Evidence of meeting #12 for Special Committee on the Canadian Mission in Afghanistan in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was going.

A recording is available from Parliament.

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3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rick Casson

We'll call the meeting to order.

I apologize for the delay. There were some technical difficulties with our sound system, but they seem to have been sorted out, so we'll get started.

Today is the 12th meeting of the Special Committee on the Canadian Mission in Afghanistan....

The interpreters are having trouble again, so we are not ready to go. We'll stand down for a second.

Okay, we're good.

We have with us Minister Day, who is the chairman of the cabinet committee on Afghanistan. We welcome you, Mr. Day.

Mr. Day is with us until 4:30, colleagues, and then we have some committee business to deal with in camera after Minister Day.

Minister Day, you know the process; you've been at many committee meetings. We give you an opportunity to say a few words and then we have a ten-minute round. I hope we can get to all parties, and then you can make your commitment at 4:30.

Sir, the floor is yours. Thanks for being here.

3:40 p.m.

Okanagan—Coquihalla B.C.

Conservative

Stockwell Day ConservativeMinister of International Trade

Thank you, Mr. Chair. It is an honour for me to be here with you and before this committee.

I say this sincerely, this committee is very important because it provides us with advice and, at times, with criticisms, but always in a spirit of improving the mission in Afghanistan.

I know that, at times, we deal with partisan topics, but I feel that all members of the committee here present understand that this is a matter of great importance. You very often work in a non-partisan way and I respect that.

Mr. Chairman, understanding that there is some difficulty with the sound system, and knowing I have to leave at 4:30, as was previously agreed, I hope members won't be too saddened if I abbreviate my comments somewhat to allow maximum time for input from members.

I see on many of your desks the fifth quarterly report on our activities in Afghanistan. As you are probably aware, but it deserves mentioning, the quarterly report process is a result of the independent commission that was put together to give us some direction on how we as a government and members of Parliament should engage ourselves relative to Afghanistan. It recommended this series of reports. We can take some pride--using the word properly--in knowing that among NATO nations it has been said that we are the leader in transparency of reporting, tracking progress, and the degree of accountability that goes with that. So each of you is responsible for and has some share in that process, and you can take some sense of pride in being involved in that.

You'll have noticed as you read through the report that certain goals and projects are identified, and whether we are on track to attain those goals or not is clearly pointed out. We don't make excuses if goals are not attained or a certain benchmark is not achieved. That is noted, commented on, and reported. But I think we will agree that transparency is there, and that is quite the way it should be.

There are things that stand out in that report. People ask whether there has been progress in Afghanistan and what types of things have been accomplished. Unfortunately, probably because the progress is so detailed and faithfully reported on, there is often not a lot of coverage--I won't say there's not a lot of interest--on the progress report itself and the various achievements.

When I talk to people about Afghanistan, I talk about the fact that we don't make all of the benchmarks in every quarter, but I mention, for instance, that 12 schools have been completed already. We've seen in this last quarter that some 369,000 children have received vaccinations against polio. In the last quarter, more than 11,000 people went through literacy programs. We have almost achieved the 2011 goal, where it points out that almost 500 individuals have received micro-financing in certain areas. The construction of a health care centre was completed. The work that goes into preparing the roads for heavy equipment and everything that will be involved in the reconstruction of the Dahla Dam is proceeding.

None of these projects is free from risk. The Taliban/al-Qaeda extremists are out there all the time to literally kill, maim, or destroy men, women, and children who are involved in any of these construction projects.

I believe these are significant achievements. You can also see, because some of these goals have not been met, that we have significant challenges, and we have a way to go to achieve those various goals.

When I have the opportunity to speak to audiences--as I'm sure you do--and tell them that over five million children have been vaccinated against polio in Afghanistan, most people are shocked; they've never heard that. When I tell them that Canadians are involved in the reconstruction and renovation of a dam that will bring irrigation and power to thousands of people in a huge valley, they're unaware of that. When I talk about the thousands who have gone through literacy programs, when I talk about the percentage of combat missions in our area of responsibility in the Kandahar PRT area, they're surprised at the percentage of those now conducted by Afghanistan nationals, either army or policing. It says to me that although we have many communication exercises, and you will see some of them listed in your quarterly report, largely that type of information doesn't get through. It is important that we have times and opportunities to talk about those, and to talk about the challenges and the areas where we could be doing better.

As I turn the floor over to you and look to your questions and your advice and your guidance, I think it would serve us well to reflect on why we are in Afghanistan, because over time we can lose track of the fact that the United Nations asked the NATO group to be in Afghanistan. First and foremost, the Taliban had to be removed from that area; from that particular country, over 90% of all the heroin in the world was being exported. But even as horrific as that is, as equally gripping is the fact that the majority of violent terrorism was being exported from that area of the world. People were trained and exported, and their activities even reached our continent, as happened with 9/11 in New York, when Canadians also joined people from all over the world who were numbered among those slaughtered on that particular day.

Our mission there is to work towards the time and the day when the people of Afghanistan are able to provide for their own security, their own care, and their own needs. There has been progress towards that goal, though at times it's been halting and at times the security situation has not always improved, but in fact has regressed. I think it's important to keep that in mind as we look to the days and months ahead.

On the very question of the success of the mission, in other words, countries working and supporting Afghanistan to be in control of its own destiny, its own security, in my mind I think it's important to realize--and we make no mistake about this--that should that mission fail, the emboldenment of terrorist forces, especially Taliban-type, al-Qaeda-related forces, would be something that would be nerve-racking to contemplate. There's no question that if the mission fails, and if Afghanistan and the good people there who want to secure their own security are not able to do that, there would be a full-scale return to terrorism and terrorists being trained and exported from that area all over the world, as they did before there was intervention. The encouragement that would give to similar forces in other countries, some of which are failed states right now and some of which are at risk of that, would be formidable.

It is my view that often we hear, quite rightly, about the courageous job the Canadian men and women who are there are doing, but it is also the right thing that they are doing. They originally were sent there by a previous government, the Liberal government, and we supported that. Our troops need to be encouraged. Not only do we acknowledge their bravery and their courage, but in fact they are doing the right thing, and we are with them and support them in that. I like to say that, and I think it's important to say that, everywhere we go. It doesn't mean the mission itself is above analysis, by any means, but the incredible work they do should be acknowledged. Other countries point to Canada and our troops there as the troops, the men and women in uniform, who are a standout among the many nations that are engaged there, both for the sacrifice they've already paid and for the manner in which they conduct themselves. I just want to acknowledge that and have that on the record today, Mr. Chairman.

I look forward to your questions, your guidance, and any other direction you may have for us.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rick Casson

Thank you for that, and thanks for being brief, Mr. Minister.

We have exactly 40 minutes, and we have four slots to fill of 10 minutes each when the minister is here.

We'll start with the official opposition. Mr. Rae.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Bob Rae Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

I have one question, Minister, and then my colleague Mr. Wilfert and other colleagues will be able to get questions in.

Minister, I wonder if you could tell us what process you plan to follow to get the consensus of the House with respect to the mission post-2011. As you know, the parliamentary resolution only provides for what the mission is going to be doing until 2011. There's now a critical question, increasingly critical as we head into 2010, as to what plan the government has to consult the House and get a mandate for a renewed mission.

Can you fill us in on that, please?

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Stockwell Day Conservative Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC

As you look to the days ahead, Parliament clearly has to be involved in this. The very fact that we're here right now, the fact that we have a task force, of which I'm chair, the fact that you are here as a special committee--these are all a result of parliamentary discussion, debate, and then decision. That is going to be a key element of what we are going to continue to do.

The long-range development programs are in place now. Many of those are already there, with end points in terms of the achievement level. Many of those will stay.

This committee is involved, and it needs to be critically involved in having input to the ongoing progress. As the Prime Minister has said, we will be there after the military mission for human development, social development, and working with the institutional capacity of that country.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Bob Rae Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

Presumably the Afghan task force, of which you're the chairman, is looking at options. Do we stay in Kandahar, not stay in Kandahar? Do we focus on Kabul? Do we focus on training? What is the balance going to be of the renewed mission?

It would be helpful if we had some sense of what those options were. Are you considering putting out a white paper, or something that would give us a sense of what those options are?

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Stockwell Day Conservative Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC

Well, over time, Bob, we'll see if it's going to come to that level of official approach in terms of a white paper.

The motion, which is the motion that guides us, indicates that by July of 2011 we will start to draw down and redeploy Afghan forces into the area of Kandahar, and that militarily we must be out of that area by the end of the year. We already know that's in play. The discussion has begun, not only in Parliament, not only here, but really across the country--at NATO, at the United Nations--in terms of the ongoing future of countries like ours in Afghanistan.

The time is ripe for consideration from this committee, the participants here, to give us your views, your direction, and your suggestions. I'm not presuming the role of this committee or the role of Parliament, but I can well imagine another motion or another form of official parliamentary direction. As I've said, we've already indicated that in the areas of social development, community development, human rights, and institutional capacity, we are there for the long term. Many of our plans are in place, and they are going to take--as long as we remain there--a number of years to achieve. It's a work in progress.

If there is to be significant departure from that or an increase in any of those specific areas, this committee, among others, would play a key part in it.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rick Casson

Mr. Wilfert.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Bryon Wilfert Liberal Richmond Hill, ON

Minister, thank you for coming. I wish you could stay longer, and I hope that because you're here for less than an hour, we will have you back sooner rather than later.

First of all, with regard to the runoff elections in 17 days, the Kandahar region had one of the worst turnouts, and of course it is one of the worst areas for security in terms of getting people to come out to vote. What steps do you think can and will be taken by our forces and the officials in Kandahar to try to increase participation?

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Stockwell Day Conservative Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC

We've had very strong assurance from our security forces and others that the process will be protected. I don't think anybody should be naive. Those who hate the fact that people can have freedom and can choose for themselves will be out to try to destroy and to hurt.

When you look at the overall participation rate, and final figures were out today—we're just looking at those right now—it's something along the line of 38%, 39%. Sometimes there can be an initial reflection of “that's not very high”. Well, in the last election in Vancouver--and I'm from B.C. and I love Vancouver--the turnout was less than that. I don't think that delegitimizes the mayor. In the last election in Halifax it was 26%. I don't think that makes the process in Halifax any less legitimate. And those people who went to vote in those cities did not do so under threat of their life, of their families being killed, kidnapped, or homes being burnt to the ground and their livelihood destroyed. All things considered, I think we need to take that into effect.

We would have liked to have seen a higher turnout. We would have liked to have seen a higher turnout in the last federal election in Canada. So let's just keep that in mind.

We shouldn't be surprised that in one of the areas of intense activity, as far as Taliban extremist activities is concerned, where we see everything from girls going to school having acid thrown into their faces, schools being burnt down, elderly women being decapitated, the intentional slaughter of children.... I mean, we are dealing with a demented and perverted force—being the extremist Taliban element—and they are very active in this area where Canadians have paid a high price.

As I said, we hope it will go well. Security will be provided at optimum levels, and I think we should not be naive about things that may happen.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Bryon Wilfert Liberal Richmond Hill, ON

The question is whether or not the institutional capacity is there. Given the low turnout before and given 17 days to go--and I don't disagree with Taliban threats--in fact it really raises the question of legitimacy of the election process and whether or not the government, which is already viewed in some quarters as questionable, will in fact be able to survive this. And then it's contingent upon...which really is my second question, Minister. The Institute for the Study of War released a report in September of this year that indicated that what will happen with the election will depend on whether or not the United States may or may not add additional forces in Afghanistan and whether or not they even view whatever the results are as being legitimate enough to put in American soldiers. Could you comment on that?

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Stockwell Day Conservative Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC

Yes. If the existing forces are to be augmented by an increase in American forces, which apparently the administration of the U.S. is considering right now, existing forces will be able to provide the necessary security.

In terms of legitimacy, I think I've reflected on that. When you look at percentage turnout and the extreme challenge to an individual even going to vote—if you question the election based on the turnout, then you have to question many elections in the western world. So the turnout, though we wanted to see higher, when you weigh that all in...I don't question the legitimacy.

On the process itself, what we saw with the Electoral Complaints Commission and the Independent Election Commission, both of which were run by Afghanistan...the very fact that you would have a complaints commission take all those complaints...there were something like 23,906 polling stations. They did a survey. They decided that at 210 of those polling stations, the fraud was so significant from all quarters that in fact they weren't even going to count the ballots. Even before voting started, the Electoral Complaints Commission was taking action on complaints relative to certain candidates, who then dropped out because of the complaints that came forward. The fact that over 19,000 of those polling stations' votes are being accepted, something like 5.5 million votes are being accepted as legitimate.... I don't question the legitimacy of that. There is the fact that President Karzai has accepted. He got within a whisper of that 50%, and every indication we have today is that he has accepted that. As far as we know anyway, the second round will go between him and Mr. Abdullah Abdullah. I don't question the legitimacy.

I certainly hope the people themselves are going to vote. We encourage them. We hope they are not unnerved by the threats to their lives and their families and their livelihood. And we wish them well in their pursuit.

4 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rick Casson

Thank you, Minister. You're right on time.

Mr. Bachand, you have 10 minutes.

4 p.m.

Bloc

Claude Bachand Bloc Saint-Jean, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I am going to share the time I have available with my colleague, Ms. Lalonde.

Thank you for being here, Mr. Minister.

We have quite carefully studied the targets and the progress indicators for January, February, March, and those we have before us today.

Even though I was not very good at science, my science professors used to say that, if you wanted to do studies over time, you always had to base them on the same data. It seems to me that we are not using the same data here. Let me explain. I think the targets and the progress indicators have changed or have been watered down. For example, if, in a previous report, performance in security was established by the number of districts under control and if now we are focusing on operational performance, it is not the same thing. Previously, we used to look at the number of districts in which things were moving forward and we calculated progress accordingly. Your report no longer does that. Now we are focusing on operational performance. So the data are different. It is hard for members to draw comparisons because we are no longer using the same data.

I have other examples, like the percentage of security operations conducted by the ANA. Your baseline is that 45% of security operations are conducted by the ANA. You tell us that the quarterly result is that 71% of security operations are conducted by the ANA. But your target for 2011 is 65%. You tell us that we are at 71% now, that we will be at 65% in 2011, and that this is progress. I do not see where the progress is.

In addition, the area of responsibility has changed and it will change more and more as the Americans arrive. Canadian soldiers used to have responsibility for all the area and all the Kandahar district. From now on, they will have the city and the surrounding area, and the Americans will look after the rest. It is easy to say that we will achieve our targets because some of the data is different from the previous report. Some data will change, and, as a result, you can expect things to go very well in 2011, because you are failing to account for the significant help that we will receive from the Americans.

Do you agree with me that, in the document we are studying today, the progress indicators and the targets are not the same as they were for the January, February and March period?

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

Stockwell Day Conservative Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC

First, Mr. Bachand, I guess your professor had a different way of gathering results. Perhaps he got marks from other universities, from other professors, or from other studies, but certainly not from a war.

You cannot lose sight of this. The vast majority of the levels we are seeking to attain have not changed. Sometimes, there are changes when they are necessary, that is one of our requests. if there is a change in our goals, we absolutely have to declare it, and also explain why.

You are right to provide the example of the increase in American forces. They have arrived. That means that, for the first or second quarters, Canadians were responsible for an area like that. But with the arrival of the Americans, the area that we are responsible for may change. If that is the case, we will say so.

4:05 p.m.

Bloc

Claude Bachand Bloc Saint-Jean, QC

So the targets will be different.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

Stockwell Day Conservative Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC

Yes.

4:05 p.m.

Bloc

Claude Bachand Bloc Saint-Jean, QC

When you consider your target for 2011, are you taking the American support into account? It is easy to paint a rosy picture for 2011 if you know that you will have help in the first, second or third quarters.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

Stockwell Day Conservative Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC

It is important to show that and to be clear, for the reasons you mention. But our soldiers were already in the country; other troops have now arrived and it is no longer solely our responsibility. So our focus will change.

You mentioned the degree to which Afghan forces have led combat operations in a region. It is now at 71%. The forecast was for 65% in 2011. So, at present, we are clearly ahead of our target. But we are going to keep watching how things evolve because, if the security situation continues to deteriorate, the percentage may perhaps be different in the sixth or seventh quarters.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rick Casson

Madame Lalonde.

4:05 p.m.

Bloc

Francine Lalonde Bloc La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Day.

Let me start by saying that, having this divided up into micro-objectives may look good, but it makes it difficult to assess and to get a good idea of the development that has gone on.

That is what I think, after having tried to understand it. But we debated this in the House the other day, and it seemed to me that people were in agreement that this war cannot be won with weapons.

We may be able to win minds through development—at least, we hope so. But, at the same time, we cannot develop schools and the like without security.

So how do you think that we will be able to convince the people that there is hope?

From what I read, when we started, in 2001, 2002, 2003, women could walk around without wearing a burka. Now they no longer dare to do that. If they go out, they have to wear a burka. No development indicators there. You must have thought about that.

How do you respond to that?

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Stockwell Day Conservative Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC

Of course, there is a major debate about how to win the war and how to achieve security in Afghanistan.

We cannot win it unless we operate on two fronts. As you said, the Afghan people have to be firm in the belief that they can live in security, and security cannot be established without soldiers fighting the Taliban and al-Qaeda. That is why we have to do both. It is not one or the other, as you know.

We have seen progress, but we need to see even more.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rick Casson

We'll go to the government side for 10 minutes with Mr. Hawn.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for being with us again.

I have a couple of points to pick up on from some of the comments that were made.

If we're over target--if our ultimate goal was 65% and we're at 71%--although it's an obvious statement, we'll keep working to get it even better. We're not just going to allow it to degrade to a longer-term target.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Stockwell Day Conservative Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC

That's true, and Mr. Bachand raised some valid concerns. This is why we've been clear that if there's going to be a change of benchmark for some reason, the reasons for it have to be stated. The vast majority of benchmarks have not changed, but some have reason to be stated.

We'll watch over the next quarter and take advice from this committee and others on that particular benchmark and the 65%. If it looks like this is going to be consistent in terms of the number of operations led by Afghans, then obviously we should raise that benchmark to continue to see progress. This is what this is all about, which again reflects back on Madame Lalonde's question.

You're not going to have progress without security. That's why the military aspect will continue, but I believe we've shown, and the Canadian example has been clear, that we believe this is not entirely a military mission. That's why we're so heavily involved on the development side.

There are two competing schools of thought, and this is what the U.S. administration is dealing with right now. You have the new report from General McChrystal talking about the type of counter-insurgency operation that has been relatively successful in Iraq. The Canadian Forces have done that just outside Kandahar City in a place called Deh-e-Bagh. They moved in there with Afghan forces and basically secured the area, secured the village. When it was secured, they then moved ahead with, for instance, the establishment of solar-powered street lights. We might not think that's a big deal, but that is a very big deal if at night there can be lights on your street. They put a number of positive developments into that particular village, and we have achieved what we believe is peace and security in that village.

As we know, peace and security requires eternal vigilance, but we have demonstrated, with Afghan forces significantly taking responsibility, that an area can be secured and the standard of life can be increased. Teachers can go into the area. Schools can be maintained with some degree of confidence. On a small portion, the Canadian Forces have shown that they have won the confidence of the citizens in that area, and I believe they deserve credit for this. That's not true of all the areas we're in, where we haven't won that confidence, but this is the process. It's village-to-village, city-to-city progress that needs to take place if the people of Afghanistan are going to be in control of their own destiny and their own security.