Evidence of meeting #19 for Special Committee on the Canadian Mission in Afghanistan in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was training.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

David Luxton  President and Chief Executive Officer, Allen Vanguard Corporation
John Inns  Principal, IPA Group
Geoff Poapst  Principal, IPA Group

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz

I'd like to bring meeting 19 to order. This is the Special Committee on the Canadian Mission in Afghanistan and we're continuing our study of the Canadian mission in Afghanistan.

Before us today we have witnesses from the Allen Vanguard Corporation and the IPA Group. From the Allen Vanguard Corporation we have David Luxton, the president and chief executive officer. Welcome, sir. From the IPA Group, we have John Inns, principal, and Geoff Poapst, also principal.

We welcome you, gentlemen. I presume you will have an opening statement that you're willing to share with us. Normally we allow about ten minutes for that, so you may each present.

Whenever you're ready, you may begin.

3:30 p.m.

David Luxton President and Chief Executive Officer, Allen Vanguard Corporation

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Good afternoon, honourable members, and thank you for this privilege of sharing with you today some thoughts from industry on the role that industry can play in Canada's future engagement in Afghanistan.

I'll tell you a little bit about Allen Vanguard, the company I head. We are a Canadian company, with our international headquarters here in Ottawa. We have manufacturing facilities in Ottawa, as well as in Pembroke, Ontario, some in the U.K. and the U.S., as well as professional services groups in those countries. We export our products and services to more than 100 countries. Our specific focus and expertise is mitigating and defeating the threat posed by improvised explosive devices and other weapons of terror that over the past decade have had a destabilizing effect on an increasing number of regions in the world.

In a NATO context, the improvised explosive device is an expected feature of future operations. Encountering IEDs has certainly become a major feature of the stabilization and counter-insurgency operations that currently occupy the alliance. Counter-IED is now widely understood to encompass three key areas or layers of capability: first, at the pointy end of the threat is defeating the IED device itself by locating and neutralizing it; second, protecting and training security forces against IEDs; and third, developing forensic and intelligence systems to identify and defeat the IED network that supplies, finances, and fabricates these lethal devices.

Increasingly nations are taking a systematic approach to carefully integrating this range of measures needed to protect their own forces from this threat and to defeat adversary IED systems that threaten not only military forces, but civilian populations as well.

In operational theatres such as Afghanistan, NATO has been providing effective counter-IED support to its own deployed nation forces. It has been very preoccupied with that in response to a threat that has grown almost exponentially over the past five years, while at the same time trying to devote some effort and resources to building the same capacity within indigenous Afghan security forces. Given the extremely dynamic nature of the IED threat, both technically and tactically, industry has been an integral part of this effort, not just in delivering timely technological solutions to military forces but also in providing direct operational support to deployed, deploying, and indigenous forces.

The operational partnership between the counter-IED industry and military and police forces is unique, and I would say growing stronger by the day—and not just in Afghanistan. Allen Vanguard's subject-matter experts, many of them veterans of conflict in Afghanistan and Iraq, play a very direct role in assisting dozens of nations to develop their capacity to protect themselves against IEDs.

In fact, our personnel have authored NATO counter-IED doctrine under our current multi-year contract to NATO Allied Command Transformation. Our employees have assisted national police and military forces around the world in developing counter-IED policy, strategies, and capabilities. Our highly specialized trainers conduct training in support of these efforts. As well, our scientists, engineers, and counter-IED specialists have developed anti-ballistic protective gear, radio frequency jammers, bomb disposal robots, protection equipment, intelligence products, and mobile forensics laboratories, all employed in the fight against IEDs around the world.

In sum, our people, who are overwhelmingly Canadians, are justifiably proud of the vital role they play every day in saving the lives of front-line personnel and vulnerable populations against the insidious threat of IEDs. It's certainly clear to us that Canadian industry does, and can, play a very meaningful and specific role in support of transition to Afghan security leadership between now and 2014.

Afghan officials are well aware of Allen Vanguard's expertise. As other Canadians note from time to time, we are perhaps better known internationally than at home. In fact, we were invited by Afghanistan's ambassador to Canada, His Excellency Jawed Ludin, to meet with Afghan ministers and senior officials in Kabul in mid-November.

We met with the First Vice-President, the Minister of Defence, the Minister of Interior, the head of the National Directorate of Security, the Deputy National Security Advisor, and others, and their messages were consistent and clear.

Minister of Defence Wardak was unequivocal. As he stated at NATO's defence ministerial meeting last June, transitioning to Afghan leadership must, as he said, be conditions-based, and these conditions include building key enabling capabilities currently provided by ISAF. He stated that he is not at all satisfied with the current state of his army's counter-IED equipment, training, and capabilities, and identified this as his top priority in relationship to leadership transition.

Minister of Interior Mohammadi also identified counter-IED capability as one of the biggest challenges to leadership transition, given that more than 80% of Afghan security force casualties are caused by IEDs. We were told that 15 to 20 civilians are dying each day, and on average six police per day, with most of these resulting from IEDs. The minister lamented that his police are on the front line and that today they are, in his words, completely reliant on ISAF response capabilities and are otherwise virtually defenceless against this threat.

NDS director Nabil made a similar plea, and Deputy National Security Advisor Abdali stressed the need for assistance in applying a strategic national approach that will join the efforts of the three security institutions involved to build capacity in an integrated and a sustainable way.

We also consulted closely with NATO authorities in Kabul and were fortunate to be able to meet with both the ISAF counter-IED staff and the NATO training mission representatives during our visit two weeks ago. We learned that, as demand for Afghan soldiers and police has escalated each year, NATO's main focus has necessarily been on training soldiers and leaders to a very basic level. The more specialized functions, such as counter-IED capabilities, have lagged.

They are now developing plans to address this counter-IED requirement, but the availability of specialized expertise to train, advise, mentor, and assist in managing counter-IED capacity-building programs has inhibited progress. NATO's military counter-IED specialists are understandably consumed with providing life-saving support to their own fighting troops, and they have very little if any residual capacity to contribute to building Afghan security force capacity. This is a serious constraint that distinguishes the counter-IED capacity-building need from other more generalized security functions.

This is why industry assistance can make an enormous difference.

To give you a clearer sense of the practical dimensions of the Afghan challenge, together NATO and Afghans have identified a need for almost 300 qualified Afghan counter-IED response teams, including almost 90 for the Afghan National Police, who are at the forefront of protecting vulnerable populations. By the end of August of this year, they had only been able to field one operational police counter-IED team.

I should hasten to add, though, that NATO's focus until now has been exclusively on just generating these individual teams. NATO staff in Kabul are just now able to turn their attention to the institutional enablers that will need to be developed to build a national system, the one that will bind together army, police, and intelligence agency efforts, the one that goes beyond defeating the IED device to defeating the IED network and bringing terrorist suspects to justice.

These are specific areas in which Allen Vanguard's particular expertise has been sought in assisting many other nations. I'm confident, actually, that before long we will be playing a helpful, strategic capacity-building role in support of NATO in Afghanistan as their requirements become better defined.

In conclusion, IEDs are a key factor impeding Afghan men, women, and children from living normal lives and constraining development workers from helping them to do so.

It's certainly clear to us, and I believe widely understood, that helping Afghans to counter the deadly and destabilizing IED threat will figure prominently in any planning for a transition from NATO to Afghan security leadership. And with little spare NATO capacity to commit to this particular effort in the near term, Canadian industry can make a valuable contribution in an area that will have both immediate and a long-term impact.

I'm hopeful that the committee will give this due consideration.

I thank you again for inviting me to share these thoughts. With that, I look forward to your questions.

Thank you.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz

Thank you very much, Mr. Luxton.

Now we'll turn to the IPA Group.

Are you both going to present or share your time?

3:40 p.m.

John Inns Principal, IPA Group

I'll be presenting, Mr. Chair.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz

Thank you. Go ahead.

3:40 p.m.

Principal, IPA Group

John Inns

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair and members of the committee. It's a great honour for me to be here today.

What we want to do is take a few moments to tell you a little bit about who we are, what we have done in Afghanistan, why management training is critical to building self-sufficiency in Afghanistan, and a bit about our approach to building administrative capacity, and also to offer a word or two about costs.

My name is John Inns. I am a principal of IPA Group. I'm a former government employee and have been an independent management consultant for 20 years. I specialize in organization development, performance management, and training.

I am anglophone. I was born in Montreal but I only learned a few words in French when playing hockey in the streets. Therefore, my knowledge of French is not sufficient, and I will speak English only.

My colleague Geoff Poapst has a similar pedigree to mine, and in addition is what I would call a renowned video producer.

We brought all these skills together in 2007 when we were approached by the Canadian Security Intelligence Service to design and deliver a western-style management training program for the Afghan National Directorate of Security. That request for western-style training came from the NDS director general Amrullah Saleh, who was the director at the time. He realized that you can teach intelligence officers to investigate crimes and pursue terrorists, but it was still an uphill battle if that manager lacked a fundamental grasp of management concepts like strategic planning, setting goals, and holding people accountable for results.

NDS wanted a more effective organization, with a more open, collegial, and less autocratic management culture. So those were our marching orders. In 2007 and 2008 we put 400 NDS personnel through our program, a mid-management-level training program, and a further 100 senior officials through an executive leadership training program. In our view, all indicators showed that this work was a success.

Several months after the course had been delivered, we evaluated the ability of NDS to implement the training materials we had given them. We toured nine NDS offices, including regional offices in Panjshir, Nangarhar, and Parwan. The graduates from the middle management training program told us that they were working smarter, significantly more effectively. We measured the output of productivity improvements they acquired by using the training instruments and had productivity improvements in excess of 50%. This was gratifying news, which confirmed what we had seen in the classroom—that most senior leaders and middle managers at NDS were open to new ideas and had a real thirst for knowledge. As I said, I'm a professional trainer. I've trained thousands of people in North America. I would say that these were some of the best students I have ever been exposed to in my training career.

Based on those results, NDS saw that we needed to train perhaps 3,000 managers and 500 executives. They saw that a critical mass needed to be trained in western management tools in order to develop an organization that was more effective, accountable, and results-producing. We got the same sort of endorsement from the CSIS director, Jim Judd, and Ambassador Ron Hoffmann. At the time, they wanted us to finish the work required to produce that trained critical mass in NDS, and then to move on to do ANP. At that time we were expected to go back, but the work was suspended because NDS was unable to free up resources, because the writ had been dropped for the Afghan election in 2009. There was no one available to be trained at that point, and we have been on hold ever since, as the Canadian government rethought its strategy on Afghanistan.

With the commitment to move Afghanistan towards self-sufficiency by 2014, we wanted to get back in the game using a program that we think has already proven to be effective. Management training is not as sexy or interesting as building schools or dams, and not as tangible as teaching police how to shoot, do riot control, or conduct investigations. But in our view, technical training will not move Afghanistan towards self-sufficiency. Indeed, the Canadian-proposed efforts to build technical capacity will go for naught if the organizations lack the administrative capacity to put technical skills to work effectively.

I have to tell you that we have been talking to your confreres in the States. We were in Washington in June, and at that time a report was issued by the special inspector general for Afghanistan reconstruction. The report assessed an ANP unit that had been successfully trained and had a vehicle and equipment evaluation that was at the top level. The vehicles were ready to go, but no one was in a position to drive the vehicles. As we said to our American hosts, fixing cars and trucks is a technical challenge, and there's no question that there's merit in technical skills. But making sure you have people who can fix and drive the vehicles is a management challenge. And it's just as important if you're actually going to be effective in catching crooks.

That one case in point sure helped to make the penny drop, as we are now part of a consortium bidding on the U.S. government's $3-billion piece of work to restructure and retrain all of the Afghan National Police, 142,000 people. We also teamed up with Deloitte Consulting to explore opportunities for police-sector capacity-building in Afghanistan, Sudan, and Somalia.

Our experience in Washington was also gratifying, in that we came to appreciate that our training was unique, and also very Canadian. Unlike our American friends, the Brits, or the Russians, we don't tend to go around the world telling people what they ought to be doing, and that shows up in our methodology. Let me give you some of the details of our methodology. We can show you some examples at the end of the presentation if you wish.

First, we are significantly less prescriptive than typical American or European trainers. We don't impose western ideas. We don't lecture participants. Instead we show participants how westerners would handle a typical management challenge that Afghans would have been confronted with perhaps even on a daily basis. We work with them to come up with an Afghan approach and an Afghan management tool best suited to their work environment. In the end, it's no longer a western idea; it's their idea and they own it. With their owning that solution, they are predisposed to using that as a solution to the problem they see.

Secondly, we rely very heavily on custom-made, native video training aids. They tell the participants we've done something special for them, we've made a particular effort. When I turn on the projector, they know they're in for something completely different, but there's also more to it than that. In Afghanistan, as I'm sure most of you are aware, translation is an absolute nightmare. It's very difficult to get your point across. We found we were inventing Dari lexicon because the words did not exist in Dari.

We produced 140 minutes of Dari and Pashto video to illustrate key lessons in management situations and we summarized daily learning for the participants. We also gave them homework assignments to use the management tools that were part of the training program. We shot all this in Toronto, using Afghan Canadian actors.

We also used the video to bring the voice of the boss into the classroom, and this was absolutely critical. As you know, Afghanistan has a very autocratically based public sector. When their minister or their deputy minister comes into the room and explains to the participants that this program is absolutely critical for their career and this organization, and if they don't use these tools they will have no career in the organization, you start to have a fairly motivated batch of participants. We captured that in video and we showed that to every classroom we had access to.

Finally, and this is crucial, we gear our training programs to an overall organization development strategy. We work with the top leaders to find their vision, what their vision is, where they want to go, important policy issues: human rights, corruption fighting, etc. We tailored the program to specifically address those policy issues because we have already identified, with the deputy minister or with the minister, that these are key policy issues he wants to change. That works to address these policy issues through the training program.

It also shows the participants where the organization is headed, and in so doing it makes them accountable to produce a set of results that will make a contribution to that corporate vision. It makes them personally accountable and it gets everyone pulling the organization in the same direction.

That's how we delivered the management program in Afghanistan.

Let me say a couple of words about cost. If you were to take this management course or had some of your staff take this course--I'm an instructor at the Canadian Management Centre--you would take the same course, obviously in English or French, at a cost of $2,500 per participant. We ended up delivering that program to 500 people in Afghanistan at the same cost per participant as we delivered it in Toronto. I think that's very significant. That doesn't include some of the travel costs and that sort of thing, but we're in the same ballpark.

Of course that number would fall if the fixed costs were amortized over a larger participant population, especially if we equipped a contingent of our military trainers to deliver the program. The real cost leverage would come from training Afghans to train themselves. We don't believe that has been properly addressed in Afghanistan to date. We believe if that were significantly dealt with, that would make a significant Canadian legacy.

Let me wrap up by saying that there is more to building the security sector in Afghanistan than simply providing technical training. We must also help them build an effective organization, to develop that organization. From my 1,600 hours of classroom time in Afghanistan, we have a significant amount of ground to cover in the future.

Finally, let me say that administrative capacity-building takes time, and you can't do it in half measures. Critical mass needs to be produced across all levels of the organization, from the technical person up to the management and leadership levels. If you want an organization to change and to be more effective, to be more respective of human rights, to be more vigilant in fighting corruption, you have to train that critical mass. At NDS that number was touted as 3,000. At ANP we believe it to be in the order of magnitude of 30,000 people, and therefore it demands proper, custom-tailored, train-the-trainer programs.

We have a proven approach to administrative capacity-building. We need to tweak it, in view of what we have learned at NDS, but we are essentially ready to go, and the Afghans have asked for this specific assistance.

Omar Samad, the previous Afghan ambassador, said he saw a need for this to be delivered over a thousand times in Afghanistan. The existing Afghan ambassador has urged--and you listened to him a few weeks ago--that the work at NDS continue with the training and development of that organization, because it is the lead entity in the Afghan law enforcement sector.

We're keen to work with the military and the RCMP to make all of this work, put the capacity in place, develop the organizations, and move Afghanistan toward self-sufficiency.

Thank you for your time. I'll be pleased to answer your questions or show you any of the video methodology.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz

Thank you very much.

We'll immediately move to the official opposition.

Mr. Rae, you indicated you want to open up.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Bob Rae Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

Yes, Mr. Chairman.

I hope our guests understand that we're not in a position to consider the advantages of one company's technology or expertise as opposed to another. As we go forward it's important for us to be very clear that we don't make those kinds of decisions in this committee. We certainly give people an opportunity to talk about what they're doing, but we're not here to advocate on behalf of one company or another.

I've had the opportunity to meet with both representatives, as well as with a number of others, over the last year and a half. I think what they're talking about in each case is significant. I also think it's important for us to recognize, for example, Mr. Luxton, that other companies would also be competitive or engaging in activity and research on IEDs. I can imagine the field must be very crowded right now with companies looking at the technical means of dealing with the impact of IEDs.

These are killer instruments in every jurisdiction where they're being used. Their impact is huge on civilian life in Pakistan and Afghanistan at the moment, as well in as a number of other countries where this kind of device is being used. They're very cheap, relatively easy to use, can be set off with a cellphone, and are widely available. I can imagine that the efforts to counter the impacts of these machines must be equally widespread throughout Europe, the United States, and North America.

Would that be a correct statement?

3:55 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Allen Vanguard Corporation

David Luxton

It certainly takes a big effort to respond to it, because there's no silver or magic bullet to this. It takes a systems approach. There are a number of elements to that. For that reason, there are not very many countries in the world that have that full range of capability.

One of the things that's attractive to a number of countries--and we know is certainly attractive to the Afghans--is Canada's recognized capability in this area, and that comes largely from industry. Of course they know that our own forces have had very direct experiences with IEDs and their consequences. So there is a perception in the global marketplace that Canada has a unique capability in this regard--certainly a world-leading capability. We find ourselves frequently the go-to organization for providing those kinds of solutions. That is why, for example, we are the lead advisers to NATO under a multi-year contract to provide these kinds of services.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Bob Rae Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

Without blowing your own horn--and I realize that's a natural human tendency--and trying to be as objective as you can, what would make Canada in general, and your company in particular, better able to do this than others?

3:55 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Allen Vanguard Corporation

David Luxton

It's that range of capability. You have to do a lot of things and work together as a system to be able to counter IEDs. I'm not blowing our horn here, but I would be hard pressed--and I think many in the industry and in security forces would be hard pressed--to point to any other organization that has that breadth of capability and has done this kind of capacity-building in as many countries as we have. That's not always done just by Allen Vanguard; it's often done in collaboration and partnership with security forces that are a contributing part of that solution--just to be balanced about it.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Bob Rae Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

When we were in Afghanistan—I'm looking at my colleagues, and I don't think we're divulging anything we're not supposed to talk about—we were shown a number of devices and a number of machines that were used to decommission and deal with the IED challenge. Is the possibility of actually being able to detect them or to disrupt the airwaves that would ignite them getting any better?

3:55 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Allen Vanguard Corporation

David Luxton

Again, not to get into classified areas of this, but the threat continues to evolve, so technology and methods continue to evolve in lockstep. In fact we do a great deal of R and D ourselves to stay ahead of that curve, stay ahead of the threat, and anticipate where it's going. And we do provide a lot of that enabling equipment you would have seen, as well as training and operational support to be able to do the part you were talking about, which is to locate these things in the first place and then neutralize them so that they can be safely disposed of.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Bob Rae Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

I think my colleague Mr. Wilfert had a question, Mr. Chairman.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz

Yes, and just for the information of the committee, we'll let the Liberals finish their round before we go to the House to vote. We'll suspend and come back after the vote.

Mr. Wilfert, go ahead.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Bryon Wilfert Liberal Richmond Hill, ON

Mr. Chairman, I'll wait until the second round. I'll let Mr. Dion go ahead.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz

Okay.

Mr. Dion.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Stéphane Dion Liberal Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC

We're playing “take time to organize yourself”.

Welcome.

I would like to know more about how difficult it is to learn to use it. What does the training mean? In order to protect soldiers against these weapons, how long does it take to train somebody to use it?

3:55 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Allen Vanguard Corporation

David Luxton

Of course, as you might imagine, Mr. Dion, there are levels of capability and levels of expertise. It's been our experience in many countries around the world that it is possible to take people from quite a rudimentary level, really take them from zero, and be able to, in a relatively short period of time, start to train them in some of the basics, the pointy end of the problem, which is the identification and location of IEDs and the safe disposal of those IEDs. There is equipment and there are techniques that are quite absorbable by indigenous forces, and we do this routinely with them around the world. They're very teachable.

When you get to higher levels of capability and you talk about trying to defeat the network of the people who finance these, place them, and fabricate them, we are typically then dealing with indigenous security agencies that are quite sophisticated.

My colleague mentioned the NDS, which I'm sure you're familiar with, in Afghanistan. This is a group that is staffed by professionals. They are very impressive, and they have all the capability in the world to be able to absorb the kinds of equipment and the kinds of techniques that we would normally provide so that they can be building up an integrated intelligence picture of the IED network.

4 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz

Mr. Dion, go ahead very briefly.

4 p.m.

Liberal

Stéphane Dion Liberal Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC

Is the maintenance difficult to do?

4 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Allen Vanguard Corporation

David Luxton

This equipment is made to be easily maintained and to be maintained by indigenous forces as well as our own Canadian and other NATO forces. So it's an important part of what we provide by way of a solution. There is in fact often a strong preference to be dealing with Canada and have Canadian solutions, because that is the philosophy behind what we provide. Whereas other countries may provide a bit of equipment and they leave it behind and good luck to you, the right approach, of course, is to provide equipment with training and with life-cycle support for that equipment so that there is sustainable capability against this threat that continues to evolve.

4 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz

We'll suspend until after the vote and then Mr. Bachand can ask his questions.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz

I'd like to reconvene this meeting.

We're continuing with our witnesses from the Allen Vanguard Corporation and the IPA Group.

I'll turn the microphone over to Mr. Bachand from the Bloc for his questions and comments.

4:45 p.m.

Bloc

Claude Bachand Bloc Saint-Jean, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to welcome the industry representatives.

What does your acronym stand for? I presume the I stands for Inns and P for Poapst. But what about A...