An Act to amend the Criminal Code (bestiality and animal fighting)

This bill was last introduced in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session, which ended in September 2019.

Sponsor

Status

This bill has received Royal Assent and is now law.

Summary

This is from the published bill. The Library of Parliament often publishes better independent summaries.

This enactment amends the Criminal Code to
(a) define “bestiality”;
(b) expand the scope of the offence of encouraging, aiding or assisting at the fighting or baiting of animals or birds so that the offence
(i) includes promoting, arranging, receiving money for or taking part in the fighting or baiting of animals or birds, and
(ii) also applies with respect to the training, transporting or breeding of animals or birds for fighting or baiting; and
(c) expand the scope of the offence of building, making, maintaining or keeping a cockpit so that the offence applies with respect to any arena for animal fighting.

Elsewhere

All sorts of information on this bill is available at LEGISinfo, an excellent resource from the Library of Parliament. You can also read the full text of the bill.

Votes

May 8, 2019 Passed 3rd reading and adoption of Bill C-84, An Act to amend the Criminal Code (bestiality and animal fighting)
May 8, 2019 Passed Time allocation for Bill C-84, An Act to amend the Criminal Code (bestiality and animal fighting)
March 18, 2019 Passed Concurrence at report stage of Bill C-84, An Act to amend the Criminal Code (bestiality and animal fighting)

February 21st, 2019 / 9 a.m.
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Director General and Senior General Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Policy Sector, Department of Justice

Carole Morency

It would end with.... It would be, “in addition to any other sentence that it may impose”, then comma, and then you have (a) and (b), with the changes that have been noted about the deletion of “or a bird”.

One of the other distinctions would be.... Perhaps the legislative drafters would comment that normally you would put sentencing provisions together in a provision. Here, you have the definition that Bill C-84 is proposing as subsection 160(4), and LIB-1 would propose to put the additional penalty provision after the definition. In the end, I guess it's all there, but it's probably a drafting thing.

February 21st, 2019 / 8:55 a.m.
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Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

Good morning, everyone, and welcome to the meeting of the justice committee that everybody is waiting for today. Our discussion is on Bill C-84, an act to amend the Criminal Code with regard to bestiality and animal fighting.

I'd like to welcome the student group here today—it's great to have you. I think all the committee members are excited to have so many people in the room on our clause-by-clause on the bill. Clause-by-clause means that we're going through amendments to a bill. This is a bill that was proposed by the government, and different committee members have heard from witnesses and will now be proposing amendments.

It's a pleasure to have Mr. Davies and Mr. Erskine-Smith join the members of the committee this morning.

It's also a pleasure to be joined by witnesses from the Department of Justice: Madame Carole Morency, director general and senior general counsel; and Ms. Paula Clarke, counsel, criminal law policy section. Welcome, both. You will be helping us if we have questions on any of the amendments.

We'll now get to the list of amendments.

(On clause 1)

The amendment we have to clause 1, LIB-1, is essentially the identical point as PV-2, NDP-2 and CPC-1, just put in a different part of the code. It has exactly the same effect, to apply rules to a conviction in the bestiality section that people can't own animals.... Those rules were in different sections and didn't apply to this offence. Each of these amendments—PV-2, NDP-2 and CPC-1—would become moot if LIB-1 was adopted, because it achieves the same thing.

Mr. Erskine-Smith, this is your amendment. You have the floor.

February 7th, 2019 / 10:20 a.m.
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NDP

Fin Donnelly NDP Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC

Are there any forms of animal cruelty that are of concern to you or to your organization that aren't adequately covered by existing offences in the Criminal Code or by amendments in Bill C-84?

February 7th, 2019 / 10:20 a.m.
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NDP

Fin Donnelly NDP Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC

Is there anything with regard to Bill C-84 that you'd like to see? This is an opportunity, when the government is looking at making these changes, to do something.

February 7th, 2019 / 10:10 a.m.
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Liberal

Colin Fraser Liberal West Nova, NS

However, making it easier to actually get convictions, which Bill C-84 does, will hopefully have an impact on the number of incidents that actually occur.

February 7th, 2019 / 10:10 a.m.
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West Coast Campaign Officer, Animal Protection Party of Canada

Jordan Reichert

I would say yes, I'm supportive of Bill C-84. I believe the animal fighting aspect really rounds out the legislation and, I think, fulfills its goal and its interest in serving to protect animals.

However, I believe the bestiality aspect fails to address the more systematic issues surrounding bestiality and to bring it into more contemporary times in terms of how these things are taking place and how they're being organized. I was reading about a forum called Beast Forum, or something like that. It has 1.2 million registered users. When you think about the number of people who could be trading and organizing through these kinds of channels and the rings that may be established, it's not sufficient to simply be focusing only on the act of bestiality. It's not just between that animal and that person. It has a much larger social aspect to it as well, which needs to be addressed.

That's why the Washington state law is one of the most progressive in terms of addressing this more well-rounded approach.

February 7th, 2019 / 10:10 a.m.
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Liberal

Colin Fraser Liberal West Nova, NS

Thank you.

Mr. Reichert, I appreciate your presentation and the brief that you've submitted to the committee.

From what I gather, you're supportive of Bill C-84 but you don't think it goes far enough. Is that fair to say?

February 7th, 2019 / 9:50 a.m.
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West Coast Campaign Officer, Animal Protection Party of Canada

Jordan Reichert

Thank you so much.

First of all, I want to thank the committee for this whole process.

In particular, I want to thank Mr. Rankin, the member for Victoria and my MP—he is absent today but he has been here—for all his good work in the community and his support for various issues I've brought forward related to animals. He's been very helpful with that.

I also want to thank Mr. Erskine-Smith, the member for Beaches—East York—he's not here now either—for his work on bringing animal issues forward into government. I think he's made a tremendous impact here.

My name is Jordan Reichert. I'm the West Coast Campaign Officer for the Animal Protection Party of Canada. The Animal Protection Party of Canada is North America's first political party for animals to represent their interests and those of the environment. It was established in 2005—before, one could say, bringing animals into politics was cool, perhaps. We hold all political parties accountable for their policy in regard to protecting animals and the impact of their policy on the environment and society as well.

To start, I want to address the question of animal sentience, which underlies the purpose of why we are gathered here to consider the treatment of animals under the law. While animals may still be defined as property under the 1892 statute in the Criminal Code, they are without question sentient. According to the declaration on consciousness that was made in July 2012, scientists, in the presence of the late Stephen Hawking, wrote the following:

Convergent evidence indicates that non-human animals have the neuroanatomical, neurochemical, and neurophysiological substrates of conscious states along with the capacity to exhibit intentional behaviors.

In recognition of the above, it is necessary to approach Bill C-84 from the perspective that we are enhancing protections for vulnerable individuals who may not be treated as equals under the law but are nonetheless affected equally by its inadequacies to protect their safety. Bill C-84 addresses specific instances of cruel acts against animals—namely, bestiality and animal fighting—without addressing the broader implications of animals' continued definition as property. I want to acknowledge this shortcoming while not dwelling on it, and move on to the specific acts addressed in the bill.

The amendments to the Criminal Code proposed in Bill C-84 address long-standing holes in the law that have allowed for the sexual abuse, exploitation and suffering of animals across Canada. While these issues in particular may not be as prolific or garner as much attention as other animal cruelty issues, they are no less important to the animals who suffer them.

As is often referenced as the catalyst for Bill C-84 in regard to bestiality, the Supreme Court case of the Queen v. D.L.W. narrowly defined bestiality as “penetration between a human and an animal”, drawn from the original term “buggery”. This allowed an act of unquestionable sexual harm to an animal and a young person to be excused. In the wake of the Supreme Court of Canada's decision, this has had further chilling effects on prosecutors' already limited abilities to address animal cruelty cases. With there being a strong correlation between the abuse of animals and the abuse of vulnerable people when they are present, this amendment will benefit individuals, animal and human alike.

My concern about the wording of Bill C-84 is that it does not go far enough to address the contemporary systematic aspects of bestiality rings. Bestiality is not only a private act but also a social one, with online forums and an existing trade in images, video and the arranging of meetings to sexually abuse animals. For example, unlike child pornography, no provisions are made in the wording of the law against bestiality, old or amended, that address the creation of materials and the promotion or dissemination of sexualized content of animals.

In Washington state, laws around bestiality acknowledge this broader narrative behind the act. There, causing or aiding another person to engage in sexual activity is also prohibited, as is permitting it in your premises, observing it, promoting it and advertising it. In Canada, under the current law and proposed amendments, the proliferation of bestiality would still have avenues to spread unaddressed, online and otherwise.

Animal fighting is another illegal activity that does not get significant media attention due to its underground nature and ties to organized crime. The act of breeding, training and fighting animals causes considerable psychological and physiological damage to animals, or may lead to violent premature death.

There is also the theft and deaths of the animals associated with the training of dogs who fight in the arena, including dogs and cats who are used as bait during the training process.

Current wording in the Criminal Code fails to address substantial motivations and processes involved for people engaged in animal fighting. Animal fighting often involves financial investment in the animals being fought and profited off of, and that investment must be recognized as a key motivator for the people behind this brutal blood sport. Operations that breed and abuse animals for fighting may be run in an organized and semi-professional manner, and this needs to be addressed in the law. Furthermore, the current wording only addresses cockfighting pits, and not the more common contemporary design of “arenas” used for dogs. You've heard much about this.

Changes proposed in Bill C-84 will substantially address many of the shortcomings of the current reading of the law. Adding the wording “promotes, arranges” and “receives money for or takes part in” increases acknowledgement of the breadth of processes behind the organizing of animal fighting rings. Including “the training, transporting or breeding of animals or birds” is also an important acknowledgement that the arena is the end game and not the sum of animal fighting. While cockfighting still exists, the new wording that describes the less specific “arena” is essential to bring the law into the contemporary context of animal fighting.

However, Bill C-84's current amendments neglect to include the theft of animals for the purpose of training or fighting other animals. This would be an important inclusion, considering the prevalence of this activity related to animal fighting.

The Animal Protection Party of Canada is unequivocally opposed to the use of animals for sexual gratification and fighting. Animals have been recognized by the scientific community as sentient beings who are feeling and intelligent, who have their own interests and who are expressive of their needs and desires.

The act of bestiality is exploitative of the position of power a human has over a vulnerable animal and is not something the animal can be understood to consent to freely. Animal fighting may be more brutal, merciless and violent, but again it stems from the same power imbalance that places a vulnerable animal at the mercy of someone who has admonished themselves of their duty to provide safety and security for the welfare of animals.

Due to the clandestine nature of bestiality and animal fighting, it is unclear how prolific each may be in Canada. However, there is evidence that such acts are not completely uncommon.

What I regret to tell you is that the case law does not reflect even a faction of the number of cases that are submitted to animal welfare agencies by the public who witness them, let alone the number that are never reported. Amendments to Bill C-84 will hopefully help to prosecute these crimes and empower the public to report them but also help improve the status of animals within the law.

With over 50% of Canadian households having pets as our friends and family, animals deserve better than to be relegated to the property section of the Criminal Code. Bill C-84 will not address this broader issue of animals as property, but it will address some of the most egregious abuses of our relationships with them.

Thank you for the opportunity to address you today.

February 7th, 2019 / 9:40 a.m.
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Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

We will now reconvene our session of the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights as we study Bill C-84.

We are delighted to be joined today on our next panel by Mr. Jordan Reichert from the Animal Protection Party of Canada, who is the West Coast Campaign Officer.

Welcome, Mr. Reichert.

February 7th, 2019 / 9:20 a.m.
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NDP

Fin Donnelly NDP Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC

Great. Thank you.

Mr. Annau, we've heard from other witnesses and department officials that amendments to Bill C-84 should not impact any legitimate hunting or fishing practices. Is there any wording that you have a particular concern about in Bill C-84?

February 7th, 2019 / 9:05 a.m.
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Frank Annau Environment and Science Policy Advisor, Canadian Federation of Agriculture

Thanks, everyone.

My name is Frank Annau. I'm speaking on behalf of the Canadian Federation of Agriculture, or CFA, as this organization's environment and science policy adviser.

CFA was formed in 1935 to give a united voice to Canadian farmers. It has since grown to be Canada's largest general farm organization, representing approximately 200,000 farmers and farm families nationwide.

Our president Ron Bonnett sends his regrets for not being able to attend this morning, but we both extend our thanks for this opportunity to participate in providing comments on Bill C-84.

Canadian agriculture has a long history of responsible stewardship and devotion to improving animal care standards and performance. Producers care deeply about their farm animals and wish to ensure respectful and equitable treatment for all animals.

This conviction is strongly shared by those of us working within Canada's agriculture community, so much so that in 2016, CFA participated in a working group with the National Farm Animal Care Council, or NFACC, to identify areas within the Criminal Code where greater protection for animals was needed. The research of the working group was thorough and examined distinctions between federal and provincial laws to help inform avenues for updating the code. These proposed updates were addressed in a joint letter to former Justice Minister Wilson-Raybould in December 2017. It was signed by a wide array of stakeholders including the Canadian Cattlemen's Association, Chicken Farmers of Canada and the Canadian Pork Council, just to name a few.

The letter formed a united opinion on changes needed to help protect the safety of Canadians and improve the welfare of all animal species. Recommendations included that bestiality mean any contact for a sexual purpose between a person and animal, that provisions dealing with animal fighting explicitly include all species of animals, and that profiting from animal fighting be included under the Criminal Code as an additional offence.

As such, we are pleased to see these recommendations addressed in clauses 1, 2 and 3 of Bill C-84. The extended definition of “bestiality” and provisions related to animal fighting, training, promotion and arena hosting greatly strengthen the security of animal welfare here in Canada. Most importantly, these amendments address the loopholes in the Criminal Code by adding further legal protection for children and vulnerable members of society against sexually exploitation.

As such, the CFA extends its support for the proposed amendments to the Criminal Code under Bill C-84. The inclusion of all animals under provisions specific to bestiality and animal fighting instills the values of agricultural producers by helping to ensure the respectful treatment of all animals.

Thank you for this opportunity to participate.

February 7th, 2019 / 8:55 a.m.
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Sgt Teena Stoddart

Good morning.

My name is Teena Stoddart. I have been a police officer for 28 years. I was a paralegal before that. Currently I'm a sergeant with the Ottawa Police Service and a member of the Canadian Violence Link Coalition. In 2010 I was seconded to the OPP behavioural science section, where I received specialized training in serial predator crime. I received training from the RCMP and the FBI. I have been volunteering with Humane Canada since 2009 and the Ottawa Humane Society for over 15 years.

I will start by advising the committee that police officers get no training on investigations involving animals unless they are or have been attached to a behavioural science section. In some cases, a sexual assault investigator will attend a conference or training, but it is not required or the norm. In Ontario in 2017, there were 25,981 police officers. OPP behavioural science has approximately 25 specialized police officers. The RCMP would have approximately 10. In my estimate, then, less than 1% of police officers in Ontario would have any type of specialized training in animal abuse or the violence link, yet animal abuse is one of the top signs of a serial sexual predator. In November 2018 I facilitated the first violence link training to police officers. It's a start, but we need resources to see this endeavour come to fruition. We need governments to mandate violence link training.

Speaking to the bestiality section of Bill C-84, this legislation needs to include touching an animal for any sexual purpose in order to make our communities safer for all living beings. The International Journal of Law and Psychiatry conducted a research study. They took a random sampling of over 943 incarcerated men. Half of sexual offenders and a third of child molesters committed animal abuse during adolescence. This same study confirmed that childhood sexual assault abusers use animals to lure and/or groom their victims. An example of grooming would be, “I touched the doggy there, so it's okay for you too.” Then they progress to, “You can touch me where you touched the doggy.” It's a desensitizing process used to normalize sexual touch to children.

Sexual predators educate themselves on grooming methods. That's how they get away with the crimes. They have chat groups and do research just like everyone else. Grooming is a means to get the child normalized to the inappropriate feeling of touch on their private parts. That way, when the predator tries to touch the child, it's not foreign for the child to have their private part touched for reasons other than medical or cleaning. The use of peanut butter took place after an attempt to have a dog penetrate failed. The offender searched online for other ways to involve the dog. This was from a Supreme Court of Canada case.

Predators know that in a lot of these cases, there is little law enforcement can do. I'll give you the example of being called to a residence and the mother saying, about her eight-year-old, for instance, “My child tells me that for the last three years Uncle Johnny has tried to get her to fondle the dog.” All we can do at that point is say, “You'd better not have Uncle Johnny come over anymore.” We have no legal recourse. I have consulted Crowns and various people on this issue. It's the same thing if we get called to a park and a mother says an offender was using a dog to lure or groom a child. There's nothing we can do.

Bestiality is not only found in relation to children. Police services also investigate when one partner forces another into posing or committing sexual acts with an animal and takes pictures or videos it. The abusive partner then blackmails the other into staying with them and putting up with the abuse. The vulnerable spouse will not report to police for fear of retaliation. Many research studies have identified that animals are used to control their victims. We just heard Monique St. Germain and Lianna McDonald state that in their research.

Now I'll talk about the animal abuse side of this. Dr. Rebecca Ledger is Canada's leading expert and court-approved expert on animal behaviour. I have worked with her to deliver police training. She's conducted decades of scientific studies of all kinds of animals. I have an email from her stating that “penetration does not need to occur in order for the dog to suffer”. We had an Ottawa case recently where this came up and she gave expert testimony.

Having the Criminal Code bestiality crime as being committed only if there is penetration puts vulnerable citizens at risk from predators. Broadening the bestiality law strengthens community safety for all living beings. I would submit that it have the same sentencing provisions as section 447.1 of the Criminal Code of Canada does for the lifetime prohibition of animals and restitution. Also, it needs to include their being put on a sex offender registry. Right now bestiality does not fall under that provision.

I'll move to the animal fighting part of Bill C-84. Once again, putting in place proper legislation aimed at stopping the heinous crime of dogfighting will give law enforcement a tool to increase community safety by taking away a funding source for gangs and shutting down their venues to move their guns and drugs. It also removes the means for gangs to recruit young people.

Decades of evidence-based research produce findings such as the fact that illegal gambling gains from dogfighting are substantial. One purse can go for more than $200,000. One dogfighting event can host several animal fights. If you have five animal fights in an event, you're looking at $1 million. This study was produced by Michigan State University.

Gangs also use animal fighting events like we use conventions: for networking, recruiting, and to sell and trade guns and drugs. This is also in the Michigan State University study.

The early introduction to animal cruelty through exposure to dogfighting, especially repeated acts, impacts development and has strong links to later interpersonal violence. This was reported in a 2011 study.

To desensitize young people to gang violence, they invite them to dogfights to acclimatize them to violence. Animal fighting is bloody. Because animal cries and pain are recognized as similar to humans, the thick skin starts to materialize so that violence on a human is not so far-fetched. Many of the youth interviewed in the Maher and Pierpoint 2011 study spoke about using the dogs as weapons against both humans and other dogs for rival gangs.

The Chicago Crime Commission conducted a study and found that 82% of those arrested for animal abuse had prior convictions for assault, weapons or drugs, again demonstrating the violence link. In Chicago, 35% of search warrants executed for animal abuse or dogfighting investigations resulted in seizures of illegal drugs and/or weapons. The commission produced an action alert in August 2004 entitled “Reduce animal violence, reduce all violence: A program to amplify human and animal violence prevention and reduction by targeting dogfighting and animal cruelty”.

Last but not least is the irreparable damage done to bait dogs and the animals that are used for fight dogs. Training techniques are used such as electrocution, kicking, punching, stabbing and beating dogs, in addition to withholding vet treatment for injured dogs and forced fighting. Even if these animals are saved, they often have to be euthanized due to aggressive behaviours or medical issues.

The violence link is extremely prevalent in both bestiality and animal fighting. The research is clear. Where you see evidence of animal abuse there's a great probability that humans are or have been abused by the same predator. We strengthen community safety for all living beings by giving law enforcement the tools to deal with these crimes.

All living beings deserve to be free of violence, and if that violence happens to them, they deserve to be protected by laws, police and the judicial system.

Thank you.

February 7th, 2019 / 8:50 a.m.
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Executive Director, Canadian Centre for Child Protection

Lianna McDonald

Thank you very much. Good morning, everyone.

Mr. Chairperson and distinguished members of the committee, we thank you for giving us this opportunity to provide a presentation on Bill C-84.

My name is Lianna McDonald. I am the Executive Director of the Canadian Centre for Child Protection. Again, joining me is Monique St. Germain. She's our General Counsel.

We are here this morning to express our agency's strong support for the bill and to speak specifically about the offence of bestiality.

We have had the opportunity to listen to many of the proceedings so far. We will provide some different information for the committee to consider, coming from the unique lens that our organization has, tied to crimes against children. We will provide examples of what we have seen in real images and in case law.

Our organization is a national charitable organization dedicated to the personal safety of all children. We have been doing this important work for over 30 years.

Our agency operates cybertip.ca, which is Canada's national tip line to report the online sexual abuse and exploitation of children. The tip line is a central part of the Government of Canada's national strategy for the protection of children from sexual abuse and exploitation.

Cybertip launched 16 years ago. Its primary role is to receive and analyze reports on potentially illegal material or activities regarding online crimes against children. It is through this work that our agency witnesses first-hand the ways in which children are being sexually victimized. Since its inception, the tip line has processed over 400,000 reports, and the number of reports has increased steadily over the years. The tip line is now processing, on average, 10,000 reports a month.

To combat the growing online proliferation of child sexual abuse material, our organization developed a new tool called Project Arachnid. This automated crawler and platform helps reduce the online availability of child sexual abuse material, breaking the cycle of abuse. Through Project Arachnid, over 1.6 million notices have been sent to social media and content providers hosting this egregious material around the world.

The vast majority of the images seen through the tip line depict very young prepubescent children, many of whom are preverbal and cannot tell anyone about the abuse. We also know that most children who appear in the sexual abuse material have never been identified by law enforcement.

In 2016, we conducted an analysis of over 40,000 unique images and videos classified by the tip line as child pornography, and 50% of the images involved explicit sexual activity and extreme sexual assaults against children. Among the extreme acts were those involving bestiality. Over a five-year period, Cybertip assessed 192 different sex acts involving an animal and a child, and 80% of those acts did not involve penetration. Oral sex acts were the most commonly seen, in 55% of the bestiality images.

You have already heard from a prior witness that bestiality content along with sadistic material is considered the most harmful form of child sexual abuse material. The following two examples provide a lens into the stark reality of what bestiality looks like when children are involved. While these examples may be difficult to hear, they are harder to see and worse to endure.

In the first example a young girl around eight years old is sitting on a blanket beneath an animal. The image is focused on her and she's completely naked. The girl has one hand around the animal's penis and her mouth around the other end of the penis. In the second example yet another young girl is laying on a bed with her arms behind her head, her legs are spread open and a dog is appearing to lick her genital area.

To better understand the unique challenges faced by survivors of child sexual abuse material, our agency conducted an international online survey. The results were released in 2017 and were based on responses from 150 survivors from around the world. While we did not ask specifically about bestiality, a number of survivors told us their abuser threatened to harm pets or other animals in their life as part of the abuse. To quote from one survivor, “They killed my pets, which they gave to me as a present beforehand in order to make me compliant.” Another survivor said, “I was deeply ashamed. And I had also abused other children/animals myself and was afraid I'd go to prison if it were discovered.”

What was clear from the survey was that all survivors of child sexual abuse imagery face lifelong impacts from having their abuse recorded.

The sexual abuse is horrible in and of itself, but when the abuse includes forcing a child to participate in a sexual act with an animal, the trauma to the child is compounded.

Cybertip also receives reports on online luring. For example, last year the tip line received a report about a young teenager who had been communicating online with an individual. This individual not only asked the child for nude images but also directed the child to engage in digital penetration of the family pet. This is just one of the many examples of the ways in which technology is being used and misused to manipulate and coerce children.

People who seek to victimize children and animals do not limit themselves to acts of penetration, as defined in R. v. D.L.W. With the rate at which we are finding new child sexual abuse material, we know that this is a problem, one that is likely growing. Until the law is changed, children and animals are vulnerable to sexual abuse and exploitation.

Thank you.

My colleague Monique has a few comments to make.

February 7th, 2019 / 8:50 a.m.
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Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

Good morning, everyone.

Welcome to the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights as we continue our study on Bill C-84, an act to amend the Criminal Code regarding bestiality and animal fighting.

It is a pleasure to be joined today by an illustrious group of witnesses.

By video conference from Winnipeg, we have Ms. Lianna McDonald, Executive Director of the Canadian Centre for Child Protection.

Welcome, Ms. McDonald.

February 5th, 2019 / 10:25 a.m.
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NDP

Murray Rankin NDP Victoria, BC

Thank you very much.

Professor Sankoff, first of all, thank you for your leadership in this area and thank you for intervening in the R. v. D.L.W. case. I think it's great.

You started by saying that we have in Canada, sadly, among the worst laws on animal cruelty in the western world. Thanks to the leadership of Mr. Erskine-Smith, we tried to make a dent in that in Bill C-246, but the Liberal majority voted it down. Maybe after the election we can get back to the basics on that.

Your analogy to polygamy was intriguing. You talked about how there's a possibility in an individual instance of no harm to the individuals involved, but society says the risks are high enough and the vulnerability of the children are great enough that really we should proceed notwithstanding the lack of any particular harm in a given case. You use that as an analogy to bestiality, which I thought was a very apt one.

I'd like you to talk a bit more about that from the perspective of harm to the animals, which you focused on, almost like animal rights, Professor Singer's work and all of that. It's as distinct from the difficulty, as you pointed out, of proving psychological harm and all the other things.

Talk a little bit about that and see if that vision can be implanted in the current law as proposed in the narrow compass of Bill C-84.