Bill S-10 (Historical)

Prohibiting Cluster Munitions Act

An Act to implement the Convention on Cluster Munitions

This enactment implements Canada’s commitments under the Convention on Cluster Munitions. In particular, it establishes prohibitions and offences for certain activities involving cluster munitions, explosive submunitions and explosive bomblets.

Prohibiting Cluster Munitions Act

[Lois Brown, Conservative, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to advise the member that our party has been a strong leader on this file. We have taken the steps to put in place the ratification of this convention. Canada was one of the first countries to sign on.

I would like to read exactly what it says in the framework for the member. It says it will establish

...a framework for co-operation and assistance to ensure adequate care and rehabilitation to survivors and their communities, clearance of contaminated areas, risk reduction education and destruction of stockpiles.

It also requires countries that are States Parties to this convention to establish a way forward for victim assistance. Article 5 talks specifically about the countries establishing a budget and developing a plan for assisting these very victims who have been harmed.

We want to see these cluster munitions eradicated. We want them disposed of. We want to see them destroyed. We want to take a very active hold on this file and get this done.

[Kirsty Duncan, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank the member for bringing out some of what happens with these munitions, but I will provide more information.

One cluster munition contains enough submunitions to cover an area the size of two to four football fields. In Laos the United States dropped, on average, an entire planeload of munitions every eight minutes for nine years.

Cluster munitions have been used in at least 30 countries and areas. There are 34 countries known to have produced over 210 different types of air-dropped and surface-launched cluster munitions, and tens of thousands of civilians worldwide have been killed or injured by cluster munitions.

My question is this: why is the government weakening the bill and weakening the spirit of the convention?

[Lois Brown, Conservative, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I would say to my colleague that Canada has been a leader in getting this convention in place. We were one of the first ones to sign on to it.

The things she has said are absolutely horrific. We agree. That is the very reason we want to get this convention signed. That is the very reason why we want to get this piece of legislation through, because Canada wants to ratify this convention.

We want to be the strong leaders in the globe and to say that the world needs to be rid of these kinds of munitions. They need to be eradicated. Canada is a strong leader. We will continue with that leadership.

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Peace River, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate my colleague's thoughtful speech. It was actually a reflection on what exactly has happened. Obviously Canada was one of the first countries to sign on to the convention.

Canada has undertaken its responsibility the way that Canadians would expect: that it be responsible and be a proactive member in ensuring that these types of things are dealt with in the international community.

There are two things I would like to have the parliamentary secretary reflect on. First, I would like her to reflect on Canada's history when it comes to these particular munitions.

Second, I would also like the parliamentary secretary to reflect on what our allies are doing. Obviously we have heard members opposite wax eloquent on different aspects of the problems with these types of munitions. I am wondering how Canada's response resembles what has been done by other countries, such as the United Kingdom and Australia.

[Lois Brown, Conservative, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

Mr. Speaker, our allies are working in concert with us, because they too, the United Kingdom and Australia, have done the same. These are the allies we work with in many situations with our military, and they are on side with us. They want to see cluster munitions eradicated from the world.

I would like to read from the very beginning of what this convention says. It is what Canada is signing on to. It says we are:

...deeply concerned that civilian populations and individual civilians continue to bear the brunt of armed conflict

and that we are

...determined to put an end for all time to the suffering and casualties caused by cluster munitions...concerned that cluster munition remnants kill or maim civilians...deeply concerned also at the dangers presented by the large national stockpiles...believing it necessary to contribute effectively to an efficient, coordinated manner to resolving the challenge....

These are the kinds of things that we and our allies are signing on to. We want to see these cluster munition stockpiles disposed of. We want to be a leader, and Canada is doing that through this legislation.

[Elizabeth May, Green, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I could not agree more with my hon. friend from Newmarket—Aurora that this convention is extremely important. Canada did sign on early, and that is why I am baffled. Maybe she could explain to me why there are these carve-outs.

I am looking at page 7 of the bill, subclause 11(3). It is not related to the movement of cluster munitions for the purpose of destroying them; that is a different section. This section says that earlier prohibitions do not apply to a person in the course of military co-operation or combined military operations involving Canada and a state not a party to the convention—which would include, for instance, the United States—for “aiding, abetting or counselling another person to commit any act referred to in paragraph 6(a) to (d) if it would not be an offence for that other person to commit that act”.

In other words, it looks to me as though we have a carve-out here that lets Canada help the United States invest in cluster munitions, use cluster munitions and transfer them in shared co-operative action.

If we are to adhere to the convention, should we not remove subsection 11(3) so that it is clear that we are not speaking out of both sides of our mouth?

[Lois Brown, Conservative, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

Mr. Speaker, in a perfect world I suppose that is what we would all want, but we have to live in reality, and the reality is that the United States is our closest ally. We work very closely with the Americans in many military operations, and we do not want to see our Canadian Armed Forces charged with a criminal offence because they are working with our partners and doing what we have asked them to do.

We have said very clearly that Canadian Armed Forces would not be commanding the use of cluster munitions. We have been very strict with that, but we also have to live in reality.

Is this a perfect world? Absolutely not, but this is a starting point. It is perhaps not perfect, but it is certainly a step in the right direction. As we have said throughout this, we will continue to urge other parties around the globe to participate in this convention and to rid the world of these terrible munitions.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Mr. Speaker, cluster bombs are morally and ethically reprehensible. They are inhumane. There can be no prevarication. There can be no qualifying of our condemnation. We should be absolute and thorough in our condemnation. We should not dedicate two whole pages of the enabling legislation to provide an exit strategy, an out, a loophole that we can drive a truck through to, where we can do anything in terms of handling, enabling, aiding and abetting. As my colleague from Saanich—Gulf Islands pointed out, subsection 3 is a road map for how to continue using cluster bombs.

The Parliamentary Secretary over there was the chief apologist, a champion of cluster bombs, it would seem. He was the number one apologist for justifying when and where they are applicable and necessary. That is not the tone we want to set in the Canadian House of Commons.

[Lois Brown, Conservative, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

Mr. Speaker, as I said, we do not live in a perfect world. We have a responsibility, as the Canadian Parliament, to take a step forward to ensure that we do what we can in Canada to make sure the world is rid of this terrible ordnance. Therefore, we are taking a leadership role. We will continue to urge other parties to be signatories to this convention as we show leadership in our own House.

[Francine Raynault, NDP, Joliette, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I will share my speaking time with the member for Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine.

In 1997, Canada distinguished itself on the world stage by hosting the meetings on the Convention on the Prohibition of the Use, Stockpiling, Production and Transfer of Anti-Personnel Mines and on their Destruction.

Those important meetings led to the signing of the Ottawa treaty, which made it possible to reduce the number of innocent civilian victims during and after military conflicts. The treaty concerned anti-personnel mines, but there is another threat to which Canada could respond with genuine leadership: cluster munitions.

It is a brilliant invention: deploy a bomb that deploys hundreds of bomblets. Why not just deploy a bigger, more accurate bomb? That is true military genius. The bomblets, which do not explode immediately, cover an area the size of four football fields and are transformed into anti-personnel mines. Some of our soldiers are injured by those mines.

On initial impact, 98% of the victims of cluster munitions are civilians. As the bomblets are very colourful and remain in place for years after the bombing, children are the most common victims following a military conflict.

If Canada has committed to opposing anti-personnel mines, why has it done nothing tangible to combat this inhuman invention? My position on this issue is clear. I am opposed to Bill S-10 and I am going to show how it does nothing to assist in controlling cluster munitions. When I see these bomblets, I think of our children and of my grandchildren, who could be seriously injured or killed by them.

Even more so since the aim of this bill appears to be to facilitate their use.

The 2008 Oslo treaty became the next logical step after the Ottawa treaty since its purpose was to prohibit cluster munitions. Several of the greatest weapons-producing countries, such as China, the United States and Russia, decided not to take part in the Oslo process. Unfortunately, it appears that Canada bowed to American lobbyists to ensure the plan would not be successful.

Unlike the United States, Canada took part in the Oslo process. Rather than refuse to participate, it managed to negotiate the inclusion of an article permitting ongoing military interoperability with states not party to the convention in the final text of the convention. This loophole in article 21 of the convention makes it possible for a signatory country to tolerate the status quo. It goes without saying that the scope of the Oslo process was dramatically reduced.

The idea of an act to implement the convention is an excellent one, but what we have here more closely resembles an insurance policy for the military-industrial complex. Considering that the position the government has adopted is largely modelled on that of the United States, it is fair to ask what has happened to Canada's sovereignty.

What will the Conservatives say? That this is good for the economy? What economy? What will they say to the 50,000 victims of cluster munitions in Laos, who are poor people and mostly civilians?

I also wonder what arguments the Conservatives will offer our soldiers returning from Afghanistan injured as a result of the use of this icon of human technical knowledge.

I thought the Conservatives were tough on crime, but I am disappointed they have chosen to be soft on humanitarian international law, which cluster munitions violate outright.

That law includes the principle of distinction, which requires weapons to be directed at combatants with a certain degree of accuracy. I should point out that 98% of victims in this instance are civilians.

The principle of humanity is also violated by cluster munitions because they cause enormous, long-lasting damage to the natural environment.

In addition, between 5% and 40% of sub-munitions do not explode on initial deployment and are guaranteed to cause losses following a conflict.

Lastly, there are the principles of prohibition of superfluous injury and unnecessary suffering. Following combat, a site infested with cluster munitions causes even more harm to innocent victims, very many of them children who may not even have been born at the time of the conflict.

However, what is the point of reminding people that these weapons are so inhumane, the Conservatives introduced a bill to prohibit them? To put it simply, perhaps the purpose of this bill is not really to prohibit them.

Instead of implementing the convention, Bill S-10 instead affirms that the Conservatives have chosen their camp, the camp of needless slaughter.

Tough on crime? Pro-life? Really?

This is laughable. These are nothing but slogans that fail to conceal the fact that the Conservatives are soft when it really counts. Instead I see a narrow-minded group of people bowing to U.S. demands so they do not have to face their own consciences.

I am not alone in thinking so. The former prime minister of Australia, Malcolm Fraser, said it was a pity the current Canadian government did not provide any real leadership to the world on cluster munitions. He added that its approach was timid, inadequate and regressive.

The Conservatives have long since chosen to act as lackeys to the great powers, and their fawning will eventually deflate their image as tough guys. This applies to climate change and the tar sands, the Canadian economy, which they are shamelessly undermining, and now Canada’s international reputation.

But they will not drag us down when they fall. Canada is big enough and strong enough to show them the door quickly.

People will say I am using a broad brush, but in my opinion, this bill says a great deal about how this government operates with respect to legislation. They do things in a hurry, they are lazy, and they only want to please their friends. Bill S-10 is no small matter, but we have very little time in which to discuss it.

Earl Turcotte, former coordinator of the mine action program at DFAIT, led the Canadian delegation that negotiated the convention. He resigned when the government tried to impose a weak enabling act, saying that the proposed law was the worst of all the laws passed by countries that had so far ratified or signed the Convention. The worst! Not the second-worst, the best of the not bad, or the fourteenth, but the worst.

With that, I believe I have nothing more to add, except that the disproportionate zeal this government puts into the funding or promotion of its party might better be put into a healthy approach to legislation. Laws require time and study, and their objectives should be to help people. It is not enough to spend a few hours discussing such an important bill. Above all, it should not be said that this is to protect children.

These are all targets that Bill S-10 fails to hit, because this is a law that is as disastrous as a cluster munition.

I hope the members opposite understand that there will be collateral damage.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Foreign Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member talked about clause 11 of Bill S-10, and I wonder if she could take us through it. I would like her to be very specific on the related provisions in the Australian legislation and the United Kingdom legislation, and tell us, in her opinion, in a very detailed way, how those provisions differ in terms of interoperability with the provisions of clause 11 in Bill S-10. I would like specific answers to those questions.

[Francine Raynault, NDP, Joliette, QC]

Mr. Speaker, that was such a long question it can hardly be answered.

The New Democrats fully supported the development of a treaty to ban cluster munitions. However, this bill undermines the convention instead of ensuring its implementation. What does the government have to say to that?

[Kirsty Duncan, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

Mr. Speaker, again, 34 countries are known to have produced over 210 different types of air-dropped cluster munitions and surface-launched cluster munitions.

At least 13 countries have transferred over 50 types of cluster munitions to least 60 other countries. Billions of cluster bombs are currently stockpiled by some 78 countries worldwide, and around half of these countries have now agreed to destroy them.

On average, 25% of civilian casualties are children, and in some areas it is more than 50%. The children are attracted to them because they are small and are in curious shapes.

Cluster munitions are an indiscriminate weapon intended to main, cripple and kill. Why is the government weakening the law and the spirit of the convention?

[Francine Raynault, NDP, Joliette, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for her excellent question.

Why is the government weakening this law? The question should perhaps be put to the Conservatives. I cannot in fact answer the question, because I cannot get into the minds of the Conservatives. However, I can say that I find all this quite simply a pity. When I read the bill, I thought about my eight grandchildren. Some of us have children, and we would not want those bombs to be anywhere near us.

[Sadia Groguhé, NDP, Saint-Lambert, QC]

Mr. Speaker, first, I would like to congratulate my colleague on her speech. Of course, she spoke of the fact that 98% of civilian victims are casualties of these cluster bombs. She pointed out that these munitions lack any precision as to their targets. Because of that, casualties occur even after the conflict has ended.

I would like to ask my colleague for her comments on this state of affairs. She touched on it in her speech, but I would like her to give us more details about her opposition to the bill.