Bill C-10 (Historical)

An Act to amend the Broadcasting Act and to make related and consequential amendments to other Acts

This enactment amends the Broadcasting Act to, among other things,
(a) add online undertakings — undertakings for the transmission or retransmission of programs over the Internet — as a distinct class of broadcasting undertakings;
(b) update the broadcasting policy for Canada set out in section 3 of that Act by, among other things, providing that the Canadian broadcasting system should serve the needs and interests of all Canadians — including Canadians from racialized communities and Canadians of diverse ethnocultural backgrounds — and should provide opportunities for Indigenous persons, programming that reflects Indigenous cultures and that is in Indigenous languages, and programming that is accessible without barriers to persons with disabilities;
(c) specify that the Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission (the “Commission”) must regulate and supervise the Canadian broadcasting system in a manner that
(i) takes into account the different characteristics of Indigenous language broadcasting and the different conditions under which broadcasting undertakings that provide Indigenous language programming operate,
(ii) is fair and equitable as between broadcasting undertakings providing similar services,
(iii) facilitates the provision of programs that are accessible without barriers to persons with disabilities, and
(iv) takes into account the variety of broadcasting undertakings to which that Act applies and avoids imposing obligations on a class of broadcasting undertakings if doing so will not contribute in a material manner to the implementation of the broadcasting policy;
(d) amend the procedure relating to the issuance by the Governor in Council of policy directions to the Commission;
(e) replace the Commission’s power to impose conditions on a licence with a power to make orders imposing conditions on the carrying on of broadcasting undertakings;
(f) provide the Commission with the power to require that persons carrying on broadcasting undertakings make expenditures to support the Canadian broadcasting system;
(g) authorize the Commission to provide information to the Minister responsible for that Act, the Chief Statistician of Canada and the Commissioner of Competition, and set out in that Act a process by which a person who submits certain types of information to the Commission may designate the information as confidential;
(h) amend the procedure by which the Governor in Council may, under section 28 of that Act, set aside a decision of the Commission to issue, amend or renew a licence or refer such a decision back to the Commission for reconsideration and hearing;
(i) specify that a person shall not carry on a broadcasting undertaking, other than an online undertaking, unless they do so in accordance with a licence or they are exempt from the requirement to hold a licence;
(j) harmonize the punishments for offences under Part II of that Act and clarify that a due diligence defence applies to the existing offences set out in that Act; and
(k) allow for the imposition of administrative monetary penalties for violations of certain provisions of that Act or of the Accessible Canada Act.
The enactment also makes related and consequential amendments to other Acts.

[Thomas Owen Ripley, Director General, Broadcasting, Copyright and Creative Marketplace Branch, Department of Canadian Heritage]

Thank you for the question, Mr. Housefather.

The amendment as currently drafted, as members of the committee will note, talks about undertakings that are carried on under a licence. The way that Bill C-10 is structured, as you may recall, is that online undertakings actually do not need to hold a licence, and so the amendment that Mr. Aitchison is proposing is actually already in line with the amendment as currently drafted, because an online undertaking is not required to hold a licence to begin with. The CRTC, as you may know, does indeed review ownership transactions in the conventional broadcasting world—that is, conventional broadcasters, cable and satellite companies—and this is to just ensure that it can continue to review those transactions moving forward, given that we're moving to a condition of a service model instead of a condition of a licence model.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Chair, believing the motion I've laid out on the table is of utmost importance, I would move that we return to debate, that debate resume with regard to the motion that I have put before this committee, which, of course, asks for a new statement from the justice minister in regard to whether Bill C-10 in its current state does in fact respect the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

Thank you, Madam Clerk.

Now we go to C-10 for the day.

As mentioned earlier, we're going to talk about G-10. It's where we left off last time, if you recall.

Do I see Ms. Dabrusin raising her hand?

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

As you know, I'm a former broadcaster, like many on this committee.

We all know, whether you're from the government side or the opposition side, that C-10 needed to be updated. It hadn't been updated in over 30 years. In fact, the Internet wasn't even around the last time this bill came forward. In the last several months we've all talked about this bill.

It was interesting hearing from all the stakeholders. That's all I'm going to say. The stakeholders have been looking at this bill for the last five years. They want a good bill to come out of committee so they can put it on the wall and follow the regulations.

We know that the conventional broadcasters—and we've heard from them in committee—are deeply hurting in this country. It doesn't matter if you're a big supplier of television and radio like Bell or Rogers or if you're just a local radio station by yourself in Kamloops or wherever; you know this bill is major in the industry right now.

This is not only because of COVID-19, although that slowed it up a little, but Mr. Chair, as a former broadcaster, I think you too would agree that the landscape in this country has changed dramatically. It's changed because of the Internet. It's changed because of the digital players. All of us know that. Many of us in this country no longer subscribe to cable. We've seen the numbers drop, and maybe for good reason. They're getting their news now from Facebook. They know what their families are doing across this country because of Facebook.

When you seek a charter statement on this.... I don't know about you, but I've had literally 200 to 300 calls and emails this week, specifically since last Friday, from constituents really worried about the rights and freedoms of Canadians.

Many of us go on and upload messages to family. In my statement.... I have a brother out in Vancouver who I haven't seen in maybe four or five years. I have a nephew right now that has made the Prince Albert Raiders. I'm just going to share this with you. They had a bubble in Regina, so I could have maybe gone to see him play. They had a 24-game schedule here in Regina. I couldn't go because of COVID, which I understand.

How do I reach out to my nephew, Niall Crocker, and his family? This is not only me; this is every family in the country. They want the freedom socially to do some of what we have done for years now.

When the proposed section 4.1 was removed last Friday and changed the field, then all of a sudden, holy man.... We've gone into uncharted territory. It's uncharted because when you have a former chair of the CRTC raising a flag.... I can tell you that Ian Scott, the current chair of the CRTC, read his statement. What we don't want, I think, as legislators is the CRTC non-elected telling people in Canada what they can and can't do on the Internet with respect to what they can upload and so on.

I think Michael Geist was right on. Every newspaper in this country—not only the Sun newspapers, but the National Post, the Toronto Star, The Globe and Mail and so on, has really come to the forefront with this story this week, because it matters to Canadians. The newspaper industry, as we know, is hurting in this country.

I would say this, as a former broadcaster. They probably had more input this week because of this bill than on any other government bill that has been debated in Parliament in the last two weeks. They know it's an infringement of rights.

I agree with Ms. Harder and Mr. Rayes. Maybe we should get a legal opinion from the justice minister on the charter statement on rights and freedoms.

For people in this country, because they've been locked down, Mr. Chair—and you know it more than anybody because you're back in the Maritimes right now—this is really hard on them. Particularly in this country, we're fighting anti-maskers and people who don't believe in vaccines, and then all of a sudden this bill hits the airwaves from last Friday and in particular the last five days in this country, and people are up to here. They want their rights and freedoms restored if they've been diminished. This bill, by removing the proposed section 4.1 last Friday, has diminished rights. You might not say that, but it's there.

When you have a former chair of the CRTC raising awareness before we even get to the finish of clause-by-clause, that's enough for me. Mr. Menzies was a well-respected chair of the CRTC for years. Mr. Scott, in his position, I am sure, has had the dialogue over what is happening in committee.

I want to say thank you to Mr. Ripley and all the Heritage staff. You have been magnificent on clause-by-clause, giving an opinion on our amendments going forward and giving us a sense of what is needed in this bill, because we're only going to get one shot at this. This took 31 years to get renewed, and it may take another 31 years to move it forward.

The stakeholders are watching. We know that. We're still getting emails from all our stakeholders who want one-on-one meetings. I'm getting them every day from everybody, in particular over what happened last Friday, with the government removing 4.1.

I'll wrap it up there. I think we need to pause this right now. We can get a clarification from the justice minister. I've seen quotes in newspapers. Let's get this bill right. That's why we're here; that's why we got elected. We got elected to do the right thing for Canadians—to bring a bill forward that needs to be updated. All of us on the committee, all 11 of us on this committee, agree that this bill needs to be right.

When we saw what happened this last week with Canadians up in arms over this bill—and they are up in arms over it—I think that was the flag for all of us to say, “Look, let's get an interpretation. Then, once we get that interpretation from the justice minister, good or bad, we can move on with this bill.”

We all agree on this committee. We've gotten along so well, and we still are, but we want this broadcasting bill to be right. I see no problem pausing, getting a clarification, and then picking it up and moving it out. We have seven or eight weeks in the House of Commons. What's the difference if we bring this out May 10 or June 10? The difference is that we'd better get it right. Canadians are looking to us to get it right.

That is my comment, Mr. Chair. I appreciate your time and your willingness to hear from all of us here today.

Thank you.

[Alain Rayes, Conservative, Richmond—Arthabaska, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to make a comment on Ms. Harder's request, which I consider perfectly legitimate.

We all started out with a willingness to review the Broadcasting Act, which is many years old. When we started, everyone wanted to collaborate with the government. Those who came to talk to us expressed their concerns. They told us about aspects of the bill with which they agreed or disagreed, or which, in their opinion, should be amended.

All members of the committee, from all parties, unanimously agreed to allow members of Parliament the privilege of expressing their views on this bill in the House. Some saw the bill as basically bad, some raised concerns. Members of the committee even agreed to conduct a preliminary study of the bill in committee so as not to hold up the process. The Liberals hinted in the media that we had tried to hold up consideration of the bill, but that was false. It had been agreed that the committee would begin to study the object of the bill and, once the debate in the House was over, the committee would consider the information that had been gathered as it began its official study of the bill.

Everyone was ready to work together, with the objective that the major players in the digital world, such as Netflix, be regulated in the same way as our traditional Canadian broadcasters, as we so dearly like to call them. Everyone shared in that salutary and commendable objective, at the outset.

Subsequently, some criticized the government for not requiring the GAFAs of this world, companies like Facebook, to redistribute money. It was also criticized for not including the CBC's mandate in the bill. We also had the whole issue of hate speech on social media, which the Minister proposes to deal with by means of another bill that will be introduced later.

Through it all, we did our work. Experts came to testify before the committee. A few weeks ago, we then began the clause-by-clause consideration of the bill. If my figures are correct, about 118 amendments were proposed by all parties: 37 by the Green Party, 37 by the Bloc Québécois, 27 by the government itself and by the Liberal members of the committee,14 by the NDP and 13 by ourselves in the Conservative Party. As I said, that's 118 amendments. It shows that the bill had a number of gaps from the outset. All the members of the committee worked together to find an acceptable compromise by proposing subamendments. The issue of Canadian content in French, that everyone brought up, as you recall, also had to be dealt with.

So what happened last Friday was a shock for everyone, I would say. No one saw it coming. Although committees are supposed to be independent, the Minister, through his Parliamentary Secretary, and other Liberal members who represent him on the committee, decided to eliminate one whole section of the bill, which will have consequences on internet users and influencers specifically. People do not realize that and are only just starting to talk about it. I can tell you that the media in Quebec are not talking very much about what is happening at the moment. However, freedom of expression and the very basis of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms are at play for all users, influencers, youtubers, people with a little YouTube channel, who do it as a second job or just as their passion. By taking out that whole section, the power to regulate has just been handed over to the CRTC.

I have a lot of respect for Ms. Dabrusin. She repeated what the Minister said in question period, that such is not the government's intention and I want to believe it. If that is the case, the government would not have had to come to that decision, because now we are not talking about the same thing at all. It is no longer a bill intended to submit the major digital players to the same regulations as conventional broadcasters. A big hole has been opened up, with no guidelines, by giving the entire power to the CRTC, which is out of our control. Actually, as soon as we have anything to say against that organization, we are told that we have to listen to it and let it do its work, because it's independent.

Basically, our work is to make sure that the bill imposes a tight framework to protect the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. That should also be the raison d'être of every member of the House of Commons.

Some might wonder whether this is an opposition attempt to prevent the bill from being passed. That is not the case at all. The opinions we have heard this week have come from experts. Ms. Harder named some of them, and I don't want to quote their comments again, but they include Michael Geist, an emeritus law professor at the University of Ottawa. Some might wonder whether that professor is going overboard when it comes to the bill, but no. I am sorry to disappoint you, but he is very well recognized in his area. He is so well recognized that, as I dug into the registry of grant programs supporting research and professors in their work, I found that the Liberal government had paid that professor several hundred thousand dollars. I am not saying that he received money to which he had no right. On the contrary, he received it because of his expertise in the area. In 2020, or to be more precise, on April 1, August 15, February 8, and September 1, he received more than one hundred thousand dollars for his work. He is therefore a credible expert who is showing us a warning light when he states clearly that we have before us “the most anti-Internet government in Canadian history”. I am not an expert in the area, but I can say that the warning light is yellow and may even be about to turn red. As parliamentarians, we have a responsibility to put a foot on the brake and examine the situation.

We can add what Mr. Menzies said. He is a former commissioner of the Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission, whose reputation in the area cannot be questioned.

I would also like to draw the attention of all committee members and to the people listening to us that Daniel Bernhard, the Executive Director of Friends of Canadian Broadcasting, who has come to talk to us on several occasions, has been sending warning signals since we started. Just look at page 3 of the report that the organization submitted to the committee. Before we even started to propose amendments, the organization was already shedding light on the risk posed by eliminating subsection 4.1, which the bill was proposing to add to the Broadcasting Act. By eliminating it, we have ripped away an essential element of protection from internet users all over the country.

Let us not even mention the host of experts, university professors and political analysts who have been waving red flags, not yellow ones, since the beginning of the week, telling us that, by agreeing to eliminate this section, we have just dug ourselves a hole.

With all due respect to my colleagues, I consider that Ms. Harder's request is perfectly legitimate. There's nothing partisan about it. It asks the Minister of Justice, himself a member of the Liberal Party, to submit a new Charter statement to follow the one, which he himself wrote, stating that the bill we are currently studying is supposed to provide protection for the users.

I venture to think that our committee, whose members have been working together from the outset, will have the wisdom to say that it has made a mistake. If theMinister is operating in good faith and, as he states, the consequences of eliminating that section are not those that he wants, let's look at our decision again. It will not prevent things from moving forward, because I don't think we will be passing Bill C-10 in a week. The Liberal government will soon have been in place for six years. During that time, it has prorogued Parliament. The committee has done everything it can to make sure that things roll along. We have wasted not one minute in the legislative process. Let me emphasize that all members of the committee have worked to move this bill forward.

I hope that the Minister will stop his empty rhetoric, in suggesting that we may have said things in the past when we have not. Right from the start, the minister told us that the GAFAs were going to be included in the bill, which was completely false. Today, by trying to correct a mistake, he has made another one by asking the committee to eliminate subsection 4.1.

I repeat, if we want things to roll along nicely, let's just pass this motion. Then, first, we will be able to ask the Minister of Justice to provide us with an updated Charter statement and, second, we can listen to what the Minister of Canadian Heritage and the Minister of Justice have to tell us. Then we will be able to resume our work with a view to passing the bill on the Broadcasting Act, so that the major players in the digital world are subject to the same regulatory framework as the broadcasters we like to call traditional.

Ms. Harder, thank you for your expertise and your work. I hope that the message you are sending us will allow the committee to make a wise decision, the right decision.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Mr. Chair, I understand that this committee is doing, I believe, its best to get through this legislation quickly and to move it to a point that it can be voted on in the House of Commons. I believe, however, that there are some things that need to be considered before getting to that point.

As I've outlined previously, clause 3, or proposed section 4.1, was removed from the legislation last week. When that took place, the nature of this bill changed.

There is a charter statement that was provided by the justice department under the name of the justice minister. That charter statement determines whether or not this piece of legislation, Bill C-10, would be in agreement with or within the purview of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

That statement is now null and void, because a significant portion of the bill was removed last week. That being the case, I believe this committee needs to seek another statement with respect to the charter and whether the charter rights of Canadians are in fact being respected within the new outline provided within this bill.

I would draw the committee's attention to a few opinions or viewpoints that have been offered by experts. Most notably, former CRTC commissioner Peter Menzies said that this legislation “doesn't just infringe on free expression; it constitutes a full-blown assault upon it and, through it, the foundations of democracy.”

Mr. Chair, that is an incredibly damning statement in regard to this piece of legislation as it stands now, because that clause was removed last week. That being the case, I believe this committee needs to take the responsibility of seeking another charter statement.

The argument has been made by some members at this table—and by other members of the governing party when this has been raised in the House of Commons during question period—that Canadians shouldn't worry; that there would never be an imposition on their freedom and what they post on social media.

At the end of the day, however, if it's not there, it's not there. In other words, if the protection isn't granted, then there's no protection. It's that simple. If the protection is not outlined in this legislation, then there is no protection for Canadians.

We're talking about a regular component of their daily lives. We're talking about a video they post of their cat, about a video they post of their kids, about a conversation they're having with a friend on a social media platform. This is a new form of public square, and based on the charter, our right to freedom of expression should not be imposed upon.

I would argue, and many other experts have argued, that they are being imposed upon. That being the case, I believe we need to seek a new charter statement based on this legislation as it stands now.

I want to move a motion for this committee's consideration. If I may, I would like to read it into the record.

It reads:

That, given that the deletion of section 4.1, clause 3 of Bill C-10, would extend the application of the Broadcasting Act to programs uploaded by users of social media services, which in turn could violate paragraph 2(b) of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms;

and given that the current “Charter Statement” required under section 4.2 of the Department of Justice Act with respect to the potential effects of Bill C-10 directly states that “users of social media who upload programs for sharing with other users and are not affiliated with the service provider will not be subject to regulation” as part of its argument that Bill C-10 respects section 2(b) of the Charter, the committee:

(a) request that the Minister of Justice produce an updated “Charter Statement” under section 4.2 of the Department of Justice Act with respect to the potential effects of Bill C-10, as amended to date, on the rights and freedoms that are guaranteed by the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms;

(b) invite the Minister of Canadian Heritage and the Minister of Justice to appear before the committee to discuss the implications of Bill C-10, as amended to date, for users of social media services; and

(c) suspend clause-by-clause consideration of Bill C-10, notwithstanding the Committee's decision of March 26, 2021, until it has received the updated “Charter Statement” requested under paragraph (a) and has heard from the ministers invited under paragraph (b).

Mr. Chair, that is the end of my motion. I would reiterate how vitally important it is that this committee composed of legislators do its work responsibly and seek this statement from the justice minister.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Chair, the original intent of this legislation was to modernize the Broadcasting Act. However, by removing this clause 3 of Bill C-10—the proposed new section 4.1 of the act—there's a significant difference in what this is now, and I would argue that it potentially impedes upon the freedoms of Canadians that are granted under section 2(b) of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

Social media platforms are the new public square. That's where people engage in conversation.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Yes. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

The removal of proposed section 4.1 from Bill C-10 fundamentally changes the legislation and dissolves the ground on which the charter statement stood to justify charter compliance. Therefore, the original charter statement should be considered null and void if this committee wishes to do due diligence. Therefore, I would propose to you that we need a new charter statement from the justice minister, based on the transformational edit that was done on Friday.

Mr. Chair, I believe this is extremely important, because it's about protecting Canadians and their freedoms.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

Welcome back, everybody.

This is meeting number 28 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage.

Pursuant to the order of reference of Tuesday, February 16, the committee resumes its clause-by-clause consideration of Bill C-10, an act to amend the Broadcasting Act and to make related and consequential amendments to other acts.

We are doing this, of course, virtually—

Canadian Heritage

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Mr. Speaker, in what has been characterized as a full-blow assault on freedom of expression, the Liberals amended Bill C-10 to give the government the power to control the social media content of everyday Canadians to ensure that it matched “the government's vision”. This is nothing short of Orwellian.

Why is it that when it comes to freedom of expression, the government's approach is that it can be damned?

[Jasraj Singh Hallan, Conservative, Calgary Forest Lawn, AB]

Mr. Speaker, Bill C-10 limits the freedom of speech of the Canadian people. Many immigrants and refugees come here to enjoy the freedom and liberty that they did not have the luxury of back home. This bill gives power to a big government institution that can use it to silence and oppress marginalized groups online.

Why will the Liberal government not stay out of the lives of consenting Canadians and let people live free from the hands of big government?

[Rob Moore, Conservative, Fundy Royal, NB]

Mr. Speaker, my office has heard from many New Brunswickers who are very concerned about the Liberal government's plan to censor Internet content. Bill C-10 will have a chilling effect on local content creation, something that is increasingly important in rural communities, where residents use social media to share news and their stories.

Will the minister do the right thing and abandon this Orwellian plan?

Bill C-10

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Mr. Speaker, in what countries do the governments control what people post on the Internet and what they can see, and punish content that does not match “the government's vision”? They are China, Russia and soon to be Canada, because that is precisely what the Liberal government's Bill C-10 would do. Comments about matching the government's vision are not those of a Chinese communist official, but of the Minister of Canadian Heritage.

Former CRTC commissioner, Peter Menzies, has characterized this bill as a full-blown assault on freedom of expression and the foundations of democracy. It is no wonder the Prime Minister has expressed admiration for China's perfect dictatorship. This bill is Orwellian, it is undemocratic, it is un-Canadian and it must be stopped.

[Benoit Chartier]

The results will be the same in Quebec and elsewhere in Canada. The issue is national, not provincial.

As mentioned earlier, the government must provide legislation right away. It could introduce a mammoth bill that would encompass Bill C-10, the anti-smear bill, and the bill against Facebook and Google to help Canadian newspapers. Whatever happens, it needs to happen as soon as possible.

In terms of the media, the equivalent of the Australian legislation that was passed this winter needs to be implemented in Canada. I am speaking on behalf of 100 weeklies in Quebec, but I also include all the newspapers associated with News Media Canada, of which Hebdos Quebec is a part. It includes all the weeklies and community newspapers across Canada. They are in every riding. All of the members of Parliament here on the Standing Committee on Finance have a special relationship with the newspapers in their ridings: they know the editors and the reporters, and the reporters know the members of Parliament, their press secretaries and political staffers.

Newspapers across Canada are under great strain right now, and the COVID-19 pandemic is not helping.

We cannot wait a few years, or even six months. Legislation must be introduced by the end of this parliamentary session in Ottawa, before the summer recess, so that there is some hope for the summer, and before an election is called. If an election is called, the process will take even longer, because we will have to wait to find out whether there will be a majority or minority government, which ministers will form the new cabinet, and so on. I think the Minister of Canadian Heritage needs to speed up the process and introduce legislation as soon as possible.

[Benoit Chartier]

Yes, that's our concern.

We would like to see the priority given to the bill to support the media. In our opinion, it is even more urgent than Bill C-10 and the bill against hateful content online. It is a matter of survival. Not just the weekly newspapers are in trouble; every newspaper in Canada, from the smallest to the largest, is in a state of crisis.