Evidence of meeting #3 for Special Committee on the Canadian Mission in Afghanistan in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was afghanistan.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Jillian Stirk  Assistant Deputy Minister, Afghanistan Task Force, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade
Greta Bossenmaier  Deputy Minister, Afghanistan Task Force, Privy Council Office
William F. Pentney  Associate Deputy Minister, Department of National Defence
Robert Davidson  Director of Staff, Strategic Joint Staff, Department of National Defence
Françoise Ducros  Vice-President, Afghanistan Task Force, Canadian International Development Agency

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Good afternoon. This is the third meeting of the Special Committee on the Canadian Mission in Afghanistan, on Thursday, March 25, 2010.

In our second hour today, we will go to committee business. There is a portion there that will be public, and a very short portion dealing with the budget that will be in camera.

We are continuing our study of the Canadian mission in Afghanistan. Appearing as our witness today is the Honourable Lawrence Cannon, Minister of Foreign Affairs.

Minister Cannon, I welcome you to our committee. I thank you for responding positively on very short notice. Initially we had asked you to appear yesterday and your schedule wasn't allowing you to do that, but you made a spot clear because the committee had requested your attendance. So we thank you for that.

Before we give you the opportunity, we also have appearing, from the Privy Council Office, Greta Bossenmaier, deputy minister for the Afghanistan task force. It's my understanding that Ms. Bossenmaier will stick with us in the second hour as well.

We will have in the second hour, from the Department of National Defence, William Pentney, the associate deputy minister.

Jillian Stirk, the assistant deputy minister for the Afghanistan task force, is here as well.

Minister Cannon, thank you for attending, and we look forward to your opening comments. The committee will then go into the first round of questioning, which will be a ten-minute round.

Welcome.

3:30 p.m.

Pontiac Québec

Conservative

Lawrence Cannon ConservativeMinister of Foreign Affairs

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair and members of the committee, for inviting me to speak to you as chair of the cabinet committee on Afghanistan, to highlight Canada's work in Afghanistan as profiled in the recently tabled seventh quarterly report on Canada's engagement in Afghanistan.

I will be available for only one hour, colleagues. However, officials from across the whole of the government community, including the Department of Foreign Affairs, CIDA, the Department of National Defence, and the deputy minister of the Privy Council Office's Afghanistan task force, will be available after my departure to continue the discussion on the quarterly reports.

Let me begin, colleagues, as we sadly must, by paying tribute to the courage and the sacrifice of Corporal Darren James Fitzpatrick, who succumbed to his wounds on the weekend after an IED attack in Kandahar on March 6. We praise the men and women of the Canadian Forces and our civilian staff who seek to help Afghanistan achieve peace and security. Their dedication will never be forgotten.

Without a doubt, the dangers of Canada's mission in Afghanistan are ever-present and the challenges to achieving progress there continue to be daunting, yet there is clear evidence that the efforts of our soldiers, our development workers, our police and customs officers, and our diplomats are all making a difference.

Despite the volatile security environment, the economic impoverishment, and the governance problems that persist, we are seeing tangible improvement in the daily lives of Afghans, as I will highlight over the next few minutes.

Most of you will be very familiar with the set of priorities and signature projects that Canada established in 2008, following the recommendations made by the Manley panel. You're aware of the 21 benchmarks and 44 progress indicators we developed to track our progress. And you have read that the quarterly reports we have produced to communicate the results of our work to Parliament and to Canadians—the seventh of which was tabled last week.

The latest report covers the period from October 1 to the end of 2009. Along with an update on our targets, this report also provides a snapshot of Canadian engagement at the national level in Afghanistan; that is, beyond the vital work we are doing in Kandahar province.

It comes as no surprise, however, that the progress we achieved this past quarter—to which I will speak in more detail later—was set against the backdrop of increasing instability caused by the uncertainty in Afghanistan.

The efforts of Afghans and the international community in Afghanistan continue to be undermined by those who seek destabilization through the constant threat of improvised explosive devices, targeted suicide attacks—aimed increasingly at innocent Afghan civilians—and a campaign of intimidation of Afghan government officials and ordinary citizens.

Last October, for example, insurgents attacked the UN guest house in Kabul, killing and wounding Afghans, UN employees and international security personnel. And two weeks ago, insurgents executed a series of coordinated attacks in Kandahar on the Sarposa prison. As we will explain in the next quarterly report, insurgents failed in their attempts to create havoc at the prison, thanks in large part to Canadian mentoring and training of prison staff and Canadian support to the prison's infrastructure.

I am pleased to report that, last quarter, thanks to Canadian efforts, two additional targets were achieved, bringing the total to four. Over 23,500 people in Kandahar have had literacy training and over 4,150 Kandaharis—four times our target—have had vocational training. Additionally, over 200,000 Kandaharis have received “mine-awareness education”, a vital part of keeping Afghans safe from the harmful effects of landmines and explosive remnants of war.

Over 52,000 mines were cleared this past quarter. Clearly, Canada's work on landmines is having a major impact: during the last quarter of 2009, the number of landmine victims dropped significantly and farmers are regaining access to land that had previously not been usable for agriculture. This is just one example of the tangible improvements we are making in the daily lives of Afghans.

We also completed another two schools in our education signature project. Fourteen out of 50 schools have been completed and another 28 schools are under construction. In the next quarterly report, you will see these numbers increase even further.

Teacher training, another vital component of education, also progressed with another 197 teachers trained, bringing the cumulative total to 341.

And the Dahla dam—another Canadian signature project—continues according to plan, with consultation to improve local security conditions in advance of the work that will take place during the dry season. An additional fifty jobs were created by the Dahla dam project this past quarter, bringing the total to 405.

Canada's third signature project is the eradication of polio. During the reporting quarter, nearly 400,000 children in Kandahar province were vaccinated against this deadly disease.

Canada contributed to the curriculum of the Afghan National Customs Academy during the reporting quarter. And in January, classes began. This past week, 48 customs officers graduated from the academy.

In the area of policing, one of Canada's key achievements in the last quarter was the signing of the Kandahar Model Police Project Charter. The project will team Afghan police officers with Canadian policeman mentors, and help to make the Afghan police more responsive to the people of Kandahar and more accountable to government.

In an effort to address the recruitment and retention problems in the Afghan National Police, Canada supported the approval of a new pay and incentive package which included pay raises for the police, bringing them to parity with the Afghan National Army, a longevity raise every three years and an increase in the hazard duty incentive pay.

Canada provides financial support for this initiative through the Law and Order Trust Fund for Afghanistan. But in the spirit of honest and frank reporting, we have also reported that progress has not advanced as far as we might have liked across the board. Afghan public perceptions of the security situation in their communities continue to deteriorate. Retention and recruitment problems are limiting the progress we are making in the capacity and building of both the Afghan National Army and the Afghan National Police.

And the number of polio cases reported nationally increased. None of this, however, should imply that Canada has failed in its efforts. Rather, it points to the fact that progress will be made at different paces and that factors outside of our control will have an impact on our ability to meet our commitments.

Measuring progress in the midst of conflict is no easy task, but Canada continues to deliver on its commitments to help Afghans rebuild their country as a stable, democratic and self-sufficient society.

Mr. Chair, corruption has been cited as one of the biggest challenges facing Afghanistan's development. President Karzai addressed this issue in his inaugural speech last November and pledged at the London conference in January to tackle corruption as a priority of his government.

Canada is also working to help Afghans fight corruption at various levels. Our police mentors have helped develop an anti-corruption strategy for the Afghan National Police and the interior ministry. Canada has also provided an anti-corruption advisor to the Afghan Attorney General's Office and we have provided the UNDP with a $1.5 million grant to support their anti-corruption activities in the Ministry of Education.

It goes without saying that we cannot achieve progress in our priority areas without a strong and effective Afghan government. The London conference in late January, at which I represented Canada, was an important opportunity to reaffirm the commitment of the international community to work with the new government of Afghanistan to accelerate the transition to an Afghan-led security environment.

We are also encouraged by President Karzai's move to launch a new political process for reconciliation. Canada has always supported a national reconciliation process that is based on the acceptance by all groups within Afghan society of the central government's legitimacy and authority as well as respect for the rule of law.

At the London conference, Canada also announced it is contributing $25 million to counter-narcotic efforts, bringing our total commitment in this area to over $55 million.

Afghanistan will again be a priority area for discussion at the meeting of G8 Foreign Affairs Ministers that I will chair in Gatineau in a few days' time. In particular, I hope to build with my G8 colleagues on the important work Canada has been doing to help Afghans and Pakistanis manage their shared border. Pakistan too faces its own economic, political and social difficulties; and I want to examine how we can further encourage and assist Pakistan as well.

Allow me to conclude my statement by reiterating that despite the still very challenging security situation, this latest quarterly report is a testament to the fact that we are making a concrete difference.

I am pleased to answer any questions you may have, colleagues, and officials from the whole-of-government community on Afghanistan will continue the discussion after my departure.

Thank you.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you very much, Minister Cannon, for your introductory remarks in regard to the quarterly report that was brought forward here.

We're going to go to the first round and we will go to Mr. Rae.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Bob Rae Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I'll be sharing my time, I hope.

Minister, I gathered from your exchange today with the leader of the opposition and with Mr. Mulcair that the government's commitment to withdraw militarily from Afghanistan by the 2011 agreed date is firm and unequivocal. Is that right?

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Lawrence Cannon Conservative Pontiac, QC

Let me point out, Mr. Rae, that in accordance with the parliamentary motion of March 2008, Canada's military mission will end in 2011. We will continue to have a development and diplomatic relationship with Afghanistan through the Canadian embassy in Kabul, as I mentioned today, as we do with other countries in the world.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Bob Rae Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

So if a Conservative Party candidate were to say that he was in favour of renewing a mandate beyond 2011 and of having a parliamentary debate about that, what would your response be to that?

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Lawrence Cannon Conservative Pontiac, QC

You have asked me to state the Government of Canada's position and I've stated the Government of Canada's position. If you want to have a discussion on party policy, we'll invite you to come to our sessions.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Bob Rae Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

If a candidate were to say, for example, that to his knowledge torture was commonplace in Afghanistan from the time of the arrival of the troops, and that in his view there was absolutely no alternative that could in fact prevent that from happening within Afghan institutions, what would your response be to that?

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Lawrence Cannon Conservative Pontiac, QC

My response would be that following the flawed and skewed arrangement that was there previously, we indeed corrected that by putting in a new arrangement, a new prisoner transfer agreement that allowed us to have access to the prisoners at any time.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Bob Rae Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

I gather that Mr. Chris Alexander, who is the former Canadian ambassador to Afghanistan, and the deputy head of the UN in Afghanistan, and a Conservative candidate, has said in effect that torture was widespread, and that it was systematic in the system, that abuse of prisoners was systematic in the system, and that in his view there was absolutely no alternative but to continue to transfer prisoners to Afghanistan. And in his view there was never a question of either Dutch or Canadian or British or anybody else's troops conducting themselves inappropriately, but there were certainly a great many instances of abuse inside Afghan prisons. In his view there was no alternative because the decision not to create what might be called a parallel justice system was absolutely clear on the part of the Government of Canada. He said there was no alternative to what's happened. Would you share the view that there is no alternative to what's happened?

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Lawrence Cannon Conservative Pontiac, QC

You know, any time that serious and credible allegations have been put forward, the chain of command of the Canadian Forces has looked into that issue.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Bob Rae Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

My question, Minister, is that it's becoming increasingly clear--and even with the pile of documents that my friend is going to talk about--the evidence is just overwhelming that there was a systematic problem with respect to abuse inside the Afghan prison system. And the response of the Canadian government seems to be that we had no choice, we did what we had to do, and we can't guarantee that it was effective. People seem to say that's good enough and that's a high enough standard. But isn't the international law standard different? Doesn't it actually say that you cannot transfer people into a situation where they're at serious risk of being tortured?

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Lawrence Cannon Conservative Pontiac, QC

That might have been policy in the previous government's case, but indeed what we were able to do was to fix the problem. We fixed what you have described as being a systematic problem. We fixed it by putting in a new transfer agreement.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Bob Rae Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

So you're saying that after 2006 there are no instances when--

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Lawrence Cannon Conservative Pontiac, QC

No, I'm not saying that.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Bob Rae Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

--torture occurred inside the Afghan prison system.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Lawrence Cannon Conservative Pontiac, QC

Don't put words in my mouth--

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Bob Rae Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

Well, you seemed to imply that.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Lawrence Cannon Conservative Pontiac, QC

Don't put words in my mouth, Mr. Rae.

What I'm saying to you is that there was a problem, apparently. We were able to fix the problem. We fixed it by putting in a new transfer agreement that enabled us to go and visit any time we chose, and to withhold transfer until such time as the commander of our forces was satisfied that the conditions were proper and that they did follow all the conditions that had been enumerated in the arrangement. That is what I'm saying.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Bob Rae Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

Okay.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Go ahead, Mr. Wilfert.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Bryon Wilfert Liberal Richmond Hill, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Minister, in your report you talk about issues regarding anti-corruption and issues of the rule of law, yet it seems that the Government of Afghanistan is now in a position of having passed a law that basically gives a blanket pardon for perpetrators of war crimes.

We know that the president met last week with one of the major factions opposing his government in Afghanistan. This means essentially that anyone who committed crimes since the overthrow of the Taliban basically is getting a free get-out-of-jail pass. We have people on the ground there who are dealing with anti-corruption, as pointed out on page 9 of your report; can you comment on this, Minister, and tell us what influence, if any, our advisors on the ground have with regard to this type of situation?

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Lawrence Cannon Conservative Pontiac, QC

I can address it on a summary basis, and then maybe Ms. Stirk can take over.

Canada and its international partners note that the amnesty law was gazetted by the Government of Afghanistan in November 2008 and recently made public. We continue to seek clarification on the final text of the law and to urge the Government of Afghanistan to ensure that all laws are consistent with the Afghan constitution and Afghanistan's international legal obligations.

If the law creates an amnesty for individuals responsible for war crimes, crimes against humanity, or other gross violations of human rights, it would violate Afghanistan's international legal obligations, as you know. Canada will continue to support the efforts of Afghan civil society to seek clarification on the passage and the coming into force of this legislation. Canada has raised its concerns with the law at the appropriate levels within the Government of Afghanistan, including the Afghan foreign affairs minister, whom I met with earlier this month and with whom I had the opportunity to discuss this matter.

Canada has long underlined the importance of justice and reconciliation in the Afghan context and has publicly and privately called on Afghan officials to implement the Afghan transitional justice action plan. Promoting and protecting human rights in Afghanistan is a core element of Canada's engagement in Afghanistan. We regularly raise issues of human rights with the Afghan government.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Bryon Wilfert Liberal Richmond Hill, ON

Did our advisors on the ground alert our government to this situation? What was our response, given that it would clearly violate international law, particularly in the area of human rights?

3:55 p.m.

Jillian Stirk Assistant Deputy Minister, Afghanistan Task Force, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

Mr. Chairman, indeed our ambassador did alert us to this law. In fact, we were made aware some time ago. Since then, as Minister Cannon has mentioned, we've been making a number of representations in addition to those that Minister Cannon himself made. Our ambassador has been very active on the ground in Kabul in calling on various ministers of the government to bring this situation to their attention and to suggest that they review this law.

In addition, we're working very closely with the human rights organizations on the ground to help support them in their efforts. We feel very strongly that it's also quite important that Afghans themselves take a lead on all of these issues, and indeed that they take responsibility for their own affairs. We're there to help, to support, and to raise these concerns, but of course it is important that ultimately they be the first in line in pursuing these issues.