in order to abolish the existing Senate and to appoint a special committee for democratic improvement made up of 12 members. The motion also defines how the special committee would operate. Today I would like to focus on point (a), which is the most important and which reads as follows:

the House recognize the undemocratic nature of the current form of representation in the Parliament of Canada, specifically the unnecessary Senate and a House of Commons that does not accurately reflect the political preferences of Canadians;

I would like to examine this point from two angles: the undemocratic nature of the current form of representation in Parliament, specifically the House of Commons, and the unnecessary nature of the Senate. In that regard, we quite agree with the NDP.

Bills on democratic reform have been coming up over and over again for the past few sessions. This time around, we have Bill C-12, which aims to change the formula for calculating the number of members per province to increase the total number of members to 338. The distribution of new seats would be as follows: five more for Alberta, seven for British Columbia and 18 for Ontario. That would give us a total of 338 members, compared to the 308 we have now. This bill, if passed, would have a direct impact on Quebec's weight in the House of Commons, which would drop from 24.3% to 22.19%. Quebec would be even more marginalized compared to its current weight in the House.

It is of the utmost importance to maintain Quebec's weight in the House because Quebec is the only majority francophone state in North America and because Quebeckers are a unique linguistic minority on this continent. Louis Massicotte, a political scientist at Laval University, published an article on federal electoral redistribution entitled “Quelle place pour le Québec? Étude sur la redistribution électorale fédérale”. It is also more important than ever to protect our language and our culture when negotiating free trade agreements. We are talking about the cradle of the Quebec nation, which this House recognized in November of 2006, although, in practice, this means nothing to the Conservative government.

Make no mistake. If the government is insisting on increasing the weight of these particular provinces, it is because they are its stronghold or because it hopes to make political gains there. By going forward with this democratic reform, the Conservative government is claiming that it wants to respect democracy. However, the Conservatives are not fooling anyone. They are masters of flouting democracy. For example, they prorogued Parliament to avoid votes. They failed to follow the House's orders to submit documents, in particular, documents on the transfer of Afghan prisoners. They refused to appear before parliamentary committees. They recommended that unelected senators vote against bills that were passed by a majority of votes in the House, thus going against the will of the people. In 2008, they also failed to abide by their own legislation on fixed election dates.

The government is blatantly misleading the House and the public, as in the case involving the Minister of International Cooperation. I could go on but there are other points I would like to make.

Any recommendation in the House made by a special committee should not only take into account the current demographic weight of Quebec in the House of Commons, but it should also ensure that this weight is maintained because under no circumstance should Quebec's weight be any less than it currently is in the House.

In its current form, the Senate is unnecessary. It is a vehicle for partisan politics. Ever since the minority Conservative government came to power, it has been using this vehicle to introduce bills that the House of Commons opposes, in order to go against the will of the House of Commons. I cited a few examples, but there are many more.

Going against the will of the elected members of the House of Commons is completely anti-democratic in that this opposition comes from people whose legitimacy comes from a partisan appointment, unlike the legitimacy of the members of Parliament, which comes from the people.

We do not have to look too far back to find an example. Just consider Bill C-311. Bill C-311, An Act to ensure Canada assumes its responsibilities in preventing dangerous climate change, was supported by the Bloc Québécois and the majority of the legitimately elected members of the House of Commons. The bill imposed binding greenhouse gas reduction targets to ensure that Canada respects the IPCC recommendation and the requirement to submit a significant action plan every five years. The Prime Minister allowed the Senate to deny the will of the Parliament of Quebeckers and Canadians by allowing Conservative senators to defeat Bill C-311 without even studying it.

Yet, during the last election campaign, the Prime Minister declared that an unelected chamber should not block bills from an elected one. He then did an about-face and is now making use of the Conservative senators. He made sure that he appointed the majority of senators to the Senate to ensure that they would block bills or motions that Parliament had adopted and sent to the Senate and that they would introduce bills before members of Parliament even had a chance to speak to them.

When the seats of Liberal senators opened up, the Prime Minister made sure to appoint loyal Conservatives. By allowing their senators to vote against Bill C-311 without even studying it, the Conservatives created a precedent, a first since 1930, and showed a flagrant lack of respect for our democratic institutions.

The Conservative senators also managed to block certain bills passed by the House and sent to the Senate to be studied. Take, for example, Bill C-288, regarding the tax credit for new graduates working in designated regions, introduced by my colleague from Laurentides—Labelle, or Bill C-232, An Act to amend the Supreme Court Act (understanding the official languages), which would require Supreme Court judges to be bilingual. The Prime Minister could be confident that the senators would vote against these bills. In both cases, the Senate blocked the bills. On May 5, Bill C-288 received the support of a majority of MPs in the House of Commons. For the second time in less than three years, it was sent to the Senate. Since then, it has only been debated twice. Bill C-288 would help thousands of young people who want to study and remain in the regions, some of which are struggling economically.

With Bill C-232, the Conservatives were trying to buy some time. They kept delaying study of the bill until they had a majority in the Senate. The Conservative government is taking advantage of the fact that it controls the Senate in order to dictate its agenda. It is one thing for the Conservative government to oppose a measure, but to recommend that the Senate prevent debate on these two bills is unacceptable.

This shows the Conservative government's contempt for the will of the democratically elected parliamentarians. I should point out that the Liberals were no better and also used some schemes to delay passage of bills. Nonetheless, they never went as far as the Conservatives are going. In 2006, by the way, the Conservatives campaigned on reforming the Senate and making it more legitimate. That was one of the Prime Minister's promises.

That is why this Conservative government introduced a bill to reform Senate terms and limit them to eight years. That bill does nothing to reform this outdated, archaic institution where appointments are strictly partisan. That bill does nothing to remedy the nature of the Senate. The Prime Minister has transformed it into “a permanent office for his organizers, a waiting room for his Montreal candidates, and an absolute circus by the use of his surprising appointments, to describe them politely”, according to Vincent Marissal from La Presse.

The democratic deficit in the Senate and its extraordinarily partisan nature derive from the choices made by the Fathers of Confederation in 1867. From an academic standpoint, the upper house or senate in a federal system must represent the federated entities alongside a lower chamber, in our case, the House of Commons.

According to Réjean Pelletier, a political scientist and a professor in the political science department at Laval University, it is clear that this is not the case in the Canadian Parliament. In 1867, the Fathers of Confederation could have chosen the American model, where senators are elected by state legislatures and all states have equal weight, with the ability to elect two senators for a six-year term.

Instead, the Fathers of Confederation copied the British House of Lords and thus made the Senate a chamber that reviews legislation passed by the House of Commons. So the Senate is a chamber of sober second thought that moderates the overly democratic ways of the lower house, which is subject to pressure and emotional pleas from the public. But it no longer plays that role. What is more, senators were supposed to be appointed by the crown.

The idea of representing and defending the interests of federated entities did not come up in the discussions prior to the signing of the British North America Act. And from that stems our objection to the Senate, with its lack of legitimacy and representation.

Given that the Senate has become a partisan tool for the ruling Conservative Party and that it lacks both legitimacy and representation, it is not surprising that the public is angry about senators' spending.

According to an article by Stéphanie Marin in the January 27, 2011 edition of La Tribune, it would cost $90 million a year to keep the Senate in place. I do not remember the exact number, but I believe that 60% or 70% of Quebeckers supported abolishing the Senate.

We also learned in January that some senators are incurring excessive if not extravagant expenses. Conservative senators have not stopped sending mail-outs despite the fact that, in the spring of 2010, the House of Commons prohibited members from sending these types of mail-outs outside their ridings and specified that the Senate should follow suit.

It is important to note that the total printing budget for the Senate increased from $280,500 to $734,183 in 2008-09. Last month, the senators gave themselves the right to use taxpayers' dollars to continue to send mail-outs in which they can attack members.

To remedy the representation and legitimacy deficits and truly reform the Senate—to create a Senate where senators are actual representatives of Quebec and the provinces who are appointed or elected by legitimate authorities in Quebec, such as Quebec's National Assembly, and in the provinces and where there is equal representation for Quebec and the provinces resulting in a truly effective and non-partisan upper house as they have in other countries—we would have to proceed with a constitutional reform that would require agreement from seven provinces representing at least 50% of the population. We know that this would be practically impossible because we would have to reopen the Constitution.

The Bloc Québécois does not oppose this motion given that the Senate, in its current state, is unnecessary and that the current method of democratic representation has many shortcomings, such as the ones I have already mentioned. However, the Bloc's support for this motion is conditional upon the inclusion of two basic elements. First, Quebec's political weight must not be reduced at all as a result of any democratic reform. Second, under Quebec's referendum legislation, a referendum must be held in Quebec on the abolition of the Senate.

I would like to make two amendments to the NDP's motion. I move, seconded by the member for Vaudreuil-Soulanges:

That the motion be amended:

(a) by adding after the words “the next general election,” the following:

“with the understanding that, in Quebec, such a referendum will be subject to Quebec law, in accordance with the current Referendum Act and as established as a precedent by the 1992 Referendum on the Charlottetown Accord,”;

(b) by adding after the words “recommendations to the House” the following:

“that in no way reduce the current weight of the Quebec nation in the House of Commons”. .

Andrée Champagne

[Ève-Mary Thaï Thi Lac, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Mr. Speaker, in response to an open letter I sent to Conservative Senator Andrée Champagne, asking her to explain her refusal to support Bill C-232 regarding bilingual judges and Bill C-311 on climate change, she replied with comments that bordered on racist.

She said that I lacked loyalty to Canada, “the country that welcomed me and that I wanted to see torn apart”. Is the Conservative Senator trying to say that a citizen who was not born here does not have the same right to an opinion as other Quebeckers and that he or she does not have the right to vote or be involved in a sovereignist party? She added that she was a "purebred Quebecker,” as evidenced by her genealogy.

The Bloc Québécois believes in openness and believes that all Quebeckers, regardless of where they come from, should have full rights of citizenship, including the right to decide Quebec's future.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Mr. Commissioner, do you think that the Parliamentary Secretary to the Prime Minister—and I do mean the Parliamentary Secretary—is sending 10 percenters out in his riding in order to promote official languages? To my knowledge, this is the only riding he has sent them to; perhaps he has sent them across Canada. Does this help promote official languages? Is that not the problem?

We have a Senate made up of unelected individuals who, since June, have been considering Bill C-232 on Supreme Court judges and who have been saying loud and clear that they will do everything to ensure that it is not passed. That is what the Conservative Party people in the Senate are doing.

My question is simple: do we currently have a government that is promoting official languages with those kinds of comments and those kinds of positions?

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

I am asking you the question, and this is something that you will certainly hear about later. Do you think it is appropriate for the Prime Minister's parliamentary secretary to be sending out ten percenters in his area stating that Bill C-232 on bilingual judges at the Supreme Court is not a good thing, that it would prevent anglophones from being appointed to the Supreme Court? Do you find that appropriate, coming from the Prime Minister's parliamentary secretary? Other parliamentary secretaries go so far as to say that it is the best bill to have been passed, because they will campaign against us out west by saying that we are preventing anglophones from being named to the Supreme Court.

Do you find it appropriate for a government that is supposedly responsible for insuring compliance with our two official languages to conspire against that official languages bill?

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

Madam Speaker, the Commissioner of Official Languages is refuting the Conservatives' arguments regarding bilingual judges at the Supreme Court.

Commissioner Graham Fraser reminds us that when the Official Languages Act was passed 40 years ago, it was claimed that bilingualism requirements would prevent people from western Canada from getting jobs in the federal administration. Yet the current Chief Justice of the Supreme Court is from Alberta, the most senior federal public servant is from Saskatchewan and one of the highest ranking officers in the armed forces is from Manitoba.

Instead of setting us back by 40 years, why does the Conservative government not insist that judges appointed to the Supreme Court understand French? The Conservative Party is showing its inability to think in terms of the future of the Quebec and Canadian peoples represented in the House of Commons.

And what about the minister responsible for official languages, who is desperately trying to justify his government's inaction by saying that the bilingualism requirement for judges is dividing Canada? Is he trying to tell us that, in Canada, the fact that a judge of the highest court can hear French without understanding it is an argument for the way French should be respected?

Is he saying that a Supreme Court justice who might not understand English could grasp what is said in that language as well a judge in the same courtroom whose daily language of communication is English?

Frankly, the minister should explain himself. Is he saying that he cannot require Supreme Court justices to understand French for fear of upsetting hardliners in his party?

We know that Bill C-232, which would require judges appointed to the Supreme Court to understand English and French thoroughly, is currently rotting in the Senate because it is being blocked by the Conservatives.

This is just another example of how the upper chamber is an obstruction to democracy. The vast majority of the unelected who sit there are friends of the government, appointed as a partisan reward. Without any mandate from Quebeckers or Canadians, they are currently preventing a bill, which was adopted by the elected members of the House of Commons, from reaching third reading stage and royal assent by the Governor General.

What can we say about the Conservatives from Quebec in the House of Commons and in the Senate, who are fuelling the notion that French is a second-class language with which Supreme Court justices do not even need to be acquainted?

This makes us realize yet again that, to the Canadian assimilation state, the concept of two official languages is nothing more than a concept, and not a real commitment.

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

The Supreme Court of Canada has served Canadians well for more than 140 years without any need for this kind of legislation. This bill is nothing more than a game—a political game that is completely unnecessary, and that is what I said.

The Supreme Court of Canada must be bilingual and respect all Canadians who come before it. However, if someone is unable to perfectly understand technical arguments in both official languages, without translation, that should not mean that he has no business sitting on the Supreme Court of Canada. There have been a number of Supreme Court justices who have served Canada very well in the official language of their choice, albeit with some difficulty because they were not perfectly or completely bilingual. That is the point I want to make.

As I said to my federalist colleagues who are members of this Committee and believe that Canada is better off when we are united and respect Canada's two official languages, I find it interesting that, when Bill C-232 received the support of the House a month and a half ago, it was the Bloc Québécois that was happiest with that result; it is the Bloc Québécois asking the most questions in this Committee; and it is also the Bloc Québécois celebrating the victory of that bill's passage by the House. That is not a good sign for Canadian unity.

I repeat that the Supreme Court of Canada is an institution which has no need for this bill, because it has served Canada very well for more than 140 years, without such a bill. Furthermore, when the Liberal Party was in office, it did not seek to make such a change to the legislation. To be perfectly frank, we do not need this bill.

Official Languages

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Mr. Speaker, on May 11, 2005, the current Prime Minister said, “I remind the House that the motion was nonetheless adopted and that the government is duty bound to respect the decisions made by the House of Commons”. He also said, “...the Liberal controlled and Liberal majority Senate found yet another way to delay it...”.

The bill I sponsored, Bill C-232, concerning the appointment of bilingual judges to the Supreme Court, was passed by the House.

Will the Conservative senators respect the 2005 position of the member for Calgary Southwest and vote to respect official languages? What does the Prime Minister have to say about that?

The House resumed from March 29, consideration of the motion that Bill C-232, An Act to amend the Supreme Court Act (understanding the official languages), be read the third time and passed.

Supreme Court Act

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Mr. Speaker, I would first like to thank the members who stood up here in the House to support the bill—the member for Madawaska—Restigouche, the member for Gatineau, the member for Nanaimo—Cowichan, the member for Ottawa—Vanier, the member for Laval, the member for Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing and the member for Elmwood—Transcona—as well as all the members who support Bill C-232.

It is important to understand that Bill C-232 does not say that Supreme Court judges must understand French, but that they must understand English and French.

We are not trying to say that anglophone judges appointed to the Supreme Court have to understand French so that francophone judges do not have to learn English. We want the judges to actually speak both languages.

My argument has never changed, and I disagree with the Conservative government's position that it may be difficult to find qualified judges. That is what the Conservatives are saying.

However, the ability to hear a case in both official languages is a skill. Opponents of the bill have often raised the point that highly qualified judges might be overlooked because they do not understand both official languages. That makes no sense. Given that the laws of this country have been written in both official languages without being translated, the ability to understand both versions of the law without translation is an important legal skill.

Mr. Graham Fraser, the Commissioner of Official Languages, said this:

So when someone comes forward and says, or says about a candidate, that he is very competent, that he has all of this experience, but he doesn't have the ability to hear a case that's presented before the Supreme Court in the language in which that case is presented, then he is missing a critical competence.

That is what the Commissioner of Official Languages said. He was appointed by the Conservative Party. I hope it trusts Mr. Graham Fraser. The Conservative Party has appointed Mr. Graham Fraser as Commissioner of Official Languages, and the Commissioner of Official Languages said that.

Then he said that the candidate is missing the critical competence:

He is actually not as competent as a candidate for the Supreme Court who does have that ability.

That is from the Commissioner of Official Languages.

The National Assembly in Quebec has expressed that it is in favour of the Supreme Court being bilingual, being able to understand the two languages. By saying that, it is the two groups that represent the two people who have founded this country, the anglophone and the francophone both being able to understand both languages.

A lawyer who was a teacher from the University of Moncton went to the Supreme Court. He was talking about Mr. St-Coeur and the translator was interpreting the name as “Mr. Five O'clock”. When we have a case like that, we have a problem.

The lawyer, Mr. Doucet, went to the Supreme Court about seven times. He added:

In the week after I had argued a case before the Supreme Court, I had an opportunity to hear the English version of my arguments on CPAC.... The translation did not allow me to understand my own words.

There is a problem then. The Supreme Court of Canada is there to show our country, to show by example. I think it is time to do this.

Just last week I had to raise a question in the House of Commons about appointments of two judges to the appeal court in Nova Scotia being bilingual, because the last time they replaced two bilingual judges with unilingual judges.

That is what I am putting to this House. I hope we have the support of all the members. Then that will become the past and when judges are appointed to the Supreme Court, they will represent what actually happens in our country, the two official languages of our country.

I think this would be the honourable thing to do. I hope I have the support of all of the members.

[Jim Maloway, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to speak to Bill C-232, introduced by my colleague, the member for Acadie—Bathurst.

I was expecting this bill would be passed unanimously in Parliament. I read through the past debates in Hansard and was surprised to find that members of the Conservative Party were very reluctant to proceed, especially when they should be open-minded enough on principle to vote in favour of the bill at second reading and get the bill to committee. If they had any concerns or amendments, they could present them at committee and we could proceed from there.

I believe the Liberals are onside on this bill. The Bloc certainly indicated support. The NDP caucus is solidly onside. I also read with interest the speeches of other members of our caucus, the member for Outremont and the member for Burnaby—New Westminster. I would like to echo their sentiments on this bill.

The bill puts in a new requirement for judges of the Supreme Court to understand English and French without the assistance of an interpreter. That is all it does. That should not be difficult. When appointing judges at that level, we are dealing with extremely competent, qualified people who have considerable education and can understand concepts. Language training should not be a problem for people at that level.

Once again, I am a bit taken aback that Conservative members would present the view that they have.

My wife speaks Spanish and French. Members of her family have sent their children to French immersion schools in Manitoba for the last number of years. As other members have indicated, there is no shortage of French immersion schools in Manitoba. As a matter of fact, the number of people who go to French immersion is rising. That part of the school system is expanding and people are interested in sending their kids to French immersion schools.

My home province of Manitoba has had difficulties over the years. In terms of the province itself, I get questions about Manitoba politics. I was involved provincially for a number of years. There was an issue back in the 1970s which had its roots in 1890 when Manitoba passed the Official Languages Act, which rendered the province unilingual. In 1975 a unilingual parking ticket was issued to Georges Forest. That case and the Bilodeau cases targeted the 1890 Official Languages Act and they won. The province had to deal with the issue.

Rather than translate 100 years of old statutes, the NDP government of the day, of which I was a part, after negotiations with Société franco-manitobaine and the federal government, arrived at an agreement for a constitutional amendment which would have led to the expansion of French language services in Manitoba. We had an agreement. Société franco-manitobaine was in favour of all the new services that it wanted. The provincial government was in favour. The federal government was in favour.

Everything was proceeding as it should, but it was the Conservative opposition of the day that decided to make hay on the issue. It led to acrimony in the legislature, bell ringing, a virtual shutdown of the legislature and a virtual destruction of the government. The government at the end of the day backed down and said it would translate the laws, and that is what happened. What we did not want to happen, to spend millions and millions of dollars to translate 100-year-old laws, happened.

Having said all that, since that time French language services have expanded in Manitoba, so we translated the laws and now we have very good services. As a matter of fact our current premier, Greg Selinger, who is bilingual, who speaks French, has been personally in charge of French language services for the last 10 years, ever since he was the finance minister in 1999 when Gary Doer formed the government. I know he has attended francophonie conferences. He is very active on that file. I have certainly heard him in caucus enough on the issue. I think if we checked, we would find that French language services have expanded in Manitoba under the NDP, under Mr. Selinger, to the extent that there has not been a complaint, a story or any acrimony over the last 10 years. No one has complained that they are not able to get services in the French language.

Our solution at the end of the day has all worked out favourably, while it certainly caused a lot of political problems in the province, caused us to have a bad reputation across the country for a while partly because of some misunderstandings. I do not think there is or should be a role for parties to say one thing at one level in one place and then the opposite on the campaign trail, an election situation or another venue. That is what happened in Manitoba. The opposition basically took an issue and twisted it and tried to make political hay out of the situation.

At the end of the day, guess what? The opposition was successful in causing the government to back down, but the government was re-elected anyway. So the proof is in the pudding, and the proof is that playing angles that should not be played in issues like language, because they can be divisive, does not necessarily get the results we think we should be getting in the long run.

I thought I would deal with that issue because I read Hansard on this issue. Also, I do want to correct an error I might have made at the beginning of my speech when I indicated the Conservatives should support the bill at second reading. My whip, and the author of the bill, points out that we are at third reading right now. Having said that, my intention is still to encourage the Conservatives to come on side. We do have the majority now with all three parties supporting the bill. It makes sense to me that members opposite join the coalition, as they put it, to make this a unanimous bill rather than trying to find ways to slow it down and thwart what is essentially an excellent idea from the member. The member has already gone through a lot with the bill, given that the Prime Minister prorogued the House a few months ago and then we had to start over again when we just spoke on the bill a few months ago.

I am very pleased to have my time on the bill and I know the member wants to make his closing arguments.

[Carol Hughes, NDP, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

Mr. Speaker, since March 20 was the 40th anniversary of the International Day of La Francophonie, I am happy and very proud to have the opportunity to speak about why the members of the House of Commons should support Bill C-232.

The bill proposes that any judge appointed to the Supreme Court of Canada must be able to speak to the people in both official languages.

A number of organizations support this bill, which would ensure that statements made by someone addressing a Supreme Court judge are understood without the need for interpretation.

Canada's laws must be written in English and French so that judges and lawyers understand them well and the latter can better represent their clients.

The Supreme Court of Canada itself, citing a decision made in Ontario, recognized that Canadians should have the right to be served in the official language of their choice.

There are many francophones in my riding of Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing in northern Ontario. It is up to all members in this House to tell the communities they represent that the government takes bilingualism seriously.

Any document tabled in the House of Commons must be tabled in both official languages. Every member has the right to speak in either of the two languages. It is just as important for this requirement to apply to the Supreme Court of Canada.

It is unbelievable that legislation requires the Federal Court, the Federal Court of Appeal and the Tax Court of Canada to offer bilingual services, but not the Supreme Court.

I completely agree with my colleague from Acadie—Bathurst on this bill.

My constituents want bilingualism to be a requirement for judges of the Supreme Court of Canada.

My riding extends from Timmins to Sudbury to Thunder Bay, an area with a vibrant francophone community. In Hearst, for example, 99.9% of the people are francophone. Most of them are originally from Quebec.

Last year, one of the mayors wrote a letter to the government requesting that any judge appointed to replace a unilingual anglophone judge be bilingual so that citizens would be properly represented.

The Minister of Justice sent the following answer:

Dear Madam:

Thank you for your letter, in which you added your concerns about the appointment of a bilingual judge to the Superior Court of Justice in Cochrane, Ontario—at the time—to those raised by elected officials from the City of Hearst.

I would emphasize that the Government of Canada recognizes the importance of supporting the development of minority language communities.

On the one hand, he recognized that these communities have a need, but on the other, he said that it is not necessary to recognize the needs of francophones when it comes to the Supreme Court of Canada.

Furthermore, I can assure you that this government is determined to ensure that our courts function as well as possible. One way to do that is to make sure that they can hear cases in both official languages.

He recognized that a need existed, but later on in the letter, he said that he would make sure people were receiving proper services. The government may have some influence, but ultimately, he is the one making decisions about who to appoint to the Supreme Court of Canada. Clearly, the government is not yet committed when it comes to official languages.

I worked for Probation and Parole Services for about 13 years. People who have to appear before a judge and want a French-language trial are often at a disadvantage compared to others because they have to wait until a French-speaking judge is available. Wait times in the courts are getting longer and longer. We want this kind of bill to pass so that nobody will have to wait any longer than anyone else for their trial.

I have encountered some problems with translation. Even though someone is interpreting the trial of the person who wants to be judged in French, it is not the same thing. During one of my elections someone needed a short sentence to be translated. The English sentence was: “Please post in window”.

It was translated as, “S'il vous plaît, poteau dans la vitre”. “Post” was treated as a noun instead of a verb, and the sentence became “Please stake into the window”! That is why it is not enough to say that translators are available. Even here in the government when documents are translated, we always have to double-check because not all translators have the same skills. That is why it is very important that a justice of the Supreme Court of Canada, who is going to hear the cases, is truly able to grasp the intention and meaning of the legislation. That is not really possible if one is unilingual.

As I was saying, I support this bill. I want to read a few comments made by certain judges and lawyers on their support for this bill. Graham Fraser said:

So when someone comes forward and says, or says about a candidate, that he is very competent, that he has all of this experience, but he doesn't have the ability to hear a case that's presented before the Supreme Court in the language in which that case is presented, then he is missing a critical competence. He is actually not as competent as a candidate for the Supreme Court who does have that ability.

Michel Doucet, a lawyer, said:

In my opinion, in a Canadian setting, with the legislation that we have and with our interpretation of bilingual legislation, to be competent to sit as a justice of the Supreme Court one must understand both languages.

I could read many more quotes like that, but more and more people support the fact that we need legislation to protect bilingualism in the Supreme Court of Canada. Its judges will understand both official languages. Lawyers and judges, and those aspiring to those professions, will realize they have to learn French to better serve the Canadian public.

Again, I support this bill introduced by the hon. member for Acadie—Bathurst.

[Nicole Demers, Bloc, Laval, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am also very pleased to rise here today to speak to Bill C-232 introduced by my NDP colleague.

I am especially pleased to do so because I firmly believe that everyone, whether they speak French or English, has the right to be heard by someone who understands them. Of course, Mr. Speaker, you understand me, but if I am not lucky enough to have an interpreter who gives an excellent translation, you will not understand me.

Sometimes certain differences in terms of culture or language might not be properly understood. There are certain nuances in the language spoken by a particular group of people or nation that cannot necessarily be translated, regardless of the quality of the translation.

That is only one of the main reasons the Bloc Québécois and I personally believe strongly in this bill. Indeed, everyone is entitled to a full and complete defence. Everyone is entitled to be heard and understood by the Supreme Court judges who must rule on these matters. They are asked to make very important decisions and examine very serious issues. If they cannot read the files in their original language, they may not be able to understand the essence of the issue, not because of a lack of intelligence, but rather because of a lack familiarity with the culture associated with the other language.

When a judge cannot read newspapers or listen to the news in French, and cannot hear a conversation in French and understand the essence of it, how can that judge rule on potentially disturbing facts and on important decisions that may become part of case law?

I would like to give an example. Last week, from March 13 to 20, we were in Buenos Aires, Argentina. That week, a big story in Canadian papers, especially in Quebec papers—because there was a time when Quebec was a very religious nation, a nation of believers—was the scandal in Rome concerning pedophile priests. Apparently, the Pope had trouble removing pedophile priests from their functions.

When I arrived in Buenos Aires, this was the top story on television and everyone was talking about it. It got constant airtime all day long. That is because people in Buenos Aires, Argentina, are still very religious. The news was of tremendous importance to them. However, in the United States, Canada and Quebec, other stories were on the front page. In the United States, the top story was the health care bill that Barack Obama was trying to get through the Senate and the House so that all Americans could have access to health care. Here, Afghanistan and the documents we were supposed to get from the government but had not yet received were still making headlines. We have received some documents since then, but they are so heavily whited out that they are unreadable.

Clearly, one nation's realities are not the same as another's. To understand these realities, the people who legislate and who decide what goes into a Supreme Court report or ruling must be able to understand not just the words, but the overall context. The people who do that have to be bilingual at the very least. The Commissioner of Official Languages was absolutely right. He dismissed claims made by the member for Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, who was elected by a francophone majority and then had the gall to act against its wishes and, as a member of the Standing Committee on Official Languages, decide that English was the most important language for judges to speak.

I do not understand why that hon. member thinks an anglophone judge is better qualified and more knowledgeable than a bilingual francophone judge.

What is more, most francophone judges and lawyers speak English as well. We very rarely see a bilingual anglophone judge. Most anglophone judges have not bothered to learn French. But when someone wants to rise to such a high position, a position where they represent the people and make the important decisions, they should at least make the effort to learn both official languages of the country they represent. It is an indispensable condition.

It is hard to believe there could be a Supreme Court justice who does not understand French, who is unable to read and understand rulings that have been made and who has to rely on translations. Even though these texts are translated well and convey the meaning, basically, they do not explain motivations.

As the Liberal member was saying earlier, Quebec has decided to replace the religious school boards with linguistic school boards. I do not know if that has been done elsewhere, but the nation of Quebec has made the necessary decisions. Even if this is not being done elsewhere, the Supreme Court of Canada has to make decisions that reflect all of Canada, Quebec and the Atlantic provinces.

My honourable NDP colleague has mounted a strong defence of the Francophone cause. However, we must ensure that measures are in place to protect the rights of French-language communities—those inside as well as outside Quebec—in 10, 15 or 20 years. Every day, senseless decisions are made.

For example, the Vancouver Olympic Games showed that it is difficult to ensure respect for the French language. Not long ago, the citizens of Burnaby, British Columbia, received a brochure that was printed in five languages, but not in French. This was highlighted in our press review this morning. And yet, Francophones make up a fairly large segment of British Columbia's population. Why continue to deny it?

The City of Ottawa is bilingual. However, the mayor does not speak French; he cannot speak to citizens in French. When Ms. Harel wanted to run for mayor of Montreal, she was accused of not speaking English; she was never told that she speaks impeccable French. And yet, that is the case. It was not the English press, but the French press that objected to the fact that she did not speak English. We are quite concerned about the Anglophone minority. However, this should be the case for the Francophone community.

True concern for the Francophone community does not mean talking out of both sides of one's mouth. The Conservatives are very good at that, as demonstrated by their advertising campaign. One day, they will have to face the facts: the Francophones of Quebec and Canada will no longer be pushed around. We will not put up with it. We have rights and we will ensure that those rights are respected.

[Terence Young, Conservative, Oakville, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise in the House to speak to Bill C-232, An Act to amend the Supreme Court Act (understanding the official languages). The bill would create a requirement that all individuals appointed to the Supreme Court of Canada be able to understand the proceedings before them in both English and French without the aid of an interpreter.

Our government is committed to promoting the use of both official languages in Canadian society. Canada's bilingual nature is a fundamental aspect of our national identity. As Canadians, we pride ourselves in our country's bilingual institutions. This is particularly the case with respect to the Supreme Court of Canada, which plays a fundamental role in our democratic society as the ultimate guardian of the values enshrined in the Canadian Bill of Rights and Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

The Supreme Court's mission statement, as set out in its public website, is to serve Canadians by leading the development of common and civil law through its decisions on questions of public importance. In the context of this mission, the court has declared its commitment to the rule of law, independence and impartiality, and accessibility to justice.

There is no doubt that the judges of our Supreme Court faithfully pursue these important goals on a daily basis. Indeed, the court consistently provides all Canadians with the highest quality of justice they expect and deserve.

Hon. members are well aware that the Supreme Court of Canada is recognized nationally and internationally as a model of collegiality, professionalism and superior capacity. Canadians may take tremendous pride in the stature that our judges hold around the world.

In light of the important role of the Supreme Court, as the pinnacle of our justice system, the government's overriding consideration in the appointment of judges to the court is, and must continue to be, merit based on legal excellence and personal suitability. Bilingualism remains an important factor in the assessment of candidates considered among other factors, including proficiency in the law, judgment, honesty, integrity, fairness, work habits and social awareness.

The composition of the court, including a number of judges, is established by the Supreme Court Act, which provides that at least three of the justices must come from Quebec. As a matter of long-standing practice, the composition of the Supreme Court of Canada has reflected regional representation with the remaining judges appointed from Ontario, Atlantic Canada, the Prairies and British Colombia.

The practice of ensuring regional representation guarantees that the most qualified and deserving candidates across the country are appointed to the Supreme Court of Canada. Bill C-232 proposes to circumvent this exemption, which would in fact hinder regional representation to the court.

We must draw a distinction between institutional bilingualism and individual bilingualism. Institutional bilingualism is a fundamental and historic component of the government's responsibilities in ensuring that both official language communities can be served in either English or French. Individual bilingualism, which is improperly advocated by Bill C-232 as a requirement, would undermine that component.

Currently, the Supreme Court, as an institution, provides services of the highest quality in both official languages. The proposed amendment would make bilingualism a pre-condition to appointment. Given the extraordinary complexity and the importance of the cases heard by the court, this would require the highest level of linguistic capacity necessary for understanding the most refined and difficult judicial arguments, based on extensive factual evidence in both official languages.

There are subtleties of language that many of our best legal minds across Canada may not have fully mastered, and the stakes are high. Our most important rights hang in the balance. It is the government's position that the proposed amendment is not necessary to ensure access to the court in either official language.

The court provides all its services and communications in English and French. In addition, every individual who appears before the court is free to use either English or French in written and oral proceedings. The court's decisions are issued in English and French, thereby also contributing to a growing case of bilingual case law that is accessible to all Canadians and others worldwide.

The goal of ensuring the rights of Canadians to be heard and understood in the language of their choice is already being fully met by the court. The current composition requirements of the Supreme Court Act, together with the historical practice of regional representation, allow us to preserve our important commitment to legal pluralism, while at the same time ensuring that Canadians are served by judges of the highest distinction and ability. It has provided Canadians with a strong and independent judiciary that is the envy of free and democratic governments throughout the world.

The effect of Bill C-232 would be to have linguistic considerations override the central consideration of merit by reducing the pool of otherwise highly qualified candidates in some regions of the country where there may be fewer lawyers and judges capable of hearing a case in both official languages. We recognize that there must be sufficient linguistic capacity in our courts to provide equal access to justice in both English and French. The government has been and will remain vigilant in seeking competence in both official languages to achieve this goal.

Thus, bilingualism will remain an important criterion in the process of selecting judges to Canada's Supreme Court. However, such a factor should not eclipse the overruling consideration of merit and legal excellence in maintaining and nurturing the fairest justice system in the world.

The House resumed from March 19 consideration of the motion that Bill C-232, An Act to amend the Supreme Court Act (understanding the official languages), be read the third time and passed.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Madam Speaker, I am very pleased to speak in support of the member for Acadie—Bathurst's bill, Bill C-232, which is very important for the House to debate. I also acknowledge the tireless work that the member for Acadie—Bathurst does in defence of official languages and for being such an excellent watchdog when the government fails in its duty to uphold the official languages of this country.

I am an anglophone from western Canada. It is interesting that two members from western Canada are speaking about the bill today. One is opposed, but I am very much in favour.

I will talk a bit about why it is so important. First, the legislation provides a clear signal for all levels of the judiciary in our country. When legislation is introduced in Parliament, it comes to us in both official languages. We know it is absolutely our right in the House to be heard in either language of our choice.

As you rightly pointed out, Madam Speaker, sometimes we provide some challenges for the interpreters here. Whatever language we choose to speak, sometimes our passion about a particular subject will have speak very quickly and it does not allow the interpreters to keep up with the speed of our speech. That deprives the members, who listen in that other language of their choice, of their right to hear what the member has said.

Many of us in the House have had experiences where, either because of the noise in the House or the rapidity of our speech, we have been unable to have our words heard by members who listen in another language. That very challenge is why it is incumbent, when we talk about Supreme Court justices, that the justices are fully fluent in both of our Canadian languages, English and French.

People who have their cases heard before court in whatever language of their choice should have a comfort level that the justices are able to understand in whatever language the case is presented. It seems fundamental to me, and Canadians agree, that we do have two official languages.

I want to digress just a little for a moment and talk about why this is so important. By taking it out of the realm of talking about English and French and putting it into another realm, I think it may be easier for people to understand why it is absolutely essential that we honour the Official Languages Act and recognize that people have the right to be served in their language of choice at all levels.

It is probably no surprise to many members of the House that I will talk about indigenous languages. Members may not be aware that in 1989 the Assembly of First Nations declared March 31 as National Aboriginal Languages Day. I will use some other people's words to talk about why that is so important.

Last year in the Yukon legislative assembly, Mr. Cardiff rose in recognition of National Aboriginal Languages Day. He said:

It is said that language is culture. A person's culture is expressed most clearly in the process of their language use. Thinking patterns, values and actions are all underlaid by language expression. Daily use of the language means that the culture is strong and that it is passed on.

Mr. Edzerza's mother language is Tahltan, but he unfortunately grew up without the ability to speak it. He talked about the impact of his language and culture on growing up. He said:

—the Council of Yukon First Nations did a Yukon regional health survey, called Reclaiming the Well-being of Our People. The survey results showed 87 percent of those surveyed said loss of their language had a very negative impact on their lives today, and 91 percent of youth and children rate that knowing their traditional language is very important to them.

He goes on to say:

In 1994, Elder Percy Henry gave a powerful message to all people about language when he said...“A car with no gas can't go. A tree with no branches can't grow. So as native people who have lost their language, part of us is gone. Your spirit is strong; your fire inside of you is strong; you have it all when you speak your own language.”

That speaks very powerfully in our country. Both francophones and anglophones, if they should end up in a Supreme Court justice situation, need to be understood.

Many of the nuances being presented in an argument, even if it is not around a justice issue, can be lost in interpretation.

In speaking about the importance of language, I want to refer to the comments of an expert in the area. Graham Fraser, the Commissioner of Official Languages, said:

--it seems to me that the knowledge of both official languages should be one of the qualifications sought for judges of Canada's highest court. Setting such a standard would prove to all Canadians that the Government of Canada is committed to linguistic duality. I find it essential that an institution as important as the Supreme Court of Canada not only be composed of judges with exceptional legal skills, but also reflect our values and our Canadian identity as a bijural and bilingual country.

We have heard some arguments in this House, although not many, that appointments to the Supreme Court bench should be based on merit.

Where I live in Nanaimo--Cowichan, there is a very strong francophonie association. French immersion courses are oversubscribed. People on the west coast are very interested in being fluently bilingual, being able to speak both English and French, because that is what our country is about.

I would argue that by establishing that Supreme Court justices will be bilingual, we will be sending a very clear message that when people enter law school and have some ambitions to being appointed to the bench, they will take the responsibility to learn both English and French in order to be considered for that kind of appointment.

Graham Fraser indicated:

If Parliament were to pass this bill, it would send a powerful message to Canada's law schools that mastering both official languages is a prerequisite for full mastery of the law, and for qualification for the most important and prestigious positions in the Canadian judiciary.

Canadians are very intelligent people. If bilingualism is a job requirement to be a Supreme Court justice, they will understand that they must be fluent in both English and French. I encourage all members of this House to support the member for Acadie—Bathurst's very fine piece of legislation and vote yes on it.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

Madam Speaker, I will be speaking today about Bill C-232, An Act to amend the Supreme Court Act (understanding the official languages).

The Bloc Québécois supports the principle of Bill C-232 for the following reasons.

This bill seeks to make the understanding of French and English without the assistance of an interpreter a requirement for judges appointed to the Supreme Court. The Official Languages Act provides that English and French have equality of status and use. It is the right of any citizen to use French or English before Canada's courts, based on fundamental linguistic rights and the Official Languages Act, which already recognizes the importance of being understood without the assistance of an interpreter before federal tribunals such as the Tax Court of Canada, the Federal Court and the Federal Court of Appeal. Furthermore, simultaneous translation can create problems because it does not allow adequate reaction time to interrupt someone, to ask questions, whether for the justice, the lawyers or even the individuals subject to trial who have a right to be able to understand all the nuances and subtleties of each language

For all these reasons, we support this bill.

The Constitution and the Official Languages Act state that English and French are the official languages, and that they have equality of status and equal rights and privileges as to their use in all institutions of the Parliament and the Government of Canada. Under the Constitution and the Official Languages Act, there is full and equal access in both languages to Parliament, to the laws of Canada and to courts.

The Official Languages Act provides the details and conditions for access to the courts in both official languages. Under the law, federal courts other than the Supreme Court of Canada—at this time—have the duty to ensure that any officer who hears proceedings: is able to understand English without the assistance of an interpreter, if English is the language chosen by the parties for the proceedings; is able to understand French without the assistance of an interpreter, if French is the language chosen by the parties for the proceedings; is able to understand both languages without the assistance of an interpreter, if both English and French are the languages chosen by the parties for the proceedings.

As recognized by the Fédération des associations de juristes d'expression française de common law, a member of the Fédération des communautés francophones et acadienne du Canada, Canada's Official Languages Act recognizes the importance of being understood before federal tribunals without the assistance of an interpreter. The same law should apply to the Supreme Court of Canada. Ironically, the Officially Languages Act currently excludes the Supreme Court from these conditions, even though it is the highest court in the country.

The Bloc Québécois thinks that this should change, which is why it supports Bill C-232, currently before the House.

We keep hearing that Canada is our country. But we can appear before a Supreme Court judge and they are not required to understand French, our language. This would not happen if Quebec were a sovereign nation. This is one of the main issues.

The original bill, introduced in the 39th Parliament, which required Supreme Court judges to understand both official languages, got a number of reactions and received considerable support, in particular, the support of the Quebec National Assembly. On May 21, 2008, all the members present at the Quebec National Assembly unanimously adopted a motion that stated:

That the National Assembly of Québec affirm that French language proficiency is a prerequisite and essential condition for the appointment of Supreme Court of Canada judges.

The Premier of Quebec said:

Knowledge of French is important, very important. It is not a choice. And the message we are sending today to the federal government is that it is not optional—

He added that this motion was a “requirement”.

To know a language is to know a culture, a reality. And those who are called on to interpret that reality and make decisions that will have a very important impact on our lives have to know that reality through our language.

—open federalism must ensure that judges appointed to the Supreme Court by Ottawa know Canada's two official languages.

The Standing Committee on Official Languages also looked at the issue of comprehension of the two official languages by Supreme Court judges during the 39th Parliament.

In its fourth report, which was released in May 2008—I was there—it “recommends that the government ensure that the judges that they appoint to the Supreme Court are bilingual”, in other words, that they speak French and English.

I should note that the Conservative members of the Standing Committee on Official Languages refused to support this motion, which was similar to Quebec's motion. That is deplorable. Some of those Conservatives were Quebec francophones who renounced their own language. And that is terrible.

The Canadian Bar Association decided to take a stand in favour of requiring that future Supreme Court judges be bilingual. The association supports a merit-based process for appointing judges, but believes that bilingualism should be one of the selection criteria.

In May 2009, Commissioner of Official Languages Graham Fraser came to testify before the Standing Committee on Official Languages, which was then looking at the issue of access to justice. I will quote from what he said:

Every Canadian’s right to use English or French in Canadian courts is one of the basic language rights set out in our constitutional framework.

To ensure that all litigants have true access to the superior courts in the official language of their choice, it is essential that these courts have a sufficient number of bilingual judges at their disposal. The appointment process must therefore ensure the bilingual capacity of superior courts. Otherwise, access to justice in both official languages is compromised...

To date, the federal government’s responses to the recommendations of my predecessors and the House of Commons and Senate committees have been timid and largely inadequate.

...

On the eve of the 40th anniversary of the Official Languages Act, it seems to me that knowledge of both official languages should be one of the qualifications sought for judges of Canada’s highest court. Setting such a standard would prove to all Canadians that the Government of Canada is committed to linguistic duality. I find it essential that an institution as important as the Supreme Court of Canada not only be composed of judges with exceptional legal skills, but also reflect our values and our Canadian identity as a bijural and bilingual country.

Access to justice is one of the cornerstones of our judicial system. The insufficient bilingual capacity of the superior courts and courts of appeal of the provinces and territories means that a significant segment of the Canadian population is being denied the right to access justice in the official language of its choice.

...A review of the appointment process is essential to ensuring equal access to justice in both official languages.

[Jean-Claude D'Amours, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

And a francophone from outside Quebec no less, who should understand that francophones outside Quebec are also entitled to be served in their language, especially in the highest court in the land.

I am getting worked up, which might make things more difficult for the interpreters. It is insulting to hear such comments. We have to keep fighting to make the Conservatives understand the reality of things.

Bill C-232 introduced by the hon. member for Acadie—Bathurst, requiring Supreme Court judges to be bilingual, is a good move for a good cause.

[Jean-Claude D'Amours, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Madam Speaker, I am very happy to rise in the House this afternoon to express my support for Bill C-232, which was introduced by my colleague from Acadie—Bathurst.

Since I became a member of Parliament nearly six years ago, this member and I have sat together on the Standing Committee on Official Languages. We may not always see eye to eye, but we always work to the same end when it comes to bilingualism. We also promote bilingualism so that it plays an active role in Canadian society.

Today, the end is finally in sight for this bill my colleague introduced in the House, and I hope it will be passed in the near future.

My colleague from Bourassa introduced a similar bill, but it died on the order paper when the Conservative government hastily called an election in the fall of 2008.

This bill does not try to tell all Canadians that they have to be bilingual. That is not the purpose of the bill. But under this bill, all Canadians have the right to be heard in their own language in the Supreme Court. That is a huge difference. It is not imperative that all Canadians be bilingual, but we want every individual or lawyer who appears before the Supreme Court of Canada—the highest court in the country—to be able to use the language of his or her choice.

More and more, Canadians are realizing the importance of bilingualism, even though no one is required to be bilingual.

My colleague from Acadie—Bathurst named several organizations that support his bill. I will not repeat all their names, for I want to talk about something else. I would like to mention one, however, Canadian Parents for French. I say hats off to this group of anglophone parents who want to ensure that their children can receive an education in their second language. This will help them develop their bilingual skills in the areas of education, work and their social lives in general. This kind of organization or community group understands the importance of bilingualism. We must be able to continue supporting them.

Supreme Court judges sit on the highest court in the land. If someone is not satisfied with the Supreme Court ruling, we cannot tell them to plead their case to another court at a higher level. That is impossible, because that court is the highest court. Accordingly, we must provide adequate services to citizens who appear before it. To do so, we cannot forget certain things when trying a case.

For instance, my colleague from Acadie—Bathurst gets carried away now and again, but that is his nature. He uses expressions that are unique to him. In a speech, however, the expressions are just as important as the vocabulary one uses. Before a court, people speak passionately to get their point across. A judge's perception can be very different if simultaneous interpretation is used. Once again, it is not that the simultaneous interpretation is bad. On the contrary, it is an excellent service.

However, as we all can appreciate, defendants and their lawyers may talk so quickly that their way of speaking and the words they use could have completely different meanings for a francophone judge and an anglophone judge. Accordingly, judges must be able to speak and understand both official languages, so that defendants can be guaranteed that they can make themselves understood before the Supreme Court. If it does not work, at least they will have the satisfaction of knowing they took their case as far as they could.

They will have to take comfort in that fact that they were able to make their point fully without getting the impression that interpretation worked against them.

We have argued that the words used will be translated. My family name is D'Amours. It would be translated as Alove by those who can translate. That is not the same; it might be someone else's name. The purpose of this example is to show that this sort thing can make a difference when in court. I can completely change the meaning of a sentence or expression.

Bill C-232 introduced by my colleague does not require every Canadian to be bilingual and undergo training in both official languages. It provides that a citizen or lawyer will be able to plead a case before the highest court in the land in the language of their choice, knowing that the people in front of them understand what they are saying.

We are not talking about introducing a fourth, fifth, sixth or seventh language at the Supreme Court. We are talking about this country's two official languages: French and English. Both French and English-speaking people in my riding expect me to address them in their own language. People expect that much of a private member. They expect it even more when they go before the highest court in the land. They expect that they will be addressed in their own language and that the final judgment will be made on the basis of the message that was conveyed.

The Conservatives can say they are making an effort regarding the bilingualism of judges. The Supreme Court judge who replaced Justice Bastarache is bilingual, but this cannot just happen from time to time; it has to happen every time, with an emphasis on the word “every”.

I do not know why the Conservatives are against Supreme Court judges being bilingual. Very few people are against my colleague's bill. However, my colleague has realized that a number of members opposite are against the bill. We see that they are out of touch with reality.

[James Lunney, Conservative, Nanaimo—Alberni, BC]

Madam Speaker, with all due respect, I would like to remind my colleague, the member for Acadie—Bathurst, that unlike the Olympics, in order to be understood, it is not the speed of speech that is essential. But more practically, it is to be understood that is paramount.

To start, I would like to make something clear. On this side of the House, we have implemented a number of measures to protect and advance the issue of bilingualism in this country. I believe that languages can be used as a bridge or as a wall between peoples. In the House, these languages are often used both ways. I think that we need a lot more bridges.

After I was elected, I started studying to better communicate in French. However, I must admit that for an anglophone, it is a rather daunting task.

Today, in the House, we are debating a private members' bill from the member for Acadie—Bathurst, Bill C-232.

Bill C-232, An Act to amend the Supreme Court Act (understanding the official languages), would amend the Supreme Court Act to require that, as a condition of appointment to the Supreme Court of Canada, a candidate understand both English and French without the assistance of an interpreter.

I would like to repeat that the government is committed to enhancing the vitality of English and French linguistic minorities in Canada, and fostering the full recognition and use of both English and French in Canadian society. Let me assure everyone that we are equally committed to maintaining the highest quality of judicial appointments to ensure that our judiciary continues to enjoy the respect and confidence of all Canadians.

The Government of Canada recognizes the importance of supporting and assisting the development of official language minority communities. To that end, in June 2008, the government announced the “Roadmap for Canada's Linguistic Duality 2008-2013”, which is an unprecedented government-wide commitment with a budget of $1.1 billion based on two pillars: the participation of all in linguistic duality and support for official language minority communities in the priority sectors of health, justice, immigration, economic development, and arts and culture.

The composition of the court, including the number of judges, is established by the Supreme Court Act, which provides that at least three of the justices must come from Quebec. The recognition of the civil law tradition of the province of Quebec makes it necessary that there be representation of Quebec judges on the court reflective of the bijural traditions of Canada.

However, it is important to recognize that the court has historically also reflected the regional composition of our country. The current practice is one which is based, by statute and historical practice, on the recognition of Canadian legal pluralism, as well as the regional diversity in the appointment process.

As a matter of long-standing practice, the composition of the Supreme Court of Canada has reflected regional representation with three judges appointed from Ontario, one judge from Atlantic Canada, one judge from the Prairies, and one from British Columbia. Given its status as the final court of appeal for all Canadian jurisdictions, it is of key importance that the government be in a position to draw upon qualified jurists from all regions of the country when making appointments to the Supreme Court of Canada.

The effect of Bill C-232 would be to have linguistic considerations override the central consideration of merit by reducing the pool of otherwise highly-qualified candidates in some regions of the country where there may be fewer lawyers and judges capable of hearing a case in both official languages without the assistance of an interpreter.

To date, the government has made over 300 judicial appointments to Canadian courts. We are proud of each and every one of those appointments since they reflect the tangible embodiment of the principles of legal excellence and merit. The government will continue to make future appointments on this basis.

The overriding consideration in all judicial appointments is legal excellence and merit. Further criteria include proficiency in the law, judgment, work habits, writing and communication skills, honesty, integrity, fairness and social awareness. While bilingualism remains an important criterion considered in the nomination process, it is not, and should not be, an overriding factor in the appointment of judges to our highest court.

Our current process allows the government to take into account the bilingual capacity of candidates and to address the need for access to justice in both official languages. We are committed to ensuring that the federal judiciary's linguistic profile provides equal access to justice in either official language.

I would also point out that before making an appointment, consultations with the chief justice of the relevant court are taken into consideration to determine the court's needs, including linguistic capacity. The chief justice is well positioned to understand the needs of the communities served and to identify particular needs where vacancies arise. We also welcome the advice of any group or individuals on considerations which should be taken into account when filling current vacancies.

To ensure a rich pool of bilingual judicial candidates, the government continues to invite the French-speaking jurist associations and French-speaking communities to identify and encourage individuals, with the necessary qualifications, to apply and to share their recommendations with the Minister of Justice.

While we fully agree that linguistic ability is an important factor when a specific need is identified, merit remains the central and overriding consideration in making judicial appointments. The government is committed first and foremost to appointing the best qualified candidates. The government will continue to appoint excellent and committed candidates reflecting gender balance, cultural diversity and bilingual capacity.

The Supreme Court of Canada plays a fundamental role in our democratic society, particularly as the ultimate guardian of the values enshrined in the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. It is important that its members be jurists of great distinction and ability. For that reason, every care is taken to ensure that the best persons, by knowledge, experience and social awareness, are chosen to fill vacancies in the court.

The appointments to the Supreme Court over the past 130 years have proven to be successful in producing judges of the highest calibre for the court. Among the qualifies sought in potential candidates are outstanding intellectual capacity, superior ability in judgment writing, the capacity for innovative thinking on emerging legal issues, and sensitivity to the diverse values enshrined in the charter.

The eminent constitutional scholar, Peter Hogg, has offered the following description of the professional capacities and personal competencies of a Supreme Court of Canada judge as follows:

1. He [or she] must be able to resolve difficult legal issues, not just by virtue of technical legal skills, but also with wisdom, fairness and compassion.

2. [She] must have the energy and discipline to diligently study the materials that are filed in every appeal.

3. He must be able to maintain an open mind on every appeal until he has read all the pertinent material and heard from counsel on both sides.

4. [She] must always treat the counsel and the litigants who appear before [her] with patience and courtesy.

5. He must be able to write opinions that are well written and well reasoned.

6. [She] must be able to work cooperatively with [her] eight colleagues to help produce agreement on unanimous or majority decisions, and to do [her] share of the writing.

Canada can take pride in the quality of its judicial system and in the steps its taken to ensure its citizens have access to justice in either official language. The Supreme Court of Canada is a model of institutional bilingualism, which reflects the intent of Parliament that our national institutions be bilingual while not requiring bilingualism from each individual Canadian.

The government remains committed to ensuring quality and impartiality under the law. An important way to ensure such equality and impartiality is to continue to be guided by the principles of merit and legal excellence in the selection and appointment of judges to Canada's provincial, superior and federal courts and to the Supreme Court.

The risk of overriding merit for the sake of bilingualism is unnecessary. The goal of ensuring the rights of Canadians to be heard and understood in the language of their choice is already being fully met by the court. The court provides all of its services and communications in English and French. In addition, every individual who appears before the court is free to use either English or French in written and oral pleadings.

Ongoing language training is available to all members of the court. High quality interpretation and translation services are available during hearings before the court and all judges have the assistance of at least one or more bilingual law clerks.

The current composition requirements of the Supreme Court of Canada Act, together with the historical practice of regional representation, allows us to preserve our important commitment to legal pluralism--

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

moved that the bill be read the third time and passed.

Madam Speaker, I want to sincerely thank the members of this House who supported my bill at second reading and in committee. Bill C-232 will now be debated at third reading.

I would have liked Parliament to be unanimous on such an important bill. Unfortunately, one political party, the Conservatives, refused to support it. I hope they change their minds.

I am pleased to see that my bill has reached third reading, and I am happy to speak once again during the debate on this bill, which will become part of Canadian history.

When this bill was studied in committee, we had the chance to see that it was very well received all across Canada. Lawyers who have appeared before the Supreme Court many times, French-language jurists' associations from across the country, the New Brunswick bar association, the Fédération des communautés francophones et acadiennes, and the Commissioner of Official Languages, Graham Fraser, have all come out in favour of this bill.

As I have explained many times before, Bill C-232 will ensure that Supreme Court justices understand English and French without the assistance of an interpreter. This bill would correct a flaw that constitutes a threat to human rights in our country.

Currently, at the Supreme Court, which is the final court of appeal in our country, citizens' language rights are not respected. According to the Official Languages Act, every federal court has the duty to ensure that the language chosen by the parties is understood by the judge or other officer who hears those proceedings, without the assistance of an interpreter.

There is only one exception: the Supreme Court of Canada. That is rather ironic. In federal courts of appeal, the judges must understand both languages; however, that is not the case for judges of the Supreme Court of Canada.

The statutes of Canada are not written in one official language, then translated into the other. They are drafted bilingually, neither language taking precedence over the other. This means that the English law and the French law are inextricably linked and together form the Canadian law.

The ability to hear a case in both official languages is a skill. A point that is often raised by those opposing the bill is that very competent judges could be overlooked because they do not understand both official languages. That does not make sense. Given that the laws of this country have been written in both official languages without being translated, the ability to understand both versions of the law without translation is an important legal skill.

In this regard, Mr. Graham Fraser, the Official Languages Commissioner, said:

So when someone comes forward and says, or says about a candidate, that he is very competent, that he has all of this experience, but he doesn't have the ability to hear a case that's presented before the Supreme Court in the language in which that case is presented, then he is missing a critical competence. He is actually not as competent as a candidate for the Supreme Court who does have that ability.

On this same subject, Mr. Michel Doucet, a professor at the Université de Moncton who has argued before the Supreme Court at least seven times before, told the committee:

In my opinion, in a Canadian setting, with the legislation that we have and with our interpretation of bilingual legislation, to be competent to sit as a justice of the Supreme Court, one must understand both languages.

According to Christian Michaud, a lawyer who has argued before the Supreme Court:

The issue of a judge's bilingualism, in these conditions, is not a merely political issue that only deserves lip service, but it is an issue of capability and competence so that a judge can fully carry out the duties of his position.

In committee, Marie-Claude Bélanger-Richard, vice- president of the Law Society of New Brunswick said:

Competency in law involves more than the pure legal principles. If you want to be a good jurist, you have to know the law; you have to know the application of the law, but also have some sense of equity and justice.

The argument that requiring candidates to be bilingual would exclude the best ones is absurd. Understanding both official languages without the help of an interpreter is one of the most important competencies for judges in Canada.

Another argument used by those who oppose this bill is that there are not enough bilingual candidates in the country. Once again, this argument does not stick.

Representatives from the University of Toronto have said that they will support this bill and, as soon as it is passed, they will tell lawyers who wish to become judges that they must start learning the other language. They also said that they would not start right away since it is not yet a requirement.

Universities have said that they will be ready, as soon as the law comes into force, to offer language training. Graham Fraser, Commissioner of Official Languages, had this to say:

If Parliament were to pass this bill, it would send a powerful message to Canada's law schools that mastering both official languages is a prerequisite for full mastery of the law, and for qualification for the most important and prestigious positions in the Canadian judiciary.

These programs are not intended for the justices of the Supreme Court of Canada but for those starting out in their careers...Some law schools offer specialized courses. The University of Western Ontario, I believe, offers a specialized course for lawyers who want to master the technicalities of legal terminology in French. The earlier you learn a second language, the better.

Louise Aucoin, president of the Federation of Associations of French-speaking Jurists of Common Law, inc., also commented on this issue:

For those who may be wondering whether there are many bilingual or francophone lawyers in Canada, I'd like to point out that there are French-speaking jurists' associations in the four western provinces, in Ontario, in New Brunswick and in Nova Scotia. The seven francophone jurists' associations represent approximately 1,350 francophone jurists.

Over the last two years, a number of cases were heard without interpretation: the Halotier case, before the Yukon Court of Appeal; the Rémillard case before the Manitoba Court of Appeal; FFT versus NWT; the Caron case. These are all French cases which proceeded without interpretation.

Some people claim that no one is qualified in these provinces, but that is false. How many times have I heard people who oppose this bill—the Conservatives—say that it limits lawyers' and judges' chances of being appointed to the Supreme Court?

Violating the laws of this country, including language laws, to give someone the opportunity to sit on the Supreme Court should be out of the question. The Supreme Court, as well as appeal courts and federal courts, understand that this service is offered to all citizens.

It is the citizen who should feel at ease before the court and before the judge. The Conservatives should not refrain from changing the legislation to make this service bilingual just so they can play favourites with their cronies who do not speak both official languages.

Even the Commissioner of Official Languages says that if you want to be competent, you have to be able to understand your client and interpret what they are saying.

The only argument the government makes is that it will not be able to appoint who it wants, and it wants to choose very competent people. But we must recall very clearly that in order to be competent, as I said, you have to be able to understand the person. There are 33 million people in Canada. They cannot make me believe that they cannot find nine competent people who speak both languages.

I want one point to be very clear. I am not asking for there to be nothing but French speakers on the Supreme Court of Canada. Some English speakers understand English and French well. If they are English speakers, certainly they understand English, but they also understand French, both official languages, the languages of the two people who founded this country and who are supposed to be treated equally.

The Supreme Court has even made a decision in Ontario in which it said that it was not a matter of merely accommodating or providing services, it was also necessary to do so equally. At present, it is not equal.

If the legislation was written in both official languages, that is, if it was not interpreted, why would an individual agree, in the Supreme Court, that a judge not understand them in their own language and have to rely on translation? That is their final appeal.

Other opponents say they can rely on simultaneous interpretation. We have interpreters here, in the House of Commons. They have known me well for a long time. I am not criticizing our interpreters. They also work in the committees and they do a good job. Let me give an example. When I spoke at second reading, I started to speak as I normally do, a little fast, and the Speaker had to ask me to slow down a bit because the interpreters could not follow me. Think about if I were on trial, and the interpreter could not follow me, and the judge did not grasp everything they needed in order to render their judgment.

Justice John Major, an English-speaking former judge of the Supreme Court, testified. He said that during his time as a Supreme Court judge, he had used the services of interpreters and he received very good service. I would have liked to be there to ask him a question. With all due respect, if I, as a French speaker, use the interpretation service and I do not understand a word of the other language being translated, how can I know whether the interpreter is doing a good job? How can I know that if I cannot distinguish between the two languages? Justice Major of the Supreme Court said that he had received good service, but he does not know whether everything was interpreted properly. In order to be able to judge that, you have to understand both languages.

Sometimes, I am in a committee, and I find that a witness is speaking too fast and the interpreter is not following. I cannot grasp everything the witness is saying. So if I do not know that the interpreter has made a mistake and if I do not understand the other language, how can I say whether the service I received was good or bad? I can only say that I was impressed.

And so this bill is very important. Its purpose is to ensure that both official languages are respected in the highest federal court in this country. The Bloc Québécois supports me, as do the Liberals. I hope the Conservatives, too, respect both the official languages of this country and will join us to vote for this bill, so that the Supreme Court will finally be given the chance to be bilingual in the years to come.

The House proceeded to the consideration of Bill C-232, An Act to amend the Supreme Court Act (understanding the official languages), as reported (without amendment) from the committee.

Justice and Human Rights

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I have the honour to table, in both official languages, the second report of the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights.

In accordance with the order of reference of Wednesday, May 27, 2009, the committee has considered Bill C-232, An Act to amend the Supreme Court Act (understanding the official languages), and agreed on Wednesday, November 4, 2009 to report it without amendment.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Mr. Chairman, with all due respect, I have the agenda in front of me and I would like the Committee to follow that agenda—in other words, that we proceed with clause-by-clause consideration of Bill C-232, and then hear from the witnesses that are here representing the Correctional Service of Canada. If there is any time remaining, we can begin clause-by-clause consideration of Bill C-36. Further to my request, if we don't have enough time, we will be back here on November 16, and we can proceed based on the established order. We should not be trying to rush through things in the next few days.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Mr. Chair, here is how I understand the situation: On November 4th, we are going to study Bill C-232. We will hear from the two remaining witnesses. If we have any time left, we are going to begin clause-by-clause consideration. If we do not complete it by 5:30 p.m. on November 4th, we will do so on November 16th.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Does that mean that Bill C-232 would go as planned, first thing in the meeting on Wednesday?

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

I'm also opposed to it. I don't know what's happened. On Wednesday I expect we'll take the better part of the first half-hour, if there are no amendments to Mr. Godin's Bill C-232. So we'll use up a half-hour then. We then have two witnesses now scheduled. I don't know of any more, but this is what I was informed as of Friday, that we have two witnesses: Mr. Head, from Corrections Canada, from whom I expect we're going to need to get a fair amount of data, and then Professor Manson from Queen's, who also has a good deal of data to give us. I expect they would take up the balance of that hour and a half.

I don't know what's happened. I think I asked for—or somebody else asked, and I would certainly support—somebody coming from the Canadian Bar Association. I don't know whether they're scheduled. Then there were either two or three witnesses, as I understood, on the list coming from the Barreau du Québec, the criminal defence lawyers for Quebec, and from Aide Juridique du Quebec. I don't know what's happened to them, if they're coming, or if there's a problem with their coming on Wednesday. I don't know what the problem is there, but I would expect that if some of them could be available, we might be able to plug one or two of them in. But that would be it, and we'd have to then finish the witnesses on the 16th, which is what I'm looking for.

A final point that I would make with regard to witnesses is that I'm still trying to get at least one and perhaps two other witnesses. It's very difficult, because of the nature of who they are, to get them to be willing to consent to come publicly with their testimony.

The final point I would make is to confirm, besides the question on the scheduling on Wednesday, that clearly we are not going to be able to go beyond 5:30, because of the votes that are scheduled. There's just no jurisdiction here, either in the chair or the committee, to prolong the meeting beyond 5:30 on Wednesday.

So I think the prudent thing to do is to vote against this motion and leave the scheduling, so that we would still have the opportunity to have witnesses on the 16th and finish clause-by-clause on the 16th. I'm not anticipating, from having talked to all parties now, any amendments. As far as I can see, there aren't going to be any amendments, so that we could deal with clause-by-clause on the 16th and finish it at that point.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

No, wait, we will not stay here to fight about it all afternoon. I agree with you. We tried to reach the witnesses. Some of them are unable to come, and that is par for the course.

However, I don't want to be stuck in the situation where we would have to start on Wednesday at 5:30 p.m. and finish Wednesday evening or Thursday morning. I don't want that. We can do it at a later date. On the 16th we will have clause-by-clause consideration of Bill C-36. I would like us to take the time to hear from our witnesses, study Bill C-232 as required, and at the following meeting, meaning on the 16th, do clause-by-clause consideration of Bill C-36.

What is the national emergency, where's the fire?

[Rob Moore, Conservative, Fundy Royal, NB]

Yes, correct, that's what I would like to see from the motion. It says “that the meeting not adjourn until clause by clause consideration is complete”. After hearing witnesses on Bill C-36, we would then start and finish clause-by-clause on Bill C-36 by the end of the meeting on Wednesday.

If I hear what the chair is saying with regard to our schedule, it seems quite doable to me to finish Bill C-232 clause-by-clause, hear witnesses on Bill C-36, and then do clause-by-clause on Bill C-36 on Wednesday.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Let me tell you what is preliminarily scheduled for our next meeting. We have two more witnesses on Bill C-36, Allan Manson and the Correctional Service of Canada, which will provide us with some statistics. Then we were going to go to clause-by-clause on Bill C-36 and Bill C-232. I don't expect that Bill C-232 will take much time. Is the government proposing any amendments to Bill C-232?

[Rob Moore, Conservative, Fundy Royal, NB]

We are already scheduled to do clause-by-clause, I think, on Bill C-232.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

There are two other items. We're moving on to a review of Bill C-52. It's tentatively scheduled for November 16, which is the first meeting after the break. I want to make sure everybody knows we need a list of witnesses on Bill C-52. You have your formal notice. Please submit to us the list of witnesses you'd like to hear on Bill C-52, which is the white collar crime legislation.

Since we'll be moving to clause-by-clause on Bill C-36 some time in the very near future, depending on the outcome of the motion, we'd like to have your amendments as soon as possible.

It's the same thing for Bill C-232. We want to move toward clause-by-clause on that as well, so if you have amendments to that bill please get them to the clerk as soon as possible.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Yes.

I also have a legal background and I'm also trying to learn French here as a member of Parliament.

I'm thinking of the experience in British Columbia, if I'm someone born and raised in British Columbia and I make law my career, with my goal being to invest in my province. Yet somewhere along the line, someone tells me about the only way I could ever aspire to the highest court in the land. They tell me that not only am I going to have to get my schooling outside British Columbia, but I'm also going to have to immerse myself in a legal setting outside British Columbia, because we don't have a French environment in British Columbia. So inordinate periods of time will be spent outside my province, the one that I'm committed to serving.

As you know, the reason we have judges from across Canada is to reflect the regions, yet I won't be able to reflect my region on the highest court in the land because I'm going to have to spend so much time outside my province to get to that language capacity I require, which is an incredibly high one, based on my reading of Bill C-232. You can see the struggle I have.

It's not a matter of supporting bilingualism or not. The level of language capacity required under this bill is incredibly high because it involves technical legal matters. Especially in British Columbia and Alberta, the pool from which Supreme Court judges could be selected is very small. We have bilingual lawyers in British Columbia, but at the level that's required under this bill, it's a very, very small pool.

[Marie-Claude Bélanger-Richard, Vice-President, Law Society of New Brunswick]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'm quite pleased, on behalf of the Law Society of New Brunswick, to have accepted the invitation to appear before this committee. I'd like to commend the chairman on his new term within the committee.

I am the Vice-President of the Law Society of New Brunswick. I've been a lawyer for 23 years and in private practice for 17 years, having articled for approximately 4 years in the administration of justice, more specifically at the New Brunswick Court of Queen's Bench. As you know, New Brunswick is a bilingual province which unequivocally recognizes the legal status of French and English within the justice system. In our province litigants have the right to proceed in the language of their choice, which is very important, to be understood by the trial judge or by a panel of judges hearing the case in the language of the litigant's choice.

We have prepared a brief document to outline the position of New Brunswick. On the first page you'll find a section entitled "Insight from New Brunswick". It includes sections of the New Brunswick Official Languages Act. I would like to point out that under section 18 of the act, no person shall be placed at a disadvantage by reason of the choice he or she has made as to the language used in proceedings. In New Brunswick, that is a very important aspect of the Official Languages Act.

The Law Society of New Brunswick supports Bill C-232. As mentioned by a number of individuals and representatives who have already appeared before your committee, in light of the evolution of this country and of linguistic rights since the advent of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, oral and written understanding of legal proceedings through translation or interpretation before the highest court in the land is a legislative anomaly. Even with the best intentions, for the individual trying to understand and for the interpreter, interpretation or translation do not necessarily reflect the essence of a text, the nature of an expression or of a word, the tone or the force of an argument. Moreover, because our laws are bilingual, it goes without saying that an understanding of French and English can open the door to a determination based on subtleties of language or syntax. Thereby the necessity of understanding French and English, in order to arrive at a wise determination of the interpretation of our laws.

Bill C-232 is quite laudable. As I mentioned, the Law Society of New Brunswick supports it. However, there is one concern. Despite the relevance of the problem and its timeliness, Bill C-232 does not immediately rectify the situation. As mentioned by Yvon Godin, member of Parliament, the proposed provision would only apply to any new appointment of justices on the Supreme Court of Canada. Until such time as there are only bilingual judges sitting on the Supreme Court of Canada, the problem of being understood in the language of one's choice by the highest court in the land persists.

What the Law Society of New Brunswick proposes may seem like an interim measure, but in fact, we view this recommendation as a long-term solution to the problem all those who support this bill have attempted to address. Litigants, lawyers and judges all want a fair solution that addresses the needs of litigants. The Law Society of New Brunswick's recommendation is therefore to require that all Supreme Court justices presiding understand the official language of proceedings or both official languages if both are used in proceedings.

Under the Supreme Court Act the quorum for hearings before the Supreme Court of Canada is of five judges. By immediately enacting what we are suggesting as a legislative change, during hearings the understanding of one of the two official languages used in the proceeding would be required. This requirement would not in any way negatively affect the operations of the Supreme Court of Canada and would immediately serve to address the problem. Indeed, it would mean that litigants could immediately be heard and understood by the Supreme Court of Canada.

On page 3 of our brief you will find the proposed amendment. Rather than amending section 5 of the Supreme Court of Canada Act, there would be an amendment to section 28, regarding the inability for judges to sit in some cases, by adding two paragraphs specifying that in order to hear a proceeding, all judges on the Supreme Court of Canada must understand the language of the proceeding.

I am prepared to entertain your questions.

I thank you for your attention.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Thank you, Madam Clerk, and thank you, committee, for your confidence.

We're in meeting number 35 of the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights. Today is Wednesday, September 30, 2009.

As you have seen, the agenda for today contains only one item, which is the election of the chair and the vice-chairs. In order for us to continue and hear a witness on Bill C-232, we need to have the unanimous consent of the committee. Do I have that unanimous consent? All right. For the record, we have unanimous consent to proceed.

We are proceeding with Bill C-232, An Act to amend the Supreme Court Act (understanding the official languages). It's my pleasure to welcome here to our committee the representative from the Law Society of New Brunswick, Marie-Claude Bélanger-Richard. Welcome here.

I think you've been told that you have 10 minutes to present. Then we're going to open up the floor to questions from our members. Please go ahead.

[Graham Fraser, Commissioner, Office of the Commissioner of Official Languages]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Chairman, honourable members, I would first like to thank you for giving me the opportunity to speak to you about my position on Bill C-232, which amends a section of the Supreme Court Act on the bilingualism of judges.

Over the past 40 years since the royal assent of the Official Languages Act, language rights have developed and advanced in Canada through lengthy discussions led by three key stakeholders. Initiated by the Parliament of Canada when the Royal Commission on Bilingualism and Biculturalism was formed, this discussion also mobilized the Canadian public and the courts, especially the Supreme Court.

The dialogue surrounding the application of the Official Languages Act and the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms has led to new case law, building on the relationship between Canada's English-speaking and French-speaking peoples. It is a relationship that has defined our past, that informs our present and that will continue to shape our future.

One of the most eloquent statements on the importance of language as part of personal and collective identity comes from a Supreme Court decision in the Ford case in 1988, and I quote:

Language is not merely a means of interpersonal communication and influence. It is not merely a carrier of content, whether latent or manifest. Language itself is content, a reference for loyalties and animosities, an indicator of social statuses and personal relationships, a marker of situations and topics as well as of the societal goals and the large-scale value-laden arenas of interaction that typify every speech community.

This view that the Supreme Court expressed so eloquently has influenced my position on the debate that brings us here today.

The bijural nature of Canada's legal system is another factor that has influenced me. Canada has not one legal system but two. We're one of a small group of countries to enjoy the richness of both common law, which originated in Great Britain, and the civil code, which flowed from Roman law to the Napoleonic code, to New France, Lower Canada, and then Quebec. This is a huge asset for our legal tradition and for many of our lawyers who function within both legal traditions, which together cover most of the world.

As the American legal scholar John Henry Merryman wrote: “It is difficult to overstate the influence of the civil law tradition on the law of specific nations, the law of international organizations, and international law.”

This does not mean that all Supreme Court judges should be educated in both common law and the civil code, but they should be able to hear arguments from counsel who've been trained in either tradition, in English or in French, without requiring interpretation. As you know, Canadian laws are not translated; they are written in both English and French. The judges in the highest court of the land should therefore be able to understand nuances found within them when there is a difference between the two versions.

If Parliament were to pass this bill, it would send a powerful message to Canada's law schools that mastering both official languages is a pre-requisite for full mastery of the law, and for qualification for the most important and prestigious positions in the Canadian judiciary.

The nature of Canadian linguistic duality means that Canadians have a right to be served by the state in the language of their choice; it is, in effect, a right to be unilingual. The state is officially bilingual so that the citizen does not have to be. And citizens can live full and prosperous lives in Canada speaking only one official language, with no need to learn the other. This puts the burden of bilingualism on the state, and more particularly, on those who play national leadership roles.

Parliament has recognized the need for every federal court to be able to conduct proceedings in either English or in French. Paradoxically, there's only one exception: the Supreme Court. In my view this has perpetuated an unfortunate separation.

Over 30 years ago, the late Jules Deschênes, the Chief Justice of the Superior Court of Quebec, gave a speech in Toronto in which he warned of what he called legal separatism. I quote:

“Quebec has shown the willingness and the ability to contribute to the building of [...] a national scheme of federal law, but the legal community of the rest of Canada has, by and large, closed itself off and away by simply ignoring the Quebec contribution,” he said. “There now exists an actual separation in legal Canada, but it has been worked upon Quebec from without, not by Quebec from within.”

He noted that the academic legal work that had been done in Quebec had gone unnoticed in the rest of Canada in the fields of commercial law, criminal law, and administrative law, and he went on to compare the absence of citation of Quebec decisions.

One of the more impressive things about the Supreme Court has been how much more bilingual it became over the three decades since Deschênes spoke, but it only takes one unilingual judge to require that all discussions occur in one language only.

The debates surrounding the appointment of bilingual judges is nothing new. Like my predecessors, I have already expressed my view on the matter at various forums. In May 2008, I appeared before the House of Commons Standing Committee on Official Languages and shared my view on the appointment process for the next Supreme Court of Canada judge. At that time, I pointed out that knowledge of both official languages should be among the desired qualifications for judges of the highest court of the land. In my opinion, such a standard would show all Canadians that the Government of Canada is committed to linguistic duality, in a way that is both symbolic and practical.

One year later, I still hold this belief. In fact, it seems essential to me that an institution as important as the Supreme Court of Canada not only be composed of judges with exceptional legal skills, but also reflect our values and our Canadian identity as a bijural and bilingual country.

We all know that the Supreme Court Act stipulates that there must be regional representation in the court. This important principle is strongly supported by both the public and parliamentarians. However, I find it strange that this principle is used as an argument against recognizing bilingualism as an essential qualification. I also find it hard to accept the argument that requiring Supreme Court judges to be bilingual would compromise the rights of a unilingual individual who might want to access a seat in Canada's higher court.

On the one hand, knowledge of a language is a qualification that can be acquired. On the other hand, bilingualism is already a requirement for judges of other courts in the country and for some 72,000 positions in the federal administration, so that Canadians can receive adequate service. I don't think that the bar should be set lower for Supreme Court judges.

In order to respect all Canadians, it's important to ensure that they are all served by judges of the highest distinction and greatest ability, who can hear and understand a case in either official language. Given the complexity and the extreme importance of the cases heard by this court, judges should be able to hear arguments presented to them without using an interpreter to understand nuanced and complex legal arguments.

I recognize the importance of selecting candidates for the judiciary based on each candidate's professional skills and merit. Where the judicial appointment process is concerned, bilingualism is an important criterion and should be a primary factor of candidates' merit and legal excellence.

The amendment proposed in Bill C-232 is for bilingualism to be a prerequisite for appointment. I strongly support this amendment.

Thank you very much.

Now I would like to answer your questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

We are now reconvening the meeting.

We're pleased to welcome a number of further witnesses to assist us in our review of Bill C-232. I welcome Graham Fraser, our Commissioner of Official Languages, and with him are Pascale Giguère and Christine Ruest Norrena of the legal affairs branch.

Welcome to all of you. I think you understand that you've got 10 minutes for a presentation and then we'll open up the floor to questions from our members.

Mr. Fraser, you've got 10 minutes.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

In order to understand the subtleties of the law and apply them in full, one must at least understand both official languages.

Thus, it is now clear that language proficiency is essential in order to serve as a judge. We must therefore see to it.

My bill will do nothing to eliminate competent candidates: the contrary is true, since in order to be competent, candidates must be familiar with the law as it stands. If statutes are written without translation, why should we allow a unilingual judge to use a translation in order to understand the law written in a language he or she does not understand?

Who would tolerate having a judge at the highest level whose unilingualism means that he or she is familiar with only half the law and is thus partial?

Judges must be able without the help of an interpreter to understand correctly the parties in the case before them, in order to make decisions that are as impartial and objective as possible. Otherwise, the parties run the risk of suffering significant harm. No one wants their future decided by an ill-informed judge.

It is therefore crucial for Supreme Court judges to understand the law as it stands in its duality in order to protect our rights.

Simultaneous interpretation or translation is not enough: they leave room for interpretation which often tends to stray from the initial meaning.

Moreover, interpretation will not necessarily make it possible to understand all of the content of discussions that took place before the case came before the Supreme Court.

As the Commissioner of Official Languages has so rightly pointed out:

...it seems to me that knowledge of both official languages should be one of the qualifications sought for judges of Canada's highest court. Setting such a standard would prove to all Canadians that the Government of Canada is committed to linguistic duality.

I find it essential that an institution as important as the Supreme Court of Canada not only be composed of judges with exceptional legal skills, but also reflect our values and our Canadian identity as a bijural and bilingual country.

In another connection, under the Official Languages Act, every federal court is required to ensure that the language chosen by the parties in its proceedings is understood by the judge or other officer who hears those proceedings without the assistance of an interpreter. There is one exception: the Supreme Court.

It is not fair that the act applies to such bodies as the Federal Court, the Federal Court of Appeal and the Tax Court of Canada, but not to the Supreme Court.

Why should the Supreme Court be an exception? The law should be the same for everyone. On February 5, 2009, in the CALDECH case, the Supreme Court made a decision stating, among other things, that the federal government has a constitutional obligation to provide the public with services of equal quality in both official languages.

The Commissioner of Official Languages has said it is an important principle that clarifies the scope of the Official Languages Act.

According to this judgment, equality is not to be interpreted narrowly: the government, rather, should consider the nature of the service in question and its purpose when defining its linguistic obligations.

In light of this judgment, Bill C-232 acquires its full meaning and becomes all the more relevant and legitimate.

In Canada, French enjoys equality of status and use with English. No party, therefore, whether francophone or anglophone, should be heard through interpretation or any other means before the highest court in the land.

Let us acknowledge, once and for all, the importance of being understood without the help of interpretation or other means.

The current process for appointing federal judges, including Supreme Court justices, fails to give sufficient consideration to language rights.

The lack of any mechanism for assessing the language proficiency of candidates demonstrates the scant importance attached to this fact when judges are appointed. The right to use a language before a court also includes the right to be understood directly in that language. What is the purpose of the right to express oneself in one's own language, if those addressed do not understand it?

It is important for every party to be heard under conditions that do not place it at a disadvantage in relation to any other party.

In order for Supreme Court decisions to be made in full knowledge of all the facts, and for all Canadians to be entitled to a fair trial, join me in an historic act and show your support for Bill C-232. Let us all work to support this cause.

Without disrupting the existing system, my bill will make it possible in the long term to avoid appointments that are against the spirit of the act and the charter. We shall thus be able to do more to ensure respect for the right to equal status, and the vitality of linguistic communities.

How many seconds do I have left?

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ladies and gentlemen,

members of the Standing Committee on Justice, bonjour.

If I am here today, it is because the legislation contains a loophole that threatens individual rights in our country. I believe that we have the responsibility as parliamentarians to fix it.

I would like to welcome the witnesses who are here today.

Dear colleagues, you may one day have to appear before the Supreme Court of Canada, or experience the consequences of a decision made by that level if you have not already done so.

Imagine what it means to be a victim of an injustice because you have not been properly understood. Imagine that a judge who is deciding on your fate is unable to get clarifications in a timely manner because the translation or the interpretation has prevented this from happening.

Imagine what happens when judges discuss your future between themselves outside the room, where translation and interpretation services aren't available. Imagine the consequences.

This year is the 40th anniversary of the Official Languages Act and I want, along with you, to protect a fundamental right of all Canadians: the right to a just and fair trial.

In pursuit of that goal, I propose to you Bill C-232, the purpose of which is to ensure that future judges appointed to the Supreme Court understand English and French without the help of an interpreter. The measure will not apply to the present incumbents.

I want to explain to you the reasons for this bill.

First, Canadian laws are not written in one language and then translated: they are written simultaneously in both official languages. No one version takes precedence over the other. In short, this means that the English act and the French act together constitute Canadian legislation, and they cannot be separated.

The Official Languages Act and the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms are designed to preserve the historic achievement. Consequently, in order to understand the subtleties.... I hope I say it right.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

We'll reconvene the meeting.

We're pleased to welcome a number of witnesses to assist us with our review of Bill C-232. First of all, I want to welcome our colleague, Monsieur Yvon Godin. Also, we have with us the Fédération des associations de juristes d'expression française de common law inc., represented by Louise Aucoin, who is the president, as well as by Rénald Rémillard, who is the executive director. Then we have two individuals appearing: Michel Doucet, who is a lawyer and full professor at the faculty of law at the University of Moncton, as well as Christian Michaud, a constitutional language rights lawyer with Cox & Palmer.

Welcome to all of you.

Each of you will have five minutes to present, except for Monsieur Godin. Because it's his bill, we're going to give him 10 minutes. Then we'll open the floor up for questions.

Monsieur Godin, would you like to start?

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

I call the meeting to order.

This is the thirty-first meeting of the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights. Today is Monday, June 15, 2009.

You have before you the agenda for today. In the first hour, we'll hear one witness on our study on declaring certain groups criminal organizations. During the second hour, we'll begin our review of Bill C-232, An Act to amend the Supreme Court Act (understanding the official languages).

I'm hoping that at the end of our meeting we will leave 10 minutes for a brief in camera discussion on our study plan, because there is an issue that has come up about perhaps bringing in a witness early for next meeting. I'd like to leave 10 minutes for that.

First of all, I'm pleased to welcome Paul Burstein, a lawyer with the firm of Burstein, Unger--from Winnipeg, I believe--who will be assisting us with our study on declaring certain groups criminal organizations.

You're actually from Toronto. That's where your firm is based.

The House resumed from May 26 consideration of the motion that Bill C-232, An Act to amend the Supreme Court Act (understanding the official languages), be read the second time and referred to a committee.

Supreme Court Act

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Mr. Speaker, first I would like to thank the House which, through the democratic process, has debated Bill C-232. This legislation is important for all Canadians using either official languages. My arguments can be summarized with the following question: do we accept the fact that our country has two official languages?

I also want to thank the members for Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, Hochelaga, Outremont, Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, Burnaby—New Westminster and Fundy Royal, for their comments.

I would like to correct something that the member for Fundy Royal said. He said that the member for Acadie—Bathurst had mentioned that interpreters in the House of Commons were less competent than other ones. I never said that, and the member should apologize. That is not what I said. I said that in committees—and this has nothing to do with the quality of our interpreters—when a person speaks rather quickly, like me, sometimes the interpreters cannot keep up with that person. They ask me to slow down. In committee, we often get messages from interpreters telling us that we talk too fast. They ask us to slow down a bit.

Let us imagine that we are at the Supreme Court, the highest court in the land, and that a judge or a lawyer says that he did not understand something. This is the highest court in the land, in a country that claims to be bilingual, that has two official languages and that passes legislation in Parliament that is drafted in English and French. So, I am asking myself a question. When a judge has heard a case and returns to his office, does he take an interpreter with him to translate the French act, or to read the English legislation? Where is the justice here?

Four or five years ago, the current Prime Minister of Canada did not speak French as well as he does now. He has learned French, and I congratulate him for doing so. He knows that if he wants to serve our country, he must speak both languages. I will make no bones about the fact that, seven years ago, the NDP leader also did not speak French as well as he does now. He made an effort. However, the judges on the Supreme Court of Canada do not have to make that effort. They hear cases, but the citizens involved cannot go to the United Nations to appeal the decision. The Supreme Court of Canada is the last resort.

There will be a vote tomorrow evening. I am calling upon Parliament to support Bill C-232, which states clearly that the judge must be capable of reading and understanding the law in both of this country's official languages. Voting in favour of this bill at second reading means it will go to committee and there it will be studied and we will hear from experts. The Canadian Bar Association, the Association des juristes d'expression française du Canada, the Young Bar Association of Montreal, the Fédération des communautés francophones et acadienne du Canada, the Quebec Community Groups Network, and even the Premier of Quebec support the bill. They can see that it is a good bill. Why not study it in committee?

The Conservators choose not to. They do not even want it to go to committee. This is regrettable, coming from a government that claims to respect our two official languages. Even the Commissioner of Official Languages says it is essential to send a message. Even university spokespersons from Toronto say it would be a good thing. In four or five years, someone aspiring to a position on the Supreme Court will learn both official languages.

That would show respect for the two communities in our country.

I sincerely call upon the House of Commons for its support. This bill can be studied and then we will decide whether it will become law in this country, but let us give it a chance.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

Mr. Speaker, enough is enough. This bill is quite simple. It deals with the traditions that have existed at the Supreme Court of Canada for a long time. The Conservatives say that they will oppose the bill introduced by my colleague from Acadie—Bathurst, which puts in place something that is already a tradition in this country.

Why? It is quite simple. A Supreme Court justice is not fully competent unless he understands both common law in English and the civil code in French. This is the minimum qualification for becoming a Supreme Court justice. However, the Conservative government refuses to accept the facts. It is precisely because it is incapable of understanding the qualifications required in the Supreme Court of Canada that Bill C-232 was introduced by the member for Acadie—Bathurst.

We have just been told that the Conservative government does not think that British Columbians can speak French. That just goes to show how out of touch the Conservative government is with the people, particularly the people of British Columbia. In the past, the Minister of Finance has even said that his Canada starts at the Atlantic Ocean and ends at the Rocky Mountains. He left out British Columbia entirely. It is clear that the Conservative government does not understand that British Columbia is one of the provinces in which the francophone population is growing in absolute numbers.

When I was a child, there were only two francophone schools. Now there are dozens of them. We have sixty or so in British Columbia because we have francophones from all over. We have a whole rainbow of francophones from Africa, Asia, Europe, Quebec of course, Acadia and western Canada. They all speak French as their first language, and that is changing British Columbia tremendously.

That is not all. More students attend immersion schools in British Columbia than anywhere else in Canada. Our schools are packed. Sometimes parents wait in line all weekend long to register their kids at these schools.

For the Conservative government to suggest that British Columbians cannot speak French is insulting. It is simply not true. It is insulting to the people of British Columbia and to people elsewhere in Canada.

With respect to qualifications, it is clear that people are going to immersion schools and even to management schools. These people understand French well, can speak it, and are studying law. At some point in time, they will meet the minimum requirements for the Supreme Court: they will understand common law in English and the civil code in French.

I certainly do not understand this drive by the Conservatives to lower standards. We have seen it in a whole variety of things, such as air safety, transportation safety, and food safety.

The Conservative government always seems to want to push for lower qualifications. There are two basic qualifications for a Supreme Court judge: the ability to understand the civil code in French and the ability to understand common law in English. Those are simple and important requirements only at the Supreme Court level. The Conservatives do not seem to understand that and that is why we have the bill that is before us today.

The idea that higher standards and stronger qualifications are not taken into consideration is something that I find objectionable. That we need a lower standard of service, that we do not need the qualifications that have served us well in the past seems, in many areas, to be the objective of the Conservative government.

That is why the Conservatives are opposing this simple but important private member's bill put forward by the member for Acadie—Bathurst. The bill would reinforce those qualifications and standards to ensure that every Supreme Court judge understands the civil code in French as well as common law in English. I would be equally opposed if the Conservatives appointed unilingual Francophones who do not understand common law in English because the function of the Supreme Court is too important to do that.

However, that is not what the Conservatives are saying. They seem to be saying they are just going to choose whatever standards they want. We have seen what that has meant in a whole variety of areas. We have seen poor financial management from the government. Those qualifications are unfortunate, but that is the net result. We have seen a whole variety of lower safety standards. We see this drive from the government that does not make sense.

I do not accept lower qualifications and I do not think any member of Parliament should. We should set a higher bar and this legislation would set the bar to what traditionally we all understood, that a Supreme Court justice needs to understand common law in English and the civil code in French. It is very simple. Nothing has to go through translation, nothing has to go through interpretation. Supreme Court judges must be able to function adequately in the two official languages, so that they can pass through the two legal codes that are often written in two different languages.

That is the issue that is before us. We hope that the Liberal Party of Canada will support this bill. We know that the Bloc Québécois said it would support the bill and that the NDP has always been consistent when it comes to the issue of official languages. It is not just the member for Acadie—Bathurst who is fighting a pitched battle to win respect for the official languages in Canada. The entire New Democratic Party has done so since it was formed, and not just at the federal level, but in all the provinces, including mine, British Columbia. It is the NDP that has brought about these changes to respect linguistic duality in Canada.

In British Columbia, a French-language school system was created under an NDP government, as in Saskatchewan. In Manitoba, the official languages bill was introduced and implemented by an NDP government. In Alberta, it was Léo Piquette, an NDP MLA, who pushed for respect for the official languages. In the Yukon, it was an NDP government that introduced the bill to respect French and English. In Ontario, the college system was put in place by an NDP government, and in the Atlantic provinces, NDP MLAs were among those who pushed hardest for language rights.

We are not two-faced. When a New Democrat talks about official languages in British Columbia, Manitoba or the Atlantic provinces, he or she pushes for mutual respect and linguistic duality. We do not act like certain other parties that may say they are in favour of the official languages in this House, but who start attacking the official languages as soon as they leave Ottawa.

We have seen this with the Conservative Party, with the Reform Party and, sadly, with the Liberal Party in western Canada. Outside Ottawa, the Liberal Party has always attacked francophones at the provincial level. Unfortunately, the Liberal Party has a sad history of saying one thing in Manitoba, British Columbia or Saskatchewan, but another thing in Ottawa.

We are consistent. We are the only party in the history of the country that has always been consistent on the issue of official languages. That is why we fully support this bill. That is also why we support the principle that a judge should have the qualifications to become a Supreme Court justice. In other words, judges must be able to understand common law in English and the civil code in French. That is why we will vote for this bill.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Public Works and Government Services and to the Minister of National Revenue]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise today to speak to Bill C-232, An Act to amend the Supreme Court Act (understanding the official languages). This bill would introduce a new requirement for judges appointed to the Supreme Court to understand English and French without the assistance of an interpreter.

The government firmly supports the promotion of English and French in Canadian society. As Canadians, we are proud of our bilingual institutions and especially the Supreme Court of Canada, which plays a fundamental role in our democratic society as the ultimate protector of the values set out in the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. The government's commitment to ensuring our courts have sufficient linguistic capability to guarantee access to a court in one or the other of the official languages applies to the Supreme Court of Canada as well.

The Governor in Council, on the recommendation of the Prime Minister, makes the appointments to the Supreme Court. The justices in this court must be of the highest calibre. Accordingly, persons with the best legal knowledge and abilities must be chosen to fill the available positions.

The Supreme Court Act provides for the composition of the court and the number of judges. It provides that at least three justices must come from Quebec. The composition of the Supreme Court of Canada reflects regional representation. The rest of the judges appointed come from Ontario, the Atlantic provinces, the prairies and British Columbia. The practice of ensuring regional representation guarantees that the most highly qualified and deserving candidates in the country are appointed to serve on the Supreme Court.

That does not mean, however, that everyone appointed to the court must be bilingual. In fact, the special nature of the Supreme Court as the highest court in the land and the fact that it has only nine judges from the various regions of Canada prompted Parliament to make an exception to the application of subsection 16(1) of the Official Languages Act in 1988. Bill C-232 proposes to circumvent this exception. This would harm regional representation on the court.

The government's position is that the proposed amendments are not needed to guarantee access to the court in one or the other official language. The Supreme Court, as an institution, makes all its services and communications available in both official languages. Anyone appearing before the court has the choice of using English or French, in the presentation of both legal proceedings and arguments. The decisions of the court are also published in both official languages, and this helps establish ever expanding bilingual jurisprudence for all Canadians to consult.

The court shows on an ongoing basis that it is capable of performing its duties at the highest level in both official languages. There is nothing to indicate that the court has provided less than the highest quality legal services Canadians deserve and expect. I would ask hon. members to bear in mind the risk that the passage of this bill represents, especially since no one has implied that the justice meted out by the court is of anything less than the highest quality.

The proposed changes would make bilingualism a prerequisite for appointment. In view of the complexity and great importance of the cases heard by the court, judges must have more than perfect linguistic skills to understand subtle, complex legal arguments based on a profusion of factual evidence. An obligatory requirement like this would limit the pool of qualified candidates from parts of the country where the percentage of judges able to hear cases in both official languages is not as high as in Quebec or New Brunswick, for example.

The government obviously agrees that linguistic skills are a major factor in the process for selecting judges to sit on superior courts, including the Supreme Court. We will continue to give them ample consideration, as we did in our last appointment to the court, Justice Thomas Cromwell, an eminent jurist who is perfectly bilingual, highly qualified, and very worthy.

That being said, the Supreme Court is at the very apex of our legal system, and in view of the important role it plays, the government feels that the overriding factor in the appointment of judges is and must remain merit based on legal excellence and personal aptitude.

Bilingualism is an important factor in the evaluation of candidates, but only one factor among others, including proficiency in the law, sound judgment, work habits, honesty, integrity, a sense of fairness and a social conscience.

We are very aware of the fact that our courts must have sufficient linguistic capacity to provide equal access to justice in French and English.

We should also distinguish between institutional bilingualism, which is historically part of the government’s responsibility to ensure that Canadian citizens are served in both English and French, and individual bilingualism, as advocated in Bill C-232.

At the present time, the Supreme Court, as an institution, provides services of the highest quality in both official languages.

The effect of Bill C-232 would be that linguistic considerations would overshadow the most important consideration of all, merit, by reducing the pool of otherwise highly qualified candidates from parts of the country where there may be fewer lawyers and judges who are capable of handling cases in both official languages.

It is not necessary to run the risk that the merit principle will be pushed aside out of a concern for bilingualism. The court already fully meets its objective of ensuring that Canadians have a right to be judged in the official language of their choice. All court services and communications are provided in both English and French.

All the current judges on the Supreme Court, with one exception, are perfectly proficient in both official languages and able to try cases in either official language without an interpreter. The judges also have the benefit of ongoing language training.

High quality interpretation and translation services are provided during court hearings and all judges are assisted by one or more bilingual employees.

The current requirements of the Supreme Court Act regarding the composition of the Court and the historical practice of regional representation allow us to fulfill our important commitment to legal pluralism, while ensuring that the people of Canada are served by judges who are very distinguished and extremely proficient.

The current court structure has provided Canadians with a solid, independent legal branch that is the envy of free, democratic countries around the world.

The quality of the current members of the Supreme Court of Canada and their commitment to the job demonstrate how seriously the current government and previous administrations have always taken their responsibility to appoint judges to the highest tribunal in the land.

Bilingualism is one important factor in the process for selecting judges. However, it should not be allowed to outweigh the most important factor of all: a candidate’s merit and legal excellence.

For the reasons just outlined, we recommend that the members oppose Bill C-232.

[Thomas Mulcair, NDP, Outremont, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I too am extremely proud to support this important bill, Bill C-232, introduced by my colleague from Acadie—Bathurst. The bill proposes an extremely simple criterion for determining whether a person can be appointed to the Supreme Court or not:

In addition, any person referred to in subsection (1) may be appointed a judge who understands French and English without the assistance of an interpreter.

It is difficult to determine the degree of understanding of another language necessary to carry out a task. In Quebec, the first criteria were set out under legislation governing the practice of certain professions some 45 years ago. These requirements changed over the years and were in particular incorporated into bill 22, the first recognition of French as the official language of Quebec. They are now part of the Charter of the French Language. For instance, as a general rule, in order to become a member of a profession, to join a profession, a person must have the appropriate knowledge of the French language to practice that profession.

There are many pitfalls along the path to that knowledge. I remember the language tests of the day when I worked as a lawyer for the Conseil de la langue française, and then for Alliance Québec. These are extremely delicate matters, and that is why I really like this very simple and direct choice which does not require anything further. It simple states that one must be able to understand the English and French languages without someone else interpreting them.

Others have pointed out the importance of being able to grasp subtleties, and very often judges need to grasp and work with certain complicated ideas and concepts. We are spoiled here in the House. We have world-class interpretation. We are indeed extremely lucky to be able to count on the remarkable contribution of these women and men who work so closely with us. I use that order because the women are by far the majority.

In terms of the law, it is not always the same. I was also responsible for the translation of Manitoba’s laws. I revised the translation of all of Manitoba’s laws and regulations after the Supreme Court ruled in 1985 that Manitoba had to repair a historic wrong and start translating all its laws. I mention this point in particular to illustrate the importance of the message. Today, again, Graham Fraser, the Commissioner of Official Languages, was talking about the urgent need to have bilingual judges on the Supreme Court. Apart from the reasons I just mentioned, that is to say, how important it is to understand the nuances and so forth, requiring these judges to be bilingual is a powerful symbol.

When someone is a member of a linguistic minority, whether an anglophone in Quebec or a francophone in the rest of Canada, how can he expect the people before whom he is appearing to be sensitive to his case when it is about language rights—basic rights in a society with two official languages—if they are feeling defensive because they do not speak both official languages?

If someone never took the trouble to learn the other language or never was encouraged to do so, will he have the necessary sensitivity to decide a case of this kind? When I say someone who never took the trouble, I do not mean to criticize. We should look at it the other way around. What an incentive it would be for young law students to go back to school in order to perfect their knowledge of French. They could choose to have an internship with a company or a judge in order to improve or polish their latent knowledge of French, which they had learned a little in high school or in French immersion but which they had never really worked on.

We have two legal systems in Canada. We are bijural, therefore, in addition to bilingual. The common law can be expressed as well in French as in English, as I just mentioned in the case of Manitoba. Quebec’s civil law has an English version which can be found in the Civil Code of Quebec. Both versions are equally authoritative, as has been determined, expressed and reinforced by the Official Languages Act and by decisions of the Supreme Court of Canada.

How can we continue with this anomaly? When people appear before any other court whose judges are appointed by the federal government, it is a constitutional right to have a judge who can listen to them, serve them and understand them in their own language.

There is only one exception. Do my colleagues know what it is? It is the Supreme Court. It is this incongruous exception that the hon. member for Acadie—Bathurst wants to correct with Bill C-232, and that is why it is so easy to support him in this effort.

Canada is lucky to have two legal systems and incredibly lucky to have two official languages. I think that many people will see the powerful signal we are sending today as a reason to go and acquire a knowledge of French that is appropriate to the exercise of one of the highest offices in our country, a judge on the Supreme Court of Canada.

I listened closely to the Liberal member who spoke earlier. I do hope that what he said reflects the official position of the Liberal Party of Canada. We will see when the time comes to vote. That said, despite all that the Conservatives have said to try and convince us that they have recognized linguistic duality as a reality in Canada, I think they will vote against this bill, even though it is exceptionally clear. We shall see.

Anyway, we in the NDP are not speaking from both sides of our mouths on that issue. We do not hesitate to say that, with the opportunities we are given in this country to learn both languages, anyone who knows that a particular job requires that he or she be bilingual, will be motivated to learn his or her second language. This year is the 40th anniversary of the passage of the Official Languages Act. Similarly, anyone who aspires to a senior role in government now has an incentive to learn the other official language. Nearly all senior positions require a knowledge of both official languages.

I had the opportunity to work in several provinces. I worked on the political scene for a long time in Quebec and Quebec City. When I came to Ottawa, I was quite shocked, not to say disappointed. I had always thought—it was naive of me, I realize it now—that official bilingualism existed and was alive in the federal public service. As it turns out, that bilingualism was largely an illusion.

In parliamentary committees, one must not try to get an answer in French, even from people who have had to prove their knowledge of French in order to obtain the job that brings them before the committee. There is still a big difference between the two sides. The francophones who appear before the committee and who fill important roles within the administration always try to respond in English—even though English might be their second language and they have learned it, but it still might be a little difficult for them—to a Conservative member who asks a question in English, for example. They make an effort, even though they are francophone and they are working hard at their English to be able to answer.

I am our finance critic on the Standing Committee on Finance. Government officials sometimes appear before our committee. We know they have had to demonstrate some knowledge of French in order to advance to their position. I am thinking of the person responsible for financial institutions who appeared last year. Although we were asking this woman questions in French, she stubbornly refused to answer in French. She consistently answered in English. That is very common, especially in the financial sector, and it is unfortunate. Clearly, the incentive that once existed is no longer working or it is no longer enough to make people want to retain the French they have learned.

If this bill passes, I think all the students embarking upon their legal studies at one of Canada's law faculties in September 2009 will always bear in mind that, in order to make it to the most important position a lawyer can aspire to, they must possess knowledge of languages. I am convinced that if these young, brilliant students have not already taken the time to learn French, or English as the case may be, they will find the time and the incentive to do so, since this will push them closer to that level of excellence, which includes, in a society with two official languages, the imperative need to know both official languages.

For that reason, and in closing, I wholeheartedly support my colleague's proposal. Furthermore, I would like to congratulate him for finding the right text and wording, a way to express it, that will win everyone over.

I hope this will translate into a vote of support by the Liberals. We have already obtained the support of the Bloc. We will watch the Conservatives closely.

[Brian Murphy, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Mr. Speaker, it is a great pleasure for me to rise on Bill C-232, which amends the Supreme Court Act. I am in favour of this bill not only because it was introduced by an hon. member from New Brunswick, where I come from, but also because I think official bilingualism is very important for New Brunswick and the entire country. Bill C-232 is intended to amend the Supreme Court Act in this direction.

Judges will be chosen from the people described in clause 1 and will have to understand French and English without the help of an interpreter. Canada’s francophones have a right to be served in their own language, especially in the courts and most especially in the Supreme Court. That is a basic right for all Canadians, regardless of whether they live in Quebec or in my riding of Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe.

Like many other francophones in Canada, the Acadians in my riding are not all bilingual by any means. They find it hard to express themselves and understand various expressions in English. We speak English or French depending on how we learned our mother tongue. I learned French on the rinks and in the schools of New Brunswick, and I married an Acadian woman. It is the language I support here.

The Supreme Court justices should be able to understand and speak French. Canada is a bilingual country and who better to set an example than the judges of the highest court in the land? I think that all members of Parliament should understand the importance of this bill and support it. Canada is a country that was built by the French and English. We should ensure, therefore, that everyone is served in the language of his or her choice, especially before the Supreme Court.

There are laws in this country guaranteeing linguistic rights. The first is section 16(1) of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, which says that “English and French are the official languages of Canada and have equality of status and equal rights and privileges...”. It is a matter of equality. This was not the situation in 1986 when the Supreme Court heard the case of the Société des Acadiens v. Association of Parents for Fairness in Education, and when the Supreme Court wrote that there was no equality right for French in this country. That was corrected, however, in the Supreme Court’s Beaulac decision. In addition, section 18 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms says “...both language versions [French and English] are equally authoritative”. This means there is equality under Canadian law.

In English, the Official Languages Act says that any journal, record, act of Parliament, et cetera, shall be made, enacted, printed, published and tabled simultaneously in both languages, and most importantly, both language versions are equally authoritative. This is the law of the country.

In the case of Société des Acadiens v. Association of Parents, it was not accepted that an accused had a right to translation when being presented with a criminal charge. As I mentioned, this was corrected by the decision in Beaulac, a 1999 Supreme Court decision, under the pen of then Mr. Justice Bastarache. It was decided to completely reject the law in the case of the Société des Acadiens and say that, “To the extent that Société des Acadiens stands for a restrictive interpretation of language rights, it is to be rejected”.

That has been the law of the country with respect to accused persons since 1999. There were two judges in that decision, the late Antonio Lamer and the current sitting member, Justice Binnie, who disagreed with the decision, but on the grounds that a criminal case should not be purported or extended to make constitutional law. Whether or not we agree with those justices is a matter of debate here.

That is the first and best reason why we should follow this bill. There is another reason though and it is the best evidence rule. This is a common law-created rule which suggests that from the 18th century forward, the best evidence is to be used. What does that mean? It means that the best the nature of the case will allow is the quote from the 1745 decision of the English courts.

What better evidence can there be before a judge of the highest appellate court in this country, who wants to interpret what is being said, other than to understand exactly what is being said? It goes to the very nature of advocacy before our highest court.

In a bit of a segue, we are talking about all nine judges of the Supreme Court being able to understand, not necessarily speak but understand, both languages. Imagine that if there were judges who came from the province of Quebec or parts of New Brunswick where there are only unilingual French-speaking candidates, imagine the shoe on the other foot, so to speak. If an English litigant hired the best lawyer he could find in Ottawa to make an argument at the appellate level on a very important case to that litigant, and the judges were divided four-four and it came down to one judge who could not understand English, there would be an outcry. The English litigant would say, “He is not listening to my argument. He is listening to the interpreter”.

We all admire our interpretation people in this Parliament and across the courts. It is a wonderful instrument, but the very nature of interpretation means that they are taking words and forming them in their own artistic belief as to what the speaker intends. That may work in solemnizing marriages. It may work in giving out change in an arcade, but it does not work at the highest level of advocacy in this country.

The advocates who are before the Supreme Court of Canada will tell us that 90% of the cases that are decided by the court are decided when a judge of the court asks them a question, and their response wins or loses the case for them. If that answer has to go through an artistic interpretation of what the advocate meant, justice is not being done.

There is an argument that maybe the best qualified individuals will not be chosen. That is like saying that eight of our nine Supreme Court justices right now are not the highest qualified judges in the country. I think they are.

The level of bilingualism in law schools all across this country has greatly improved over the years.

Many law faculties across this country teach common law in French and civil law in English, and the two marry quite well together.

Just a final word on the evils of translation. Translation is impossible. Interpretation is an art. An English language recording of a conversation may be put into evidence in court, but so will the transcript. That proves that in courts of law across this country, more evidence is better. Better understanding is the best evidence rule, and as I said at the beginning of my speech, all of that sensible, irrefutable, logical argument that we have to have the best evidence and the advocates have to be understood in the language they use is trumped in this case.

Canadian law reflects the equality of Canada’s two official languages, that is to say, English and French.

The House resumed from March 23 consideration of the motion that Bill C-232, an act to amend the Supreme Court Act (understanding the official languages), be read the second time and referred to a committee.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

Mr. Speaker, first off, the Bloc Québécois supports Bill C-232, an act to amend the Supreme Court Act (understanding the official languages). This bill was introduced by the hon. member for Acadie—Bathurst. It is the tip of the iceberg, as the federal government does not set an example in the matter of bilingualism in this country called Canada.

They want the federal public service to be bilingual so that it may serve people in their first language. The government currently wants to look into how universities could train students at the bachelor's, master's and doctoral levels to be able to speak English and French in order to create a pool of recruits to work in the federal public service. In itself, this is quite a good thing.

However, as regards this idea, which is currently under scrutiny by the Standing Committee on Official Languages, the issue is bigger. I call this issue “the Canadian disease”. In other words, the government wants a public service in which most of the employees are bilingual, while the judges of the Supreme Court of Canada are not required to be bilingual. This makes no sense. In Canada, there is no requirement for deputy ministers to be bilingual, but there is for their employees, the people who work for them and are part of the government machine. The deputy minister does not need to be bilingual. That makes no sense.

Canada's ambassadors are not required to be bilingual and they represent Canada, a country whose constitution provides that its two languages are on an equal footing. However, ambassadors, representing Canada abroad, are not required to be bilingual. That is cynicism. And it does not end there, because 37% of positions designated bilingual in the federal public service are filled by unilingual anglophones.

As you see, the problem is a complex one. This is the way to ignore the French fact. And this is how the Government of Canada acts toward the French fact. It explains why people like the Bloc members, all our members, are here in order to defend the French culture and language, the common, public culture and language of Quebec. In Canada, there is no respect for this language. Now you understand the whole issue of Quebec's independence, a fundamental element. Cynicism in Canada runs high.

I am sure you will agree with me, Mr. Speaker. I will show how the Conservative party has dealt with bilingualism, a concept it claims to support. In Canada, one language is more official than the other, and you will understand which one. Nearly 40 years after the passage of the Official Languages Act, it is still difficult to work in French in the federal system. When a manager is a unilingual anglophone, all the employees work in English. When 10 public servants—nine francophones and one anglophone—hold a meeting, the meeting is most often in English because, in all likelihood, the francophones are bilingual and the anglophone is not.

Worse yet, Ottawa continues not to consider bilingualism necessary for appointments to bilingual positions, as non-imperative staffing is still largely used, especially for senior positions. That is typical Canadian cynicism with respect to the French fact.

While the Conservative Party committed to support the Official Languages Act in its March 2005 policy statement and, again, in its latest election platform, ensuring that English and French have equality of status and equal rights and privileges as to their use in all institutions of the Parliament and Government of Canada, we have to recognize that, clearly, that statement is not being acted upon.

Following the cancellation of the court challenges program, the elimination of the interdepartmental partnership with the official-language communities, the appointment of a unilingual English-speaking judge, and the antics by members who show contempt by daring to call Quebeckers illiterate in their second language, even while French is losing ground, what is next? Think of the member for Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, who said that Quebeckers did not want to learn English, their second language, when data from Statistics Canada clearly show that Gatineau and Montreal rank first and third respectively in terms of bilingualism in Canada. I am from Hawkesbury, Ontario, a town located between Gatineau and Montreal, the second most bilingual city in the country. The people of Quebec are making efforts. Quebec is the province with the largest number of citizens who speak French and English. Yet, some Conservative members are making spiteful comments about the French fact and, in this case, the comments came from a francophone, which goes to show that being a member of the Conservative government does not help further the cause of the French fact in Quebec and Canada.

In May 2008, the Conservative members sitting on the official languages committee refused to support a motion on bilingualism for Supreme Court justices. If the Prime Minister is sincere in his commitments, let us hope he can rally his troops and show his support for linguistic minorities. We are living a horror story from the inside, and it is the Conservative Party that is responsible for this situation.

Considering that the bill seeks to make the understanding of French and English without the assistance of an interpreter a requirement for judges appointed to the Supreme Court; considering that the Official Languages Act provides that English and French have equality of status and use; considering that the French and English versions of federal acts have equal value and that one is not a translation of the other; considering that the right of any citizen to use French or English before Canada's courts is a fundamental linguistic right and that the Official Languages Act already recognizes the importance of being understood without the assistance of an interpreter before federal tribunals such as the Tax Court of Canada, the Federal Court and the Federal Court of Appeal; considering that simultaneous translation can create problems because it does not allow adequate reaction time to interrupt someone, to ask questions, whether for the justice, the lawyers or even the individuals subject to trial who have a right to be able to understand all the nuances and subtleties of each language, it goes without saying that the Bloc Québécois supports Bill C-232.

I will conclude by saying that the Quebec nation has dealt with this issue. On May 21, 2008, the members of the Quebec National Assembly unanimously passed the following motion: “That the National Assembly of Québec affirm that French language proficiency is a prerequisite and essential condition for the appointment of Supreme Court of Canada judges.”

We support this legislation. It is the tip of the iceberg. So much remains to be done in Canada. The federal institution does not respect the French fact. It is about time for it to begin to do so. We still have doubts about the Conservatives, but the Bloc Québécois supports the French language and it also supports this bill.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to speak on this important bill put forward by the hon. member for Acadie—Bathurst.

Last year, my colleague from Bourassa brought forward an identical bill. Unfortunately, it died on the order paper, following the Conservative government's decision to stop the business of the House by calling an early election which, I must say, was unwarranted.

I am pleased to see the hon. member for Acadie—Bathurst repeat this initiative, and I salute his work—let us move beyond partisanship for a moment—regarding the promotion and respect for our two official languages

I have been sitting with the member for Acadie—Bathurst for five years on the Standing Committee on Official Languages and I must admit that, when it comes to the issue of bilingualism and respect for our communities, we generally agree with each other. I also want to salute the extraordinary work done by my colleague from Madawaska—Restigouche to promote bilingualism and respect for francophone communities outside Quebec. We on this side of the House share a sensitivity which, unfortunately, is not found on the government side.

As for the bill as such, it amends the Supreme Court Act and introduces a new requirement for judges appointed to that court. It essentially provides that judges should understand French and English without the assistance of an interpreter. In other words, we are talking about having bilingual judges.

It seems to me that this only makes sense. It goes to the core of our commitment to official language communities. We are talking here about giving a meaning to all those nice principles to which we keep referring.

We are always hearing that it is important to promote both languages, that we must promote French and English, that we must support communities, but all this is mere rhetoric. We need concrete action. Today, the hon. member for Acadie—Bathurst is taking concrete action.

As we mentioned, this is a very simple bill asking that the justices appointed to the country's highest court understand both official languages. The idea is that when a case, any case, is before the court, it should be heard and understood without the need for an interpreter, whenever one of our country's two official languages is used.

As I said earlier, I have sat on the Standing Committee on Official Languages for several years. We have seen in our work that a great deal needs to be done to promote bilingualism and respect for both official languages.

For example, there is work to be done if we want the languages of our two founding peoples to be well represented in the federal public service. Efforts are being made to that end, but more needs to be done. We need to do more together.

For example, bilingualism must be a value that the whole government espouses. Canadians in all regions need to perceive that. They need to perceive the importance of bilingualism and see that it is not a cost or a constraint, but an extraordinary opportunity for everyone across the country. Everyone needs to understand that bilingualism is part of our identity, that it is fundamental to what Canada is and that it is part of our collective wealth as Canadians.

In light of this, I do not believe it is unreasonable to ask that judges of the Supreme Court of Canada be bilingual, given the level of responsibility they have as magistrates of the highest court in the land.

If we believe in bilingualism, if we believe in linguistic duality, we cannot allow such an exception. We cannot allow unilingualism in the Supreme Court, even though bilingualism may represent a constraint for some people.

I am convinced that in the long run, everyone will embrace the spirit of this bill, which is rooted in the will of those who came before us, the will to live in a society where the two official languages have the same legal status and are treated with the same respect and importance.

Bill C-232, which my colleague introduced, clearly states that:

—any person referred to in subsection (1) may be appointed a judge who understands French and English without the assistance of an interpreter.

As has already been said, the bill is straightforward and easy to support. The opposition parties will support it, and they will not be alone. Other stakeholders such as the French-language jurists' associations, the Canadian Bar Association, the National Assembly of Quebec and the Commissioner of Official Languages, Graham Fraser, have all come out in favour of bilingualism of Supreme Court judges. In addition, the Fédération des communautés francophones et acadienne du Canada has for many years been asking that bilingualism be a criterion for selecting judges.

Because I am feeling generous, I will point out that the appointment of Nova Scotian Thomas Cromwell to the Supreme Court of Canada is good news in terms of bilingualism. As we all know, Justice Cromwell took over the seat vacated by retired Justice Michel Bastarache. Justice Cromwell is bilingual, and that is a step in the right direction, but we need more. We need to take many steps in that direction, but sadly, the Conservative government cannot be counted on to make that happen. Let us not forget that it was this same government that eliminated the court challenges program and has put off investing in linguistic duality and respect for official languages.

Recently, Radio-Canada said that Justice Marshall Rothstein, the Prime Minister's first Supreme Court appointee two years ago and a unilingual anglophone, has hindered the work of the highest court in the land:

This forces francophone justices to write their drafts in English so that translation does not slow down the process. Unilingualism can also be a problem when a case is to be heard in French.

This cannot happen every time a judge is appointed. We must have some guidelines. We must be able to guide the government's selection of the judges appointed to this country's highest court, which, we might add, is often called upon to rule on cases dealing directly with linguistic duality and respect for Canada's two official languages.

We must send a clear message to Canada's official language minority communities. They struggle every day to preserve their language and culture, and all too often, those communities have been forced to stand up to Conservative governments that are unsympathetic to their situation and their needs.

Examples of this include the near closure of Montfort Hospital in Ontario and the elimination of the court challenges program, which in fact allowed Franco-Ontarians to fight and eventually win their battle, thereby keeping Montfort Hospital open.

Having bilingual Supreme Court judges is not an end in itself, but it would send a clear message that we are serious about the importance of respecting linguistic duality. As I said, it is not an end in itself. We must do more, much more.

For instance, there must be long-term, recurring and predictable investments, so that our organizations can plan for the years to come. Investments must be made in early childhood programs in order to allow our young people to begin the learning process in their first language. We must build capacity within our communities and invest in local culture.

In other words, we must support our official language minority communities. We must be there for them, listen to, hear and understand them, and work with them so they may develop and thrive. All of Canada and all Canadians will come out stronger.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Lévis—Bellechasse, QC]

Mr. Speaker, it is my pleasure to rise today on second reading of Bill C-232, an act to amend the Supreme Court Act (understanding the official languages), introduced by the hon. member for Acadie—Bathurst. He is also one of the vice-chairs of the Standing Committee on Official Languages. He works hard on the committee to advance both the rights of minority communities and Canada’s linguistic duality. This bill to amend the Supreme Court Act would introduce a requirement for judges appointed to the Supreme Court to understand English and French without the assistance of an interpreter.

The English and French languages have shaped Canadian society from its very beginnings. First of all, we had the aboriginal languages and then the languages of the various cultural communities that have joined us. English and French are basic to our identity as Canadians and are at the heart of who we are.

The Government of Canada knows how important it is to support the development of the official language minority communities. In June 2008, it announced the Roadmap for Canada’s Linguistic Duality 2008-2013. This is a five-year, government-wide plan with a $1.1 billion budget. It is based on two pillars: participation in linguistic duality and support for the official language minority communities in such priority areas as health, justice, immigration, economic development and arts and culture.

I want to emphasize from the outset our government’s determination to enhance the vitality of the English and French linguistic minority communities in Canada and fully support the recognition and use of both official languages in Canada. That is what today’s bill is all about.

Canada can be very proud of its legal system—just think of all the countries that have used it as a model—and of the steps we have taken to provide legal proceedings in either official language. It is important to remember that the Supreme Court of Canada is a model of institutional bilingualism. It fulfils the will of Parliament that our national institutions should be bilingual without requiring every individual to be bilingual.

The government is committed to preserving a fair, unbiased legal system. It does this by adhering to the important principles of merit and legal excellence in the selection and appointment of judges to the superior courts of the provinces, the federal courts and the Supreme Court.

The government has appointed more than 200 judges so far to various Canadian courts. These judges and lawyers are highly competent. Their appointments embody the principles of merit and legal excellence, which will continue to guide the government’s decisions in the appointment of judges.

Merit and legal excellence are at the heart of the process for appointing judges. The other criteria are knowledge of the law, judgment, work habits, ability to write and communicate, honesty, integrity, a concern for fairness and a social conscience. Bilingualism is at the heart of these factors.

The government can take the linguistic abilities of the various candidates into account and ensure that all Canadians can access the legal system in either official language. We are determined to build a federal legal system that provides equal access to justice in both official languages.

I would also like to point out that before appointing anyone, the government consults the chief justice of the court in question to determine the court's needs, including language skills. The chief justice is in an excellent position to understand the needs of the communities being served and to identify specific needs when positions become available. We are also open to receiving advice from groups and individuals about factors to consider when filling vacancies.

In order to develop as large a pool of bilingual candidates as possible, the government calls on French-speaking lawyers' associations and francophone communities to identify individuals who have the necessary skills to be judges and to encourage such individuals to apply for positions.

The government is committed to appointing the best-qualified individuals. It will continue to appoint competent, dedicated people and to comply with principles of gender equality and cultural and linguistic diversity.

The Supreme Court of Canada plays a fundamental role in our society as the ultimate guardian of the values enshrined in the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. As such, its members must be selected from among our most distinguished and competent jurists. That is why, when the time comes to appoint a judge, we take great care to choose the best people in terms of knowledge, experience, and personal dedication to excellence.

One could not ask for better Supreme Court justices than those appointed over the past 130 years. Judges must have numerous qualities, including a strong intellect, a superior ability to draft documents, innovative ideas when it comes to new legal issues, and great sensitivity to the values laid down in the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

Constitutionalist Peter Hogg described the personal and professional qualities of a justice of the Supreme Court of Canada as follows:

1. He must be able to resolve difficult legal issues, not just by virtue of technical legal skills, but also with wisdom, fairness and compassion.

2. He must have the energy and discipline to diligently study the materials that are filed in every appeal.

3. He must be able to maintain an open mind on every appeal until he has read all the pertinent material and heard from counsel on both sides.

4. He must always treat the counsel and the litigants who appear before him with patience and courtesy.

5. He must be able to write opinions that are well written and well reasoned.

6. He must be able to work cooperatively with his eight colleagues to help produce agreement on unanimous or majority decisions, and to do his share of the writing.

The composition of the court, including the number of judges, is governed by the Supreme Court Act, which states that at least three of the judges must be from Quebec. Recognition of Quebec's civil law tradition requires representation of Quebec judges on the court to reflect Canada's bijural nature.

Furthermore, the Supreme Court has always reflected the fact that Canada is comprised of regions and the current practice is based, in accordance with legislation and tradition, on the recognition of legal pluralism, another of our nation's fundamental characteristics, and on regional diversity in the appointment process.

I would like to continue but my time is almost up. I would simply add that the composition of the Supreme Court provides this regional representation given that it includes three judges from Ontario, one judge from the Atlantic region, one from the Prairies and one from British Columbia.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

moved that Bill C-232, An Act to amend the Supreme Court Act (understanding the official languages), be read the second time and referred to a committee.

Mr. Speaker, I would like to begin by thanking the hon. member for Skeena—Bulkley Valley for supporting my bill.

The government has been refusing for far too long to establish an appointment criteria based on language proficiency for Supreme Court judges, thereby interfering in an alarming way with individual rights.

The consequences have been human rights violations which Canada cannot tolerate.

I am confident, however, that change is on the way because in 2009, year of the 40th anniversary of the Official Languages Act, Canadians have decided to join forces and take action.

In an unprecedented move, francophones and anglophones from all backgrounds are coming together to support my bill, Bill C-232, to introduce a new requirement for judges appointed to the Supreme Court to understand English and French without the assistance of an interpreter. This requirement will not apply to currently sitting judges.

We share the same goal: to restore a fundamental right of all Canadians, that is, the right to a fair and equitable trial.

Allow me to outline the context. As the hon. members probably know, the statutes of Canada are not written in one official language, then translated into the other. They are drafted bilingually, neither language taking precedence over the other. Both versions are equal in law. Canadian law is written in two inextricably interlinked languages.

The Official Languages Act and the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms ensure that the historical progress achieved in this regard is preserved.

To understand the subtleties of the law and apply it integrally, one must, at the very least, understand both official languages. One must also be able to listen to the parties without the help of an interpreter to ensure that all rulings are completely impartial and objective. Otherwise, the outcome could be very detrimental to the parties.

To ensure that our rights are protected, Supreme Court justices must understand the law as written in both English and French. Simultaneous interpretation and translation are not good enough: they result in interpretations that often differ from the original meaning.

More and more Canadians agree that a judge on the bench of our country's highest court must not be partial or restricted to knowing only half of the law because he or she knows only one of the official languages.

Members of Parliament and Canadian citizens may one day find themselves before the Supreme Court of Canada. Some may find themselves living with the consequences of its rulings.

How would it feel to be the victim of injustice simply because one was not well understood?

What would happen if a judge could not get clarification as needed because of delays due to translation or interpretation?

What would happen if judges were to discuss the fate of individuals in a place not equipped with translation or interpretation services?

What might the consequences be?

As the Commissioner of Official Languages put it so well, “it's not through interpretation that we're necessarily going to understand all the aspects of the debate prior to a case being brought before the Supreme Court”.

The government must therefore pay closer attention to judges' skills. Certainly, all judges must have a good knowledge of the law, but language skills are just as important.

The Commissioner of Official Languages, Graham Fraser, stated the following:

—it seems to me that knowledge of both official languages should be one of the qualifications sought for judges of Canada’s highest court. Setting such a standard would prove to all Canadians that the Government of Canada is committed to linguistic duality. I find it essential that an institution as important as the Supreme Court of Canada not only be composed of judges with exceptional legal skills, but also reflect our values and our Canadian identity as a bijural and bilingual country.

On a related note, according to the Official Languages Act, every federal court has the duty to ensure that the language chosen by the parties is understood by the judge or other officer who hears those proceedings, without the assistance of an interpreter. The only exception to that rule? The Supreme Court.

It is not fair that the law applies to federal courts such as the Federal Court of Canada, the Federal Court of Appeal and the Tax Court of Canada, but not to the Supreme Court of Canada. Why the exception? The law should be the same for everyone. Consider this example. Judges have been appointed, even though they are not bilingual, to the Federal Court of Canada, the Federal Court of Appeal and the Tax Court of Canada. Everyone can have their trial in the official language of their choice, and the judge must be bilingual. The Tax Court of Canada has more than one judge, but only one judge is needed for the hearing. At the Supreme Court of Canada, however, certain cases require all nine judges. Those nine judges should therefore be able to understand the arguments in the client's language of choice.

The Supreme Court ruling handed down on February 5, 2009, in the Caldech case reminded the federal government of its constitutional duty to provide the public with services of equal quality in both official languages.

As the commissioner explained, this is an important principle that clarifies the scope of the Official Languages Act.

This ruling establishes that a broad view must be adopted when looking at equality, and that the government must consider the nature and purpose of the service in question when defining its linguistic obligations.

In Canada, French enjoys equality of status and use with English. No litigant, whether francophone or anglophone, should therefore be heard through interpretation or other measures before Canada's highest court.

Let us recognize the importance of making ourselves understood without interpreters or other interventions.

The Fédération des associations de juristes d'expression française de common law or FAJEF is of the opinion that the current method of appointing federal court judges, including Supreme Court judges, does not pay enough attention to language rights. According to the FAJEF, the fact that there is no mechanism for assessing candidates' language proficiency is evidence that it is not considered an important requirement when judges are appointed.

The right to use a language in court also includes the right to be understood directly in that language. What good is it to have the right to use your own language if the people you are speaking to cannot understand it? Each party must be able to be heard in conditions that do not put him or her at a disadvantage compared to the opposing party. That is the purpose of my bill.

To ensure that the Supreme Court makes fully informed decisions and that Canadians have the right to fair, equitable trials, I invite you to support my bill, Bill C-232. No one wants a misinformed judge to determine his or her future.

Make history by joining me and the following organizations, as well as all Canadians who have come out in favour of such a measure: the Canadian Bar Association, the Association des juristes d'expression française du Canada, the Young Bar Association of Montreal, the Fédération des communautés francophones et acadienne du Canada, the Quebec Community Groups Network, the Commissioner of Official Languages, the Fédération franco-ténoise, the Fédération acadienne de la Nouvelle-Écosse, the Société nationale de l'Acadie, the Société de l'Acadie du Nouveau-Brunswick, the National Assembly of Quebec, the Premier of Quebec and the Bloc Québécois, which wrote me to say it will support this bill. I certainly appreciate that gesture.

Without radically changing the current system, my bill will, in the long run, prevent appointments that go against the spirit of the law and the charter. In this way, we will more effectively honour language communities' rights, promote their equality and enhance their vitality.

I am also asking Parliament, the Liberal Party and the Conservative Party to truly ensure that people's language rights are respected. For example, when the Supreme Court was established—or any other court or institution for that matter—it was created for citizens, for Canadians as well as for Quebeckers. The court was not set up to pit citizens against judges, it was set up to serve citizens. The service provided to citizens really should be in their own language.

I have a great deal of respect for our interpreters and the great work they do for us. I wish to thank them for it. However, the Supreme Court of Canada is the court of last resort, where judges will hand down a ruling that could impact our lives, that could change them forever. So, just imagine if the judge did not fully understand the arguments.

Mr. Michel Doucet, a lawyer, of the University of Moncton said:

When you win a case by a nine to zero decision, that's far from being a dramatic situation, but when you lose a case in a five to four decision, as happened to me at one point, and you've pleaded that case in French, you then go home and listen to the English interpretation that was made of your argument before the court in which three judges didn't understand French. As the judges had to listen to the argument through the English interpretation on CPAC, you wonder about what they understood.

Just imagine, that is what a lawyer had to say about his arguments. He also said:

I listened to the English interpretation of my argument, and I understood none of it.

This is what he said before the Standing Committee on Official Languages, here in Ottawa. Michel Doucet added:

I have a lot of respect for the interpreters and the work they have to do. It must be quite complicated to do it in a political context; I can imagine what it must be in a judicial context, where every word counts—

When I was a union representative, a lawyer taught me how to conduct myself during arbitration arguments.

Sometimes, it is all about how you present yourself to the judge or the arbitrator and whether you can make an impression on them. However, how can you do that when you are presenting arguments about a law if he does not understand?

In Canada, in this country, there has been sufficient reflection about this.

In our country now, people have come to understand that if we are going to have two official languages and if the law is written in English or in French, not interpreted, how could we accept that after going to court the interpretation may come from someone else on the same law that we do not accept in the House of Commons?

I will repeat this part because it is important. The law is written in French and in English. This Parliament has decided that legislation would not be translated. It is drafted in both official languages. At the Supreme Court of Canada, interpreters can translate legislation for a judge, but this is not permitted in Parliament. Supreme Court judges have the fundamental responsibility of enforcing and interpreting the law. If the law is written in French as well as in English, I think that the judge does not have a choice. He has to be able to understand it in both official languages. That is what is requested, and it is important.

The language that we speak does not matter. When a lawyer makes representations before the judge, with all due respect, the interpreter can make mistakes because the lawyer is like the member for Acadie—Bathurst and speaks so fast at times that the interpreter does not have enough time to translate everything he says. How many times have I risen in the House to make a speech and had interpreters comment that I gave them a hard time? Imagine now the judge who is trying to understand a lawyer making a presentation.

For these reasons, I am requesting the support of the House of Commons so that, finally, the next judges appointed to the Supreme Court, the highest court of the land, will understand both official languages. That is really important. I will count on the understanding of my hon. colleagues, where this matter is concerned, on behalf of all Canadians. The court is there for the citizens, not the judges.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

moved for leave to introduce Bill C-232, An Act to amend the Supreme Court Act (understanding the official languages).

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank the seconder for this bill, the member for Nickel Belt. This bill would amend the Supreme Court Act (understanding the official languages). Canada has two official languages. To ensure the equality of both official languages, the bill amends the Supreme Court Act and introduces a new requirement for judges appointed to the Supreme Court to understand English and French without the assistance of an interpreter.

(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and printed)