Afghanistan Committee on June 18th, 2008

[Gen Rick Hillier]

We weren't involved in combat operations right after they escaped. Certainly there has been combat up in the Arghandab district today. There are Taliban around there, and the Afghan forces and our troops are in contact with the Taliban up in that area. And we continue, by the way, to carry on operations in the Pashmul area and the Panjwai districts, where we've made some great progress.

For example, we are helping the Afghans build what we call Route Foster, and we've got perhaps 450 young Afghan men out there who every day, despite being threatened by the Taliban, come to work for a very small salary. They are building that road and actually paving that road. We continue those operations.

There is some combat up in the Arghandab district, but we have troops in contact with the Taliban just about every day in Kandahar province.

[Wajid Khan, Conservative, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Since the last elections in Pakistan, all the hierarchy--the government, the foreign minister, everybody--has acknowledged that this is not an American war; it is actually for the survival of Pakistan itself, and it's a very complex situation within. What is encouraging is that there have been 12 elected members from the FATA and eight senators. There are 20 of them there.

I have spoken to some of them, and also the military. They believe there has to be a political, socio-economic, and definitely a military solution. The military aspect is not being diminished.

Do you agree with their views?

[Gen Rick Hillier]

In fact I do, and I've had some significant discussions with their chief of general staff, General Kayani, about the challenge. The challenge is really almost the same, if not absolutely the same, as the challenge inside Afghanistan.

The military will bring about a temporary absence of offensive operations and warfighting, and then you build a nation underneath that, but you've got to do it with development and offer them a hope for the future, and you've got to do it with some infrastructure and jobs. In the FATA , up on that frontier, that's exactly what's needed, in General Kayani's view. He was trying to shape the Pakistani army towards being a significant part of that, and certainly in my view seemed focused on doing much more in the FATA, more quickly and more effectively.

Obviously we measure from the other side of the frontier, somewhat, to see what the results will be.

[The Chair, Conservative, Pierre Lemieux]

Thanks very much, General.

Monsieur Bachand, vous avez cinq minutes, s'il vous plaît.

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

General, during our committee's meeting yesterday, I questioned you about sexual assaults by the Afghan forces. You said that you had ordered your commanders to not turn their backs and do nothing if they became aware of sexual assaults being committed, and that you were encouraging them to send the message down the chain of command that those assaults had to be stopped and condemned. I believed you and I still believe you. Even if there is a chance that this will no longer happen, things have happened in the past. I questioned the minister about this the day before yesterday and his answer to me and other members was that there would be a full criminal investigation.

Have you been ordered by the Department of National Defence to investigate the Afghan forces' involvement in sexual assaults? When do you intend to begin that investigation?

The Bloc Québécois announced today that it was tabling a motion in the Standing Committee on National Defence asking that the two chaplains and Canadian officers who witnessed those events be asked to appear.

Do you agree that these individuals should appear before this committee in order to get to the bottom of this extremely delicate issue?

[Gen Rick Hillier]

Sir, thank you very much for the question.

I'd hesitate before I would say “things committed by” as in determination that, yes, they were. As far as I know, any of the things that we have heard have not been in direct witness of any actions, so I think we want to be very careful.

Yes, we are going to investigate. The minister and I have one view on this and we're going to investigate, and if there's any substance to what we have heard some soldiers say, we will try to get to the bottom of it.

What I did yesterday with my chain of command was simply reaffirm what my expectations are. But I go back and say we actually want to put a question mark over this, to start with. To my knowledge, from what I have heard so far, nobody is saying they have directly witnessed any kind of assault, etc. I wasn't only referring to potential sexual assaults yesterday; what I talked about was serious abuse. If our soldiers see it, as they saw in Bosnia, as they saw in Croatia, nobody is going to stand by. We're there to help Afghans, and if we are witness to serious abuse and anybody sees it, they immediately alert the chain of command, immediately take action, and then, supported by that chain of command, hand it to the Afghans to make sure they resolve it, with our assistance.

So I would repeat, yes, we're going to investigate it, and if there's any substance to it, we'll lay out whatever we find.

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

If parliamentarians wanted to conduct their own investigation by calling before the committee the two chaplains and a Canadian officer who said that Canadian officers ordered soldiers to ignore cases of sexual assault, to just turn away and look elsewhere, would you be in agreement? Would you allow the chaplains and Canadian officers who are prepared to do so to testify before the committee? Could you confirm that you will not pressure them any way whatsoever to prevent them from coming?

[Gen Rick Hillier]

Sir, if you want my honest opinion, I think it would be a total waste of time right now. I tell you that. I think you would be chasing a little wisp of fog, thinking it was smoke, without determining first of all if there's a fire there. I think that's what we should first do, determine if there's something there that we missed, or something there that people heard about. If we go from there and find that yes, there was, we'll lay that out, and then you could determine whether you want to do something within Parliament or not. But I would say that at this stage that would be premature in the extreme. That's only my personal opinion, because I think you're chasing a will-o'-the-wisp.

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

And you wouldn't permit them to come and testify in front of the committee if it started next week or the week after.

[Gen Rick Hillier]

I'm not sure what my authorities are in forbidding people from coming to testify in front of Parliament. I'd have to walk through that, sir.

[The Chair, Conservative, Pierre Lemieux]

Thank you very much, General.

This brings us to the end of the second round, colleagues.

As chair, General, on behalf of this Special Committee on the Canadian Mission in Afghanistan, I'd like to take this last opportunity to thank you for your outstanding service to Canada. As I mentioned before, it has lasted more than 35 years. You've been an exceptional Chief of the Defence Staff, and you've consistently championed the men and women who serve in our Canadian Forces. They've performed as well as they do because of their training, but also in great part because of your leadership.

So on behalf of my colleagues, I wish you all the best on your retirement. I suspect that you will remain busy. Once again, I'd like to thank you for taking time out of your schedule to be with us tonight.

[Gen Rick Hillier]

Sir, thank you very much for that.

Can I just say, not only was it my job during these past three and a half years, it was my passion. What am I going to do in my retirement? I am going to run in Saint-Jean and I'm going to beat Mr. Bachand a hundred to nothing in the election.

[The Chair, Conservative, Pierre Lemieux]

Very good. Thank you.

Colleagues, I'll suspend the meeting for a few minutes.

[The Chair, Conservative, Pierre Lemieux]

Colleagues, the meeting is resumed.

In this second hour of our committee meeting, I'd like to welcome Yves Brodeur, who is the assistant deputy minister of the Afghanistan Task Force for the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade; and Stephen Wallace, the vice-president of the Afghanistan Task Force for the Canadian International Development Agency.

I'll ask Mr. Brodeur to give us an opening statement, followed by Mr. Wallace, and then, colleagues, we'll move through two rounds of questioning. One round will be seven minutes, followed by a five-minute round.

With that, Monsieur Brodeur, le micro est à vous.

[Yves Brodeur, Assistant Deputy Minister, Afghanistan Task Force, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Chair, members of the committee, thank you for giving me and my colleague from CIDA, Stephen Wallace, this opportunity to brief you on the Paris conference.

On June 12, the governments of France and Afghanistan, alongside the UN, co-hosted a high-level conference on Afghanistan. The Minister of Foreign Affairs of Canada, the Honourable David Emerson, attended the conference, along with representatives of 85 states and organizations, including all major troop and development assistance contributors, the World Bank, the IMF, NATO, as well as regional states, including Pakistan and Iran.

President Sarkozy, UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon, and President Karzai opened the event, which was presided over by French foreign minister Bernard Kouchner and Afghan foreign minister Spanta.

The conference was a seminal event in the international community relationship with Afghanistan. It wasn't, of course, easy to brief international partners on Canada's approach to Afghanistan. It was also a valuable occasion for advocacy on several issues of importance to Canada.

In my short presentation today I will discuss how the conference fits into the current situation of Afghanistan, outline Canadian objectives for the conference, and explain how Canada's main objectives of the conference were met.

Mr. Chair, allow me to begin by providing a bit of context on the situation in Afghanistan leading up to the Paris conference.

First, it is important to remember that nearly seven years have passed since the ouster of the Taliban.

Second, the Afghanistan Compact was signed at a similar conference that took place in London two and half years ago. We're now at the halfway point of the compact's five-year framework for international cooperation with Afghanistan. The compact remains the shared foundation for engagement between Afghanistan and the international community. It contains a series of benchmarks focused on security, governance, and social and economic development.

Third, in March 2008 the Security Council adopted a more focused mandate for the UN assistance mission in Afghanistan, the UNAMA. It also endorsed the appointment of Kai Eide, a distinguished and respected Norwegian diplomat, as the new top UN official in the country.

Fourth, in April 2008 NATO allies reaffirmed their joint commitment to Afghanistan at the Bucharest Summit. NATO partners jointly agreed on the following principles to guide the Afghan mission: a firm and shared long-term commitment; support for enhanced Afghan leadership and responsibility; a comprehensive approach by the international community, bringing together civilian and military efforts; and increased cooperation and engagement with Afghanistan's neighbours, especially Pakistan.

The Paris conference was an opportunity to reflect on accomplishments achieved over the first half of the Afghanistan Compact term, but also on the challenges to be faced in the second half--and there are many, as the events of the last weekend demonstrated. It was also an opportunity for the Afghan government to launch the Afghanistan national development strategy, ANDS, a long-term plan for social and economic recovery of the country.

This important document reflects more than two years of rigorous consultations, a process that the World Bank and IMF have lauded. It is intended to outline an in-depth, multi-faceted strategy across all sectors of development in Afghanistan.

Mr. Chair, I will now turn to Canada's objectives at the conference. First, let me just say that, from Canada's perspective, the Paris Conference was a success. First and foremost, given the current situation, the Canadian government wanted to ensure that the major international and Afghan actors accept the need for a focused, prioritized approach.

In that context, Paris was a perfect opportunity for the Minister of Foreign Affairs and International Trade to communicate Canada's six priorities, as laid out in the first quarterly report tabled in Parliament on June 10. Minister Emerson was able to communicate the priorities in his speech to the assembly, as well as during bilateral meetings and to the international media. Canada's approach received praise from Afghans as well as from our international partners.

A second objective at the conference was to confirm our position as one of the top bilateral donors overall. In that report, Canada does pledge a contribution of $600 million —aligned with our priorities and the ANDS—which brings our 10-year total up to $1.9 billion.

Canadian spending in the next three years will, among other things: build the capacity of the Afghan national security forces; strengthen the government's ability to deliver basic water, education and job-oriented economic growth services; support efforts to enhance Afghan-Pakistani dialogue and border management; and support the urgent rehabilitation of Kandahar's main water source—the Dalah Dam—and its irrigation and canal system.

My CIDA colleague Stephen Wallace can speak to our development programming in more detail.

Our third objective was to clearly express our strong support for the newly appointed Special Representative to Afghanistan of the UN Secretary General, Mr. Kai Eide, as the lead international actor in Afghanistan. It is important to note that all the participants, including President Karzaï, expressed their clear and strong support to him.

Minister Emerson also reiterated Canada's support for the key role the United Nations must play in Afghanistan. The minister also used the opportunity to communicate a number of additional messages to the Government of Afghanistan and the international community.

In conclusion, the Paris Conference marked a turning point in the international community's relationship with Afghanistan. Mr. Chair, Canada played an important role at the conference, as it is doing in Afghanistan.

I'd like to thank you once again for this opportunity to brief you on the Paris conference. I look forward to answering your questions.

I will leave the floor to my colleague from CIDA.

Merci.

[The Chair, Conservative, Pierre Lemieux]

Very good. Merci beaucoup, monsieur Brodeur.

We go to you, Mr. Wallace.

[Stephen Wallace, Vice-President, Afghanistan Task Force, Canadian International Development Agency]

Thank you very much, Chair. It's a real pleasure to be here this evening.

Thank you very much for this opportunity. It is an honour to be here this evening.

Let me just take this opportunity to expand on some of my colleagues' remarks, as well as those of Mr. David Mulroney in connection with his recent appearance before this committee, to give you some details on Canada's approach in relation to the six priorities that have already been discussed.

First let me touch on the issue of alignment of these six priorities with discussions in Paris and with specified local Afghan needs.

The first thing I would say on this is that we've taken great care to ensure that these six priorities are fully consistent with those of the Government of Afghanistan. These priorities are clearly articulated in the Afghanistan Compact and also the Afghanistan national development strategy, which was discussed in detail in Paris. There the government underlined their need to achieve greater prioritization within that development strategy and to be able to provide some focus, which we thought was very important and which we support. We are trying to demonstrate this commitment in earnest by working to focus our programming in turn around a very targeted set of objectives.

In Paris, the Afghan government emphasized the importance of having the international community increase its support for two elements of that development strategy in particular: infrastructure and rural development in Afghanistan, with a view to providing direct, enhanced well-being of Afghans and their access to economic opportunity.

Canada's initiative to rehabilitate the Dahla Dam will help to address this need in Kandahar province in a tangible way by providing a secure water supply of benefit to the majority of the population of the province, by generating over 10,000 seasonal jobs in relation to the rehabilitation effort, and by ensuring adequate irrigation for at least 10,000 hectares of productive land on an ongoing basis.

In addition, the development strategy highlights the need to strengthen the education sector. In recent months, the Afghan government has asked Canada to take a leadership role in this sector, a role that we have readily accepted. We are now the top contributor to EQUIP, the national program that aims to build schools, improve teacher training, gain better access for girls, and enhance the educational system as a whole. We plan to increase our support to EQUIP both in Kandahar and nationally and to complement this support with specific programs to strengthen capacity and innovation.

Canada is also mindful that to Afghans good governance, in the end, means a capable government that delivers basic services. Our program will help to support national elections and build institutions at a sub-national level, with the focus on Kandahar. A more secure and better-governed Kandahar is very much key to ensuring a viable Afghan state at the national level, so Canada is increasing its support for Kandahar programs from the current level of 17% to 50% by next year to support this overall aim.

Allow me to say a few words about security in the context of aid delivery in Kandahar.

While we have been delivering concrete development programs in Kandahar for some time—and thanks to your offices, Mr. Chair, and that of the clerk, we have just distributed our June 2008 update of our programming results for both Kandahar province and nationwide--we also want to do much more, and we recognize that security remains and will remain a challenge for Canada's overall mission.

The report to Parliament that was recently tabled stated that “security situations are expected to remain stable at best, and might grow worse in coming months in some provinces”. Security has always been, and will continue to be, a key consideration in the planning and delivery of projects undertaken by CIDA. It is one reason we have focused so explicitly and so much on ensuring full community participation, on ensuring that there is a strong leadership role for local government, and that we focus on development priorities that mobilize broad public support. Our approach to implementation will be flexible. It needs to be flexible and iterative in keeping with evolving local conditions.

Mr. Chair, please allow me to spend a few minutes talking about aid effectiveness, a subject that was addressed in Paris and discussed at length.

The international community and the Afghan government have recognized that it is critical to work better together to improve the delivery of assistance in Afghanistan. The Afghanistan Compact and the Afghanistan National Development Strategy have done a clear job of establishing the basic principles of aid effectiveness, and Canada's aid program is based on these tenets:

—first, our assistance is directly aligned with Afghan government priorities and taken fully into account by Afghan planning processes;

—second, we will work closely with the Afghan government and the donor community to ensure that assistance is transparent, accountable and focused on results.

Canada has therefore been actively engaged in various sectoral working groups to improve the coordination of initiatives in Afghanistan, including a leadership role in revitalizing the Joint Coordination and Monitoring Board that oversees the implementation of the Afghanistan Compact.

We believe, as my colleague Mr. Brodeur mentioned, that the Special Representative to Afghanistan of the UN Secretary General, Mr. Kai Eide, has an instrumental role to play in improving the coordination of development assistance initiatives in Afghanistan. He will have Canada's full support.

Let me conclude, Mr. Chairman, by talking a little bit about accountability for results. We are now the third largest national donor in Afghanistan and we do have an important contribution to make in this area. At the Paris conference, the Afghan government committed itself to ensuring full transparency in how aid is received from the international community, how it is utilized, and to improve its own capacity for domestic revenue generation.

International donors, including Canada, also have the responsibility to demonstrate accountability for results. Oversight of CIDA's development program, therefore, is a key and essential element of our work, and one through which we have a comprehensive verification process. We have now completed with our key partners over 150 audits, evaluations, reviews, and assessments of our major programs over the course of the past five years. We'll continue to measure and communicate project level results, such at the ones you see in front of you, on a regular basis and we will be contributing directly to the benchmarks that will form part of our quarterly reporting to Parliament.

We're conscious of the challenges that we face in Afghanistan. This is one of the most difficult environments we've faced in Canada's aid program. But with our new priorities as a guide, backed by a stronger field presence, very clear objectives, and the devolution of authorities, we believe that our efforts in Afghanistan will have a sharper focus, strong accountability, and with coherent planning, will bring a more effective approach to our mission from now until 2011.

Monsieur le président, I would like to thank you very much for this opportunity to brief you on the Paris conference and issues related to the long-term success of Afghanistan's development. I look forward to answering questions from committee members.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Pierre Lemieux]

Thank you very much, Mr. Wallace.

We'll now move to our first round of seven minutes, with Mr. Martin.

[Keith Martin, Liberal, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

Thank you very much, monsieur le président.

Thank you both for being here.

I especially want to thank you, Mr. Wallace, for being here while you are injured. So thank you for coming here.

[Stephen Wallace]

I won't be playing squash for a while.

[Keith Martin, Liberal, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

I have a couple of questions, and I will be sharing my time with Ms. Minna.

We know that corruption, conflict, and lack of capacity are three areas that erode any ability for development to occur in a long-term sustainable fashion. So I'd like to focus on two parts of that.

On the corruption side, perhaps you could tell us what is being done to remove or prevent corrupt officials from gaining access to election and getting positions in Mr. Karzai's government. We are undermining our ability to win the hearts and minds of the people if we stand by or allow corrupt officials who are destructive to the future of the country to gain access and be elected to the government or to gain non-elected positions within the government.

My second question deals with the security aspect. We know there are really four pillars of Afghanistan's security: the army, police, corrections, and the judiciary. The army is being dealt with fairly effectively. But I'd like to ask, Mr. Wallace, about your very pressing comment that, at best, we're seeing stability on the security side. What is being done to improve and address our ability to train Afghan police, the Afghan corrections service, and a competent judiciary, which I think are critical to the long-term stability and security of the country?

Thank you.

[Stephen Wallace]

Thank you very much. I think those are two key questions.

Mr. Chairman, I'd like to share my response with my colleague Mr. Brodeur on both the corruption and the police and judiciary sides. There was an overall context in Paris on corruption that Mr. Brodeur can give, and then I'll come right down into how this relates to the development programming.

[Yves Brodeur]

Thank you, Stephen.

That's a very important question. It was really at the centre of the discussions and the preoccupation of several delegations in Paris. Corruption is an issue that was raised with President Karzai in unequivocal terms, both during bilaterals as well as during the plenary by, I would say, most if not all the delegations that were around that table.

The message was actually quite clear, I think, that Afghanistan has to actually assume responsibility and make sure that measures are being implemented to reduce corruption, as you say, to make sure that corrupted officials are essentially fired and that proper measures are also put in place to account for the assistance that is being provided.

President Karzai actually made it clear also in his statement that Afghanistan took that issue very seriously, that he intended to put in place a number of measures to address the issue. Also, I think the message was, although not said in so many words, that he understood the link established between the need for Afghanistan to demonstrate progress on that front and the capacity or the will of countries to proceed and provide assistance.

There is work being done. In the case of Canada, we've been insisting a lot with Afghan officials for the need to actually put in place a system under which they can vet appointments and make sure that people who are being appointed are clean and will do their job in a way that's compatible with international standards.

[Stephen Wallace]

If I may, Mr. Chair, I'd like to bring this down to a very practical level. Clearly, corruption is always a risk. That importance is recognized, and the need for both immediate action and the understanding that this is a long-term issue to turn around, I think, is clearly shared more broadly. The question is, what do you do about it? I believe that is going to be the focus of what we need to intensify an effort on.

What we're doing right now are three essential things. One is that we have had a focus on building local financial management and accountability capacity within government. There was a recent assessment, completed only one month ago, by the World Bank that tracked the progress within the Government of Afghanistan on its public expenditure and financial accountability system from 2005 to December 2007. They've made progress. There are indicators of improvement on things like procurement and transparent planning, budget control. These are fundamentals of good governance.

So they have been on an improving line, but they have a way to go, and our focus on building that capacity on accountability and capability, on sound public administration, we think, is the right way to go.

We also believe it's going to be really critical that we continue to choose the right kinds of programs and the right kinds of partners that both have a track record of competence and also have the right kind of oversight functions attached to them. One good example is the Afghanistan Reconstruction Trust Fund, which works with the Ministry of Finance but is a trust fund that is managed with the bank and is audited by PricewaterhouseCoopers. So we need to look at these kinds of programs that build capacity but also have very strong oversight and a track record.

Last, you need to follow through. When I was mentioning in my opening remarks, Mr. Chair, that we must have a rigorous system of evaluations and audits and monitoring reviews and assessments, it's to be able to get enough information to follow up, and to follow up with those programs that are weak, to build that capacity or, frankly, to reduce or stop them when they're not performing.

Those are the kinds of things, from a practical point of view, that we need to work on, that address the issue in the short term on corruption but also build capacity over the longer term at the same time.

The second question, Mr. Chair, had to do with the work on policing and the justice sector. There again, the lead has been with Foreign Affairs, so perhaps my colleague Mr. Brodeur could deal with that one as well.

[Yves Brodeur]

There again, police training is an issue that is coming up regularly at international meetings, one that is really critical. We all understand that the Afghans also understand the importance of training a competent and professional police force.

It's progressing. It's not progressing as fast as we would wish and it's not progressing as well as we would wish. It is an issue we're working very hard on, together with partners: the RCMP and Correctional Service Canada. We trained last year more than 600 National Police officials at the PRT in Kandahar.

The problem we have right now is that essentially training police really means training them for basic survival skills. The police are seen by the Taliban as being the weak link in the security system, and therefore they're targeted more than the ANA, for instance; therefore, their rate of casualty is much higher. So you have to start from far away.

Many of the recruits are illiterate, so that is an impediment to their training, and you have to address it. Many of them are also people who come from very poor families, so corruption is an issue too. We've been working very hard to try to provide funding to pay salaries, to equip them, to recruit good people, to screen them, and to train them.

We've worked together with other partners. EUPOL, for instance, is about to launch a big mission in Afghanistan to support our training efforts; the United States is engaged in that effort, as General Hillier explained; and we're pressing forward. It will take some time before we actually reach the level we want to see.