This bill was last introduced in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session, which ended in September 2013.
Peter MacKay Conservative
This bill has received Royal Assent and is now law.
This is from the published bill.
This enactment amends provisions of the National Defence Act governing the military justice system. The amendments, among other things,
(a) provide for security of tenure for military judges until their retirement;
(b) permit the appointment of part-time military judges;
(c) specify the purposes, objectives and principles of the sentencing process;
(d) provide for additional sentencing options, including absolute discharges, intermittent sentences and restitution;
(e) modify the composition of a court martial panel according to the rank of the accused person; and
(f) modify the limitation period applicable to summary trials and allow an accused person to waive the limitation periods.
The enactment also sets out the Canadian Forces Provost Marshal’s duties and functions and clarifies his or her responsibilities. It also changes the name of the Canadian Forces Grievance Board to the Military Grievances External Review Committee.
Finally, it makes amendments to the delegation of the Chief of the Defence Staff’s powers as the final authority in the grievance process and makes consequential amendments to other Acts.
All sorts of information on this bill is available at LEGISinfo, an excellent resource from the Library of Parliament. You can also read the full text of the bill.
The Deputy Speaker
The Chair gets to determine whether the person gets to stand up or not.
The hon. member for Lac-Saint-Louis, if he wishes to respond.
Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC
Mr. Speaker, I am quite shocked by the incivility of that comment, quite frankly.
The government talks a good game about standing up for the military, yet when it comes to crunch time, it just will not give the military the rights it deserves. We saw what Conservatives did with the last ombudsman for veterans. I would remind the member that veterans are part of the military community and that they can be included in any discussion we have in the House about the military. We should not be ashamed to talk about veterans when we are talking about the Canadian Armed Forces.
We saw that the government had to be pushed to the wall to do something to replenish the Last Post Fund.
Strengthening Military Justice in the Defence of Canada ActGovernment Orders
Conservative
Dean Del Mastro Conservative Peterborough, ON
Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order.
By way of clarification, the member who asked the question is a veteran.
The Deputy Speaker
That was not a point of order.
Questions and comments, the hon. member for Winnipeg North.
Kevin Lamoureux Liberal Winnipeg North, MB
Mr. Speaker, I too am a member who served in the Canadian Armed Forces, in case the member wants to be aware of that fact.
It is interesting that the Conservatives and the New Democrats are working together. I do not know how the government hoodwinked the New Democrats into supporting this. Many would suggest that this uneasy coalition is maybe getting a little easier. The member talked about the politics of division. He should reflect on what his leader said about western Canada and the Dutch disease and so forth. That is politics of division.
The Liberal leader provides strong leadership across Canada from coast to coast to coast and deals with issues that are affecting the middle class.
Does the member believe that the Conservatives would better serve members of the Canadian Armed Forces had they had a more open mind in making changes to the legislation that would have dealt with a number of issues the Liberal Party has raised? Would there be a higher sense of fairness to those individuals who are serving in the Canadian Armed Forces today? If only Conservatives had listened a little more to a good Liberal like—
Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC
Mr. Speaker, it is obvious. If only the Conservatives listened a little more to the Liberals, yes, we would have better legislation in the House.
I also have an explanation as to why the NDP is getting closer to the government on this bill. When one is driving a car and wants to veer a little bit one way, sometimes one overshoots. We have a party that is moving from the left toward the centre but has overshot a little bit too much. Now it finds itself in league with the Conservative government.
If the member's government really cared about veterans, why would it be closing down one of the best hospitals in Canada for veterans, Ste. Anne's Hospital in Sainte-Anne-de-Bellevue, in my riding? Why will it not stand up for veterans in the West Island of Montreal?
Mathieu Ravignat NDP Pontiac, QC
Mr. Speaker, I am a little bit confused about what liberalism is at this point.
Half of what you guys stand for would not be in your party platform if you had—
The Deputy Speaker
Order, please. I draw the attention of the member for Pontiac that his comments are to be made to the Chair, not to other members of the House.
Mathieu Ravignat NDP Pontiac, QC
Mr. Speaker, it is hard to resist. Thank you for that call to order.
One only needs to look at the Mackenzie years, the Pearson years and the Trudeau years to see how much liberalism has to account for. They were borrowing ideas from social democrats.
That having been said, what we did was present clear, well-thought-out amendments. These amendments had influence on the party in power and things were changed. That is because we get things done. I would like to ask my Liberal colleague to point to their contribution to this debate.
Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC
Mr. Speaker, let me tell the hon. member, through you, Chair, that the Liberal Party of Canada predates the NDP. If the member wants to know what the Liberal Party of Canada has contributed to Canada, I would advise him to read the wonderful biography of Sir Wilfrid Laurier.
Christine Moore NDP Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC
Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to speak to Bill C-15 at third reading. The bill seeks to strengthen military justice.
As some members know, I serve on the Standing Committee on National Defence. For obvious reasons, I have been following the debate surrounding this bill closely. As some members also know, I am a former member of the military. In my opinion, the military justice system is a really important part of the Canadian Armed Forces, but it can be difficult to understand. Discipline is crucial and requires a unique justice system. The goal is to strengthen the Canadian Armed Forces' operational capability.
I would like to mention that it is important for our men and women in uniform that we take this seriously and carefully study legislation that will apply to them. They make incredible personal and social sacrifices for our country. It is essential that we try to provide them with the best military justice system possible.
Clearly, justice systems are complex. We are not talking about new paint colours; we are talking about a justice system, which is extremely complex. Sometimes, there is no perfect solution, and sometimes it is too complicated to find the one solution that will fit and make everything work.
When the bill was debated at second reading, one of the first things my colleague from St. John's East, the official opposition's defence critic, said was that an amendment passed when Bill C-41 was being studied had not been included in this bill.
A minority government was in power when Bill C-41 was being studied. It had no choice but to work with the other parties. A consensus was reached about Bill C-41, which, at the time, had support from all the parties. Unfortunately, the Conservatives prorogued Parliament. Bill C-41 was not voted on at third reading.
In his speech, my colleague from St. John's East emphasized, as I did, that the proposed amendment to Bill C-41 would have lengthened the list of offences eligible for summary trial under the National Defence Act. It would have increased the number of offences that would not result in a criminal record. The Minister of National Defence promised that the parliamentary secretary would bring that amendment back to the Standing Committee on National Defence during the study of the bill, and that is what he did. The amendment was passed.
Because of that amendment, Bill C-15 was improved at the committee stage.
Since we are talking about amendments, I will quickly point out that the Conservatives proposed only that amendment and one other to correct a date. That is all.
For its part, the NDP proposed 22 amendments and five subamendments that were rejected in committee. Still, we did our work, we studied the bill and we proposed amendments to improve it.
I believe that we demonstrated our support for our men and women in uniform. We showed that this bill was important to us, that it was important to study and improve it. Unfortunately, our amendments were rejected, but at least the Conservatives' amendment was passed, which improved the bill. I do not think that amendment would have gone through without the persistence of my colleague from St. John's East and all NDP members.
Although this was a Conservative amendment in the beginning, it is important to understand that it was made because of the NDP's work.
Before I go into more detail about criminal records resulting from convictions at summary trials, I would like to briefly mention that the Liberal Party did not propose any amendments in committee. I think that this is an important bill and that we must at least try to improve it. Nevertheless, the Liberals did not put forward any amendments.
A quick look at the record shows that the Liberal Party did not have anything to say when this bill was examined clause by clause or during the votes. We also see that no Liberal members voted during the recorded votes.
In my opinion, this serious issue deserved careful examination. I think that it is unfortunate that all parties in the House did not show the same commitment to our men and women in uniform. That is what I wanted to say about what happened in committee.
I would like to deal more specifically with the issue of criminal records resulting from convictions at summary trials. Clause 75 was amended to expand the list of offences included in the National Defence Act that can be dealt with by summary trial and that will not result in a criminal record following a conviction.
Right now, 95% of summary trial convictions are exempt from a criminal record, which leaves only 5% of people who can end up with a criminal record even though they would not necessarily have one for a similar offence in civilian life. At least things are improving.
It is important to understand that the issue of summary trials and criminal records is extremely complex. On one hand, summary trials are known to be efficient and they make it possible to deal with cases quickly. On the other hand, we also know that the rules of law for these summary trials are not followed.
For example, we would not want soldiers to be exempt from receiving a criminal record for offences that would have resulted in a record in the civilian world. However, we also would not want soldiers to have criminal records for offences that would not have resulted in a record in the civilian world. We need to find a balance. The issue of military justice is therefore extremely complex.
What is more, the National Defence Act is somewhat problematic in the sense that certain offences are very broad in scope and can include both very serious crimes and offences that are more benign. That is part of the reason why I wanted to make subamendments in this regard when we examined this bill in committee.
In the case of a demotion, the individual could still end up with a criminal record. It only makes sense that someone who commits a serious offence should be demoted. It would not be possible for a new recruit, who cannot be demoted, but it would be possible for all of the other ranks. If the offence is serious enough, the person should logically be demoted and the soldier would therefore have a criminal record.
I would like to talk about some sections that are very broad, such as section 113, which deals with fires. The problem is that section 113 of the National Defence Act covers a wide range of offences related to fires, whether those fires are caused wilfully or otherwise.
Here is an example of an accidental fire. A recruit could be tired when he is on training in the countryside, and he may not necessarily have any camping experience, any experience being in the forest or any life experience to rely on in this situation.
I mention this because it is something I have experience with. He could mistakenly put kerosene instead of naphtha in the stove. This could cause a fire. This person is not doing so wilfully or for the purpose of hurting the Canadian Forces. He is simply tired and is not following directions, yet it is all the same offence. If someone wilfully burned down a building, he would be charged with the same thing, and section 113 on causing fires would apply. These two people would have criminal records when they leave the Canadian Forces. However, everyone at home understands that these two situations are drastically different.
That is why this issue is so complicated. We understand that someone who wilfully causes a fire in civilian life would have a criminal record. Logically, we do not want this person to be exempt from having a criminal record. However, we would also want this person to have a trial that observes the rules of law. We cannot give someone a criminal record if the rules of law are not observed. The issue was examined from this perspective.
Also, someone who accidentally made a blunder would have a criminal record too. I assume the fines would not be the same for the two offences and that the punishment would fit the crime. We need to understand that the same section can in fact mean two different things.
Another section was rather odd. It had to do with setting a prisoner free without authority or helping a prisoner escape. That may seem odd, but in clause 75, under the Conservative amendment, escaping from prison does not warrant a criminal record. However, if you help someone escape, you can have a criminal record. I think it is a little unclear. It makes no sense that the person who escapes has no criminal record.
An unauthorized release or helping someone escape can also include involuntary actions. If someone who is very tired does not properly lock a door, the action was not voluntary. The person had no intention of letting the prisoner escape, but they made an error. Of course people should be punished for the error, but should they have a criminal record? Twenty years later, if they have a job interview, a potential employer will see the criminal record and may or may not ask why. That is the problem. At least, if the employer asks why the candidate has a criminal record, the person will be able to explain what happened and how the military justice system works. Perhaps that might not be such a problem, but the potential employer will not necessarily ask the person to explain why they have a criminal record in their file. The details of the story are not recorded. That is why I felt these subamendments were important.
I want to say once again that there has been an improvement because 95% of the cases are covered. This is a very complex issue. It is very difficult to come up with a perfect solution. We must focus on the fact that there has been change for the better, and that the provisions have been expanded considerably, which means that the NDP will support this bill.
Naturally, there will be more work to do as we continue to improve the military justice system. All parliamentarians want to improve it, or at least I hope they do. Improving the military justice system is of great importance for our men and women in uniform. I am hopeful that we will continue to try to make improvements, to find the flaws and to make good laws to correct them. This is a complex issue, and it is important that we address it for the sake of our military personnel.
I spent a great deal of time talking about criminal records. I would now like to briefly speak again about potential interference from the Vice Chief of the Defence Staff into military investigations.
I would just like to say that interference can be defined in different ways. It is important to understand that we must make a distinction. For example, someone from command could tell investigators that, for operational reasons, it is not the right time for an investigation. In that case, there is no interference in the investigation. They are simply saying that it is not safe to be investigating at that time, and that the investigation could be carried out at another time. That is not the same as really interfering in a case. It is important to make that distinction because there has been a lot of hearsay and misunderstanding about this subject. It is important to make that clear.
I have worked very hard on this bill in committee, and I am very interested in hearing my colleague's questions and comments. I will be happy to respond.
Kevin Lamoureux Liberal Winnipeg North, MB
Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the fact that the member has served in the Canadian Forces. It is a wonderful thing to have done.
I have one question for her. If she reflects back on the importance of having fairness in our judicial system, including military justice, she would likely be aware that there are summary trials. Summary trials in the Canadian Forces do not provide the same rights as are provided in the civil system. For example, there is no right to counsel, no right to an appeal, and transcripts are not even provided.
My question for the member is this: would she agree with Liberals that during summary trials, members of the Canadian Forces should be able to have counsel, the ability to appeal and access to transcripts? Does she see those things as important in trying to narrow the gap between civilian and military justice?
Christine Moore NDP Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC
Mr. Speaker, the context must be taken into account.
If we are talking about a summary trial in which a guilty verdict could lead to a criminal record, it is important to respect the rule of law and give people the right to appeal. However, if we are talking about the summary trial process that was expanded considerably and will not lead to a criminal record, that is altogether different.
Indeed, these summary trials were designed specifically so that people can be tried quickly, so that military forces can go on to the next thing and quickly return to operational status. Since there is no potential impact on the soldier's life when he leaves the military and the impact is limited to the military aspect, that is understandable.
For instance, if someone works as a nurse and does something wrong, their employer could put a note on their record. There is no transcription of what happened and there are no lawyers involved. The note would simply stay on the employee's civilian work record, so to speak.
The nuances of these rules of law need to be established based on potential consequences. This is particularly problematic when the defendant could end up with a criminal record, does not have access to a lawyer and has no right to appeal and when there is no transcription.
Marjolaine Boutin-Sweet NDP Hochelaga, QC
Mr. Speaker, I have no military experience, but since my colleague has a lot of experience, I would like to ask her a question.
I see that, in summary trials, the judge is the accused person's commanding officer. Could that not lead to a conflict of interest? Has she seen that type of situation before?
