Bill S-205 (Historical)

An Act to amend the Criminal Code (suicide bombings)

Criminal Code

[Paul Szabo, Liberal, Mississauga South, ON]

Three times.

[Tom Lukiwski, Conservative, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

I stand corrected by the hon. member.

I believe one of the main reasons that he has won those awards is because he stands in this place at almost every opportunity when a piece of legislation or a private member's bill comes in and speaks to it. He obviously thinks it is important to stand, from his own perspective, but yet he admonishes and criticizes others who would do the same thing.

He references the fact that his Liberal colleague, Senator Grafstein, is looking at this piece of legislation as perhaps his legacy as he works his way to retirement, which I understand is going to occur in just a few months. We wish the good senator well in his retirement and hope that he is able to find something to occupy his time as actively as his senatorial duties have over the past number of years. Nonetheless, with all due respect to the senator, there are members in the House who want the opportunity to speak, not only on this bill but other bills.

If we were to take the advice of the hon. member for Mississauga South and collapse this debate, I would suggest that may set a very poor precedent. I would not say a dangerous precedent but a very poor one, for other members, particularly rookie members who come into the chamber on nights like this prepared to speak, sometimes giving their maiden speech, sometimes giving a speech because they want to overcome a fear of nervousness or the ability to articulate, or to speak extemporaneously for a number of reasons.

Members of Parliaments come in here day after day, evening after evening wishing to speak to a particular piece of legislation. Yet, this member, an experienced member of Parliament, stands and dares criticize members not only on this side of the House but I dare say he criticizes members from all sides of the House when he says we should let this debate collapse.

I do not think that is appropriate. Even though the admonishment may have been in what he considers to be in the best interests of this bill and the senator, I do not believe it is appropriate.

I hope the member for Mississauga South reconsiders his remarks the next time he stands on his feet to speak to a bill that perhaps has been close to exhaustion in terms of the words spoken, the rhetoric and the points made. I have made my point and I hope my hon. colleague from Mississauga South gives it very careful consideration before he utters such an admonishment in the future.

Let me speak briefly about the bill itself.

[Paul Szabo, Liberal, Mississauga South, ON]

Hear, hear!

[Tom Lukiwski, Conservative, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

I thank the hon. member for Mississauga South for his encouragement. Finally, it appears that he has changed his mind. He has encouraged me to actually speak to the bill and I thank him for that. I think that is a very positive sign. It speaks to the level of conviviality and the level of co-operation we are now starting to see occur in the House.

I should also add before I go on to my remarks about this particular bill that the member for Mississauga South seemed to question the motivation of members wanting to get up on their feet and speak to the bill. I would suggest simply this. Now that the official opposition, the Liberal Party of Canada, has backed down from its threat to force an unwanted and unnecessary election, there is more opportunity for that level of co-operation among all members, and I welcome that.

I think Canadians welcome that. I would merely say that if the member for Mississauga South was one of the members behind that decision to step back, to reverse themselves from that terrible decision of a few weeks ago, when the Leader of the Opposition said to the Prime Minister that his time was up, and that he would oppose this government and attempt to bring this government down at every opportunity. So, I congratulate that member--

[The Acting Speaker, Conservative, Barry Devolin]

Order, please. The hon. member for Mississauga South is rising on a point of order.

[Paul Szabo, Liberal, Mississauga South, ON]

Mr. Speaker, the member has been given a lot of latitude, but he is well aware of relevance to the matter before us. His time is almost up. I would certainly indicate that the only reason this is happening is that the Conservatives have decided to put up three more speakers and talk it out anyway. Therefore, they have not good faith whatsoever on this bill.

[The Acting Speaker, Conservative, Barry Devolin]

I would encourage all members of the House to remember that there is an item before us and that all remarks ought to be relevant to that item. The hon. parliamentary secretary to the House leader.

[Tom Lukiwski, Conservative, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

Mr. Speaker, I thank my hon. colleague from Mississauga South for his intervention.

I would point out, however, that for the first several minutes of his speech, he did not speak to this bill whatsoever and there was a previous point of order to that effect.

Therefore, I respect your ruling, Mr. Speaker, and I will go directly to the substance of the bill.

One of the reasons that I support the bill is that Canada would actually become the first country that I know of to actually entrench such a bill into law. Many people would ask: What is the purpose behind the bill because it does not really mean anything? Is it more symbolic than anything concrete?

I suppose one could argue that yes, that is quite conceivable because the bill basically, just with more certainty, speaks to the fact that anyone who either attempts a suicide bombing or is even successful should be considered a terrorist and that act an act of terrorism.

One would say obviously that is an act of terrorism. Suicide bombings occur for a reason and that is because a terrorist, usually a terrorist cell, wants to create anarchy, fear and confusion in the civilized world and by the use of suicide bombings is able to create that level of uncertainty and fear. They are designed for that type of action and reaction.

Currently, if a suicide bomber has been apprehended before he or she is able to complete the act, that person quite conceivably would be charged with attempting an act of terrorism, but the bill gives more certainty to that. I think from a symbolic standpoint it is extremely important because it allows our country to be the first country in the civilized world to say that we will not stand by and allow this type of action to take place without swift and severe retribution.

The one thing that the bill also does, which I appreciate quite sincerely, is that it would allow posthumously, after a suicide bomber has completed the act, to go after the sponsors of that act for some form of restitution or retribution. Currently, that does not exist.

Therefore, I think the bill has important elements in it. It sends a very strong message to the rest of the free world, the democratic world, that this type of action, suicide bombings that are unfortunately so prevalent in the world today, should not be tolerated at any time and at any level.

I know that I will certainly be supporting the bill. I encourage all of my colleagues to support it as well. With due respect to the good senator, I am firmly convinced that this bill will eventually pass.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Industry]

Mr. Speaker, I, too, want to add my voice to those who have commended this bill today. It sounds like this bill has all party support, which is a rare thing in this place.

I note that there are several prominent former politicians in this country who have also supported this bill. An online petition has been written to encourage senators and parliamentarians to support this bill, a petition that was originated by the group Canadians Against Suicide Bombing.

Before I name some of the folks who have actually supported this bill, because I think it is important to underline the cross party support for this bill, I will read a little bit from the petition that was online. The petition reads:

Suicide bombing has become all too common in many countries throughout the world. Thousands of civilians are killed and maimed to advance a cause based on falsely implanted expectations of glory and martyrdom. We say no cause can justify suicide bombing.

Introduced by Senator Jerry Grafstein, Bill S-210 aims beyond those who strap explosives to their bodies and aim to cause maximum pain, suffering, death and dismemberment. It will help focus on those who promote terrorism by teaching, organizing and financing the killers in the name of ill-conceived ideology, distorted belief or abhorrent political conviction. It will help pursue the individuals promoting this heinous tactic. Penal statutes must unambiguously state which actions are criminalized. Rather than assuming that suicide bombing is covered implicitly in the Criminal Code, this amendment covers it explicitly.

I think that is the important thing here. The previous speaker talked a little bit about the symbolic nature of the bill. Some may look at this bill as a rather short bill with not many words in it and they may question why it is needed, but there is a symbolic importance to this bill that is recognized by commentators, political people, among others who have commented on the need for this bill.

Some of the people who have signed that petition, which I just read, some prominent Canadians and politicians of all stripes, are: the hon. Ed Broadbent, for example, a former NDP leader; and the right hon. Kim Campbell, former prime minister and attorney general. We can see that the right hon. Joe Clark has also signed the petition.

Going down the list in terms of the politicians who have signed, we see even the current Minister of State of Foreign Affairs signed a petition for the bill that preceded this back when he was working in television and media. We see that the hon. Ralph Klein, my former premier in Alberta, is one of the signatories to this bill. The hon. Flora MacDonald, a previous cabinet minister in this country, and Preston Manning, the former Reform leader, have also signed the petition.

We can see that there are a significant number of prominent politicians. Even the current Liberal member for Toronto Centre was a signatory to this petition.

[The Acting Speaker, Conservative, Barry Devolin]

The time provided for consideration of private members' business has now expired and the order is dropped to the bottom of the order of precedence on the order paper.

This member will have six minutes remaining when the House returns to this matter.

The House resumed from October 22 consideration of the motion that Bill S-205, An Act to amend the Criminal Code (suicide bombings), be read the second time and referred to a committee.

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to take part in the debate on Bill S-205. Since this is a bill that starts with “S”, it means that it began in the Senate and has arrived in this place. It was introduced in the Senate by a Liberal senator. He can be very proud of his work in the field this bill deals with, which is terrorism and justice.

Senator Grafstein introduced this bill in the other place. I understand that he will be retiring in December. I think he will be recognized for this legislation, for all the great work he has done over years and for his service to Canada. Senator Grafstein is well known by all members of this House.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

A very good member.

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Mr. Speaker, he is a very good member, as my colleague, the Minister of Transport said. I am sure the senator would appreciate that.

Senator Grafstein is also well known in this House for the fact that over the years he has worked very hard to maintain strong relations with our neighbour to the south, our strongest and greatest trading partner, the United States. Not only has he done that, but he has also advocated very strongly and vehemently over the years on behalf of Canada with his many colleagues and friends in the American Congress and Senate. He has very good contacts there and has advocated on Canada's behalf. He has tried to influence things positively and has often done so over the years.

For instance, he pointed out to our American friends that when 9/11 occurred, none of the terrorists who took part in those actions came from Canada. This is an important point that some of our American friends unfortunately did not understand at the time.

Since they are supporting this legislation, it is clear that the NDP, the Bloc and even the Conservatives share that sentiment and recognize the value of our senators and their contributions. It is a positive sign. The fact is all parties in this House have shown their support for Bill S-205 which passed the Senate on June 10 of this year.

The Senate adopted the bill to ensure greater clarity in relation to particular measures. The Liberal Party fully supports this initiative and we support this bill. Of course, it being a private member's bill, these matters are free votes for our party, but I can say confidently that my colleagues will be supporting it.

It is a very short bill. It essentially has one key paragraph that I would like to read:

Section 83.01 of the Criminal Code is amended by adding the following after subsection (1.1):

(1.2) For greater certainty, a suicide bombing comes within paragraphs (a) and (b) of the definition "terrorist activity" in subsection (1).

Canadians probably believe that suicide bombings are already illegal under our Criminal Code, and they are right. Someone listening may ask how we would penalize a suicide bomber. If the person is successful, obviously there is no penalty that can be applied. However, suicide bombers are not always successful. What we are talking about, in part, is someone who attempts to commit a suicide bombing, or perhaps people who might try to assist or prepare that person for that event, to supply the person with materials for example. These are all relevant parts of that activity.

It is simple common sense that a suicide bombing would be considered a terrorist activity. I had a look at the definition in section 83.01 of the Criminal Code, and it is a fairly long and complicated definition of what terrorist activity is. I think it is reasonably clear, but it would not hurt at all and it is probably wise to make this absolute clarification for greater certainty.

I endorse what Senator Grafstein has done in this regard. It is no wonder that all parties in the House are supporting this bill.

My understanding is that we will be the first country in the world to take this step to clarify this matter, and it is a positive step. I look forward to the bill going to the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights and to its eventual passage.

Suicide bombings are horrendous, terrible acts. Who can forget watching the television on the morning of September 11, 2001?

I remember sitting in my office in Nova Scotia. The night before, I had been at a reception at what we call the World Trade and Convention Centre in Halifax. My assistant came into the room and said, “Turn on the TV. I just got a call saying that a plane has flown into the World Trade Center”. I thought my assistant meant the one in Halifax. That was my first reaction since I had just been there the night before and had it in my mind. I turned the TV on and saw that it was not that at all, that it was the World Trade Center. Moments later, maybe a minute or two after turning on the television, I saw the second plane fly into the other tower.

With the first plane I thought maybe it was an accident, that it was possible there was some bizarre situation with the pilot, a mechanical problem, a problem with navigation and somehow the plane ended up flying into the building. But with the second one, everyone knew. It did not take long to dawn on me that there was only one possible explanation, the horrible explanation that it was, and we all saw the terrible result. Even while watching the flames it did not occur to me; maybe there were structural engineers watching who recognized what would happen next, but I do not think most of us could imagine that those buildings would collapse in the horrible way they did with the tremendous loss of life that resulted.

That type of activity has never happened here. We have been fortunate in Canada. We have been spared that sort of terrorist attack, which was a successful attack certainly, but we have seen the devastation that it has caused abroad. Thousands of innocent people have died and even more have been injured.

This is truly a despicable act and we must recognize that. I hope we never experience it here, but we must recognize that there is the danger of experiencing it here. It clearly is a distorted action of depraved and distorted minds, people who are misguided and who perhaps have been brainwashed in various ways.

Let us think about the number of suicide bombings that have been carried out around the globe in the last number of years. We were all shocked by 9/11, as I mentioned. We remember the one in Madrid, which was not that long ago. In 2007 there were the London subway attacks. In 2008 there were the attacks in Mumbai, which are being recognized this week with the Prime Minister's visit there.

This bill serves to illustrate the fact that suicide bombings happen elsewhere, that they are horrible and that they could, sadly, happen here. The statistics are shocking. From 2000 to 2004, 472 known suicide bombings took place in 22 different countries. Wow. They resulted in more than 7,000 people killed and tens of thousands wounded, the horror of those actions on innocent people.

Going beyond this bill, we need to address the root causes of terrorism. I am not saying we could ever eradicate all people who might commit a terrorist act, but it is important that we work for peace to flourish, that we work to reduce the possibility, that we work to remove the fertile ground on which terror may flourish. We need to ask why it happens and what we can do to stop it.

The changes to the Criminal Code with this bill help set the stage for that kind of discussion. Senator Grafstein has done a tremendous service with this bill, as he has so often done throughout his career. It is appropriate to acknowledge his hard work for initiating this bill many years ago. It has been a while getting to this point. Because of his commitment, we are able to send a clear message to the world that this country stands firmly against terrorism.

Let me conclude with a quote from Senator Grafstein. He said in February:

Suicide bombing has become an all too frequent practice in many countries throughout the world. Thousands of civilians are killed and maimed to advance a cause based on falsely implanted expectations of glory and martyrdom. We say no cause can justify suicide bombing.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I rise, as I think everybody else has so far, to support this bill. The bill, and I have said this to my caucus, in its technical basis may not be necessary. In fact, one could argue strongly is it not necessary. However, that is not the reason we would support it. We support it because of the message it would send. I think that is clear from, again, some of the speeches I have heard from all parties, that we understand this.

In that regard, to be a bit technical, this is an amendment to a section of the Criminal Code that is part of the anti-terrorism sections in the code. There is a specific provision now in the code that speaks of violent acts as being a terrorist activity, depending on what the intent is of the conduct. We are amending that to say suicide bombing would be a specific example of this type of violence. Again, as a lawyer, it is probably not necessary to do this.

However, in terms of the role we also play in this legislature, and in any democratically-elected legislature, we also have to provide leadership and examples to the country. Part of that leadership and the examples we provide are on those occasions when we need to speak a strong voice of denunciation, and we must do that. This is one of those times it is necessary to do that.

One could argue that there are all sorts of other times where we may do it and not have any particular impact and so we probably should not. However, in this case the message we would send to our citizenry and to rest of the world is this is a particularly abhorrent type of murder, one that has become, unfortunately, for the peace and safety of the world, all too common.

In preparation for this, I did some background reading. One could argue that this type of murder, this type of violent, abhorrent criminal activity, is a fairly new concept, and there is a great deal of truth to that. I think most observers internationally recognize that the first modern suicide bomber came out of the conflict in Sri Lanka, in the late 1960s through to the mid-1970s, and was used very often, again, unfortunately for the peace and safety of the citizenry of that country.

Unfortunately, it also provided a message to other terrorist groups and groups bent on the use of violence to achieve their ends, a methodology that could be used, and it has spread to any number of countries in the world. Our response to that must be this act of denunciation on our part, to simply say this is not acceptable.

Again, there are strong arguments that we can go back and look at the use of people committing a criminal act, killing other people and, at the same time, taking their own lives. It existed long before the incidents in Sri Lanka made this so prominent a tool for those who had a significant absence of sanity in their conduct.

It is impossible to imagine anyone encouraging other people to strap explosives to their bodies, conceal them on their bodies, move into a highly travelled area where there are a number of other human beings and set off those explosives, taking their own lives and those of any number of innocent bystanders. It is the act of someone who is insane.

I do not have any doubt in my mind that by supporting and passing the bill, it will change the minds of those people who are that lacking in mental health. However, there is a broader audience to which we need to speak, the audience of those individuals who would consider doing this and allow themselves to be talked into it. They need to hear that democratic societies do not function on the basis of force and violence. We need to repudiate that at every opportunity.

Since we are being given that in this case, it is appropriate and very important that the House as a whole, when this comes up for a vote, which I believe will be tomorrow evening, give this unanimous support. I know it simply means it will go to committee and we will study it more there. I cannot imagine there will be any amendments. It will then come back here and, again, it is extremely important that it receives unanimous support for the purposes of expressing denunciation and sending this very clear message. If one is going to consider using violence to achieve one's ends, whether they be political, religious or any number of other ideological goals, a particular violence that is as abhorrent as this is, we are going to denounce that as the representatives of our country, both to our citizenry and to the rest of the world.