Evidence of meeting #15 for Special Committee on the Canadian Mission in Afghanistan in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was detainees.
A recording is available from Parliament.
3:55 p.m.
First Secretary, Embassy of Canada to the United States of America
Well, on the military side, General Hillier and General Gauthier. On the civilian side, you had Mr. Mulroney, Margaret Bloodworth, and Colleen Swords. Those were the senior people who seemed to be handling this issue.
3:55 p.m.
Liberal
Ujjal Dosanjh Liberal Vancouver South, BC
And remind me, Margaret Bloodworth was the special national security adviser to the Prime Minister?
3:55 p.m.
First Secretary, Embassy of Canada to the United States of America
That's correct.
3:55 p.m.
Liberal
Ujjal Dosanjh Liberal Vancouver South, BC
I have just one more question. Did you ever have a chance to visit Asadullah Khalid, and did you know anything about what he was involved in?
3:55 p.m.
First Secretary, Embassy of Canada to the United States of America
Yes, yes, I had lots of information on Mr. Khalid.
4 p.m.
First Secretary, Embassy of Canada to the United States of America
I believe so. In this forum I'm protected from libel.
He was known to us very early on, in May and June 2006, as an unusually bad actor on human rights issues. He was known to have had a dungeon in Ghazni, his previous province, where he used to detain people for money, and some of them disappeared. He was known to be running a narcotics operation. He had a criminal gang. He had people killed who got in his way. And then in Kandahar we found out that he had indeed set up a similar dungeon under his guest house. He acknowledged this. When asked, he had sort of justifications for it, but he was known to personally torture people in that dungeon.
So on a range of issues—governance, security, human rights—he was a serious problem, and there were efforts made to have him replaced, but those efforts were not successful.
4 p.m.
Liberal
Ujjal Dosanjh Liberal Vancouver South, BC
Were you ever present in meetings in Ottawa or even in Kabul or Kandahar where there were political people like the ministers or CEFCOM people who were listening to you and stopped taking notes? Do you think that was as a result of the directive that had been issued to not talk about torture?
4 p.m.
First Secretary, Embassy of Canada to the United States of America
I'm not sure. At least at first I didn't get the sense there was—well, maybe in the military there was a directive. I think it was seen as just a very sensitive issue and people didn't really want to engage, and there were certain things that they didn't want to hear.
There was one episode that I found quite surprising. In March of 2007 I happened to be in Ottawa, where I went to an inter-agency meeting on detainees. There were maybe 12 or 15 people in the room from a range of agencies. And this was after the complaint from Amnesty and the B.C. Civil Liberties Association, so it was obvious this issue was going to be a serious problem, and I felt that perhaps I hadn't been clear enough in conveying to people how bad it was.
So I said, “Look, you know, the NDS tortures people, that's what they do. And if we don't want our detainees tortured, we shouldn't give them to the NDS.” I was a bit taken aback to see the CEFCOM note-taker stop writing. She didn't write that down and then she put her pen down, so the official records of our meeting I think would not reflect those comments.
There are episodes like that that suggested that there was some information that was seen as too hot a potato and no one wanted to be responsible for grasping that hot potato.
4 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Rick Casson
Thank you, sir. We're out of time.
Moving to Mr. Bachand, seven minutes, sir.
November 18th, 2009 / 4 p.m.
Bloc
Claude Bachand Bloc Saint-Jean, QC
Mr. Colvin, first, I would like to congratulate you on your testimony. In my view, it is extremely courageous of you. It is also explosive in the extreme because you are confirming our worst fears about the culture of secrecy but also about the fact that we, as parliamentarians, seriously doubted that any torture was going on.
First, I wonder if you have been following the debates in the House of Commons and have heard the questions asked of various ministers every day, and their answers that there was no torture.
Have you been following those debates?
4 p.m.
First Secretary, Embassy of Canada to the United States of America
Yes, I have been following them.
4 p.m.
Bloc
Claude Bachand Bloc Saint-Jean, QC
When you saw that the Special Committee on the Canadian Mission in Afghanistan was going to be conducting its own inquiry, did you heave a sigh of relief?
4 p.m.
First Secretary, Embassy of Canada to the United States of America
It was not relief, but I felt that it would be a good subject for an inquiry because it seemed to me that we officials were having difficulty solving the problems.
4 p.m.
Bloc
Claude Bachand Bloc Saint-Jean, QC
You sent reports to various departments in Ottawa. Can you tell us how many reports you sent and to which departments?
4 p.m.
First Secretary, Embassy of Canada to the United States of America
I have a long list of reports on many subjects, but there were about 17 or 18 on detainees.
4 p.m.
First Secretary, Embassy of Canada to the United States of America
Yes. I sent them to almost everyone at first, to 75—
4 p.m.
First Secretary, Embassy of Canada to the United States of America
I sent them to 75 individuals or organizations. The military ones went to directions rather than to individuals. After May 2007, the list was much more limited, but in 2006, I could send them to anyone.
4 p.m.
Bloc
Claude Bachand Bloc Saint-Jean, QC
Today, the opposition parties asked questions about a directive from the Privy Council, which, as you know, is the Prime Minister's department. That directive is supposed to have asked diplomats not to reveal any information about the torture of Afghan detainees.
Are you aware of those allegations? Do you know whether the Privy Council issued a directive saying that nothing should be sent to anyone?
4:05 p.m.
First Secretary, Embassy of Canada to the United States of America
I am not exactly aware. Mr. David Mulroney was exerting pressure. At that time, he held the second most important position in Foreign Affairs. In addition, since he was the coordinator, he spoke as if he were part of the Privy Council. I feel that it came from him. I do not know if he was acting under orders.
4:05 p.m.
Bloc
Claude Bachand Bloc Saint-Jean, QC
A little earlier, you talked about the culture of secrecy that exists in the Canadian Forces. Is it not also your impression that this culture of secrecy extends to the elected politicians who are responsible for the mission in Afghanistan?
4:05 p.m.
First Secretary, Embassy of Canada to the United States of America
I agree with you that that is part of it. But I am not exactly aware of what the military were telling the politicians. I know that, with regard to the security situation, they were sending overly optimistic analyses that did not reflect the actual situation in Afghanistan. I remember some situations, such as when one of my colleagues, an ambassador, said something negative and the military were angry at him. There were times like that. But I think that happens a lot in the military. They have a success mentality: they have to win. So they are in the habit of inflating their successes a little.
4:05 p.m.
Bloc
Claude Bachand Bloc Saint-Jean, QC
If I understand correctly, inflating their success meant trying to hide the fact that torture was going on, because revealing it would have a negative effect on public opinion in Canada. You feel that the successes were overstated but that the negative aspects were concealed from the government. Is that correct?