Bill C-10 (Historical)

An Act to amend the Broadcasting Act and to make related and consequential amendments to other Acts

This enactment amends the Broadcasting Act to, among other things,
(a) add online undertakings — undertakings for the transmission or retransmission of programs over the Internet — as a distinct class of broadcasting undertakings;
(b) update the broadcasting policy for Canada set out in section 3 of that Act by, among other things, providing that the Canadian broadcasting system should serve the needs and interests of all Canadians — including Canadians from racialized communities and Canadians of diverse ethnocultural backgrounds — and should provide opportunities for Indigenous persons, programming that reflects Indigenous cultures and that is in Indigenous languages, and programming that is accessible without barriers to persons with disabilities;
(c) specify that the Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission (the “Commission”) must regulate and supervise the Canadian broadcasting system in a manner that
(i) takes into account the different characteristics of Indigenous language broadcasting and the different conditions under which broadcasting undertakings that provide Indigenous language programming operate,
(ii) is fair and equitable as between broadcasting undertakings providing similar services,
(iii) facilitates the provision of programs that are accessible without barriers to persons with disabilities, and
(iv) takes into account the variety of broadcasting undertakings to which that Act applies and avoids imposing obligations on a class of broadcasting undertakings if doing so will not contribute in a material manner to the implementation of the broadcasting policy;
(d) amend the procedure relating to the issuance by the Governor in Council of policy directions to the Commission;
(e) replace the Commission’s power to impose conditions on a licence with a power to make orders imposing conditions on the carrying on of broadcasting undertakings;
(f) provide the Commission with the power to require that persons carrying on broadcasting undertakings make expenditures to support the Canadian broadcasting system;
(g) authorize the Commission to provide information to the Minister responsible for that Act, the Chief Statistician of Canada and the Commissioner of Competition, and set out in that Act a process by which a person who submits certain types of information to the Commission may designate the information as confidential;
(h) amend the procedure by which the Governor in Council may, under section 28 of that Act, set aside a decision of the Commission to issue, amend or renew a licence or refer such a decision back to the Commission for reconsideration and hearing;
(i) specify that a person shall not carry on a broadcasting undertaking, other than an online undertaking, unless they do so in accordance with a licence or they are exempt from the requirement to hold a licence;
(j) harmonize the punishments for offences under Part II of that Act and clarify that a due diligence defence applies to the existing offences set out in that Act; and
(k) allow for the imposition of administrative monetary penalties for violations of certain provisions of that Act or of the Accessible Canada Act.
The enactment also makes related and consequential amendments to other Acts.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

I really appreciate that, and I do hear what you said before about how the history of regulations and the history of CRTC actions has protected many things that we're concerned about today. But of course this is the one chance that legislators have to actually direct the regulator and I think we need to be cognizant of it.

Mr. Minister, we've heard from a wide variety of groups and one thing that I think we've heard relatively universally is how important it is to put these changes into effect as soon as possible. Whether or not they want amendments to the bill, most groups still say they want this bill to come into effect quickly.

Do you have any words to encourage the committee on timeline?

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Housefather, for your intervention and your questions.

We don't get to revise a bill like the broadcasting bill every other day of the week—it's been 30 years. If we're doing it now let's try to make it the best possible bill that it can be and resolve as many issues as possible. So of course I would be happy to contemplate changes that would improve it even more.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

My questions will be about Bill C-10, but before that, I want to tell the minister I really appreciated his presentation. I would like to ask him to think about the proposed cuts at Radio Canada International that are about to come up. I hope the minister is looking at that. I think those cuts are problematic.

I can't wait to see the minister when he comes forward with regulations related to removal of illegal content from online platforms.

I listened to Mr. Rayes and Monsieur Champoux.

I, too, am concerned about the lack of precision, in the proposed text, about original French content. I was very pleased to hear the minister say that he would give careful consideration to any amendments that might be proposed by the committee.

Also, I am concerned about the issue of content for official language minority communities.

One of the things, Mr. Minister, that we heard before the committee was a concern from francophone groups outside Quebec and English-speaking groups in Quebec that almost all the French content in Canada today comes from Quebec, almost all the English content comes from outside Quebec, and very little French content is produced outside Quebec and very little English content now in Quebec.

Would you, Mr. Minister, be accepting of some amendments to the bill that we may put forward that would deal with the preoccupations of the official-language minority communities?

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Where to start? CBC does not have a monopoly. There are plenty of other broadcasters across the country, both on radio and on television. I think what CBC is doing in terms of moving some content online is what a number of broadcasters are doing.

We could be talking about Bell Media. We could be talking about Quebecor. This is because more and more users.... I know for a fact that my kids don't listen to the radio as I do and certainly don't read newspapers—paper copies—like I do. That's not how they get their information. I think what the CBC is doing is a reflection of what pretty much everybody in the market is doing.

What we're trying to do with Bill C-10 is to ensure that Canadian broadcasters, Canadian producers of culture and artists get their fair share out of this transformation.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

Ms. Dabrusin, thank you very much for that. You are correct. The last two questions—or the last two questioners—and certainly the last 10 minutes have been somewhat far afield about some of the issues that we have addressed, and they were in the first round as well.

I normally like to give my colleagues the time they deserve within their allotted time, and I tend to give them a lot of freedom. As you know, for example, in estimates, we can talk about pretty much anything in the presence of the minister as long as it pertains to the department.

However, that being said, I would like to remind my colleagues that this certainly is about Bill C-10. Some of this has been tangential to the point where I get it, but some of the other stuff has been, as Ms. Dabrusin pointed out, far afield.

Can we please bring it back, whether it be at the core of Bill C-10 or tangentially at Bill C-10, for the sake of the legislation we are studying?

Mr. Waugh, you have about two minutes to conclude.

Thank you, Ms. Dabrusin.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

We've had a pretty wide-ranging conversation until now, but this seems far afield from Bill C-10 at this point. I was wondering if we could bring it back to a conversation about the modernization of the Broadcasting Act.

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

I've been clear from the beginning. Bill C-10 won't fix everything when it comes to looking at broadcasting generally defined. It doesn't address issues related to the CBC.

We are a minority government. We took those elements of the Yale report that we felt were the most crucial to implement. As I've said before, there are a number of other recommendations coming out of the Yale report that we would like to move forward with. We just can't do everything at once. If I presented the House and this committee with a bill that encompassed everything under the sun, I sincerely doubt we would ever be able to get the bill through.

I do think we can get Bill C-10 adopted. It won't solve everything, but it will solve an important part of the equation. My government believes in the Canadian broadcaster. We have made significant investments in the Canadian broadcaster, and I want to ensure a healthy future for our Canadian broadcaster.

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

I was under the impression that we were going to talk about Bill C-10 today, so most of the information I have with me is on issues relating to Bill C-10.

You may recall that our government made a record-level investment into the CBC in the previous mandate, after years of cutbacks under the Harper government.

I do not have that information offhand; I'm sure we could provide it to you.

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

I think you misunderstand the role of a regulator. Personally, I have never intervened with the CRTC, but I have intervened with many Quebec and federal energy regulators.

A regulator does not make its decisions according to the number of companies that lobby it for deregulation or for better regulation. That is not how a regulator works, not the Régie de l'énergie du Québec, not the Canada Energy Regulator, not the CRTC. Rather, it considers all of the positions submitted to it, in light of the law that governs its work.

In addition, through Bill C-10, the government is giving itself greater ability to give direction to the CRTC.

In light of all this, this is how the CRTC and all regulatory agencies make decisions.

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

As Jean-Stéphen and Owen explained earlier on, we are keeping most of the infrastructure of the actual broadcasting legislation and regulation.

What we're doing with C-10, and I think why the bill has been saluted by so many, is we're keeping what's working and we're adding this whole other layer of elements where Canadian regulations will be able to be applied to online giants, like Spotify, Netflix, Amazon Prime and Apple Music.

To correct something Mr. Rayes said earlier, he said that we've been waiting for five years. Actually, we haven't. My predecessor commissioned a group of people who went across the country and received almost 2,000 position papers from different organizations. That concluded in the Yale report, which was tabled in early 2020. We then took that and started working on the bill, which was introduced a year later in the middle of the greatest pandemic we've seen in 100 years.

I don't think we've actually been losing a lot of time on this. We have acted very promptly to make this happen.

[Alain Rayes, Conservative, Richmond—Arthabaska, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My thanks also to the Minister and his colleagues for joining us.

Allow me to correct some of the Minister's comments, or at least to describe them as I see them.

The Minister does not want this bill to become a partisan issue and he wants us to recognize its urgency. I would like to inform him that the committee unanimously agreed to fast-track consideration of this bill, despite the perfectly legitimate privilege that members of Parliament have to express their views in the House of Commons and to ask questions about the bill. I remind him that the Liberal government took five years to introduce this bill. It also prorogued Parliament, which set back consideration of important bills such as this one on broadcasting. We are in full agreement on the principle. If it is not too much to ask, I would like the minister to be a little circumspect at the moment, rather than trying to lecture to us as he is doing now.

With that said, yes, he is right: we actually did receive a notice buried in a document, several pages long, containing exactly the same information that had been given to us: that the calculation had been done using scenarios. I would like to tell the Minister that his Deputy Minister, Ms. Laurendeau, took the time at that same meeting to say that it would be important to provide explanations when the document was submitted, because it was supposedly complex. So I feel that there has been some confusion. I will grant him that we certainly received the information, but nothing was very precise. Once more, we are going to have to wait for the guidelines from the CRTC.

I would like to return to this bill; it is so important but it does not consider a number of factors. As the Minister himself said in his presentation, the bill nowhere deals with hate speech or revenue-sharing. Social media are not included in the bill. Despite the urgency and the consultations by the CRTC, nothing has yet been done to review the role that CBC/Radio-Canada has to play. Therefore, many questions arise.

When the Minister of Official Languages tabled her working document, her supposed white paper, she spoke to us about the importance of French and the importance that the government sees in promoting and defending it. She said that French would have a major role in broadcasting, and a lot of hard work was going to be done.

However, when we look at Bill C-10, that deals mostly with the digital players, we realize that the only measure designed to enhance the place of French, to promote it and to ensure French-language content, is to remove the words “as resources become available” at the end of paragraph 3(1)(k) of the act. It now simply reads that “a range of broadcasting services in French and in English shall be progressively extended to all Canadians”.

It seems to me that the bill provides for nothing substantial in this regard. However, the Minister told us that, for her, French is important and that she was going to make sure that it would be a factor in all departments. Now here we are studying this bill that we have been waiting for for more than 30 years. According to the Minister and his senior officials, the bill is historic. But it contains only one single item that deals with protecting French.

How do you respond to all the organizations that are concerned about the place of French in Acadia, in Quebec and in the French-speaking communities outside Quebec? I am not talking about quotas; don't try to tell me that there are quotas.

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Minister of Canadian Heritage]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon, everyone.

I am joining you from Montreal, on the traditional territory of the Mohawk and the other Haudenosaunee peoples.

Mr. Chair, members of the Committee, it’s a pleasure for me to appear before you today regarding the study of Bill C-10, An Act to amend the Broadcasting Act and to make related and consequential amendments to other Acts.

I would also like to acknowledge that today is International Women's Day.

I’d like to thank the members of the committee for the preliminary work you have been doing for some time now.

I’m delighted that this bill has finally passed second reading in the House of Commons. The delays that some Conservative members have caused were a concern for me, but we got there, and we can continue to move forward. Let us please remember that this is not a partisan bill. It is a bill that focuses on culture; it is a bill for Canadians, and it deserves to move forward.

I hope that all the members here and their caucuses recognize the urgency of modernizing the Broadcasting Act so that it can better serve the interests of Canadians in the digital world.

Today it's impossible to overlook the legislative imbalance that favours digital platforms to the detriment of Canadian broadcasters and creative industries. This reform responds to a pressing need. It is crucial to ensuring the vitality of Canadian businesses now and for decades to come. This is why our government will continue to work constructively and collaboratively so that Canadians can benefit from the most effective legislative tool possible, as soon as possible.

From the outset, the cultural and creative sectors have provided input into the modernization of the current legislation. They've expressed their support for this reform and this favourable movement is trending across the country, particularly in Quebec.

Moreover, since the tabling of the bill, this important discussion has continued in the public space and before your committee. It has given rise to several proposed amendments that we will examine with all the attention they deserve. We are, of course, open to improvements that would maximize the benefits of the amended Act for Canadians.

I know that you have received substantial input from several key contributors, and I look forward to seeing the results of the committee’s work in this regard.

I am well aware that the study of the bill must be carried out with care, for two reasons. First of all, because it introduces methods that are completely new in Canada for implementing a regulatory framework adapted to our current reality. Second, because this is an important issue. Many players in the creative and cultural industries are calling for this update to the Broadcasting Act and are counting on this new tool to continue to develop their work on digital platforms.

Let us remember that the current broadcasting system has served Canadians well for decades. It has fostered the emergence of strong national creative and cultural industries. It has supported the delivery of original content that reflects our identity and our values. Bill C-10 aims to preserve that legacy. However, it also aims to include many new players and new activities. It must therefore take an approach designed to include online broadcasters and ensure their equitable contribution.

With this bill, we want to make the diversity of Canadian voices resonate more clearly: francophone and anglophone voices, the voices of minority communities, Indigenous voices; and the voices of all communities across the country, including ethnocultural communities, racialized communities, and others that are too often underrepresented on the screen and elsewhere.

I want to make it clear that this bill is not intended to change the regulatory structure in broadcasting. Rather, it is intended to update the objectives of the legislation and the tools of the CRTC. It therefore preserves the autonomy conferred on the CRTC to implement the appropriate regulations and achieve the objectives of the Act. This autonomy is all the more important as the broadcasting system begins to incorporate new players with different business models, and as the system continues to evolve.

This bill does not address the regulation of online hate nor the equitable compensation of journalists by the web giants, as these are not strictly broadcasting issues; however, I intend to introduce two more bills on these issues in the near future. In due course, I will be pleased to appear before your committee regarding these other bills, always in the spirit of constructive co-operation.

I will be pleased to provide you with the Order in Council that we intend to issue following the passage of the bill. Please note, however, that this Order in Council was drafted prior to the introduction of the bill. It may therefore be redrafted as a result of amendments to Bill C-10 between now and Royal Assent.

As well, in the interest of transparency and as required by law, the Order will undergo a period of public consultation to invite feedback from Canadians.

I invite you to use the Order in Council as background material for your study, but to focus your efforts on the bill itself. Because that is the legislation that will be with us for several decades and will ensure the sustainability of the broadcasting sector. Over the years, governments will come and go, and will issue various Orders in Council to the CRTC as they respond to changing circumstances.

Finally, I would like to clarify the following situation. When I appeared on November 5, 2020, the member for Richmond—Arthabaska asked me what calculations the department had used to determine that the additional investments in Canadian content through digital television broadcasts would amount to $830 million. On December 11, 2020, the department provided the clerk of the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage with the answers to the questions asked at the meetings of October 30 and November 5, 2020, including the one dealing with the calculation of the $830 million. At my last appearance before the committee—

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

Welcome back, everyone, as we reconvene once again.

We're discussing Bill C-10.

I want to thank our guests at this time, but before I do that, we have another guest I'd like to mention. Mr. Jaime Battiste is joining us from Sydney—Victoria. I forgot to mention you last time; my apologies. His beautiful riding is what I like to call the gateway to the island of Newfoundland.

I also want to say thank you to the minister, the Honourable Monsieur Guilbeault, who is joining us at this hour. Also, we have the deputy minister, Madam Laurendeau. Returning with us also we have Mr. Piché and Mr. Ripley to help us in our testimony.

Let's start with the minister.

Mr. Guilbeault, the floor is yours for five minutes.

[Thomas Owen Ripley]

To be clear, the actual foreign ownership limitations have never been written into the act. This regulatory instrument that I spoke about has always existed to specify, for example, the actual percentages of foreign ownership that are allowed. It's complicated. If you go and look at it, you'll see there are certain percentages specified for direct control, indirect control, etc.

One of our goals with Bill C-10 moving forward is to ensure that our broadcasters are better able to compete. A big concern of ours is that right now—and I think the committee has heard witnesses speak on this—they're under huge stress and huge pressure. I alluded to some of the statistics in my opening remarks, with regard to the declines we are seeing. As you know, the Canadian Association of Broadcasters has commissioned a report talking about the closures they foresee in the near future.

One of our goals is to actually ensure that moving forward we can continue to have Canadian broadcasters, because they are really an important part of the system.

We have certainly heard loud and clear that some stakeholders are worried about the act moving away from a statement about wanting to protect and foster Canadian ownership of broadcasters. We've heard that. As I said, the intention behind our changing that was just to recognize that the Canadian broadcasting system is no longer closed from that global marketplace. Certainly the intention of the policy moving forward is to support Canadian broadcasters.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My questions are for Mr. Piché and Mr. Ripley.

In Bill C-10, the proposed paragraphs 3(1)(f), 3(1)(g) and 3(1)(h) talk about programming control.

Online broadcasters often hide behind complex algorithms for the programming they offer to their users. Are those undertakings considered responsible for their algorithms and their programming? In this situation, do you not feel that we should define who controls the programming a little better?