Afghanistan Committee on May 14th, 2009

[Deepak Obhrai, Conservative, Calgary East, AB]

One factor, and let's not beat around the bush, is that the Afghan government has accused the ISI of fostering all those things over there.

Does that create the animosity between the two forces? Because if these two forces don't talk to each other at this thing, we have a volatile situation there.

[BGen Dennis William Thompson]

If they weren't talking to each other, we would have a volatile situation, but they are talking to each other. Sometimes the discussions are substantive. Sometimes it's just, literally, a cup of tea and, as General Howard pointed out, an opportunity for the two commanders to meet each other. Just that act tends to defuse things.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

Mr. Coderre.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Mr. Rae will start.

[Bob Rae, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

Just briefly, General Howard and General Thompson, can you give me a profile of the typical Afghan recruit: level of education, background, etc.?

[BGen Alan Howard]

Certainly from my perspective as I sat at the top, I had the good fortune to go down to the recruiting command on a regular basis, where all of the recruits would come in. They are very representative of the entire country. It is actually quite a thing to see. The battalions are built ethnically balanced. Of all the entities within Afghanistan, the army tends to be a bit of an ethnic balance.

For most of them, their eyes are wide open. If they've come from a major city, they'll have a bit of an understanding of some of the basic things you might see. If they come from smaller towns, they will unlikely be literate, and a thing like a fridge can be a bit of a discussion point.

The one thing they are is extremely proud. As I walked around talking to sections that were already formed, I'd ask about their ethnic background. They'd say, “I'm Afghan.” I was quite impressed with that sort of response. I saw some very proud soldiers, struggling perhaps with some of the advanced concepts because of literacy rates. They are not stupid by any stretch, but when you can't read, that becomes difficult. They're loyal to their country, very friendly, and certainly willing to put their life on the line. They're very brave. That's certainly what I saw.

[BGen Dennis William Thompson]

I'll just add to General Howard's explanation.

In the field, these soldiers are brave to the point of being foolhardy. You can have a guy from our operational mentoring and liaison team, an officer or an NCO, sitting here and he'll tell you that they need to tell Afghan soldiers to take cover, because it's not a manly thing to take cover. They're committed to their country. I don't think I have ever heard of an act of cowardice. If anything, you've got to rein them in.

It's an impressive army but it's very difficult when people are illiterate. We managed to accomplish something as simple as firing an indirect-fire missile from an artillery piece, which is quite an involved operation, near the end of December when this brigade headquarters got its CM1 qualification after a long period of mentorship. We just started with basic math and worked our way up through the basic principles of artillery theory.

The will is there and the attitude is right.

[Bob Rae, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

I've got to get Mr. Coderre in.

How would you compare the typical Afghan recruit that you've described with your perception of the Taliban, of the enemy, in terms of the average membership? What are we talking about here? The same people, the same kind of people? The same level of education?

[BGen Dennis William Thompson]

Yes, they're drawn from the same population. The only difference is that the committed Taliban have been through a madrassa and are completely brainwashed. There's no lack of commitment to the cause and to the other comrades in arms.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to come back to my colleague's questions. Recruiting soldiers is one thing, and training the chain of command is another.

How do we train a colonel or a senior non-commissioned officer? We have 80,000 soldiers, and in 2011, we will have to make a decision and leave the military mission to make way for the Afghan army, which has to take charge.

What is the status regarding those officers?

[BGen Alan Howard]

During my tour, one of our big challenges was systems and training. The Afghans have designed an Afghan National Army training command led by a three-star, and we're in the process now.... Our big challenge is to build beyond the level of basic training. Now a soldier enters, he gets a little bit of basic training, he heads to the field, away he goes. Officers have the same thing, but that lasts for only a few months. What we need are the service schools, the schools to teach the officers higher-level concepts. That is all a train in motion right now. We will build an Afghan defence university. Those are things that are under way.

Canada is providing the assistance to build the junior officers staff corps. During my tour, I saw 88 young Afghans graduate from their equivalent of military college. That was the first graduating class. The Taliban had shut it down. That's very much a work-in-progress. For me and for the command, it's one of our major focuses. We are years away from having a viable education system, but we've laid the foundation.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

Mr. Abbott.

[Jim Abbott, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

Gentlemen, thank you very much for being here today.

I have to tell you that I'm immensely encouraged. The reason I'm encouraged is that you come to us as people who have been on the ground. You come to us as absolute experts. You come to us with a message.

I want to read your own words back to you, General Howard, and allow you the opportunity to expand on them, if you will, because this is the good news this morning. You said: In spite of all the challenges that face Afghanistan it is my assessment that the ANA is well on its way to becoming a viable and self sustaining military force. Growth above 80,000 soldiers, introduction of modem weapons/vehicles/equipment, and effective involvement in counter insurgency operations are but three areas of ANA progress that I observed during my one year tour.

I want to give you the opportunity to expand on that, because I've never seen a headline in Canada, I've never seen an article in Canada in any of the current publications, that will say that.

I really respect the fact that you come to us with the one-year experience, specifically in Afghanistan, and with the expertise that you and your colleague have. This is immensely good news. I don't know how we could underscore, underline, highlight, exactly those words.

[BGen Alan Howard]

I think Afghanistan's army has made major accomplishments. It certainly has a long way to go, and that's why we're there, quite frankly. During my time there I watched the Afghan National Army be involved in many more counter-insurgency operations than they had been the previous year. The command uses the figure of 60% as the number of operations that the Afghan army lead in. Their air corps is growing. They have 30 aircraft now and they can meet 90% of their demands.

There are challenges, though, and there are numerous ones. The first one is literacy. There are very low literacy rates in the army, and we're trying to teach difficult things. General Thompson was talking about artillery, but counter-IED design specs for radios, really trying to get the soldiers and middle personnel some basic training so they can read and understand the education we're giving them, I think is a huge key. It could be the big, big piece that we need to move forward on.

Second is systems development. Without having had a functioning bureaucracy, a functioning ministry, I spent a lot of time trying to help them with systems, logistics, getting enough equipment and stuff forward into the field.

I think the Afghan army has made some good steps. There's certainly refinement and polishing that is required. Are they able to run security by themselves right now? Absolutely not. The technology and the expertise that we bring behind them, that General Thompson and the troops were doing down there, is absolutely essential to the work they're doing. But, by golly, I saw a lot of progress over the year I was there.

[Jim Abbott, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

Thank you.

Dave.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Thank you.

Thank you to both witnesses.

One of the things I think you've illustrated to us in many respects is that there's now a growing pride in the Afghan side of things through their military, and perhaps part of it is through their training, through their money and so on. But all of that plays a part, ultimately, in the professionalism.

I know that Mr. Dewar's comments...and well respected about the humans rights. But as these people then become more literate, more professional, in terms of the issues with the Afghan military and the police--I'm sure you saw this--they start to grow, and to understand the need to respect human rights. Is part of that what we see being instilled in them?

I wonder if you can give us some indication as to whether you have seen that progress that we would expect and hope to see with both the police and the military.

[BGen Dennis William Thompson]

The Afghan National Army that's presently in Kandahar province is a professional force. They are not at odds with any elements of the civilian population. I believe, and it's certainly indicated in the survey that was cited earlier, they are held in very high regard by the population.

The police are playing catch-up. While I was there, Brigadier-General Sageb, who was a provincial chief of police, was replaced after the prison outbreak on June 13, 2008, by Brigadier-General Matiullah Khan. This gentleman, the current Kandahar chief of police, is not about filling his pockets. He gets the idea that police forces exist not to prey on the population but to protect the population.

Through his attitude, which trickles its way down to all the different districts, and the training people receive through the focused district development program, slowly but surely they're building up a professional police force in Kandahar province. That's the key to changing attitudes; it is this training followed up by continuous mentorship.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

Thank you very much.

We'll go over to Mr. Crête.

[Paul Crête, Bloc, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Brigadier-General Howard, in your document, you said that the Afghan National Army was well on its way to becoming a viable and self-sustaining military force. How long before it is?

[BGen Alan Howard]

The construction of the army is, I think, a long-term process. Certainly as you talk to Afghans, you find they are quite proud of what's going on. But to be honest with you, we're talking in years. This will be measured in years.

[Paul Crête, Bloc, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

In approximately how many years?

[BGen Alan Howard]

I don't know that you can put a figure on it. Anything less than five years to build up the army to the systems we would have in the Canadian Forces, I think, would be unrealistic. If we have the time, we certainly can build that up.

[Paul Crête, Bloc, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Do you think the 2011 departure date for soldiers in Afghanistan will be the same for those who provide support to the Afghan army?

[BGen Alan Howard]

Absolutely. All the work that is done down in the south by Canadians is well appreciated. We will challenge the Afghan army and we will challenge NATO to find an equivalent partner who is able to work down there, but we will not have it all done before we go.

Let me give you the example of counter-IED teams. Every brigade should have a counter-IED team. I managed to get one going, through the training we did, and delivered down to the Canadians. But the educational systems we need to put into place, the long-term sustainment pieces, they will be a work-in-progress for several years.

[Paul Crête, Bloc, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

You think the departure date will be the same. Those who provide support to the Afghan army will leave when the combat troops do.