Evidence of meeting #7 for Special Committee on the Canadian Mission in Afghanistan in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was women.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Soraya Sobhrang  Commissioner, Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission

8:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rick Casson

I call this meeting to order.

This is the Special Committee on the Canadian Mission in Afghanistan. Today we have Dr. Soraya Sobhrang with us. She is the Commissioner of the Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission. She's been working on female issues and the rights of women in Afghanistan.

We want to welcome you. We certainly appreciate your going through all the trouble to be here.

Do you have a few comments to start? Then we'll have the committee ask you some questions.

8:10 a.m.

Dr. Soraya Sobhrang Commissioner, Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission

I am ready. I don't have any comments.

8:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rick Casson

Very good. We'll get right into the questions.

Just to explain to you, this is an all-party committee of the House of Commons here in Ottawa, Canada. We have four parties at the table and we'll give each one seven minutes to ask you questions. It's timed, so they'll want to get in as many questions and responses as they can.

We'll begin with Mr. Bob Rae with the official opposition.

8:10 a.m.

Liberal

Bob Rae Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

Good morning, Dr. Sobhrang. It's a pleasure to see you. You are probably better known in Canada than you realize, because your comments are frequently quoted in our newspapers.

8:10 a.m.

Commissioner, Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission

8:10 a.m.

Liberal

Bob Rae Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

I will ask you to start directly on the issue of the changes to the sharia family law that were considered by the national Parliament.

You made some comments indicating that you felt the west had let you down because we didn't do enough to stop the legislation. The government says they were not aware of the legislation until it was too late.

When did you become aware of the law that was being passed?

8:15 a.m.

Commissioner, Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission

Dr. Soraya Sobhrang

Thank you very much for the question.

First, I want to tell you that my English is very poor, but I will try to explain.

When the Shia family law was approved by Parliament and went to President Karzai's office, he signed also. That was in March. When we heard about that, very quickly all independent human rights commissions, civil society, and some members of Parliament organized meetings and we also protested against this. We also had a demonstration. We wanted to stop this process.

It was already signed by Mr. Karzai. We wanted to bring some changes. Maybe two years ago, when we heard about it, the Shia law was drafted by Ayatollah Mohseni. We got this one draft for that. It was absolutely against human rights, women's rights, our constitution, and all the conventions of international human rights. It was not acceptable to us. We wanted to make some comments and suggestions and we made this one. Also at one university—this is Khatib school—a lot of scholars came from Iran and from inside Afghanistan, and they reviewed this law and said it was against women's rights and we had to stop this process, because at the time the draft had gone to Parliament.

We also visited members of Parliament and the chairperson of Parliament, Mr. Qanouni. We stopped this process for maybe more than nine months, but suddenly this was passed and approved by Parliament. After that and up until now, we were really concerned about it, because the justice ministry hasn't done anything and we don't know why they didn't start to work on this and bring some changes to this law. Until now, this law is without any reaction that says to stop this process, so we are concerned.

8:15 a.m.

Liberal

Bob Rae Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

Let me try to understand. When you first saw an earlier draft, you and many of the groups you're associated with were strongly objecting to what you saw as a draft proposal. You then were very surprised when the President signed the law, which in the end was much closer to the draft proposal than to any of the objections you and the groups you represented had expressed. Is that a fair description of what happened?

8:15 a.m.

Commissioner, Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission

Dr. Soraya Sobhrang

If I understood correctly, when we heard about it this was already on the agenda for Parliament. We also visited the UNAMA in Afghanistan and the European Union. We asked them to stop this process and do something, because this law is really against human rights and women's rights in Afghanistan. This is also against our constitution. I and all women's rights activists believe that the European Union and the UNAMA reaction was very passive and very late. It was not effective in this process.

8:15 a.m.

Liberal

Bob Rae Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

Let me turn to the future rather than the past. I think we all understand that the law has some serious problems. What do you think the process will be, going forward, to deal with this question? What do you see happening over the next several months?

8:20 a.m.

Commissioner, Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission

Dr. Soraya Sobhrang

Our concern about this law is that it opens the way for approval of other such laws.

We've now drafted this family law for Sunni in Afghanistan, and also the violence against women law. These two laws are also going through this way, going through Parliament, but we're concerned. The drafts might be very good and very effective, and could change a woman's situation in Afghanistan. That also might be very good. But we are concerned because maybe inside Parliament they will make some changes to these two laws. This is our first concern.

Second, we are concerned about losing our achievements as women in Afghanistan after the Bonn conference and also after the fall of the Taliban. Maybe we'll lose all of our achievements and go backwards instead of forward, like the Taliban situation in Afghanistan.

8:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rick Casson

Thank you, Dr. Sobhrang.

We're going to move now to Madame Lalonde for seven minutes. She's with the Bloc Québécois.

8:20 a.m.

Bloc

Francine Lalonde Bloc La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC

So that the witness will understand, I will speak English.

Mrs. Sobhrang, it is a real pleasure to hear from you today.

I am trying to understand exactly the situation in which women are right now. In order for me to understand better, perhaps you would tell me what you expect from us in Canada or from other countries in the weeks and months to come in order for you to be able to enjoy your rights and to be able to work to help women who need it.

8:20 a.m.

Commissioner, Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission

Dr. Soraya Sobhrang

Thank you.

First, I want to tell you that during this year in Afghanistan, women have achieved much. For example, we have a new constitution. This is the first time Afghanistan has this. There is no discrimination, and no violence, and women and men have the same rights in our constitution.

Also, women have the opportunity to participate in social, political, and economic life. You know, there are a lot of women now in Parliament since these two elections, presidential and also parliamentary. They are very active in participating in this process.

And also, we have a women's ministry. We have a human rights commission, and civil society is very active. So we are happy about this.

This is also, I think, quite an achievement for our male-dominated society, but this is not enough. Until now there has been a lot of violence against women. For example, in the six months since January, every month there has been self-immolation and also a lot of rape and sexual harassment against women. And women haven't had any security, and there has been poverty and everything. So women in Afghanistan have had a lot of problems until now, which is why we need you and we need the support of the international community, and it is our hope that you won't forget us.

We have started this process for democracy and also social justice in Afghanistan, but we need your support. We are moving fast, but we have to go a lot further, and our progress is short. We have to go a long way, and also we have a lot of problems and challenges. We really need your support in Afghanistan.

I think when the international community came to Afghanistan, a big goal was to defend women's rights in Afghanistan, and you know what has happened now in Afghanistan with women's rights.

Women don't have security, and now every day Afghanistan's enemies burn girls' schools. And they make a chemical treatment and they put it in the face of women in Kandahar. And there is also what has happened in Kapisa Province and Parwan Province in girls' schools.

This is closing the way for progress for women. Now women and girls are afraid, and every family worries about that when they are sending their children to school. They worry about what may happen to their children and what may happen to their girls because of the kidnapping and everything that has happened. And there is no guarantee against that happening or that the girls will return home. And we are all mothers. We are worried when we are sending our girls to school. We don't know. Even in kindergarten we don't know if they will come back or not.

So this situation is very bad. And we women need your support. And also I speak for all women in Afghanistan. Please don't forget us. We really need your support.

8:25 a.m.

Bloc

Francine Lalonde Bloc La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC

Thank you very much for all that you have said. I understand that you need support, and I think that a lot of people here want to help you out. But could you be more specific about the support you think we can give you?

8:25 a.m.

Commissioner, Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission

Dr. Soraya Sobhrang

First, in Afghanistan we need security. If we don't have security, we can't get achievements in other areas--for example, economic, political, social, all areas. First we need security. I think until now, our government, and also our police, our army, hasn't had the opportunity or the power to bring security in Afghanistan. This is very important.

Second, our constitution, in article 7, talks about the responsibility of government for all international conventions, human rights conventions. This is a change our government has to bring to all laws in Afghanistan, for example, civil and criminal law, gender issues, everything. We need a lot of specialists from you. You can send specialists in different areas to Afghanistan. They can help us with capacity-building. This is very important. I think if you're doing this, we need your specialists.

You can also invite the younger generation from Afghanistan to your country. They can get some new processes and come back to work for Afghanistan. Because during this 30 years of fighting, our younger generation learned only how to use guns and other things, but never about culture and skills-building.

There's been a lot of job loss in Afghanistan. We don't have any fabric in Afghanistan. We don't have any work projects. Our new generation, our young boys in Afghanistan, really need support. Our children are playing in dirty streets. There are no parks, no pastimes for them.

It is very difficult to explain this in English.

8:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rick Casson

Thank you very much.

8:30 a.m.

Commissioner, Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission

Dr. Soraya Sobhrang

But really, we need your support.

8:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rick Casson

You bet. Thank you very much for that.

We're going to switch over now to the governing party, and Deepak Obhrai will be asking you questions.

8:30 a.m.

Conservative

Deepak Obhrai Conservative Calgary East, AB

Thank you very much, Dr. Sobhrang. Welcome to the committee.

I must say you are indeed a very courageous woman to fight for women's rights in Afghanistan, considering all the challenges.

I would like you, as the head of the human rights commission, to tell us about what is happening in Kandahar, where the Canadian soldiers are. As you know, Kandahar is a very volatile province, with a lot of Taliban presence, with Canadians providing the security. Perhaps you can tell us and Canadians how your commission is working with the Canadians there to bring human rights issues into Kandahar, in light of the fact that the Taliban presence is still there.

8:30 a.m.

Commissioner, Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission

Dr. Soraya Sobhrang

Thank you.

We have also our commission. This is an original office we have in Kandahar, and we have also established a new office in Helmand in Oruzgan.

Two or maybe three weeks ago, I also visited our office in Kandahar. Really, in Kandahar, women are under pressure and every day they are getting ultimatums. They have a lot of challenges there. Some women tell me they don't have permission to go outside their houses or to go out to work. In our office, and also in Andarab, I visited a lot. That time, after two days, a woman was killed, Sitara Achakzai, a very active women's rights activist, in Kandahar.

Now, the situation, especially for women, is very, very bad. Really, we need some coordination between Canadian and other organizations who are working in Kandahar. We need very good coordination there because really there is no security in Kandahar now. I visited civil society there also, and this is very bad.

When I talked with some women there, and men, they have lost their hope for the future. They think maybe they are living only today, but what will happen tomorrow is very dark. Their future is looking very dark. So I think this is very dangerous for one country or for the population, when they lose their hope for the future. This is very dangerous.

8:35 a.m.

Conservative

Deepak Obhrai Conservative Calgary East, AB

Dr. Soraya, thank you very much. You hit on a very strong and important point in reference to the situation you have described in Kandahar, which is the lack of security. You need security there so you can carry on the process of fighting for human rights for everyone.

How do you feel? Are you comfortable with the national police and the training they have received, and the national army in Kandahar, with the Canadians? Are you comfortable enough over there that these forces are actually now helping provide the security that you need to do your work?

8:35 a.m.

Commissioner, Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission

Dr. Soraya Sobhrang

Yes, I think our police as well as our army need capacity-building. If they are working with the Canadians, this is a very good opportunity for them to gain experience and learn how in this situation they can work and bring security. I think this is very important. They can get international experience, because what has happened now in Afghanistan, this is also new. They say that every day the enemy changes its tactics in Afghanistan—suicide attacks, every day they are using different tactics.

So if the international community and the Canadian community bring their experience in this direction, it is doing capacity-building for our policemen. I think this is a very good point.

8:35 a.m.

Conservative

Deepak Obhrai Conservative Calgary East, AB

Dr. Soraya, thank you very much.

One other point that you asked is about Canadian support for your organization. As you know, we put quite a lot of emphasis on helping you because you are seen as one of those front-line organizations fighting for women's rights, which is one of the strong points in Canada.

Can you tell us a little bit more of the Canadian need to help and strengthen your organization on the ground, specifically in Kandahar, where we are?

8:35 a.m.

Commissioner, Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission

Dr. Soraya Sobhrang

Thank you.

I don't want to talk only about my organization. All civil society and all women's rights activists were in Kandahar, under pressure, and every day they are given ultimatums. They need support. They need help. Our organization is a human rights organization, and we have some opportunity, but if you can help with the women's rights activism in Kandahar and bring some changes to their lives and also, very importantly, to their security, I'd be very happy for that.