Afghanistan Committee on Oct. 20th, 2010

[Jennifer Rowell]

We do. We have significant operations in Pakistan. Right now, of course, a lot of the attention is on the floods.

[Bob Rae, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

Do you engage in any quiet diplomacy with...? You talked before about how, when you worked in Kabul, you would deal with the mullahs and try to explain what you were trying to do, and why it didn't represent a threat to any interpretation of the Koran or anything else.

Do you have any of those discussions with people in Peshawar or Quetta, or is that beyond your scope?

[Jennifer Rowell]

It is not what we do. When we have those sorts of dialogues, it is to facilitate humanitarian access. It is to get into vulnerable communities where the UN and certain other facilitating partners are not able to go. We need to establish safe passage into the most vulnerable communities, and that is the basis on which we have discussions where they are necessary.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Bachand, please.

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I want to welcome our guests from CARE Canada.

It is obvious when reading your document that you consider improving the living conditions of Afghan women as one of the pillars of Afghanistan's future. There is no doubt in my mind about this, because this is what you say all over this document. You talk about good government and about the rule of law.

I went to Afghanistan on three occasions and I have always noted that women are kept under control and systematically oppressed. Even we, Westerners, sometimes find it difficult to talk to them. We often have the feeling that we do not help by talking to them because they are constantly under surveillance. I ultimately have to say that Afghan society is patriarchal in nature. It is not a matriarchal society based on a specific culture.

I can agree with you when you say that it is sometimes necessary to try to change this culture by doing concrete things, perhaps like building hospitals near villages. Then people would not have to travel on camel back for three days to get to a hospital. I can understand that but this is a big challenge you are asking us to take on. It is quite difficult. With a patriarchal society—I strongly condemned the infamous rape legislation passed by the Afghan parliament—we are quite far from a situation in which women have full powers in Afghanistan. So I think it would take a very strong will on the part of the Canadian government to really move forward.

The semi-annual report I have here mentions six government priorities and says next to nothing about women. It is therefore quite a challenge you are throwing at us, asking us to be champions and to try to effect change. I think this can be done in two ways: help women in practical terms and, at the same time, educate men. If men persist in their behaviour and hold on to their patriarchal mentality by refusing to give any rights to women, we will need to work for at least a hundred years before we can get any results.

I would like to know your reaction to what I am saying. Are you still suggesting that we go this way? Will it take a very strong will? I think Canada is the only country that is well positioned to do it. Are you in favour of a two-pronged approach involving both helping women in practical terms and educating the patriarchal society?

[Jennifer Rowell]

In fact, we need to do three things at the same time in order to improve the present situation in Afghanistan. No doubt, we should absolutely work with women to improve their capabilities, their awareness of their rights and so on.

However, there are two more aspects to this situation. First, as you said, we need to change social relations or deal with the issue of the relations of women with men and with leaders of the communities where they live. Second, there is the political aspect such as the rape legislation that you mentioned. It is essential to deal directly with the political framework, the legislation that defines what is acceptable and what is not as well as the limits relating to respect for human rights.

The problem now is that many donors focus all their efforts on women. Very little money and support is left to deal specifically with education and awareness for men or with other social problems more related to politics.

For example, in relation to maternal health, we found out a few things after conducting some experiments on the ground. When we talked directly to men and their mothers—i.e. pregnant women's mothers-in-law—and explained to them why it is very important to let women go to the hospital to get help during pregnancy, when we told them about all the risks and dangers for the women and about all available resources, such as the nearest hospital or the nearest midwife who can help them and so on, when we gave them this basic information, the chances for women to be allowed to take advantage of these resources were greatly improved.

In the sectors of the city of Kabul where we are active, there was a remarkable improvement in maternal health due to efforts directly related to the work done with men. Thus, as I said, the problem is that efforts are not focused on this aspect.

One year ago, a $22 million hospital was built in Kabul. This is a huge amount of money. However, the only person at the Department of public health who was entrusted with the responsibility—

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

You have 30 seconds. I think there was another question, but....

[Jean Dorion, Bloc, Longueuil—Pierre-Boucher, QC]

About three weeks ago, my colleague, Mr. Bachand, and myself, as well as a few of the people seated around this table, had a discussion with a former Afghan parliamentarian, Ms. Malalai Joya. She told us that for some time after the arrival of foreign troops, there was some improvement in the situation of Afghan women but that almost all of the gains realized were since lost. Would you go as far as agreeing with this statement?

Also, since you mentioned Kabul, can you tell us if you work exclusively in the Kabul area? We often see in reports that Kabul is the only place that is still controlled by international forces at present.

[Jennifer Rowell]

No. As a matter of fact, our work extends to about three-quarters of the country, either directly with people or through Afghan or international partners. We have operations in almost every part of the country, but less so in the southeast because this is always difficult. So I am talking about our experiences everywhere in the country.

As for Ms. Joya, you said that she... The fact is that she is concerned about possible decrease in—

[Jean Dorion, Bloc, Longueuil—Pierre-Boucher, QC]

There was progress in the beginning but we are now losing all of that. Since everything is lost, would you go as far as—

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

We'll come back to this issue, because we're way over time.

We'll turn it over to Mr. Abbott, and if you have some key comments, you can maybe make them.

Mr. Abbott, go ahead, please.

[Jim Abbott, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

Thank you very much to both of our guests. I would say that in the time I've been privileged to be on this committee, I don't know if I've felt more informed than by your testimony, and I thank you for that. It's very compelling.

I'd like to use the term that Mr. Wilfert used in earlier testimony about the “elephant in the room”. In this particular instance, I'm talking about the fundamentals of the interpretation of the Koran.

The fact is that two days ago I read that in the United Arab Emirates—and I only have one source of information, so I could be wrong—there had been a ruling that under Sharia law it was okay for men in a family to beat up their wives and their daughters as long as the bruises didn't show, which I found really quite obnoxious, to put it mildly.

If in fact that is fundamental to what we're talking about, as much as I can't imagine there isn't one person in this room who doesn't have goodwill and wouldn't like to take a serious look at your proposal of our becoming more involved, how do we get around that elephant?

[Jennifer Rowell]

It's a myth that it has to be an elephant. It doesn't have to be an elephant. I almost believe, with all possible respect, that the international community fears culture so much, they tend to avoid it when we actually don't have to avoid it.

Regarding Islam and the interpretation of Islam, the unfortunate reality is that the people we hear in Canada are those with the microphone, and the people with the microphone are the fundamentalists, the radicals. But there is a whole subset of mullahs, of imams, who have a much different interpretation of Islam and a much more beautiful interpretation of Islam and, many would say—including the women who are deeply faithful—a much more accurate interpretation of Islam.

A lot of groups, including CARE, work with this more moderate set of mullahs both to ensure that they're able to spread the word regarding women's rights and to ensure that groups such as CARE learn about what the Koran says, learn about what Islam says, on women's rights so that we can also be more amenable and more...I don't want to say “respectful” in the sense that we weren't respecting it before, but so that we can tailor our work so our voice is one that Afghan audiences will hear and understand.

It doesn't have to be an elephant.

[Jim Abbott, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

Just because we only have seven minutes...and I'm absolutely not interested in entering into debate, but I think this is something that we have to understand a little more clearly. With respect, this was the supreme court of the U.A.E., as reported. We're also talking about the fact that under the Shia Personal Status Law in Afghanistan, we have these blockages.

Clearly, anybody who is looking at possibly moving forward with your proposed initiative would really have to have a great grasp of this topic, and we're not going to complete it in seven-minute testimony here today.

[Jennifer Rowell]

No, you're right, and I would absolutely be willing to continue that part of the conversation later on.

What I think we have to remember is that Afghanistan has signed up to every protocol under the sun--UN Security Council Resolution 1325, CEDAW, EVAW--all of these international....

In the Afghan constitution, in at least three different areas, Afghanistan has written up their commitment to respecting women's rights. For CARE, it's a question of asking Canada, the United States, and others to simply remind Afghanistan that actually that is the supreme, overarching rule. There is a great discrepancy, of course, between what is more supreme. Is it the constitution or is it the Koran? We need to encourage the Afghan government to resolve that question, because there is a lot that remains hanging.

[Jim Abbott, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

You spoke about the base of women whom we could interface with, and I guess my question is how, in practical terms, we tap into that base.

[Jennifer Rowell]

It's so simple. There are Afghan women's networks that are available that are based in Kabul but they have membership throughout the country. It's one phone call. CARE is affiliated with them very directly. Heather Cruden, who is head of CIDA for Afghanistan, is also connected to them. Ambassador Crosbie is familiar with them. It's a phone call. They would be at the embassy within minutes to have these forms of discussion.

The infrastructure is there. We're just not tapping into it, as you yourself have said.

[Jim Abbott, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

Is it a case of strengthening the infrastructure? Is that what you're saying?

[Jennifer Rowell]

The infrastructure could be strengthened. Right now international donors, including Canada, tend to give “projectized” grants, give grants to women's networks that are $20,000 here, $40,000 there, $300 there. These support them on one particular task when really what these women need are longer-term, core funding support so that they can go out when they need to and do surveys with women across the country, they can write up reports, they can hire a permanent researcher, hire a permanent advocacy person. They don't rely on the kinds of private funding that CARE relies on.

I'm here because we've got private funding that allows me to be here. If Canada could commit its gender fund--which is a great resource right now to the women of Afghanistan towards supporting core funding--slightly longer term, it wouldn't cost any more, but it would enable women to develop yet more leadership capability.

One thing they don't need is another week-long seminar on what leadership means. They do not need that. They absolutely know it. They need the resources to make it so.

[Jim Abbott, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

I guess we want to--I want to--bite into what we're talking about here, but the gap that I'm having, very honestly, is the power and the power base, what it is currently in Afghanistan, which is the male domination that my friend Mr. Bachand referred to, and reconciling the reality of the power base to what it is that we're talking about here.

So I have this chasm in front of me. Again, we won't do this in seven minutes, but we need to talk about the bridge, about how we bridge that chasm.

[Jennifer Rowell]

Ask the Afghan women: they live the reality every single day. They know what's possible. They know what isn't possible. They know what mullahs are on their side. They know what mullahs are more hostile to them. They've got a lot of the responses. We need to follow what they're telling us, so we need to reach out and ask them. They're willing and they're there with the answers.

[Jim Abbott, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Harris, please.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for joining us. CARE Canada, of course, is such a famous organization, it's actually part of the language. When you hear about “care” packages, it has come into the language from the existence of your organization.

I was very encouraged by the quite positive--I won't say over-optimistic, but certainly optimistic--statement that you're able to say that it is possible to empower women under the difficult circumstances that we are aware of...and perhaps exaggerate, because we see things in black and white from such a distance in Canada. So that's wonderful news.

I want to pay attention to your recommendations in terms of how Canada can help develop and be a more effective resource for that. The ambassador, who preceded you, seemed to recognize that this is probably an area of assistance that needs help and is one of the more vulnerable areas, and that organizations working on this type of activity are suppressed and not supported.

So I'm with you all the way on that, and I am delighted to know that you find the prospects very positive.

I do want help on one thing. My friend Mr. Rae chided me slightly for referring to the peace process as “ephemeral”, but that was only in terms of the reports. I'm glad to hear from Mr. Rae that the Quetta Shura is involved in possible talks for reconciliation.

I want your help with this question that I have. One of the things we heard up until recently was that the Taliban were making it a precondition for any talks that all foreign troops leave Afghanistan, without which we will have no talks. That obviously was not going to happen and therefore there was no possibility of any peace discussions.

I'm looking at your key recommendations on security here. I know that President Karzai has suggested that any peace talks have to happen with an acceptance of the constitution--quote, unquote. You are more specific than that in terms of guarantees, so I want to ask you two questions. One, are these guarantees something that would prevent any discussions from taking place with the Taliban? And two, what is it that the international community can do--other than talking about the importance of women's rights--if we are being also told to respect that the process of reconciliation and peace has to be an Afghan-led process?

In that context, I have a further question. The High Council for Peace is a body that was appointed recently. There is some question as to the number of women present, and of course in the context of male dominance, I look around this room and see that all the members of Parliament who are here are men, so we have to be aware of that as well in terms of what we do in this country.

Would you comment on that broad question? Are your recommendations ones that would prohibit peace discussions? If so, how do you get around it? And what is the role of Canada and other communities in how that peace process works, particularly in terms of support for Afghan women?

[Jennifer Rowell]

I'm very pleased you raised the question of guarantees because this is something that has to be handled very delicately but very deliberately.

We certainly aren't recommending that Canada put itself into a position where if a certain guarantee is not met, Canada's influence disappears altogether because you've said, well, we're not going to support you anymore, we're not going to give you any more funding, or whatever it might be. We don't want to encourage Canada to polarize its position in a way that may make it unproductive or uncontributory in the future.

So there is a very delicate conversation that has to happen about exactly what is it that Canada can do to remain a stringent defender of women's rights within that process with certain expectations but that does not tie Canada's hands too significantly. It's not an answer that we have ourselves, because this room has much more information about how you engage on a political level with Afghanistan than what Kieran and I will have.

But what we do know is that if Canada did take up the brokerage role of consulting women on what they believe the minimum standards should be in this negotiation process regarding their own rights, then that is something that can set the tone for the international community to say “Okay, gentlemen, you want to negotiate; don't forget there is this other half of your population whom your constitution, whom all the UN resolutions you've signed up to, whom CIDA, which you've signed up to, suggests that you do respect. We're going to remind you what the women are saying, and here's all the evidence of that.”

Use the women's voice to create that position. I think they are in a better place to know what the minimum standards should be rather than, as you say, perhaps this group of gentlemen who are in Kabul infrequently.

It's a sensitive and delicate thing. We do not want Canada to tie its hands in a way that makes it unproductive.