Afghanistan Committee on May 14th, 2009

[BGen Alan Howard]

I don't think we'll have the job done before we leave, but we'll be certainly proud of what we've accomplished. There's a lot of work-in-progress right now to determine what the steps will be after we leave. But I don't think it's viable that they are going to be able to stand alone without us after we leave.

[Paul Crête, Bloc, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Do you know the proportions of the ethnic groups that make up the army? How many Pashtun, and so on?

[BGen Alan Howard]

I don't have the chart with me today, but the command kept stats of the different ethnic backgrounds. I'd be happy to provide that to the clerk.

That was almost, in army talk, a centre of gravity. But the most important issue for the minister and the chief was to maintain ethnic balance. As they put together teams, they would ensure the ethnicities were respected so they could work together.

I was quite impressed with that. I thought that was a very valuable tool for them. And that, for them, is how they will keep their army together, by ensuring the ethnicities come together.

I will provide the chart. That's easy to provide.

[Paul Crête, Bloc, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Is it possible that the Taliban are infiltrating the Afghan army? Is there a way to screen for that? Is this a problem you have had to deal with?

[BGen Alan Howard]

Within the Afghan National Army, the biometrics process was commenced to start tracking Afghan National Army recruits who arrived, and cross-referencing that back to any material the government might have on criminals or on known Taliban.

It's something the leadership is very attuned to and watches closely, but there's not a specific formula.

[Paul Crête, Bloc, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Since there is virtually no justice system, there must not be much in the way of criminal record statistics. Regardless, a Taliban does not necessarily have a criminal record. It could just be someone who is involved because of their religious values and so forth.

[BGen Alan Howard]

You are right when you say that there are no statistics. Be that as it may, that is something that the leaders have to monitor during operations. I cannot confirm that there are not any Taliban in the Afghan army, but the leaders are....

They're watching closely, sir.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

Over to Mr. Kerr.

[Greg Kerr, Conservative, West Nova, NS]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Welcome. This is a very informative session today.

I know we're here to discuss the military and the changes going on. We hear a lot of talk about the human rights issues, the horror stories, and what happens. I'd like to draw some lines of comparison.

You talked about the attitude of the national troops there. We've heard the horror stories about how the women are treated in a certain way, and the children and so on. How important is it to them personally that there be calm, serenity, and opportunities for the women and those who are at risk?

[BGen Dennis William Thompson]

When you speak to an Afghan soldier or officer, or you sit down and have chai tea with them, as General Howard would have done in Kabul, and as I have done on multiple occasions in the province of Kandahar, you learn that they have all the same hopes and desires we have. For the most part, they all have families and want to look after them. They all want their kids to be educated. They want the best possible future for their country.

So when it comes to some of the acts you're referring to, of course they abhor them. There's not a lot of daylight between an Afghan soldier and a Canadian soldier on some of the basic issues.

[Greg Kerr, Conservative, West Nova, NS]

I thank you for that, because it helps cover some of what we don't necessarily hear from the stories on the ground. We mentioned the different ethnicities involved in the army, and they become of basic human interest to any soldier or citizen. The fact that they get regular pay lets them focus more on where their country is going.

On the infrastructure being developed through our sources with our support and that of other countries, how important is it that they take it over, consider it theirs, and protect it so things like schools, hospitals, bridges, and roads become their property?

[BGen Dennis William Thompson]

I think that's fairly self-evident. It's obviously what they're there to do. They're securing the population, so by extension they're securing large parts of the infrastructure.

The best example is ring route south that is swept--that's the expression we use--on a daily basis to make sure it's free of improvised explosive devices. The Afghan national security forces--in large part the army and their engineers--do that on a daily basis. It's not without risk, and they do that every single day. They're absolutely committed to bringing about security to their own population.

[Greg Kerr, Conservative, West Nova, NS]

I know you say it's self-evident, but we don't always get that sense when we hear the stories. It seems so important to me, because we're going to hear more about the human rights issues and the laws that change etc. That seems to be one of the most essential ingredients. Like any other nation in the world, if the citizens take ownership and control of their laws, their way of life, their policing, and their army, they will take control of their country eventually--hopefully in a peaceful way.

[BGen Dennis William Thompson]

Absolutely.

[Greg Kerr, Conservative, West Nova, NS]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

Does anybody want to pick it up?

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Obviously this is about training ANA, ANP, and so on. We have only 2,800 folks and they have done a great job--there's no question about that--but we're a small part of a much larger force. Someone is going to take over the ANA and ANP training when we leave. Do we know who that will be? How do you see that transition happening?

[BGen Alan Howard]

I left when those discussions were occurring, so I'm really not sure where we're at. But the influx of American troops will allow CSTC-A to double its capacity in police mentoring. That was our biggest challenge when I was there.

The commanding general's theme was to keep going with the army in the way we were, but we definitely needed more emphasis on the police. He'll be able to double his efforts now with the influx of American troops. Several weeks of training in a police district can make a big difference, and I think they'll have some of the resources at hand.

Maybe my colleague knows about the advance planning for Kandahar. I'm just not there.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Given the way we operate and the Americans operate and the style of training, do you see it as being a pretty seamless transition from Canadian mentors to U.S. mentors?

[BGen Dennis William Thompson]

I can tell you that on the ground it would be, absolutely, because that's the way it works right now. As we sit here, there are U.S. police mentoring teams, USPMTs, in Kandahar city that have embedded in them members of the civilian police. They often go out with our own military police and operate and live inside a Canadian provincial reconstruction team and patrol almost daily with Canadian soldiers. There isn't much difference between what the U.S. brings to the table and what a Canadian brings to the table except the colour scheme of their equipment, perhaps.

[BGen Alan Howard]

I had a validation training team that worked for me up in Kabul. They were responsible for verifying the level of training across the entire ANA. This team had absolutely no problems when they went down into the brigade we were mentoring; they found it to be at the same standard as what the Americans were doing. I left confident that our methods were very similar.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

I'll put in a comment. When we were over with the defence committee last year, we met some village councillors at Camp Nathan Smith. Someone—I'm not sure who—asked the question, what are your top five concerns? They were just the basic things of life: security, food, and then they got into—you could have been sitting at a table in Canada—education for their children, jobs.... That type of thing is no different there from anywhere else.

Mr. Coderre.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I am going to share my time with my other two colleagues.

It is hard to train non-commissioned officers and superior officers because of problems with illiteracy, among other things. What takes 10 years in Canada should take the same amount of time in Afghanistan. In addition, our soldiers are educated.

You mentioned that it was possible for the Taliban to infiltrate the Afghan army, but you said that there were biometrics and such.

How can we be sure that the mentoring will work? Elections will be held, and our soldiers will be leaving the ground since they are there to provide support. It is not a protectorate. What are your evaluation criteria for levels 1, 2, 3 and 4?

Readiness is truly the issue. It's their country, and that's our legacy.

What's the true status? We talk a lot about the security issue, about the Taliban being all over the place, and the Afghan army not being the same as the Canadian army, for example. Let's have a portrait. Not everybody watching right now—because we're televised, folks—perceives the same thing we do, for example.

[BGen Denis William Thompson]

What is your question, Mr. Coderre?