Bill C-9 (Historical)

Jobs and Economic Growth Act

An Act to implement certain provisions of the budget tabled in Parliament on March 4, 2010 and other measures

Part 1 of this enactment implements income tax measures proposed in the March 4, 2010 Budget. In particular, it
(a) introduces amendments to allow a recipient of Universal Child Care Benefit amounts to designate that the amounts be included in the income of the dependant in respect of whom the recipient has claimed an Eligible Dependant Credit, or if the credit is not claimed by the recipient, a child of the recipient who is a qualified dependant under the Universal Child Care Benefit Act;
(b) clarifies rules relating to the Medical Expense Tax Credit to exclude expenses for purely cosmetic procedures;
(c) clarifies rules relating to payments made to a Registered Education Savings Plan or a Registered Disability Savings Plan through a program funded, directly or indirectly, by a province or administered by a province;
(d) implements amendments to the family income thresholds used to determine eligibility for Canada Education Savings Grants, Canada Disability Savings Grants and Canada Disability Savings Bonds;
(e) reinstates the 50% inclusion rate for Canadian residents who have been in receipt of U.S. social security benefits since before January 1, 1996;
(f) extends the mineral exploration tax credit for one year;
(g) reduces the rate of interest payable by the Minister of National Revenue on tax overpayments made by corporations;
(h) modifies the definition “taxable Canadian property” to exclude certain shares and other interests that do not derive their value principally from real or immovable property situated in Canada, Canadian resource property, or timber resource property;
(i) introduces amendments to allow the issuance of a refund of an overpayment of tax under Part I of the Income Tax Act to certain non-residents in circumstances where an assessment of such amounts has been made outside the usual period during which a refund may be made;
(j) repeals the exclusion for indictable tax offences from the proceeds of crime and money laundering regime; and
(k) increases the pension surplus threshold for employer contributions to registered pension plans to 25%.
Part 2 amends the Excise Act, 2001 and the Customs Act to implement an enhanced stamping regime for tobacco products by introducing new controls over the production, distribution and possession of a new excise stamp for tobacco products.
Part 2 also amends the Excise Tax Act and certain related regulations in respect of the Goods and Services Tax/Harmonized Sales Tax (GST/HST) to:
(a) simplify the operation of the GST/HST for the direct selling industry using a commission-based model;
(b) clarify the application of the GST/HST to purely cosmetic procedures and to devices or other goods used or provided with cosmetic procedures, and to services related to cosmetic procedures;
(c) reaffirm the policy intent and provide certainty respecting the scope of the definition of “financial service” in respect of certain administrative, management and promotional services;
(d) address advantages that currently exist in favour of imported financial services over comparable domestic services;
(e) streamline the application of the input tax credit rules to financial institutions;
(f) provide a new, uniform GST/HST rebate system that will apply fairly and equitably to employer-sponsored pension plans;
(g) introduce a new annual information return for financial institutions to improve GST/HST reporting in the financial services sector; and
(h) extend the due date for filing annual GST/HST returns from three months to six months after year-end for certain financial institutions.
In addition, Part 2 amends regulations made under the Excise Tax Act and the Excise Act, 2001 to reduce the interest rate payable by the Minister of National Revenue in respect of overpaid taxes and duties by corporations.
Part 3 amends the Air Travellers Security Charge Act to increase the air travellers security charge that is applicable to air travel that includes a chargeable emplanement on or after April 1, 2010 and for which any payment is made on or after that date. It also reduces the interest payable by the Minister of National Revenue to corporations under that Act.
Part 4 amends the Softwood Lumber Products Export Charge Act, 2006 to provide for a higher rate of charge on the export of certain softwood lumber products from the regions of Ontario, Quebec, Manitoba or Saskatchewan. It also amends that Act to reduce the rate of interest payable by the Minister of National Revenue on tax overpayments made by corporations.
Part 5 amends the Customs Tariff to implement measures announced in the March 4, 2010 Budget to reduce Most-Favoured-Nation rates of duty and, if applicable, rates of duty under other tariff treatments on a number of tariff items relating to manufacturing inputs and machinery and equipment imported on or after March 5, 2010.
Part 6 amends the Federal-Provincial Fiscal Arrangements Act to provide additional payments to certain provinces and to correct a cross-reference in that Act.
Part 7 amends the Expenditure Restraint Act to impose a freeze on the allowances and salaries to be paid to members of the Senate and the House of Commons for the 2010–2011, 2011–2012 and 2012–2013 fiscal years.
Part 8 amends a number of Acts to reduce or eliminate Governor in Council appointments, including the North American Free Trade Agreement Implementation Act. This Part also amends that Act to establish the Canadian Section of the NAFTA Secretariat within the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade. In addition, this Part repeals The Intercolonial and Prince Edward Island Railways Employees’ Provident Fund Act. Finally, this Part makes consequential and related amendments to other Acts.
Part 9 amends the Pension Benefits Standards Act, 1985. In particular, the Act is amended to
(a) require an employer to fully fund benefits if the whole of a pension plan is terminated;
(b) authorize an employer to use a letter of credit, if certain conditions are met, to satisfy solvency funding obligations in respect of a pension plan that has not been terminated in whole;
(c) permit a pension plan to provide for variable benefits, similar to those paid out of a Life Income Fund, in respect of a defined contribution provision of the pension plan;
(d) establish a distressed pension plan workout scheme, under which the employer and representatives of members and retirees may negotiate changes to the plan’s funding requirements, subject to the approval of the Minister of Finance;
(e) permit the Superintendent of Financial Institutions to replace an actuary if the Superintendent is of the opinion that it is in the best interests of members or retirees;
(f) provide that only the Superintendent may declare a pension plan to be partially terminated;
(g) provide for the immediate vesting of members’ benefits;
(h) require the administrator to make additional information available to members and retirees following the termination of a pension plan; and
(i) repeal spent provisions.
Part 10 provides for the retroactive coming into force in Canada of the Agreement on Social Security between Canada and the Republic of Poland.
Part 11 amends the Export Development Act to grant Export Development Canada the authority to establish offices outside Canada. It also clarifies that Corporation’s authority with respect to asset management and the forgiveness of certain debts and obligations.
Part 12 enacts the Payment Card Networks Act, the purpose of which is to regulate national payment card networks and the commercial practices of payment card network operators. Among other things, that Act confers a number of regulation-making powers. This Part also makes related amendments to the Financial Consumer Agency of Canada Act to expand the mandate of the Agency so that it may supervise payment card network operators to determine whether they are in compliance with the provisions of the Payment Card Networks Act and its regulations and monitor the implementation of voluntary codes of conduct.
Part 13 amends the Financial Consumer Agency of Canada Act to provide the Financial Consumer Agency of Canada with a broader oversight role to allow it to verify compliance with ministerial undertakings and directions. The amendments also increase the Agency’s ability to undertake research, including research on trends and emerging consumer protection issues. Finally, the Part makes consequential amendments to other Acts.
Part 14 amends the Proceeds of Crime (Money Laundering) and Terrorist Financing Act to confer on the Minister of Finance the power to issue directives imposing measures with respect to certain financial transactions. The amendments also confer on the Governor in Council the power to make regulations that limit or prohibit certain financial transactions. This Part also makes a consequential amendment to another Act.
Part 15 amends the Canada Post Corporation Act to modify the exclusive privilege of the Canada Post Corporation so as to permit letter exporters to collect letters in Canada for transmittal and delivery outside Canada.
Part 16 amends the Canada Deposit Insurance Corporation Act to allow the Governor in Council to specify when a bridge institution will assume a federal member institution’s deposit liabilities and allow the Canada Deposit Insurance Corporation to make by-laws with respect to information and capabilities it can require of its member institutions. This Part also amends that Act to establish the rules that apply to the assignment, by the Canada Deposit Insurance Corporation to a bridge institution, of eligible financial contracts to which a federal member institution is a party.
Part 17 amends the Bank Act and other related statutes to provide a framework enabling credit unions to incorporate and continue as banks. The model is based on the framework applicable to other federally regulated financial institutions, adjusted to give effect to cooperative principles and governance.
Part 18 authorizes the taking of a number of measures with respect to the reorganization and divestiture of all or any part of Atomic Energy of Canada Limited’s business.
Part 19 amends the National Energy Board Act in order to give the National Energy Board the power to create a participant funding program to facilitate the participation of the public in hearings that are held under section 24 of that Act. It also amends the Nuclear Safety and Control Act to give the Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission the power to create a participant funding program to facilitate the participation of the public in proceedings under that Act and the power to prescribe fees for that program.
Part 20 amends the Canadian Environmental Assessment Act to streamline certain process requirements for comprehensive studies, to give the Canadian Environmental Assessment Agency authority to conduct most comprehensive studies and to give the Minister of the Environment the power to establish the scope of any project in relation to which an environmental assessment is to be conducted. It also amends that Act to provide, in legislation rather than by regulations, that an environmental assessment is not required for certain federally funded infrastructure projects and repeals sunset clauses in the Regulations Amending the Exclusion List Regulations, 2007.
Part 21 amends the Canada Labour Code with respect to the appointment of appeals officers and the appeal hearing procedures.
Part 22 authorizes payments to be made out of the Consolidated Revenue Fund for various purposes.
Part 23 amends the Telecommunications Act to make a carrier that is not a Canadian-owned and controlled corporation eligible to operate as a telecommunications common carrier if it owns or operates certain transmission facilities.
Part 24 amends the Employment Insurance Act to establish an account in the accounts of Canada to be known as the Employment Insurance Operating Account and to close the Employment Insurance Account and remove it from the accounts of Canada. It also repeals sections 76 and 80 of that Act and makes consequential amendments in relation to the creation of the new Account. This Part also makes technical amendments to clarify provisions of the Budget Implementation Act, 2008 and the Canada Employment Insurance Financing Board Act that deal with the Canada Employment Insurance Financing Board.

[Diane Brisebois]

Will we be out of the woods with the passage of Bill C-9? If only it were that straightforward....

I stood at Minister Flaherty's side when he announced the code of conduct, because our members believe the code will go a long way towards providing greater cost certainty. I did so in the full expectation that the code is but the first step and that ultimately regulation will be required.

Retailers have long experience with card company practices, both here and abroad. Already we're seeing some disquieting signs. Some players have been signalling that they intend to delay their acceptance of the code, while others have been pushing merchants to lock in the new contracts before the code takes effect.

More troubling still is that while the government has taken steps to level the playing field and create downward pressure on fees in the debit world, fees in the credit world continue to rise for our members.

One example is the emergence of a new so-called super premium card, which carries fees as high as 3%. With low single-digit profit margins, a 3% fee can take a devastating bite out of merchants' profitability. What we are seeing is a concerted drive by some players to undermine the intent of the code by switching the emphasis over to credit and away from debit.

This was brought home to me recently at the atrium at Toronto's Eaton Centre, in exactly the spot where the Minister of Finance made his announcement less than four weeks ago. Two weeks later, the atrium was taken over by half a dozen peppy salespeople for one of the major banks, along with a dozen instant sign-up screens, all pushing the use of their 2% cashback card.

As you will see from the page we will be circulating later, the pitch is to get people to put daily purchases on their credit cards, items bought at drug stores, grocery stores, and gas stations, all things that people would typically pay for with debit or cash. What is clear is that if the code's new rules on debit cards won't give issuers and card networks the high fees they were hoping for, these actors will steer consumers to use credit cards instead, and they will introduce even more expensive credit products.

From the merchant perspective, the voluntary code will be successful if--and only if--all the players in the card payment system accept the code's underlying principles and do not attempt to sidestep them by other means. We are encouraged by the minister's clear statement that non-compliance will be met with regulation. It would suggest that one very important measure of compliance must be that those who had hoped to drive up fees on debit transactions do not compensate by extracting ever higher amounts from credit transactions.

[Diane Brisebois]

Yes, I'm going to speak in French and English. Thank you.

I am the president and CEO of the Retail Council of Canada.

I also serve as co-chair of the Payments Accountability Council, which represents over 250,000 merchants across the country.

I'm joined today by my colleague, Terrance Oakey.

He is our vice-president of federal government relations.

Last year, RCC appeared before this committee, calling for some of the very measures that are now included in Bill C-9, the budget implementation act.

I want to begin my remarks by thanking this committee for the leadership you continue to show on this issue. Merchants across Canada are following this issue closely. They commend the minister and the Government of Canada for establishing a card payment regulatory framework, and for equipping the Financial Consumer Agency of Canada with the tools it needs to monitor and enforce compliance with the code of conduct changes, changes that are both contained in Bill C-9.

As you may recall, the Retail Council was criticized in some quarters for calling for a regulatory framework, while other witnesses argued that a voluntary code alone would address this issue of skyrocketing fees.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

I call this meeting to order. This is the nineteenth meeting of the Standing Committee on Finance.

I want to thank all our witnesses for being here with us this afternoon. We are continuing our study of Bill C-9, An Act to implement certain provisions of the budget tabled in Parliament on March 4, 2010, pursuant to the order of reference of Monday, April 19, 2010.

We have two hours for this panel. We have six organizations with us here this afternoon: the Air Transport Association of Canada; the Retail Council of Canada; the Tourism Industry Association of Canada; Canada Post Corporation; the Canadian Labour Congress; and the Canadian Printing Industries Association.

Thanks to all of you for coming out today. You each have five minutes for an opening statement. We will proceed in the order listed in terms of organizations, and then we will go to questions from members. We will start with Mr. McKenna.

Are you presenting on behalf of your organization?

[Hubert Thibault]

That causes no problem. We don't object to the principle at all. Moreover, as you so well said, the expression “caisse populaire” is already being used elsewhere than in Quebec, whether it be in Acadia, Manitoba or other places. The Caisses Desjardins have no pre-emptive right to reserve the name “caisse populaire”, on the contrary. Bill C-9 could indeed make it so that a credit union migrates toward the federal jurisdiction and becomes established in Quebec. Whatever the case may be, Desjardins has never wanted to protect its territory in order to oppose this kind of bill, on the contrary.

[Hubert Thibault]

No, not necessarily. The term “coopérative de crédit” has been selected. If we establish a level-two institution, we're asking that it be a commercial bank such as what exists now, before the amendments are even introduced in the context of Bill C-9, and that the term “federal credit union” be used to describe that institution to the extent it would be 100% held by the caisses populaires or credit unions.

[Thomas Mulcair, NDP, Outremont, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

My first question is for Mr. Thibault.

I listened to the answer you gave Mr. Paillé earlier concerning consultation and your answer to Mr. Wallace concerning your support for the principle of the part of Bill C-9 concerning the cooperatives. I just want to make sure I clearly understood.

From what I understood, you're suggesting that we not be able to use the French term “caisse populaire” in the case of a federal institution. Is that in fact your position?

[Dr. Neil Alexander, President, Organization of CANDU Industries]

Good evening. My name is Neil Alexander. I'm the president of the Organization of CANDU Industries.

OCI is an association of about 165 companies, with bases here in Canada, that have an interest in the ongoing health of the nuclear industry here. One of those companies, Laker Energy Products, is represented by its president and owner, Chris Hughes, who's sitting in the audience.

OCI's private sector member companies employ more than 30,000 people directly on nuclear work. They represent a significant proportion of the 70,000 people who owe their livelihoods to the investment by Canada in its nuclear industry.

OCI is an independent organization, and while it works closely with stakeholders and the plant operators, it does not represent their views.

We see a great opportunity for Canada. Canada is one of the few nations that can benefit significantly from the worldwide renaissance in nuclear power. This renaissance will likely lead to a market opportunity of $2 trillion to $3 trillion as between 400 and 600 new reactors are built around the world. The benefit to Canada will arise from sales of CANDU plants into which Canadian companies supply many of the components, as well as the sales of components to the other reactor designs that are built around the world. These components will be built by companies like Laker Energy Products and our other members, and they will create high-quality jobs for skilled workers throughout Ontario and the rest of Canada.

As an example, we see what the Koreans are doing. They have spotted this tremendous opportunity in the nuclear business, and they recently signed their first export order for four units from the United Arab Emirates. Their newspaper celebrated this success by announcing that this single project was worth the same as the export of a million cars, or one hundred and eighty 300,000-tonne supertankers.

I leave you to imagine how beneficial such an announcement would be in Canada in the present economic circumstances. To gain these benefits, Canada needs to remain at the forefront of the technology. We need to continue developing and innovating, and CANDU Inc. has a very important role in ensuring that happens. It is also essential that the existing fleet of CANDUs is properly supported by a team of sufficient size and competence to deal with any arising operational issues.

OCI has been a long-time and consistent supporter of the restructuring of AECL to achieve the objectives that are very clearly defined in Rothschild's investment summary. We agree that CANDU technology has to be properly capitalized to be successful, that the management team of AECL does need a significant injection of commercial capability, and that the sales team at AECL does need a much greater international outreach.

We believe that all of these things can be achieved through seeking an appropriate business partner for the organization, again as specified in the investment summary. We also believe that to gain access to the wave of opportunity that's currently developing, the restructuring needs to be completed promptly. Further delay will likely cripple the opportunities for CANDU sales, as other reactor designs find footholds in new markets and then become entrenched. And of course we're concerned about the issues that Michael Ivanco raised concerning the retention of the high-quality staff at AECL.

Additionally, continuing uncertainty increases the risk of the loss of our talent. We need to maintain them, and we need to retain that talent in companies like Laker Energy Products, which have very highly skilled craftsmen working within their organization.

As a result, we support the language in Bill C-9 and encourage all parties to ensure that AECL is restructured as quickly as possible.

As well as the need to make the decisions promptly, achieving the stated policy objectives is also important. In the investment summary we remind people that there are three policy objectives, five evaluative criteria, and eight desired outcomes. We believe these policy objectives are effectively a contract with the people of Canada and that the government is obligated to deliver on them.

Two of these policy objectives, three of the evaluation criteria, and three desired outcomes are focused entirely on the prospects of the industry, including expanding access to markets and growing jobs in design and engineering.

One policy objective, one of the evaluation criteria, and two desired outcomes are focused entirely on safety and performance.

The issues are complex and we believe that the restructuring team should demonstrate how it is ensuring that these objectives will be met. But we do conclude that the restructuring of AECL has to proceed promptly and that the process should ensure that the policy objectives are met in an optimum way.

Thank you very much.

[Tracy Redies]

For a credit union, the membership list is also the credit union's customer list. The provision in Bill C-9 dealing with membership lists could therefore provide a competitor of a federal credit union with the means of obtaining access to a list of all the credit union's customers. This could be a major impediment to take-up of the federal credit union option.

Fortunately, there is a simple solution, namely to change the rules to correspond to the rules for federal insurance companies, whereby par policyholders and shareholders are not permitted to obtain the list of par policyholders. This is appropriate for policy reasons and also to prevent a competitor from buying shares and using the entitlement to obtain a full list of par policyholders.

[Tracy Redies, President and Chief Executive Officer, Coast Capital Savings Credit Union, Credit Union Central of Canada]

Thank you, David.

Mr. Chair, ladies and gentlemen of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to speak to you today on behalf of the Case for Progress committee. I'm pleased to have the opportunity to offer comments to the members of the House of Commons finance committee regarding part 17 of Bill C-9, which proposes to amend the Bank Act to allow for the establishment of federal credit unions.

Formed in 2006, the Case for Progress committee has been a strong advocate for federal legislation to enable credit unions to expand beyond their provincial boundaries. The committee is comprised of large credit unions interested in developing a national presence, mid-sized credit unions focused on becoming regional financial services providers, and small affinity-based credit unions wanting to serve members of their communities wherever they are located in Canada.

Coast Capital Savings is one of the founding and largest members on the Case for Progress committee, but the diversity of the committee underscores how the option of becoming a federal credit union could appeal to any credit union in the system. The Case for Progress committee applauds the government's decision to allow for the creation of federal credit unions through amendments to the Bank Act, as outlined in Bill C-9. The proposed legislation is a historic milestone that will enhance the strength and stability of the credit union sector and financial services industry as a whole.

The proposed legislation recognizes the hallmarks of a credit union and provides an attractive option for those credit unions interested in expanding outside their province of origin under one national regulatory authority. It will give credit unions the chance to develop greater economies of scale and more competitive cost bases while remaining true to cooperative principles. This, in turn, will allow the development of a wider range of enhanced products and services that credit union members now expect.

Increased competition from federal credit unions will provide Canadian consumers more choice, drive innovation, and lower prices. The charitable sector will also benefit, as credit unions have a proud history of significant involvement and philanthropic investment in the communities where they operate.

While the Case for Progress committee supports the federal credit union charter, we have a concern with regard to a provision dealing with access to membership lists.

[David Phillips, President and Chief Executive Officer, Credit Union Central of Canada]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ladies and gentlemen of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to speak to you today on part 17 of Bill C-9, the Jobs and Economic Growth Act, which proposes, among other things, to amend the Bank Act in order to allow for the establishment of federal credit unions.

My name is David Phillips and I'm president and CEO of Credit Union Central of Canada. Presenting with me today on behalf of the Case for Progress group of credit unions is Tracy Redies, president and CEO of Coast Capital Savings.

In 2009, Canadian Central called upon the federal government to establish a federal charter option for credit unions. We believe that a useful, attractive, accessible and distinctive federal charter would achieve several objectives.

First and foremost, a federal charter would enable those credit unions that wish to do so to reach beyond provincial boundaries and pursue business strategies that are not constrained by provincial regulation. Expanding across provincial borders has become more pressing as the growth and consolidation of the credit union system is approaching the point where the lack of a federal charter option may become a competitive disadvantage for some credit unions and for the credit union sector as a whole.

Credit Union Central of Canada has expressed a preference for establishing federal credit unions under the federal government's existing cooperative financial institutions legislation. However, Canadian Central did not preclude alternative legislative approaches if such legislation could provide a federal charter option for credit unions that meet these conditions.

The federal government has chosen to provide for the establishment of federal credit unions through the Bank Act, and Credit Union Central of Canada supports the enactment of part 17 of Bill C-9 as a good first step towards the establishment of a useful, attractive, accessible, and distinctive federal charter option for credit unions.

While it has many positive features, the placement of the federal credit union charter in the Bank Act does raise some issues of compatibility between the framework proposed for federal credit unions and a number of provisions in the Bank Act that are primarily designed for commercial banks.

The federal credit union legislation, while welcome, is lengthy and complex. For this reason, Canadian Central is still analyzing the proposed amendments. We expect that some issues will result from this analysis that Canadian Central will want to discuss with the Department of Finance at some point in time. These issues include matters such as the granting to members of a federal credit union access to the membership list of that credit union--Ms. Redies will speak to that in just a minute--and the position of the federal credit union in the payments clearing and settlement system.

Canadian Central, nevertheless, wishes to express its support for the enactment of the legislation in Bill C-9 that will provide existing credit unions and those desiring to establish new credit unions with the option to operate under a federal charter. We believe that the proposed legislative framework is a positive step forward in achieving this purpose.

Thank you very much for the opportunity to address you today.

Ms. Redies will now say a few words about the proposed framework.

[Hubert Thibault, Advisory Vice-President, Corporate Affairs and Desjardins Group Management, Desjardins Group]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for your invitation to come and give you our comments on this important legislative measure.

The Mouvement Desjardins hails the initiative that has been tabled before you to permit the recognition and creation of credit unions and caisses populaires under federal jurisdiction. The Mouvement Desjardins understands that it responds—perhaps not completely, which is virtually impossible—to wishes expressed by the credit union system, mainly outside Quebec. Those wishes have been expressed on numerous occasions over the past 15, 20, if not even 30 years. In that sense, the Mouvement Desjardins hails the initiative that is before you today.

Having said that, the Mouvement Desjardins must also say that it is extremely comfortable with the legal framework to which it is currently subject, that is to say the Quebec legislation governing it. We think two aspects in particular are conducive to the success of the Mouvement Desjardins. As a result of them, we are tempted to suggest further improvements to the act before you for the future. They also explain the fact that the Mouvement Desjardins would not be able to use the provisions that Bill C-9 will include in the Bank Act.

First of all, the Mouvement Desjardins is an integrated system of caisses populaires. The possibility of establishing a federation—a league, to use the English term—and pooling powers as well as responsibility for the network is fundamentally important for us. We get the impression that, in a second component of the House of Commons' initiative, that would be something you could consider with interest to permit greater cooperation among the credit unions of Canada, indeed cooperation within the credit unions and the Mouvement Desjardins within Canada.

There is another very distinctive feature of the Quebec legislation. In Quebec, as in many European countries, the constituted general reserve cannot be shared. In the bill before you today, the membership shares have no par value. Consequently, a transfer or migration from a Desjardins caisse populaire under federal jurisdiction would be unimaginable since the share's par value, which has been $5 since the first caisse was founded in December 1900, would overnight become several tens of thousands of dollars. In fact, it would have a value pro-rated to the market value of the entire Desjardins group. So are these are two factors that are very different for us.

When we look at the needs of the Mouvement Desjardins in terms of operations, both in Quebec and the rest of Canada, there is an aspect that is fundamentally important for us, and that is the ability to follow our corporate members who have commercial operations across Canada. The Mouvement Desjardins has been examining this question for a number of years. There is one vehicle which we think is suited to enabling us to render these services to our members, and that is a traditional bank as you know it under the Bank Act.

That said, in the cooperative world in Quebec, as in many other places, the term “bank” has a connotation for our members, in our caisses, which is somewhat shaded by our everyday competitive experience. In fact, if the Mouvement Desjardins had one request to make to the committee or to the federal government in connection with Bill C-9, it would be, if a bank is held solely by caisses populaires or cooperative entities or a mix of caisses populaires and credit unions, that they be able to use the name of federal credit cooperative so that it reflects their cooperative nature.

Thus, a simple amendment could enable the Mouvement Desjardins to better discharge its obligations and better serve its cooperative members.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. That's what we wanted to bring to your attention.

[Richard Lindgren]

That's exactly what happened in the Red Chris Mine situation, and there is nothing in Bill C-9 that would prevent that from happening again. In fact, proposed subsection 15.1(1) of the bill purports to give the minister that very power. That's exactly what our fear is.

[Thomas Mulcair, NDP, Outremont, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

First, I'm going to make a general comment to thank all the environmental groups that have made their presentations here today. They were to the point and extraordinarily clear. They concerned the entirely foreseeable harmful effects of the amendments provided for under Bill C-9. What you said is entirely consistent with my analysis. My friend and colleague Linda Duncan, an NDP member from Alberta, was one of the first to sound the alarm on this subject.

I also want to tell you that your presence here today is essential. Last week, we heard from departmental representatives who tried to stuff our heads. They told us a lot of nonsense about the foreseeable effects of this legislation, and it's scandalous. We are elected members. We agree or we do not agree, we dispute but we do our jobs as best we can. On the other hand, officials, agency leaders, the people who are paid to serve the government—if we literally translated the English term, we could say functionaries—are supposed to be a little more neutral. However, neutrality comes more from your side because you have an enormous amount of experience. You examined the bill and you say it cannot produce the anticipated results.

I also take the liberty of thanking you particularly, Mr. Lindgren, for your comments on what you call “the red herring”. It's true that the feared duplication and overlapping of roles is nonsense.

When I was Quebec's minister of the environment, I had no difficulty signing agreements with the federal government. We brought together two members of the Bureau d'audiences publiques sur l'environnement and a federal government assessor. The results were excellent. The concerns that are expressed in piecemeal fashion by the Canadian right, that all this is too complicated and we have to try to simplify matters for the public, are nonsense and bunkum. It's not true.

What we have before us is an attempt to destroy a system that exists to protect future generations. Earlier I was listening to my friend and colleague Ms. Menzies, who said that last year an attempt was made to improve matters so that infrastructure spending would be done more quickly. In fact, they ruined a 100-year-old act respecting the protection of navigable waterways. That's what they did, period.

Now I want to come back to Mr. Lemelin, from the Canadian Union of Postal Workers. I'd like to ask him whether he received a signal from the Liberal Party. The Bloc Québécois and the New Democratic Party share the idea that Part 15 must simply be deleted from Bill C-9. On the Liberal Party, you have a worthy representative of the left wing in Mr. Pacetti, of the centre in Mr. MacKay and of the extreme right in Ms. Hall Findlay. This will depend on the group that wins the internal battle. That's why I would like to know whether the people from the Liberal Party told you whether they were going to support you in the effort to delete Part 15 from the bill.

[Stephen Hazell]

My name was mentioned, so I think I should have an opportunity to respond.

First of all, Mr. Menzies, I'm glad you're an environmentalist, because you live in a very special part of the world. I hope you will be able to support the Sierra Club in getting the Andy Russell Park established in Castle-Crown. We'll just leave it at that.

Neither the Sierra Club nor Ecojustice has ever supported any of the amendments in Bill C-9, and there are a number of movable pieces in this. We all want the most efficient and effective law we can get, but we need to look at it comprehensively. We can't come at it with piecemeal, ad hoc, quick-and-dirty types of amendments, which this committee is being asked to sanction.

There are lots of good ideas on the table, but let's take some time, deliberate, have some public involvement engagement, have some considered review by the parliamentary committee that has the most expertise in this matter, I would submit, and do it that way.

[Daniel Paillé, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

With regard to Bill C-9, if this was a minority government and there was an opposition with backbone—some opposition parties have backbone—we could continue by saying we are in favour of it and that we agree to withdraw Part 15. However, we aren't sure that everyone will agree with us that Part 15 should be withdrawn.

One of the reasons why you're opposed to it is that Canada Post's mandate is to distribute the mail at the same rate, regardless of whether you are in downtown Montreal or in the confines of a very remote region in Canada. This is somewhat like Hydro-Quebec's situation. It's national and, as a Crown corporation, it can't bill the Magdalen Islands at a different rate from the one it charges in downtown Montreal. We understand that.

You mentioned that there has been lobbying. The people from the Department of the Environment told us that too, in view of the fact that none of the environmentalists here before us were consulted. What lobbyists could make us swallow this postal mess? Can the people from the Department of the Environment—perhaps Mr. Lindgren could do it—identify the lobbyists that would be strong enough to have bills passed amending all this, in an omnibus bill that has nothing to do with us? Which, if the official opposition had backbone, could even risk bringing down the government? Who are these super strong people?