Bill C-575 (Historical)

First Nations Financial Transparency Act

An Act respecting the accountability and enhanced financial transparency of elected officials of First Nations communities

This enactment seeks to make public, on an annual basis, the disclosure of the remuneration and reimbursement of expenses paid to First Nations councillors and chiefs using funds that are provided by the federal government in the form of grants, contributions and allowances.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Did you meet with anyone from the Prime Minister's Office in preparing Bill C-575?

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the committee for the opportunity to be here to speak to my private member's bill, the First Nations Financial Transparency Act.

First and foremost, I'd like to thank my colleagues for their support in getting Bill C-575 this far. The bill addresses a very important issue. I'm glad that my Conservative colleagues and 15 members of the Liberal caucus voted in favour of giving the right to more effective governance to all first nations communities. The MPs deserve to be commended for supporting grassroots aboriginal Canadians.

Allow me to share a few facts about Saskatchewan. There are 70 first nations in Saskatchewan, and 61 are affiliated to one of the nine tribal councils. The majority are members of the Federation of Saskatchewan Indian Nations. As of February 28, 2009, the total registered population of Saskatchewan first nations was 129,138 individuals. There are five linguistic groups represented in Saskatchewan: Cree, Dakota, Dene, Nakota, and Saulteaux. Treaties 2, 4, 5, 6, 8, and 10 cover the province of Saskatchewan. Finally, the First Nations University of Canada is in Regina, Saskatchewan.

Knowing that my time was coming up on the order of precedence, I took the development of my private member's bill very seriously. It was important to me to address an issue that I believed all Canadians, and indeed all parliamentarians, would be able to support.

The issue of transparency and accountability is very important to me as a member of Parliament. I believe that members of first nations, like other Canadians, deserve transparency and accountability from their elected officials on the disclosure of remuneration derived from public funds.

Bill C-575 would ensure this and would level the playing field for all first nations communities. There is no consistency right now. Some first nations proactively disclose the information, some provide it when asked, and others outright refuse. It is clear this has been a long-standing issue for first nations community members trying to access the information.

Bill C-575 is a straightforward bill. If passed in its current form, it would require first nations to proactively disclose the salaries they earn and the expenses they have been reimbursed when the funds come from federal tax dollars.

To be honest with you, I find it quite perplexing that Bill C-575 has been met with as much resistance as it has. Elected officials across the country disclose this information as a matter of due course. As I stated earlier, aboriginal Canadians deserve the same level of disclosure from their politicians.

The bill does not increase the burden of reporting on first nations. The information is already collected, audited, and submitted to Indian and Northern Affairs Canada. This straightforward legislation mandates the proactive disclosure of the information and allows the Minister of INAC to disclose it in the community profile section on the INAC website.

I'd like to briefly address the accusations that have been made surrounding this bill.

It has been suggested that Bill C-575 somehow makes troubling insinuations about first nations politicians. Nothing could be further from the truth. Bill C-575 makes no insinuations or judgments about the salary levels that first nations governments have the duty and indeed the right to set for themselves. It is my hope that Bill C-575 will be used as an effective tool to dispel some of the unfair generalizations that have been made.

Neither is Bill C-575 redundant or somehow unnecessary. If that were the case, I would not be getting letters, emails, and phone calls from first nations band members thanking me for introducing this bill.

I want to quote from a letter that I received on January 11. The quotation is as follows: “I am in total support of passing the First Nations Financial Transparency Act and I will/have been speaking to the grassroots people in the past few weeks. The only support to kill the act is from the leadership who do not favour the figures to be made available to band membersas well as to the mainstream public at large. It is just a given that the bill should have been there a long time ago. I am very happy you are doing this for the average band member of the first nations land.”

On October 3, I received another letter from a first nations member, who wrote, “I have felt compelled to email you my support for the first nations bill you have introduced. It is so long overdue and needed. The situation on my reserve is the former chief and council...”--and all names have been redacted, I would add--“...have to account for a whopping $1.3 million in oil moneys missing, yet no one ever hears about this, nor do the media care. With a bill of this nature, it could have been prevented, in my opinion. Please do all you can to have this bill passed and implemented immediately so that our future, the children, never have to go through this, as we have allowed through ignorance and deceit.”

Regardless of the facts behind these letters, one thing is clear: if passed, Bill C-575 will ensure that all first nations members know what their elected officials earn. I suppose it could be asked why this is important. I would like to point to just one example of excellent leadership.

Chief Darcy Bear of the Whitecap Dakota First Nation has taken his reserve from a 70% unemployment rate to a 4% unemployment rate. This is what he has to say about the issue and the bill, and I quote: “...I fully support Mrs. Block's private member's bill. Our prudent, ethical business-like approach has been vital to achieving that dramatic turnaround.”

He went on to say, “How can you attract banks and business partners into your community without being accountable and transparent to your own members? You can’t.”

This supports my belief that enhanced accountability will help spur economic development, create jobs, and fuel overall growth and success for first nations communities.

There are very good examples of transparent and accountable first nations governments. There are those, however, that are not. Bill C-575 will ensure transparency and accountability for all first nations communities.

In conclusion, Mr. Chair, this is a very important issue, and this is a very important committee dealing with these very important issues. I urge you to have a broad, open dialogue on the issue with Canadians from coast to coast to coast. Amend Bill C-575, if necessary, and ensure that this legislation is passed.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Welcome back, everyone.

We are taking up the second part of our meeting this morning. This is pursuant to the order of reference of Wednesday, March 2, on Bill C-575, An Act respecting the accountability and enhanced financial transparency of elected officials of First Nations communities.

We welcome, much like the earlier witness we had, the sponsor of the bill. Ms. Kelly Block is the member of Parliament for the riding of Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar. Of course, Ms. Block, you know the drill here. We will do an opening presentation of up to 10 minutes, and then we'll go to a seven-minute round for questions.

Members, just for your benefit, Ms. Block can only be with us until no more than about 20 minutes after the hour, so we'll see how our questions go and try to suspend no later than that.

Go ahead, Ms. Block, with your opening comments.

The House resumed from February 28 consideration of the motion that Bill C-575, An Act respecting the accountability and enhanced financial transparency of elected officials of First Nations communities, be read the second time and referred to a committee.

First Nations Financial Transparency Act

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to bring to the attention of the House Bill C-575, the First Nations Financial Transparency Act, which will be voted on this evening in the House of Commons at second reading.

This is a serious and important issue. The men and women of first nations reserves across Canada have the right to know what their elected officials are receiving from their bands' bank accounts, just like we all know what other elected officials at the federal, provincial and municipal levels are earning.

Bill C-575 will create legislation to disclose the remuneration paid to councillors and chiefs subject to the Indian Act. By establishing a clear, consistent standard for the financial disclosure of salaries and reimbursement of expenses of elected officials, we will enable citizens to make informed decisions.

First nations citizens deserve to know what their leaders receive in salaries and benefits. I call on all members of the House to vote in favour of this bill and support first nations communities.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased as a member of Parliament for the opportunity to introduce a private member's bill and to speak again to Bill C-575. I would also like to thank those of my colleagues who have expressed support for my bill.

This is a straightforward bill. By supporting it, members of Parliament will be confirming their commitment to transparency and accountability for all Canadians.

There are aboriginal Canadians who do not know what their band chiefs receive from the reserve through their salaries and expenses. These concerned individuals are either afraid to ask, have asked and been met with resistance, or have been refused outright. First nations band members should not have to ask for this information. It should be publicly available, just like it is for all other elected officials across our country.

Some members have argued that the bill would increase the burden of reporting for first nations. This is false. What the bill will do is make figures that are already audited publicly available. To those members of Parliament who have opposed this bill, I ask: Who are they representing?

Chief Darcy Bear of the Whitecap Dakota First Nation has led his band from a 70% unemployment rate to a 4% unemployment rate. In his words: “Full disclosure has long been our practice at Whitecap, which is why I fully support Mrs. Block's private member's bill. Our prudent, ethical, business-like approach has been vital to achieving that dramatic turnaround. How can you attract banks and business partners into your community without being accountable and transparent to your own members? You can’t.”

I ask again of members opposite who are they helping by opposing the bill? It certainly is not the first nations band members who want their communities to prosper. It certainly is not the band chiefs and councils who want to be accountable to their people.

One of the many letters I received from members of first nations across the country put it very well: “I am in total support of the passing of the bill...The only support to kill the bill is from the leadership who do not favour the figures to be made available to band members as well as to the 'mainstream' public at large...I am very happy you are doing this for the average band member of the first nations lands.”

Some chiefs have expressed dismay at the speculation about their salaries and that there are unfair generalizations being made about their income. They claim that figures released in an access to information request to INAC are inaccurate and inflated. Passing Bill C-575 would put an end to the secrecy and the speculation.

In summary, this has been a longstanding issue for first nations community members seeking this information. I strongly believe in the principles of transparency and accountability. I also believe that first nations, like all Canadians, deserve transparency and accountability from their elected officials.

Again, there are numerous examples of disclosure for elected officials across our country. This bill will allow first nations to ensure that public funds flowing to their elected officials for salaries and expenses are publicly disclosed.

There is strong support among first nation community members for Bill C-575. To those members of Parliament who have up until now opposed the bill, I encourage them to re-examine their priorities and reflect on why they are here.

I ask all members to support this legislation. Let us get this bill into committee, hear from witnesses, amend it if necessary and show our support for first nations, their leaders, their band members and all Canadian taxpayers.

[LaVar Payne, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to stand in my place and take part in this debate and voice my support for Bill C-575, the first nations financial transparency act. I support the bill because it would provide a common sense response to a clear need, that being the right of the men and women of first nation communities to have local governments that are completely transparent and accountable. More specifically, they have a right to know exactly how much the elected leaders of those local governments earn in salary and in reimbursed expenses. Nothing could be clearer than that.

Bill C-575 would require that the annual financial statements of each federally funded first nation include a schedule of remuneration, with each schedule providing detailed information on the salaries and reimbursed expenses paid by a first nation to its chief and councillors. Every first nation would be required to make this remuneration schedule publicly available within 120 days after March 31 each calendar year. If any first nation fails to make public its schedule, the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development would have full legal authority to make it public.

Some of our colleagues have taken exception to this common sense approach. In their remarks, they have implied that Bill C-575 is an insult to first nation people because the hon. member for Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar did not develop the bill in close collaboration with first nations' leaders. They have stated that the bill is an abdication of leadership because it is a private member's bill and not one initiated by the government. They have asserted that the bill brands all first nations' elected officials as corrupt. In effect, they prefer to cloud the issue, to rekindle old quarrels, to change the subject and to keep first nation leaders' salaries secret.

I am convinced that I speak for the vast majority of Canadians when I say that I find absolutely nothing controversial, inflammatory or objectionable about Bill C-575. If anything is objectionable, it is the fact that some men and women of first nation communities have been deprived of the absolute right to know how much their elected leaders are paid. If anything is objectionable, it is the fact that we have waited this long to take this step to improve the transparency and accountability of first nation governments. After all, who among us could object to greater transparency and accountability in first nation governments?

We Canadians demand, and are continually taking steps to increase, transparency and accountability of governments at all levels throughout country, municipal, provincial, territorial and federal. We have laws in place throughout these jurisdictions to make the workings and decisions of governments, and the information used by them, more transparent to citizens. We have laws in place throughout these jurisdictions to put tools in the hands of citizens so they can access for themselves vital information used by governments. We have laws in place throughout those jurisdictions to make governments increasingly and more directly accountable to the men and women of the governments we serve.

We have taken these steps because we know, without question and without hesitation, the basic truth and fairness that underpin these laws. We know the truth and fairness of that in our minds. We also know the practical, real life value of laws that promote transparency and accountability of governments.

Laws that promote transparency and accountability lend greater credibility to the actions and decisions of governments. They strengthen the legal and moral authority of elected representatives. They encourage an atmosphere of trust and openness between governments and the governed. They also give Canadians the vital information they need to make informed decisions about their lives, there families, their futures. They lead to consistent government practices and procedures that in turn make the services governments provide more reliable and effective. Laws that promote transparency and accountability also help eliminate needless controversy and enable citizens and their governments to put the focus of public discussion where it belongs, on fundamental quality of life issues, such as housing, health care, education, economic development and jobs.

I want to take this opportunity to salute the first nation governments that have taken the steps outlined in Bill C-575 to promote transparency and accountability in their governments. Representatives of several first nation governments are on record stating that they are committed to making sure that the actions and decisions of their governments are transparent and financial information is made readily available to community members.

Just last month a strong example of a government taking steps to promote greater transparency and accountability was delivered by the Whitecap Dakota First Nation in Saskatchewan. Spurred by Bill C-575, the Whitecap Dakota First Nation chief, Darcy Bear, and the council have created an independent compensation commission that will set the pay for the chief and councillors.

Through their actions, chief Bear and his community councillors have shown that they support transparency and accountability of government and support making public audited financial statements that highlight their government's expenditure decisions and actions. Chief Bear has made it clear that he supports Bill C-575. He did so as he stood alongside the member for Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar.

Chief Bear supports the bill because he recognizes the practical value to his community of greater transparency and accountability. His actions and support for Bill C-575 acknowledge that greater transparency and accountability of government operations attract investors, spur economic development, create jobs, encourage trust in government and fuel the overall growth, optimism and success of his community. I can think of no more persuasive proof of the value of Bill C-575 than the views and support offered by Chief Bear and the members of the Whitecap Dakota First Nation.

I urge my colleagues to heed those views. I urge my colleagues to help bring about greater transparency and accountability in first nations government. I urge my colleagues to adopt Bill C-575.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to speak to this bill.

My colleague opposite very effectively chairs the Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development, but I was very surprised at his remarks. I know him to have an understanding of first nations issues. I know he has an understanding of the importance of the duty to consult. I know he understands the importance of collaboration and consultation. I know he understands the real meaning of transparency. He used words such as to “compel all first nations governments”. When I heard him say that, I thought to myself that with respect to transparency for Canadians and for parliamentarians to do their work, we cannot compel the Conservative government to provide documents, so why is one group singled out? I am quite struck by the irony of it.

I want to make clear at the outset that Liberals stand for transparency. We certainly stand for accountability in all governments, including first nations governments. We will fight for accountability and transparency with respect, with collaboration and in consultation with those affected. We will do it by being critical of this bill and asking the tough questions that need to be asked. There is nothing wrong with affirming and standing up for the principles of accountability and transparency.

I want to compare this bill with the Kelowna accord which, as members of the House know, was not honoured by the Conservative government.

The Kelowna accord represented 18 months of negotiation, collaboration and consultation. It was a high-water mark for the Government of Canada and aboriginal people, not just first nations, but Métis, aboriginal women and Inuit.

The process was as important as the outcome. Under the Kelowna accord, there was an elaborate, wholesome accountability for a results framework. It was broad based and comprehensive. It was not simply about reporting a number, but about how to deliver results for a community and for the people who live in that community. The most important aspect of the Kelowna accord was that it was mutual. It was not one-sided at the federal government level and it did not compel. It included a real collaboration between aboriginal and non-aboriginal people alike.

The recommendations coming out of the Kelowna accord included the establishment of a first nations auditor general and an independent body funded to oversee the accountability framework. The accountability framework was there. It was arrived at by aboriginal people working together with government through a process to determine how it would be done.

What I find extraordinary about this bill is that the paternalistic and maternalistic attitude of members opposite has come forward once again. There seems to be no respect for the Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples, which the government belatedly agreed to. The bill defies the principles of reconciliation that we heard the government speak to in the House many months ago.

As the sponsor of the bill has stated, much of what is in the bill is already being done. A financial statement approved by a chartered accountant is being done with a contribution by INAC. Generally accepted accounting principles are applied and there is an auditor.

Regarding transparency, the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development has the power, and did in 2005, to make sure that disclosure is there for first nations and anyone else.

It is not fair to imply that none of that is being done or that it cannot be done even under the existing protocol program.

Therefore, the question is: why has the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development not been compelled to have this done under his own authority under the act? Why is it a private member's bill and not a government bill? Why is this being done through the back door and not the front door?

The government and members opposite know full well that the government has a legal duty to consult with aboriginal people on issues that affect their rights and treaties. It is clear this consultation has not happened. Again we have heard the word “compel”. We have heard that it is mandatory for transparency.

I would reiterate that what is mandatory for transparency is also mandatory for transparency in this House. Again, is this bill compliant with the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples? I think not. Does the government truly believe in the right of self-government? I think not.

This appears to be an attempt to brand all first nations chiefs and councillors as somewhat corrupt. It is making an insinuation about the nature of first nations leadership and governance. It perpetuates myths and stereotypes that communities right across this country have been working hard to overcome.

There needs to be a different approach, one of collaboration and consultation. There should be a need to support substantive issues surrounding transparency, issues related to housing, water, education and health in first nations communities.

Many groups have commented on this bill. The Quebec native women's association stated in a press release that Bill C-575 “seems to be motivated by a prejudicial and racist view of aboriginal peoples as 'living off society', by implying that the federal funds coming from 'good taxpayers' money' granted to aboriginal chiefs and councillors are ill spent.

The association went on to say that the minister's support for the bill is a violation of his duty to consult and the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples.

The Auditor General has spoken about fiscally responsible aboriginal organizations and communities. She has spoken about the onerous reporting requirements of first nations communities and says that there is in fact 98% compliance with all of the reporting requirements for first nations people.

Fiscal relationships between first nation governments and the federal government ought to be akin to intergovernmental transfers rather than typical grants and contributions as depicted in Bill C-575.

Transparency and accountability are necessary, there is no question. They are necessary in this House as well as outside the House. They are necessary in all levels of government. However, compelling a mandatory accountability and compelling mandatory disclosure is not the way to deal with Canada's first nations people.

The Liberals support transparency and accountability, but I reiterate that it must be done in collaboration and in consultation. Members opposite know that.

[Bruce Stanton, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Mr. Speaker, it is a great delight to have this opportunity to express my wholehearted support for Bill C-575, the first nations financial transparency act.

The reason for my support of this bill is quite simple. It is time that the Parliament of Canada embed in the law of the land the right that all Canadians now enjoy, and all members of first nations should enjoy, and that is the right to know how much their elected representatives cost in terms of carrying out their public business.

Bill C-575 would secure this fundamental right of men and women of first nations communities in a perfectly straightforward way. The bill would require first nations governments to include a schedule of remuneration in its annual audited financial statement. Each schedule would provide detailed information on the salaries and reimbursement of expenses paid by a first nation to its chiefs and councils.

The bill further requires every first nation to make its schedule of remuneration publicly available within 120 days after March 31 in each calendar year. If any first nation fails to make public its schedule, the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development will have full legal authority to make it public.

All Canadians believe strongly in the right to know how much their elected representatives earn. I am convinced that the same can be said of first nations people. Our shared conviction alone should be more than enough reason for all of us to support Bill C-575.

Yet, that reason alone does not tell the whole story of this bill. Let us consider the practical benefits that would be generated when this principle is embedded in law. Three practical things come to mind: transparency, accountability and effectiveness.

Bill C-575 would help first nations governments become more transparent by having mandatory reporting requirements. All first nations governments, each and every year, would be required to make public detailed information on the salaries and reimbursement of expenses paid to chiefs and councillors without exception. Bill C-575 would mandate that this information be easily accessed by first nations communities. Transparency does not come much more straightforward than that.

And yet some of our colleagues and some leaders of first nation governments have said that Bill C-575 is unnecessary because many of these governments already make this information available to people who ask for it. Their stance leads me to wonder if these critics truly understand the meaning of political transparency.

Political transparency is not about governments merely being willing to share information. Genuine political transparency involves governments actually giving men and women the tools they need to see that information for themselves. That is transparency in its fullest. That is exactly what this bill would deliver.

The bill would also make first nations governments more accountable. We know accountability is another fundamental principle of Canadian political life. Canadians recognize that knowing how much their representatives make in salary and reimbursement of expenses lies at the very heart of political accountability. After all, how is it that Canadians can hold their elected representatives accountable for their actions if they do not have pertinent financial information at their fingertips? By requiring first nations governments to disclose detailed information on remuneration of expenses and salaries of their elected officials, this bill would make those elected officials more accountable to the people they serve.

I am pleased to see that the Assembly of First Nations agrees with the very principles of this bill. The AFN recently passed an important resolution at its special chiefs assembly in December. The resolution pledges that first nations governments should maintain what the AFN calls transparent and accountable decision-making structures.

I do need to point out that the first nations have always had the ability to make that information available in public. Regrettably, a considerable number choose not to. The AFN resolution merely asserts that, essentially, it is a good idea that first nations chiefs and councils might want to do this, but it is certainly not binding. We do not believe that an issue as important as this should rely only on a non-binding resolution. The path that the bill sets out is an effective, binding, and transparent way to ensure this information is available to the public.

Bill C-575 provides first nation governments with an ideal way to follow through on the AFN's intent—greater transparency and accountability. The bill provides these governments with a clear and consistent standard they can abide by, and that all men and women of first nation communities can expect their governments to honour. That kind of standard is a perfect example of political accountability.

I would like to take this opportunity to thank the hon. member for Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar for spurring the House to take constructive action to bring greater transparency, accountability and effectiveness to first nations governments. In that same spirit of constructive action, I want not only to express my wholehearted support for but also for the principle of this bill. I have one brief suggestion that she and the House might consider to improve it.

This suggestion is not completely my own. In response to a question posed by the honourable member for Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar on November 22, the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development stated that we should expand the coverage of Bill C-575 to include all sources of income earned by first nation chiefs and councillors—not just income that comes from funds transferred to first nation communities by the federal government.

I fully agree with the minister's idea and let me explain why. A small part of the funds that are collected for each first nation every year is an unconditional grant designated as band support funding. This money is designated to help communities pay the salaries of elected officials and non-elected administrators, and to offset the normal operating costs associated with running a band office. Yet, many first nations communities also derive revenue from other sources, such as band-owned businesses and through arrangements with other governments. Revenues from these sources may also be used to cover the salaries and expenses of first nations officials.

Accordingly, we should make sure that Bill C-575 compels each first nations government to detail in its schedule of remuneration all salaries, honoraria, and reimbursement of expenses paid to its chiefs and councillors directly or indirectly through the band office.

I urge all of my colleagues who serve on the Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development to consider this amendment, and even more fervently, of course, I urge members of the House who have joined us here this morning to adopt Bill C-575 at second reading.

It is time to pass the bill. It is time for all first nations governments to become even more transparent, accountable and effective.

It is time to embed in the law of the land a right that all members of first nation communities should enjoy.

The House resumed from November 25 consideration of the motion that Bill C-575, An Act respecting the accountability and enhanced financial transparency of elected officials of First Nations communities, be read the second time and referred to a committee.

Aboriginal Affairs

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK]

Mr. Speaker, I rise today to call upon the opposition parties to support my private member's bill, Bill C-575, First Nations Financial Transparency Act.

The issue is simple and the bill is straightforward. Aboriginal Canadians deserve transparency and accountability from their elected officials. Aboriginals across the country have sent me letters and emails and have phoned to express their support for this bill.

The Assembly of First Nations passed a non-binding resolution calling for greater transparency. Let us support aboriginal Canadians by giving them this tool to have the salaries and expenses of band chiefs and councils posted on INAC's website.

Now is not the time for partisan games. I call on all parliamentarians to show their support for aboriginals, for first nations, and all Canadian taxpayers by voting yes to the first nations financial transparency act.

[John Duncan, Conservative, Vancouver Island North, BC]

I'll try to remember all your questions.

As for how many claims there are over $150 million, specific claims, the original anticipation was four. Those I think were included in the Senate report, the Senate study done on specific claims. I believe that's where the number came from; I think that was in the previous Parliament. I don't think I was here.

In term so the Specific Claims Tribunal, we try to settle all of these outside a tribunal. That's sort of the last resort. The roster of the people who are going to be on that tribunal has now been announced by Minister Nicholson. As you know, it's an independent body. They have been provided with the funding. It would be a conflict of interest for me to be directly involved, so I'm not.

I'm not sure of the when or how or what of the start-up, but I can say that we've settled a lot of claims. Irrespective of what the tribunal is up to, we have been settling a lot of specific claims, some of them quite large, and some of them a lot smaller. I am proud of how we've been moving things along and settling grievances that have been out there for a long time, many of them since the early 1990s.

As to the salaries you were talking about, which I think you are probably asking about in relation to Bill C-575, my salary is posted and your salary is posted. We're elected officials. The people who work for elected officials are in a different bailiwick and--

First Nations Financial Transparency Act

[Jim Maloway, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to rise tonight to speak to Bill C-575.

At the initial presentation from the presenter of this bill, in the question period, I asked the member for Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar who she had consulted in the formulation and development of this bill and who was supporting the bill, including any organizations. I was expecting her to give me at least one group or person who she consulted with, or at least one supporter. Surely there should be at least one. However, she did not answer that question, which caused me to wonder about that.

We all know how much work is involved in developing a private member's bill. I would have expected, if she has developed this bill, that she would have been consulting with first nations communities in her riding, in her province or somewhere around the country.

As far as I can tell, based on her answer to my question, she has not consulted with a single one, not a single first nation, not a single member of a first nation. As to whom she actually has consulted, of course, we are none the wiser on that point.

Mr. Speaker are we really out of time? Is there not even one minute left?

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development]

Mr. Speaker, as a proud Métis woman and the only Métis woman here in the House of Commons, I am pleased to stand and express my support for Bill C-575, First Nations Financial Transparency Act.

I must first take issue with some of what my Liberal colleague had to say. It seems that he has forgotten all of the accomplishments that the Conservative government has made with regard to aboriginal people in this very short period of time that we have been here. Although I understand that had the Liberals had just one more term following those 13 years, they might have done something for aboriginal people, I would remind him of what the Conservative government has done in under five years.

We delivered a historic, long overdue apology to aboriginal survivors of residential schools. We implemented the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. We included reserves under the Canadian Human Rights Act. We settled record numbers of claims, well outperforming the Liberal record. We endorsed the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples. It goes on and on.

Now, the member for Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, in her very first term as MP, that is under two years that she has been here working on this, she adds to the Conservative accomplishments with the introduction of this long called for legislation.

Bill C-575 is an important legislative measure for all Canadians. It is not very complex and rather limited in scope. Indeed, this bill is clear, concise and targeted. It is important because it integrates into federal legislation a fundamental right that all Canadians should have: the right to know the salary of their elected representatives.

Bill C-575 recognizes this right to know by requiring the first nations to publish on an annual basis the salaries of their leaders and the reimbursement of expenses paid to their chiefs and councillors.

As the bill proposes, first nations would now be required by law to prepare a schedule of remuneration. This schedule would contain detailed financial information about each elected official of that community, how much each official gets paid for fulfilling his or her role, how much each official is reimbursed for expenses he or she incurs while carrying out public business, and exactly what type of expenses each official claims for reimbursement.

The bill would require every first nation to make its schedule of remuneration publicly available within 120 days after March 31 in each calendar year. The bill would empower the minister of Indian affairs and northern development to make public the schedule of any first nation.

Bill C-575 is clear, concise and sharply focused on ensuring first nations members can readily access detailed information on how much money their elected representatives earn in carrying out public business.

I would like to take this opportunity to congratulate the hon. member for Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar for developing this bill, for bringing it to our attention today and for further enhancing the transparency, accountability and competence of first nations governments.

I say “further enhancing” because the Government of Canada is already taking measures to promote the transparency and accountability of first nations governments. Financial agreements between first nations governments and Indian and Northern Affairs Canada include provisions requiring those governments to submit annual audited financial statements itemizing all their expenses. These documents also contain tables showing the salaries, honorariums and travel expenses of the elected representatives and the senior officials appointed by the bands.

Some first nations, in the spirit of complete transparency, post their complete audited financial statements on their websites. We congratulate them for doing so, and we encourage first nations leaders to take steps of their own to make this financial information readily available to community members. Yet, as we are all now very well aware, current practice related to disclosure is completely inconsistent and uneven.

Some first nations make available information on spending and reimbursement of expenses only, and only when requested to do so. Some first nations governments refuse community members access to financial information, forcing the people requesting this information to approach Indian and Northern Affairs Canada. Indeed, the department is too often made aware of situations in which community members cannot access audited financial statements or schedules of salaries. In these cases, department officials work with representatives of these governments to ensure that this information is released. If efforts to have a first nation release documents to its members are unsuccessful, Indian and Northern Affairs Canada will release that information to those who request it, guided by privacy protections and recent court decisions such as in the case of Montana.

Bill C-575 does away with this inconsistent, unreliable, catch-as-catch-can approach and replaces it with one that is consistent, reliable, predictable and transparent. The bill also clearly places the accountability on first nations governments to disclose remuneration in a manner similar to that of other governments. In fact my hon. friend's bill comes along at a perfect time. The approach to disclosure and transparency set out in Bill C-575 is a perfect complement to the steps that this government, Indian and Northern Affairs Canada and many first nations governments and organizations are taking to improve financial operations and make those activities more transparent to Canadians.

The Government of Canada has made it a priority to make governments more transparent and more accountable to citizens. Governments must report to citizens on their expenditures and outcomes, and these reports must be clear and easily accessible. The Federal Accountability Act is a clear example of this commitment. This historic legislation includes measures to improve administrative transparency, oversight and accountability throughout the federal government.

Indian and Northern Affairs Canada is also taking steps to improve its financial operations and make them more transparent for Canadians. For years the chief audit and evaluation executive has been conducting audits, evaluations and targeted studies on departmental policies, initiatives and programs. He then prepares reports in which he presents recommendations to address weaknesses and improve performance.

Recently the department put in place an audit and evaluation committee. Made up of several senior departmental executives and financial experts from outside the department, the committee examines the results of audits, evaluations and studies and assesses actions taken by the department to respond to these findings.

On top of all of that, the federal government and the governments of first nations are working together to improve financial operations and make those activities more transparent to all Canadians, aboriginal and non-aboriginal alike. We are working together to develop consistent, consolidated, audited financial statements so it will be easier for people in first nations communities to access and understand band-related financial information and so it will be easier for first nations governments to improve their transparency, accountability and effectiveness.

We are working to implement a new policy on transfer payments, which will help us all do a better job of managing risks, and we are designing and implementing programs that improve the quality of life of members of first nations communities. That is all vitally important work that, when combined with Bill C-575, will help make all our governments more transparent, more accountable and more effective, more equal.

Unfortunately, I know that some people believe that we should not bother with Bill C-575. Those people think that we should concern ourselves only with improving transparency and accountability at the federal level and that our resources could be better spent on abolishing the Indian Act, conducting an in-depth review of the reserve system and putting in place auditor general and independent ombudsman positions for the first nations.

Let us forget all of that. Let us seize opportunities to make changes on a range of important issues. What was tried in the past was not working.

Let us find ways to make first nations communities stronger. Let us work together to help people in these communities live longer, healthier, more fulfilling lives.

Let us do all of that, but do not let all this work sidetrack us or stop us from making sure that first nations members know how much their elected representatives earn in carrying out the public's business.

Meegwetch.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I am rising to speak to Bill C-575 and I will begin by quoting article 4 of the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples. It reads:

Indigenous peoples, in exercising their right to self-determination, have the right to autonomy or self-government in matters relating to their internal and local affairs, as well as ways and means for financing their autonomous functions.

It is troubling today that we are speaking to a bill on which there appears to have been absolutely no consultations with first nations in this country.

This bill is, in part, entitled, “an act respecting the accountability”. I would argue that this legislation has very little to do with accountability and much more to do with reporting. It would simply add another layer of reporting to bands that are already overburdened with reporting.

The bill would not ensure that chiefs and councils are accountable to the people who elect them. The bottom line is that it is up to the nations themselves to determine what is fair and reasonable compensation. I want to refer briefly to the Indian and Northern Affairs Canada website. This website has a couple of items about setting salaries and disclosure of salary information.

On setting salaries, it says:

The determination of an elected official's remuneration in a First Nations community is ultimately established by the First Nation government.

Under disclosure of salary information, there are already provisions for disclosure of salary information. It says:

In addition to federal funding, First Nations may derive revenue from other sources, such as band-owned businesses and arrangements with other levels of government. This revenue may be used in a variety of ways, potentially including salaries for elected officials. As with other levels of government, duly elected officials of First Nations are responsible for determining their compensation. In accordance with provisions in their funding agreements, First Nation councils must provide the Department with audited financial statements annually. Under these agreements, these audited statements are to be made available to members of the First Nations communities.

We can see that there is something in place to provide this information to first nation communities.

It goes on to say:

The Department does not, however, disclose information regarding the compensation for individual Chiefs or council members to the public due to legal considerations including the Privacy Act, case law such as the Montana decision....

I did not hear the member talk about how what she is proposing does not contravene the Montana decision where it clearly outlines that this kind of public disclosure was not appropriate.

We have heard about the Auditor General, but I specifically want to refer to testimony. I talked about the overburdening of reporting. On May 9, 2006, when the Auditor General was before the special committee on Bill C-2, the Federal Accountability Act, she said in her testimony:

On first nations, we make reference to a reporting study that we did back in December of 2002. When we looked at a number of first nations to see how many reports they actually had to produce for only four government departments, we found that they had to produce 200 and more reports in a year.

Later on, she said:

Four of the reports were audited financial statements, and another 52 reports were dealing with financial matters. There is often a financial report for each individual program as well as an overall financial report.

She went on to say:

At the time, we said that there really needed to be a streamlining of the reporting, that there had to be a consolidation of reports. We asked if it wouldn't be better, quite frankly, to have people delivering front-line services rather than filling out reports.

She went on to say that they were going to do an update on the status report but that a lot of reporting and audit already goes on in first nation communities. In fact, she confirmed that 96% of all first nations filed their large annual report on time and without incident.

One really needs to wonder what the purpose is of this legislation.

There are already a number of financial instruments in place that govern reporting. I want to refer to the Federal-Provincial Fiscal Arrangements Act. This particular act sets out how grants and contributions are made to first nations and regulations made under this act govern contribution agreements like the Canada-first nations funding agreement.

I obviously do not have time in my short time to go through every section, but section 4.7 deals with accountability to members and it outlines principles of transparency, disclosure and redress. Section 4.8 on accountability to recipients outlines the principles of transparency, disclosure and redress.

Some aspects of the Federal-Provincial Fiscal Arrangements Act outline what happens if one defaults or does not comply with the legislation. So there is currently a mechanism in place that deals with the reporting of various financial aspects of how bands are managed.

I want to touch briefly on a section of the Indian Act. Section 83(1) states:

...the council of a band may, subject to the approval of the Minister, make by-laws for any or all of the following purposes...,

(d) the payment of remuneration, in such amount as may be approved by the Minister, to chiefs and councillors, out of any moneys raised pursuant to paragraph (a);

We can see that in the Indian Act, the minister has oversight on remuneration and this is usually done by a band council resolution.

The Conservatives put together a blue ribbon panel in 2006 but virtually nothing in that blue ribbon panel has been enacted. However, one item on page 8 of the blue ribbon panel said that fiscal arrangements with first nations governments were complex, reflecting not only the varied circumstances of the 630 first nations in Canada, but also that payments to first nations governments are or ought to be more like intergovernmental transfers than typical grants and contributions.

I can assure hon. members that when we are looking at intergovernmental transfers, I cannot image the government asking the provinces to justify how much they pay their premiers, their MLAs or their MPPs. If the Conservative blue ribbon panel was recommending intergovernmental transfers, it does recognize a different kind of relationship.

I want to touch briefly on the AFN accountability measures. In 2005 and in 2006, the Assembly of First Nations made a number of recommendations to the Conservative government in terms of working together around accountability. There was a January 2006 report that said accountability for results. The report used the principle from the Auditor General. The report says that the Auditor General of Canada has defined accountability as a relationship based on the obligations to demonstrate, review and take responsibility for performance, both the results achieved in light of agreed expectations and the means used. The report then goes on to talk about adapting the principles for accountability of the Auditor General.

The Assembly of First Nations represents chiefs and councils throughout this country. Its members do not speak on behalf but they have a role in terms of facilitating. They are clearly in support of the Auditor General's principles. These principles are as follows:

Clear roles and responsibilities. Roles and responsibilities should be well understood and agreed on by the parties.

Clear performance expectations. The objectives, the expected accomplishments, and the constraints, such as resources, should be explicit, understood, and agreed on.

Balanced expectations and capacities. Performance expectations should be linked to and balanced with each party's capacity to deliver.

Credible reporting. Credible and timely information should be reported to demonstrate what has been achieved, whether the means used were appropriate, and what has been learned.

Reasonable review and adjustment. Fair and informed review and feedback on performance should be carried out by the parties, achievements and difficulties recognized, appropriate corrective action taken, and appropriate consequences carried out.

The Assembly of First Nations offered to engage in a collaborative process to develop the kinds of concrete initiatives that would allow all parties to implement the Auditor General's principles. However, here has been no action. It is a bit puzzling why we have a private member's bill before the House that did not engage in consultation, has not examined the instruments that are already available to government to look at that reporting relationship, does nothing to address the fact that chiefs and councils end up reporting to Indian and Northern Affairs and not to the people in their community. It is quite unusual that we would have a bill that could have a profound impact on how people operate and yet has not taken any of those reasonable steps to ensure that it is not opening up something that it simply cannot control.