Bill S-5 (Historical)

Nááts’ihch’oh National Park Reserve Act

An Act to amend the Canada National Parks Act (Nááts’ihch’oh National Park Reserve of Canada)

This enactment amends the Canada National Parks Act to establish Nááts’ihch’oh National Park Reserve of Canada.

Nááts’ihch’oh National Park Reserve Act

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

The Prime Minister quadrupled the size of it.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Northwest Territories, NT]

Mr. Speaker, then he reduced the budget.

We have seen that we have quadrupled the size of the parks and we have reduced the budget. How does that work? Why not invest in these parks? Why not think that these parks are the real opportunity for growth and tourism in this country? We cannot simply look on them as the whipping boys for cutting the budget for the government. That should not be the case.

National parks should be that sacred trust in which we put forward that opportunity to expand, to look at the wonderful wilderness we have. In a world of nine billion people, wilderness is one of the most valuable commodities there is. Going forward, we know that people will want to come and visit the parks. We know they will want to experience what we have here. Let us invest in that. Let us make that happen.

When my hon. colleague accused me of not liking national parks, that was absolutely ludicrous. I love the wilderness. I love what we are doing with the size and shape of our national parks, but we absolutely need to make sure that investment goes in, so that the people of the regions I represent will benefit. The Northwest Territories has given up more land for national parks than any other part of this country in the last 10 years. Let us see the investment go in to make that a reality for us.

Mr. Speaker, you have done an incredible job of keeping me in line. Thank you. I will stop my discourse there, because I can see I will not get much more applause from the other side, so I think this is a good time to quit.

[John Baird, Conservative, Minister of Foreign Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, I listened with great interest to the speech of my friend from Northwest Territories. I want to refer to some of the things he said.

He should acknowledge that it is this government that has increased protected space in Canada by 40%. We quadrupled the size of Nahanni National Park, something that conservation experts and environmentalists had pushed for years. It was not the Liberal government; it was this government.

The hon. member is very correct that the Nahanni National Park is a phenomenal place, the first UNESCO world heritage site in the world. It was the first one designated. For years there was even mining allowed in these great areas. I think that is an example of where we can work together and accomplish great things.

There were new financial resources put to the park, never as much as anyone would like, but we have seen some good success. The bill before us, I think the member would acknowledge, is another step in the right direction, keeping up the momentum that has been building in recent years.

I found his speech quite entertaining, and I do not like Christmas pudding.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Northwest Territories, NT]

Mr. Speaker, the words I did not hear from the minister were the words of the first nations of the Sahtu Region, the Dehcho people, the people of Lutsel K'e, who are the ones who actually make the parks happen. Without their support, this would not be here. That is why I said this is a Christmas gift from the first nations of my region. The Sahtu have said they are willing to give up their traditional land to make a reserve that they will share with the rest of the people for eternity.

I thank the government for listening. That is very good.

[Guy Caron, NDP, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague, the member for Northwest Territories, for his excellent speech.

Speaking of resource extraction, Stephen Kakfwi, the former premier of the Northwest Territories, had some pretty harsh words to say about the proposal. Of course, there is the expansion of the national park, but the way it was done was rather strange. Indeed, Mr. Kakfwi said he has the impression that it was done to protect the interests of mining companies. In the end, a large section of the land basically looks like a doughnut, with a hole in the middle, which is not protected although it is crucial to the protection of habitat and breeding grounds in that territory. According to Mr. Kakfwi, that part of the park will not be protected specifically in order to allow exploration.

Since my colleague knows the area very well, I would like to hear his thoughts on Mr. Kakfwi's remarks about the park's expansion.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Northwest Territories, NT]

Mr. Speaker, Stephen Kakfwi, the premier of the Northwest Territories from 2000 to 2004 was an excellent leader. He was a visionary in the Northwest Territories and has my total respect. I understand where he is coming from on this. We have talked about the issue of the size and shape of the park. Where we have to go with this is that, as this is a national park reserve, in the future the national park will be established. If there is a government with a will to include more of the area within that national park, that is something that could be accomplished and something we could look forward to. Right now what is happening is a step that is supported by the people in the Sahtu Region. They are willing to accept what the government is offering to do. They are partners in it.

I think we can support this going forward in good fashion for those reasons. Nothing is perfect in this world, but as we go along in life we can make things better.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I want to pick up on the member's opening comments when he made reference to this being a Christmas gift of sorts. What we can take from that is, even though we have the bill that originated out of the Senate before us today, at the very least we should acknowledge the efforts of the first nations and other stakeholders who got engaged to give a better understanding of the needs of the community and the importance of the designation of having an expanded national park. This is not something that occurs overnight; it takes a great deal of effort that goes far beyond politicians sitting in the House of Commons. Therefore, it is important that we recognize their efforts and applaud them for allowing us to be where we are today with respect to being able to move forward and expand a national park.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Northwest Territories, NT]

Mr. Speaker, what the member is saying is absolutely correct, except the emphasis should be on the work that the Sahtu people did in getting a land claims agreement in place and in developing the whole idea of respect for their rights to the land. What we see coming out of that is that the plans other people have can come to fruition. It is an object lesson about getting land claims settled and putting first nations in a position of empowerment over their land. Then we can see good results coming from that.

What we are seeing in this country right now is the exact opposite of that, with all of these court cases over resource development. We see that governments and industry are not paying attention to the custodians, the owners of the land in many cases, who are the first nations people. When they do, good things happen.

[Colin Carrie, Conservative, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of the Environment]

Mr. Speaker, I want to thank the member for Northwest Territories for his compliments, but also for his support on this very important bill. He hit it right on when he said that, in the season of gift-giving by Santa Claus, this is a great gift for us to give Canadians.

It is appropriate that the former minister of the environment, who did so much work up north to expand these parks that people even knew him as “Johnny Nahanni” when he was doing this work, was acknowledged here in the House.

In the spirit of giving and the spirit of Christmas, there is another park that we have an opportunity to give, as a gift to Canadians this holiday season. I want to talk a little about the Rouge Park. He knows that some people really respect Santa at this time of year, but then others respect Scrooge and are kind of looking towards the Grinch, and they are obstructing these wonderful gifts to the GTA.

We know the Liberal history of the Trudeau government of the 1970s and how it treated farmers. Now we see the Liberal government aligning itself with some of the most radical environmental groups, looking towards environmental integrity. We talked about environmental integrity in the Rouge and how that is not possible.

I was wondering if my NDP colleague would, in the spirit of Christmas, say that the NDP will help us support the creation of the Rouge and not align itself with the grinches on the side of the House in the Liberal Party who have been playing politics with this park for years. Let us make that a reality over Christmas for Canadians.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Northwest Territories, NT]

Mr. Speaker, this is a complex issue that the member is asking me to address right now, and that would be difficult in the 45 seconds I have.

My thoughts are full of mistletoe and Christmas pudding, as well. In this moment, I cannot say that I can offer that to the member. To me, it speaks volumes about the difference in values. When first nations people have the opportunity to respect the land and to preserve the land, they will pick up on it. In Ontario, in urban areas, my goodness, those values are much more difficult to put in place. That is something people in Ontario can learn from first nations in the Northwest Territories.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

Mr. Speaker, there does seem to be a lot of Christmas spirit around here.

In a moment of Christmas spirit, I am going to give colleagues a gift: I will speak very briefly about this bill. I appreciate the enthusiasm on the part of the Minister of Foreign Affairs. I anticipate that this enthusiasm is shared by pretty well everyone in this House.

The reason is that there has been lots of debate about this bill. Pretty well everything that needs to be said has been said. There is general support on both sides of the House for this bill. It has been noted, and I will note again, that it is regrettable: the minister could have taken the entire South Nahanni watershed, as the population wanted, and turned it into an addition to this park.

For Liberals, this is a special park because it was initiated under former prime minister Trudeau many years ago. Successive governments have added to this park. I congratulate the government for its latest addition to the park.

It is ultimately kind of dragging bad news out of good news to take out what would have been the South Nahanni watershed and shrink it down to what is in the metes and bounds description that is in front of the bill. Regrettably, it only had the support of two people, of all of the 1,600 people who were canvassed.

Nevertheless, I adopt the views of a former colleague, Ethel Blondin-Andrew, that we should not let perfection be the enemy of the good. This is a bill that is worthy of giving support, and I am urging all colleagues to do so.

Again, in the spirit of Christmas, merry Christmas to all.

[Rosane Doré Lefebvre, NDP, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for his brief but very interesting speech.

I think everyone in the House is very pleased to support Bill S-5. Although it is not perfect, just to have a reserve is nevertheless a good idea and we very much appreciate it.

My question is very simple. The government's plans had proposed three possible surface areas for this national park. The smallest area of land was the one selected, which is somewhat sad.

Why does my colleague think the Conservatives chose the smallest area of land?

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

Mr. Speaker, there are specific reasons for that, and they have been canvassed in previous debates and at the committee. I specifically asked the minister why she chose the smallest portion of all of the portions that were presented as options. Indeed, there were four options. I am going from memory so do not quote me on these numbers, but the options were the entire South Nahanni watershed, or 7,000 square kilometres, or 6,000 square kilometres, or 5,000 square kilometres. The 5,000 square kilometre option was the one that was accepted, which only had the support of two people.

Ironically, the lines, when they are drawn, just seem to skirt all of the mining sites so the government can legitimately say there will be no mining going on in the park itself. It is a nice bit of rhetoric, but somewhat facetious since it has drawn the boundary. How it would work, with respect to any effluent that comes from the mine that must go through part of the park, is another question.

Nevertheless, as I said, let not perfection be the enemy of the good. The government, in spite of itself, has done some good here.

[Harold Albrecht, Conservative, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I want to thank my colleague for his support of the bill, but there was a comment he made that just cannot go unaddressed.

He implied that it was the government that created those spaces for mining. I recall very clearly, as chair of the committee, that when those questions were asked of people from that area, they were very eager to have mining preserved in those areas. Let us face it, this committee is called the committee on environment and sustainable development. Our northern people are eager to have development to provide jobs and opportunity for them as well.

I hope my colleague would correct the record on the implication that it was the government that insisted on those parts being left out.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I was at that committee, too. I have the record here from the Library of Parliament. The Library of Parliament said that there were three options put in front of the 1,600 people. Two of the options, option A and option B, included the mine sites. The third option skirted the mine sites.

Yes, there is always eagerness for development in northern regions, but there is also a very deep-seated ethic of ecological integrity, which I think northerners probably respect as much as, if not more than, pretty well any other Canadian.