Bill C-10 (Historical)

Tackling Contraband Tobacco Act

An Act to amend the Criminal Code (trafficking in contraband tobacco)

This enactment amends the Criminal Code to create a new offence of trafficking in contraband tobacco and to provide for minimum penalties of imprisonment for repeat offenders.

Tackling Contraband Tobacco Act

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Mr. Speaker, coming from Hamilton, in the 1950s and 1960s, we had some experience with organized crime. I will not go down that road, but there are a lot of stories that can be told.

From my generation, out of nine friends, I was the only one who did not smoke. If we went to a restaurant, everybody smoked. It was in every place. However, we have made very significant gains against tobacco usage.

If we are going to undertake this in an appropriate way, there have to be more resources for our police departments. When they dealt with gangs in Hamilton, there was a particular group of police officers dedicated to that. Now we see teenagers with hockey bags full of tobacco going through our apartment buildings in Hamilton. In order to address that, the police will need more resources.

I would like to ask the member for Gatineau if, in her conversations with the government, that discussion took place.

[Françoise Boivin, NDP, Gatineau, QC]

Mr. Speaker, yes, it did take place. That is exactly the conversation I was having, and I was kind of reproached by the Minister of Canadian Heritage and Official Languages. The fact that they need more money is a reality.

If we want to address the issue, we have to do it right. One way would be to create an infraction in the Criminal Code. Another way would be to make sure that kids realize that it is not good to smoke.

A concern I have right now is that people say that there was a considerable drop in the number of tobacco users for a time, but that number is on the rise again. I am not sure whether others feel the same way, but when we look at American television right now, there is a lot of smoking on a lot of shows. Maybe it is silly to say so, but there was a time when we did not see smoking on television any more. It was not cool.

Fans of Mad Men may have noticed that practically every character on that show smokes at every turn. The show is set in another time. I watch Law and Order: SVU and other shows and we see people smoking. I guess as a former smoker myself I tend to notice these things. All of these things seem to make it okay again to smoke. In fact, young people are starting to smoke again.

Contraband cigarettes are cheap and easy to get. People have access to a product that we all know is dangerous. Indeed, something must be done about this.

[The Deputy Speaker, Joe Comartin]

Resuming debate, the hon. member for Winnipeg North. I would advise the member that he will only have about four minutes before we move on to statements by members.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Mr. Speaker, the Liberal Party supports the passage of this bill, but we also recognize that there are more things that we could be doing to improve the environment with respect to the negative impacts of contraband cigarettes or smoking.

Let me approach it from a different way. Back in 1988, when I was first elected to a provincial legislature, budget after budget would come through with increases to cigarette taxes. There is a strong correlation: the higher the cost of cigarettes, the more people are inclined to quit smoking. Often I would hear, “The government is increasing the price of tobacco. I'm going to quit smoking. This is my last pack. I'm going to save that money that I would be spending in taxes and put it toward something else.” We did see significant decreases.

Contraband cigarettes have been counter to the government's attempt to decrease the population's involvement in purchasing tobacco and smoking.

At one time when I was first elected I would argue that the government used tobacco tax as a revenue generation. It was all about money coming in. What we find is that smoking costs society far more than we could ever possibly generate in terms of tobacco tax. We do not get anywhere near as much money in taxes as we spend on things such as health care. In Manitoba alone, hundreds of millions of dollars is spent annually on health. Nationwide, we are probably talking well into the billions of dollars in terms of the negative impacts of tobacco.

If we take a look at those negative impacts today, the issue goes beyond health. There are public safety issues, such as organized crime, which has gotten hold of this issue and is making millions of dollars of revenue every year to be used for other aspects of crime. It is used to complement things such as drugs, prostitution, and all sorts of other issues that are brought into this whole area.

We can and should be doing more. These elements of public safety, of health, and of lost revenue have all had a profound impact on Canadians from coast to coast to coast. Therefore, when we take a look at this bill, what we see is a step in the right direction. There are some concerns that we have with respect to judicial independence, for example, but there are other issues and as such we could have done so much more. We ask the government to look at the bigger picture in terms of what else it can be doing to deal not only with contraband cigarettes but also with some of those other crimes that are being factored in in terms of organized crime.

Those are my comments. I will not be continuing on after question period.

[The Deputy Speaker, Joe Comartin]

If the member does want to continue on, he would have another sixteen and a half minutes.

The House resumed consideration of the motion that Bill C-10, An Act to amend the Criminal Code (trafficking in contraband tobacco), be read the third time and passed.

[The Deputy Speaker, Joe Comartin]

The hon. member for Winnipeg North has 16.5 minutes left in his speech.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I especially appreciate the .5, I must say.

I can assure the House that I am not going to spend that much time on the bill. I do want to conclude with a few brief remarks to highlight the fact that we in the Liberal Party are prepared to support the bill as reported today. We do have some concerns in relation to it, but all in all it is a significant step forward.

Having said that, I want to highlight an important issue that I believe is of concern to people in my constituency of Winnipeg North and a number of regions of the country where there are a lot of similarities. That is the importance of looking at the broader impact of contraband and how it is used within criminal organizations.

Contraband has been found to be highly profitable by organized crime and gangs. As a result, this has added to the problems. Contraband seriously impacts communities throughout Canada, and I want to emphasize how important it is that we deal with it.

Contraband cigarettes are just one part of it. Selling illegal drugs, and prostitution are other elements that provide a major source of revenue for gangs and organized crime. We need to do more to deal with this problem, and we are looking to the government today to take some action. We have a piece of legislation in front of us that would hopefully have an impact. I suspect it will to a certain degree. We are asking the government to do even more to deal with the issue of contraband cigarettes and other sources of revenue that are feeding organized gangs.

I will conclude by talking a bit about the demand for contraband, which I made reference to at the beginning of my remarks. The demand for contraband tobacco has increased over the years because of the organized crime element and its ability to make huge profits. One of the reasons that organized crime can make the profits it makes is because of the level of taxation on cigarettes.

As government has recognized, in order to discourage people from smoking, it has increased the cost of cigarettes. As a result, we have seen significant growth in the purchase of contraband cigarettes through the underground and illegal activities. We need to work with the different stakeholders, the provinces and others, to look at ways to beat this serious issue.

I want to pick up on my final point of cigarettes as a whole. We recognize that smoking is detrimental to the health of our citizens. I would therefore suggest that we do more to educate people and encourage them to make the decision to quit smoking, specifically our young people. We should support our students in the best way that we can. We should ensure that anti-smoking programs are included in our public education system.

We need to see stronger leadership coming from Ottawa. Ottawa needs to deal with the different stakeholders who could play a role in minimizing the use of tobacco, whether it is the health element or the tax element. All of this has to be taken in an all-encompassing fashion, so that Canada will be able to deal with the serious issue we are facing today on a number of fronts, recognizing that the bill attempts to deal strictly with contraband tobacco.

However, at the end of the day, we help deal with that issue and it has a serious impact, a positive impact, upon other areas, too.

With those few words, I am quite prepared to end my comments in anticipation. As I indicated, the Liberal Party supports the bill in principle and supports its going forward.

[Raymond Côté, NDP, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. member for Winnipeg North for his speech. I am pleased to hear that he will be supporting the bill even though it has some shortcomings. As the hon. member for Gatineau pointed out, it is all a question of implementation. We need to have the means to tackle this issue.

Tobacco smuggling is not a new problem. In the past, unfortunately, we had to deal with extensive smuggling. At that time, my colleague's party was in power, but it did not necessarily do what needed to be done to address the smuggling problem.

I would like to know why he is now supporting the fight against smuggling, when his government's record is less than stellar. Will he take responsibility for past Liberal governments?

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Mr. Speaker, to the member, it is much like if we take a look at the NDP government in Manitoba over the last 10 years and its absolute and total failure in being able to deal with this issue. It goes beyond just one government or one political party. It is not the NDP that owns this issue in trying to make a more positive difference. Governments of all political stripes have attempted and have not done anywhere nearly as well as they could have done.

That is the reason we in the Liberal Party say that we need to have more leadership coming from Ottawa, working with the different provinces, because it is not just Ottawa that is going to resolve the problem. it is going to take a lot more than Ottawa dictating or changing a law. It is going to take a lot more effort, and that means consultation and working with the different stakeholders. There is a lot to be lost if we do not take action on this issue.

As I say, it is not just contraband cigarettes that the criminal element is getting involved in. That is just one aspect. The criminal element is involved in everything from stolen goods, to guns, to prostitution, to illegal drugs, to alcohol. There is a wide selection; this is one component of it. That is the reason there is more of a need to take a holistic approach in dealing with this. I would suggest that Ottawa can and should play a more significant role going forward.

[Christine Moore, NDP, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I would just like to ask my colleague a very simple question about the process.

When the minister wrote the bill, should he have used a different drafting and consultation strategy than the one that was used to develop this bill?

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Mr. Speaker, when ministers are assigned the responsibility of bringing forward legislation, one would like to think that they do their homework. I do not believe that has happened in this case. I will go back to the previous question, with respect to how very important it is that we work with the different stakeholders.

I was not at the committee hearings, so I do not know to what degree consultation was formally done. From what I understand, the government could have done a much better job at trying to build a rapport with, in particular, the different provinces, in terms of making some of the changes that would complement the legislation.

I do believe that the government could have improved the legislation. There are some aspects of the legislation that raise concerns. Maybe they are judicial independence-related issues or other initiatives that could have been taken, that would have been more of a disincentive for the criminal element's involvement, but, as I say, we have to factor in the costs of cigarettes in society today. There are many different factors.

I am not convinced that the government has done a thorough job in addressing this issue head-on.

[Françoise Boivin, NDP, Gatineau, QC]

Mr. Speaker, that is a very interesting comment from my colleague.

As I said earlier about improving the bill, apart from the implications of the Gladue ruling and perhaps the recognition of the principles of that ruling in relation to section 718 of the Criminal Code, this is a relatively straightforward bill that creates offences and imposes certain penalties. There are some complex aspects to it.

I think my colleague is referring to the idea that we need to add more provisions to complement this bill.

What kinds of approaches and consultation, assistance, services or resources could the government offer first nations that are having issues with tobacco smuggling on their land to complement the implementation of this bill?

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Mr. Speaker, we need to recognize the economics also. For many first nations communities, there is a question of economics. To what degree has the government consulted with and worked with first nations communities on this issue? I know it is a very important issue. As opposed to my trying to state a specific position on this issue, I would very much be open to hearing from our first nation leadership as to how they would like to see us, as a nation, move forward in addressing this issue.

Suffice it to say that there has to be some form of compensation or some assistance in developing industries in many of the first nations that perhaps need to rely on this form of revenue when directly or indirectly affiliated with a particular area of our country. As I say, there are very many facets to this issue. What we are really talking about is one relatively minor area, but it can make a difference. I hope it will make a difference.

We could have done so much more if we had taken a more holistic approach. When I made reference to stakeholders, they are obviously a stakeholder with a fairly significant interest, and there should have been more consultation done.

[Raymond Côté, NDP, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I agree with my colleague from Winnipeg North that we could have done more for aboriginal communities.

What bothers me is that the Liberal Party was in government for 13 long years before coming up with a so-called agreement that almost seemed like a marketing ploy.

How can my colleague justify having done nothing for so long during all those years instead of taking action and addressing the root of the problem?