Bill C-35 (Historical)

An Act to amend the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act

This enactment amends the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act to change the manner of regulating third parties in immigration processes. Among other things it
(a) creates a new offence by extending the prohibition against representing or advising persons for consideration — or offering to do so — to all stages in connection with a proceeding or application under that Act, including before a proceeding has been commenced or an application has been made, and provides for penalties in case of contravention;
(b) exempts from the prohibition
(i) members of a provincial law society or notaries of the Chambre des notaires du Québec, and students-at-law acting under their supervision,
(ii) any other members of a provincial law society or the Chambre des notaires du Québec, including a paralegal,
(iii) members of a body designated by the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration, and
(iv) entities, and persons acting on the entities’ behalf, acting in accordance with an agreement or arrangement with Her Majesty in right of Canada;
(c) extends the time for instituting certain proceedings by way of summary conviction from six months to 10 years;
(d) gives the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration the power to make transitional regulations in relation to the designation or revocation by the Minister of a body;
(e) provides for oversight by that Minister of a designated body through regulations requiring the body to provide information to allow the Minister to determine whether it governs its members in the public interest; and
(f) facilitates information sharing with regulatory bodies regarding the professional and ethical conduct of their members.

Cracking Down on Crooked Consultants Act

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

Mr. Speaker, crimes against immigrants cannot and should not be tolerated. For far too long, we have been soft on those who prey on the most vulnerable, prey on those who have dreams to make Canada their home. The media is littered with stories of potential immigrants who pay some consultants thousands of dollars, sometimes tens of thousands of dollars, and are taught to lie and end up having their applications destroyed because they were given poor advice. The New Democratic Party of Canada has been pushing for tough and effective legislation to crack down on these unscrupulous and crooked consultants.

Many years ago, in the early eighties, I was an assistant to a former member of Parliament, at that time the NDP critic for immigration, Mr. Dan Heap. During my time with him at the constituency office, I saw a wall of potential immigrants being cheated out of thousands of dollars and having their dreams of being able to stay in Canada destroyed.

Working at that time with the Globe and Mail, I had my mother carry a concealed tape recorder to look at some of these unscrupulous consultants. This was in the early 1980s. Subsequently, there were a series of articles in the Globe and Mail that documented many cases where she was given the wrong advice or overcharged. Back then, we were hoping that something would be done.

Unfortunately, even in the 1990s, nothing much was done and matters became worse and worse until 2002, when the House of Commons immigration and citizenship committee conducted a study, and then in 2004, when the former Liberal government enacted legislation and set up an organization. Unfortunately, the advice from the immigration department and the community was ignored and the organization had no power to regulate. The agency that was charged with protecting the vulnerable newcomers did not improve the situation. In fact it got worse. The Liberal government just never got the job done.

The bill before us today, Bill C-35, is a step in the right direction. Consultants must be licensed in order to charge fees or act on a person's behalf. The Canadian Border Agency must be given resources to enforce this law. We could have the best law, but if there is no enforcement, it would not be worth the paper it is written on. Immigration officers must be trained to detect fraud. They must be trained so that sufficient information is given to applicants and there is no need to hire an expensive consultant or a lawyer for straightforward immigration applications.

At the immigration committee, we have studied this issue for many months and we have issued two reports. During our travels, we have heard that the existing organization, the Canadian Society of Immigration Consultants, has a lot of shortcomings. The membership fees are too high and membership examinations are prepared and marked in a questionable way. We also heard that CSIC has failed to develop an industry plan. We heard that their decision-making lacks transparency and is not conducted democratically. We heard that the CSIC board of directors is not accountable to anyone. This is the board body that was established in 2004. There is no possibility for CSIC members to call a special meeting of the society. Compensation for CSIC board members, like their spending, is extravagant, ill-advised, and unaccounted for. CSIC board members are in a conflict of interest, because they created and currently serve on the board of the Canadian Migration Institute, a related for-profit corporation.

We heard that many members had little choice but to pay $800 to buy an outdated educational video in order to obtain sufficient continuing professional development points to maintain a CSIC membership; that the ability of members to voice concerns about CSIC has been limited since the CSIC rules of professional conduct were amended, making it a professional offence to “undermine” CSIC and compelling members to treat CSIC with "dignity and respect”; and finally, that the CSIC website is set up so that members cannot communicate with one another by sending bulk email messages.

These are allegations, complaints that we have heard. The committee, after this long study, decided to take action. We issued a report recommending that we find some ways to protect the most vulnerable; that we establish a new corporation with the power to license its members, examine their conduct, and resolve complaints; and that the Government of Canada remain involved in its affairs until it is fully functioning.

We also recommended that a regulator establish no-cost complaint procedures to support immigrants with precarious Canadian status in lodging complaints. That is important, because some of those who are the most vulnerable feel that if they complain, they will get deported, which means that their case would not be examined by the immigration department. We have to establish complaints procedures for these immigrants. Part of the recommendation said that we have to inform immigrants that their complaints to the regulator will have no negative impact upon their immigration applications.

Moreover, we recommended coordinated investigations and enforcement of the law. We wanted a lead agency to be named to coordinate investigation, communication, and enforcement efforts within four months after the 2008 report. It is unfortunate that this never quite happened, but I sure hope that if this bill passes a lead agency will be named as quickly as possible to make sure that the law approved in Parliament is enforced properly. If not, it would be a real mistake.

We also recommended that the CSIC website should contain a list of authorized representatives practising in this country .

In November of last year, I moved a concurrence motion on these recommendations. The House of Commons supported these recommendations and supported the concurrence motion, so the intention of this House is clear. We want new regulations, new legislation to protect the most vulnerable. We want clear enforcement guidelines. We also want to make sure that education will continue so that potential immigrants, even if they are overseas, will understand their rights and know how to go about filing a complaint.

The new regulations would provide the minister with the power to designate a new body to govern immigration consultants, and we need to make sure that this body is picked in a way that is transparent, and that this body is legitimate, democratically run, and willing to go after those who are violating the law.

We note that under their rules of conduct, a consultant must never “knowingly assist in or encourage any dishonesty, provision of misleading information, fraud, crime or illegal conduct”. Yet through the Toronto Star series, we have noticed that a number of CSIC members allegedly gave wrong information and told people how make up a story to get into the refugee claimant process, even though they had no such refugee experience. They end up giving the entire immigration system and refugee claimants a bad name.

It is important for the minister to continue monitoring a new body to ensure it behaves in a way that will protect the most vulnerable because if not, lives could be ruined.

One day I hope immigration regulations can be clarified and simplified in a way so potential immigrants do not feel they need to hire someone to submit applications for them. I also hope the laws will be applied in a way that immigrants do not feel is arbitrary. They should be transparent so immigrants know where their applications are. Also the whole process should be on the Internet so applicants can tell how far along their applications are, how much longer they have to wait, what their application numbers are and whether they have submitted all the right documents.

I note the minister has just returned from Australia, which has that kind of processing. Because it is e-filed, immigrants can tell whether all the documents are done in a way that is appropriate. This kind of processing would be transparent and immigrants would not need to hire a consultant, a lawyer, or even come to a member of Parliament to get a status update of their applications.

Also one day I hope visitor visas or refugee claims are done in a way that is clear. Then migrants or potential visitors who want to come to Canada will not feel they need to hire consultants. After all, we are supposed to serve those who want to come to Canada.

Why is this important? It is critically important because we know some of these immigrants have a choice to go to other countries and we want the brightest and the best to come to Canada. If they keep hearing all these horror stories of relatives, neighbours or friends who have been ripped off by the most unscrupulous consultants, they will not have confidence in Canada's immigration system.

I also note that Australia's website shows almost every month which immigration consultants have been de-listed, for what reason and which new consultants have been listed. Those kinds of lists on the Internet are kept up-to-date so any time people want to hire a consultant, they will know clearly who is qualified and who is not. I certainly hope this would be the kind of system we would go toward.

Last, it is critically important that through the Canada Border Services Agency there would be some kind of investigation of the type of fraud now being committed by some of these consultants. Those who are victimized will then feel they have a chance to speak out. If the investigation of their claims proves their case was completely messed up because of bad advice by unscrupulous consultants, their claims should be re-evaluated.

In the meantime, on behalf of the New Democratic Party of Canada I will continue to carefully monitor the progress of the crackdown on crooked consultants and scrupulous consultants so that all crimes directed against immigrants will be severely punished.

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Minister of Citizenship]

Mr. Speaker, I commend my colleague the member for Trinity—Spadina for her thoughtful comments, her work on this issue for many years and, particularly, for her leadership in crafting the 2008 standing committee report from which she quoted.

I will respond in particular to some of her suggestions about operational and administrative improvements that would help to reduce the demand or the need essentially many people feel to hire consultants to simplify the very complex process to apply for visas or immigration to Canada. I agree with her that the CIC could do a whole lot more to improve the process to simplify it and make it more transparent.

I readily admit that Citizenship and Immigration Canada has been significantly behind the curve when it comes to harnessing new information technology that would help to simplify the process in the way that the Australians have. She is quite right that they have a system that works easier to attract applications and reduces a lot of administrative burden because people are able to apply online for most of the business lines in its immigration ministry.

I am pleased to report to her and to the House that we have begun the process of finally rolling out the global case management system, which will, in the not too distant future, create a seamless worldwide electronic management of immigration and visa applications. An increasing number of applications will be able to be done directly online.

I can also report that in 2006 there was a simplification of most of the forms and we continue to look for ways that we can simplify those forms. We continue to look at ways that we can improve service and make things simply more user-friendly, and that is really the objective.

I want to thank her for that. Perhaps this is an area the committee could dig into in greater detail. It could look at the Australian and other reference points.

As a ministry, we are finally beginning to enter the 21st century as it were in terms of facilitating easier client service. She is quite right that this will mean less reliance on consultants, both legitimate and crooked.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I thank the minister for taking this step and introducing the bill in front of us. It has been a long time coming.

A user-friendly, seamless service would be tremendously good news for many of the applicants who are struggling with the paperwork. Members of Parliament have spent thousands of hours trying to get status updates for their constituents. Constituency offices in some urban centres would tell us that 80% of their cases are immigration-related and it really should not be that way. It is costing us time and it is costing the visa office time to dig up these cases every time an MPs office calls. This is not helping the immigrants. It is not helping the department. It is not helping the MPs office.

The Auditor General has been telling us to get this done right, to be user-friendly. It would be really good news if we could get out of the paper-driven process. I cannot wait to see that day arrive.

In the meantime, at committee let us look for the most constructive ways to get this bill through and see if there are ways we can even improve it. Let us work together to provide the best services for potential immigrants.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

Mr. Speaker, I had asked this question earlier of the Bloc member and I want to clarify some aspects of this vis-à-vis employees of members of Parliament who act so many times on behalf of immigrants across the country. In some cases they may give advice that would determine the course of action immigrants would take on whether they would move for one type of visa or the other. According to this situation, exemptions given would be under agreements or arrangements the government has. Does that suggest there would be some training or some understanding of how to apply this?

Right across the country, as every MP will indicate, we are the front line for the immigration services of Canada. Is that going to change or are we going to find some way that we can interpret this law so our people can rest assured that they, acting on behalf of us, are not going to be in contravention of the law?

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

Mr. Speaker, my reading of this bill is that it is totally legal for any non-profit organization or MP's office to provide as much information or act on behalf of constituents. A lot of immigrant service organizations, non-profit ones, will continue to give that kind of advice as long as a fee is not charged. It is illegal to charge a fee if not licensed. MP's offices will not charge a fee. If no fee is charged, then it is totally legal to provide advice, and that includes relatives, MPs' offices, or any immigrant serving agency. I do not think there is any problem with that at all.

MPs' offices should not be a sub-office of the immigration department. Sometimes we feel like we are one. There is no reason why we should be one. However, until the day when we do not need to get status updates, et cetera, we will continue to provide the service to our constituents. I do not think we need to fear that we will be contravening this law because no MP's office is requesting a fee from constituents, at least I hope not because I believe it is illegal.

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Maybe Karygiannis.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

Some may say that one needs to join a certain party in order to do that. I have actually heard of those kinds of allegations in fact.

Also, I know that CIC does provide training to MPs' offices from time to time so they would be able to give good, sound and wise information to our constituents. I certainly hope that the immigration department will continue to provide this kind of training to all staff of members of Parliament.

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Mr. Speaker, to confirm what the member for Trinity—Spadina said in response to the member's question, those who are affected by the bill and the associated regulations are those who provide advice or representation for consideration, which is defined as compensation. Therefore, MPs and non-profit groups will be very clearly excluded so they can continue to provide that advice.

There is another point I want to add about the service improvements. I should have mentioned that I witnessed on my recent trip to Asia that our immigration managers there have been very effective at improving client service. To give one example, in our Beijing office we are processing 50% more temporary resident visa applications this year than last, but we are typically finalizing those applications the day they are received in our office. Therefore, there is same-day service, which is a huge benefit because it means people do not have to call to find out the status of their application. We are seeing that kind of innovation and efficiency happening throughout the ministry, thanks to the very competent public servants working at Immigration Canada.

[Raymonde Folco, Liberal, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I rise on behalf of the Liberal Party of Canada to discuss Bill C-35, An Act to amend the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act, introduced by the government. These changes should tighten the legislation governing the activities of consultants who help prospective immigrants, refugees and other individuals who want to enter Canada and remain here.

First, I would like to congratulate the minister on this initiative. I believe the government's action is laudable and the intent well-meaning. We agree, in principle, that there are people all over the world who prey on unsuspecting individuals, individuals who want to immigrate, or even prospective refugees who want to come to Canada. These people, in retribution for money or other services, act as consultants to these prospective immigrants.

As has been mentioned by my other colleagues, and I am the last in a long list of people who have spoken on this bill, Liberals have been calling on the government to take action as a result of the 2008 parliamentary report from the special advisory committee.

We know that many prospective immigrants ask for the services of these individuals as they prepare their immigration to Canada and we know that prospective immigrants rely on unregulated global consulting firms. We are not necessarily talking about an individual working from a small office or home. We are talking in some cases of actual global networks of consulting firms that are helping each other and inventing laws as they go. These consulting firms consistently give advice on international laws and specifically Canadian immigration laws for very exorbitant fees.

Not only do these consultants provide fraudulent advice but they often make empty, unfeasible promises that cost their clients dearly. When I say these promises can cost their clients very dearly, I mean they can cost a lot of money but also they sometimes cost potential immigrants dearly by inducing them to tell lies that can result in Canada’s gates being closed forever to them.

As commendable as the minister has been on this bill, I would like to bring up some specific questions. For example, how does the government intend to control unscrupulous consultants operating offshore without interfering with the sovereignty of the country?

I know the minister mentioned that he just came back from India, China and other countries particularly in Asia and said the government of India was willing to co-operate by amending its laws to regulate immigration consultants. What I worry about, and I would certainly like to hear something from the minister on this, is how the monitoring and evaluation of these consultants can be carried out in countries where there may not be an infrastructure in place.

I read a lot of the ethnic newspapers here in Canada. Many of them are in the ethnic language, but there are also lots of ads that appear in either French or English. I see the number of immigration consultants that proliferate everywhere. I am not always sure there is an infrastructure in place in the country of origin to actually control what is going on over there. That is one question.

The other one is, how many countries are we talking about and is it really feasible for the government of the country of origin to actually control what is going on with these immigration consultants?

The other problem is one that I saw when I visited India many years ago, and that is the proliferation of false documentation. The minister referred to this in his speech.

There was talk about birth and marriage certificates, death certificates, professional diplomas and so forth. Sometimes these certificates do not seem genuine, but very often it is virtually impossible for us to tell whether they are genuine or not. So what can be done to prevent this proliferation of certificates?

My colleague, the MP for Papineau, has reminded members of the House about the vulnerability of individuals seeking to enter and remain in Canada. I am not going to repeat his words. These were very important words because it shows us again how unscrupulous people in Canada and elsewhere prey on the vulnerability of people who come to this country wanting to make a better life for themselves, who are not always refugees but people willing to sometimes invest money in this country and yet, because of lack of knowledge, can be preyed upon by these unscrupulous consultants.

I would like to remind the House that the initial initiative came from the former Liberal government, which in 2002 created an advisory committee to identify the ongoing problems within the immigration consulting industry. This committee's task was to identify the issues and propose ways to regulate the industry.

In 2003, there was a very large debate on this subject and a regulatory body was established called the Canadian Society of Immigration Consultants with the mandate to act as a regulatory body for the governance, education and, most importantly, accreditation of immigration practitioners.

Bill C-35 suggests creating a designated body. I want to stop right there and say that a basic question remains. Why does the government want to create a new body in Bill C-35 to replace the old one?

We all agree that the old body had some major faults. I will describe them in a few minutes, but the question I want to raise is why can we not just improve an existing institution rather that totally destroying it and replacing it with a new one with all new regulations? Why not try to improve what already exists and take advantage of its institutional memory and the experience of its members to move forward?

There have certainly been some problems with the creation and operations of the Canadian Society of Immigration Consultants. For example, there was the entrance examination for members that was drawn up and evaluated in a way that seems rather dubious. There were also some decisions made by the society that lacked transparency. It was seen to operate in a way that was often not very democratic. There were also some remarks such as the lack of accountability on the part of its board of directors. I would not want the board members to feel individually targeted. I am referring to the way in which the institution operated and not particular individuals. There were also conflict of interest problems with the board, especially with the people who created the Canadian Society of Immigration Consultants and are still members of it.

Certainly, as I see Bill C-35, members who are now coming into the debate ought to step back and ask the questions. One question among many is, how important is corporate memory in the development of an organization and in the development of this particular organization?

It is important that we have corporate memory that we can carry on. At the same time, and I do underline this, I am not saying that nothing should be done. We should be build on what already exists. It would be fruitful, and I mentioned this, for the standing committee to ask how we can possibly merge the CSIC strategic plan and its original reason for being established in 2003 with the corporate strategic plan and vision of the Canadian Migration Institute, which is actually part of the Canadian Society of Immigration Consultants.

I have other concerns with the CSIC. For example, we can look at the outdated training material. Members of the society have spoken to me about this. It needs to be redone. We have talked about communications in official languages. As the critic for francophonie for my party, I am very aware of the need to do all the work and to publish all the work on the web and elsewhere in the two official Canadian languages.

Another concern that has been raised in the standing committee's report is the limited ability of members to voice concerns about the CSIC since the rules of professional conduct were amended making it a professional offence to undermine CSIC and compelling members to treat CSIC with dignity and respect. We should be allowed to criticize without it being thought that we are undermining.

Once again, this government is not known among Canadians for its openness and keen sense of accountability. It cannot be said that it sets an example of good governance.

The government has withheld information from the commissioner of inquiry studying detainee transfers, for example. It consistently blocks freedom of information requests from the public. I do not want to go further in this vein. We need to have more information because other members can certainly share their own experiences of government secrecy and the shutdown of communication.

I want it to be made clear that I am not condoning any alleged concern that members of the public may have with the Canadian Society of Immigration Consultants and the operations of the organization as outlined in the Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration 2008 report. I am drawing a parallel.

I would like to come back to the fact that we must build on our experience, meaning that in this case we should not be dismantling an institution; rather, we should be using our knowledge of what is working and what is not to keep what works and improve it.

The main problem we may also seem to be dealing with is that the Canadian Society of Immigration Consultants, CSIC, which is a non-profit corporation, has made it mandatory, and I think rightly so, to have those who want to be accredited to go through an education process before that can take place. However, we know from comments we have heard that this education process is incomplete and that it has to be ameliorated, once again, building on what we know, on the weaknesses that people have indicated to us.

There is also, as I mentioned before, a perceived conflict of interest of members of the board.

The Canadian Migration Institute, which is an arm of the society, is the body that carries out the accreditation in order for an individual to be recognized as a certified consultant.

Surely, I think that this is no different from other professional bodies that regulate and certify professionals for a fee.

There are arguments regarding members of the board of the Canadian Society of Immigration Consultants who now sit on the for profit board, the Canadian Migration Institute, the CMI, a wholly-owned group of the not for profit CSIC, as I mentioned before.

I would like to say once again that although the Liberals approve this proposed legislation in principal, because we need Bill C-35, there must surely be other ways of resolving some of the issues that I highlighted here today.

I would like to reiterate that it was the Liberals on this side of the House that started investigating and implementing regulations for the immigration and refugee consultant industry. I am speaking on behalf of all the members here as well as those who are not here. We want this endeavour to succeed, and we believe that we are more than halfway to our goal.

We intend to work with the government to ensure that those who want to come to Canada can get the help they need without having to rely on unscrupulous consultants.

We offer our expertise in the spirit of the kind of remarks that I making here in this House.

We would like to see a wider public input into what the accreditation body could look like and how its policies can be reframed. I hope hearings of the legislative committee studying this bill will not be rushed. What I hope, in fact, is that this bill will be accepted by this House, that it will then go on to be studied by the Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration, which will ameliorate it, and that while the standing committee is studying this bill, it will take the time to hear from Canadians from all parts of the country.

We must hear from those people who have been used by unscrupulous consultants. The minister asked my colleague, a few minutes ago, whether he had any knowledge of people who had actual experience of being used by unscrupulous consultants. I think that is an important question. It is an important question that the consultative committee will have to ask of the witnesses.

However, again, I ask the question, why do we have to destroy an administrative body in order to re-establish another one? Why not start from what we know of the old one and build on that?

Finally, we would like to hear from Canadians on how we can make our immigration laws simpler. I welcome the intervention of the minister who said just a few minutes ago that he is working on this global approach. I hope that the global approach will not mean that there will not be a possibility for us to intervene when we think the decision taken is the wrong decision. However, he is working on a global approach and I hope that global approach will make it simple and accessible for those prospective immigrants so that they do not feel the need to go to an immigration consultant, and that they, and here I am in agreement with the MP from the NDP, are not taken advantage of as is the case sometimes. So the recourse to consultants and the recourse to MPs, we hope, will be much less than what it is now.

I also hope that all the concerns raised in the 2008 standing committee report will be reflected in the government's present vision for the re-established body.

So, the process has started. We want to get it right. We feel that we are more than halfway there.

Again, I reiterate that we intend to work with the government to ensure that those who wish to enter Canada can get the assistance they need without the use of unscrupulous immigration consultants.

We support Bill C-35. We hope that it will receive the votes needed in order to send it to committee for further study.

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Minister of Citizenship]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. member and congratulate her on her remarks and perceptive questions. I would like to respond to some of them.

The member asked how we can monitor consultants who operate abroad. If a person is representing an applicant for a visa or immigration to Canada anywhere in the world and he or she represents that person to Citizenship and Immigration Canada, it does not matter whether the person is in Canada or India, we will not deal with the person unless he or she is a registered member in good standing of the designated regulatory body.

How do we monitor these consultants? We identify whether they are registered by going to the CSIC website and seeing if they are a member in good standing. What typically happens is that the larger consultancies in Canada, the more legitimate ones, will establish offices in our major immigration source countries and have them register and become members of the regulatory body. The problem is that most of the consulting and representational work done abroad is done by ghost consultants.

The legislative changes here will clarify that acting as a ghost consultant is illegal for Canadian legal purposes. However, the real problem is that most of the really nasty stuff is the production of counterfeit documents and the like where people will never report. They will continue to operate as ghost consultants abroad, which is why we need the co-operation of governments abroad in bringing in legal frameworks and focusing more enforcement resources on this area of exploitation of their own citizens.

The member asked how we will follow up with these countries. There are 180 source countries for immigration to Canada and we cannot realistically expect all of them to have a seamless legal system for the regulation of immigration consultants. I am focusing on, by far, the three largest source countries where we tend to see fairly high levels of fraud, which are China, India and the Philippines.

We had very productive meetings. My officials are now bringing together some of the dossiers on the worst offenders in the industry. For example, we are aware of one guy in India who took at least a quarter of a million dollars from students in one scam alone, producing clearly counterfeit banking documents that he submitted, probably knowing full well that CIC would reject the applications, but he had the cash in hand. We will take that information, put a bow on it, take it to the state police in Punjab and say that we want the guy prosecuted. I got an agreement from the chief minister in Punjab that the police will follow through with enforcement on cases like that. So we are making progress finally.

How do we stop the proliferation of counterfeit documents? It is the same kind of thing. We just need to work with those local governments. I can give the member one case. Our officials In Delhi and in Mumbai brought the local police clear evidence of the counterfeit of Canadian visas that were being sold, if I am not mistaken, for $10,000 a piece. The Indian police arrested the perpetrators and they are now facing criminal charges. Therefore, by proactively co-operating with local police services we can actually deal with the problem.

I have run out of time to address her questions about the designation of the regulatory body but I would be happy to get into that at committee with our colleagues.

[Raymonde Folco, Liberal, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. minister. Of course I had other questions to ask. The only thing I would like to add is that I understand that he chose the following three countries: China, India and the Philippines. Those three countries have huge populations and their citizens often live far from government centres and police services.

I think it is an excellent idea. I have some doubts about the effectiveness of this measure, but I understand we must start somewhere, and this is perhaps a good place to start.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

Mr. Speaker, at the committee we said that the problem with the CSIC was not just a growing pain. Under the former Liberal government, the legislation was set in a way that CSIC has no power to sanction immigration consultants who are not members of the society and it cannot seek judicial enforcement of the disciplinary consequences imposed on those who are members.

Further, because the CSIC's jurisdiction is not governed by statute, there is no possibility for dissatisfied members and others to influence the society's internal functioning through judicial review.

In the view of the committee, these shortcomings should be addressed by new legislation.

Would the member now be satisfied, given our findings at the immigration committee, that because of these shortcomings we need new legislation and that just patching up the old one will not work? That was in the recommendation from the committee which was endorsed by the House of Commons.

[Raymonde Folco, Liberal, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I understand the words “new legislation” as being interpretable by the new legislation that the government has just put forward with Bill C-93. I welcome the bill because it is an excellent idea but it could very well, as I suggested in my presentation, simply reform the existing body.

I thought I had made it clear in my presentation that I am not in any way saying that the body that did exist and still exists was and is perfect. Far from it. I mentioned many of the weaknesses that it has. I also welcomed the minister's bill.

However, what I queried was the fact that we were going to destroy one institution and the little bit of good that it did as well and replace it by another. My suggestion was that rather than destroy it we should ameliorate what already exists.

[Alan Tonks, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

Mr. Speaker, it seems to me that in the original legislation to set up the CSIC, there was an attempt to professionalize the opportunity, similar to law societies and the Ontario Medical Association, to discipline those among the ranks and to have the legislative capability to sanction those who were outside of the authority. However, the legislation did not give the CSIC that kind of power. In fact, I have heard many who in good faith have become members and who have been very critical, as both my colleagues have talked about.

At committee is it not really a matter of legislative action to empower in a professional way the CSIC and to do that quickly. As long as this exists there will be those who are literally outside the law who are exploiting those who are most vulnerable. Is it not possible for the committee to get on with that very quickly and then come back to the House with a legislative remedy?

[Raymonde Folco, Liberal, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member has put it much better than I could have. Once again, this is entirely compatible with Bill C-93. What we are asking for and certainly what I am asking for is a modification, as we say in French, une amélioration de ce qui existe déjà. This is the legislation that the consultative committee asked for. We have it before us. We have waited a long time. There is a question of time as well.

The longer we wait for a new body to be created and, once it is created, to have new members, all this time is being wasted as people are waiting and some people are being taken advantage of.