Afghanistan Committee on March 25th, 2010

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

For the past year or so, Canada has been pursuing a process of population-centred operations rather than insurgency-centred operations, and the Americans have picked up on that. What's your view of the progress in this and progress in the longer term in actually winning the hearts and minds of the people?

[Lawrence Cannon, Conservative, Pontiac, QC]

As I mentioned before in my statement or in response to one of the questions, we've been able to increase our presence and take over some of the areas.

I'll let Greta Bossenmaier respond to that specific tactic.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Go very quickly, please. We will have the deputy minister in the second hour.

[Greta Bossenmaier]

I'll be very brief, Mr. Chairman.

The fact that other countries, including the United States and the broader ISAF forces, are looking to the Canadian model, which is a population-centric model for engaging with the population, for the broader ISAF forces and ISAF operations, is very telling, I think, of the success we're having.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you very much.

I thank you all.

Minister, thanks again for coming. We commend you on this report. Thank you for the transparency that the government has shown in the work that's going on and the work that has yet to go on. We thank you for coming and updating this committee.

We're going to suspend for a couple of moments and then are going to come right back. The deputy minister will have a very brief statement, and we may proceed into questioning again.

We'll take about a one- or two-minute suspension.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

In our second hour today, we'll continue with our study on the Canadian mission in Afghanistan, perhaps a little more specifically dealing with the seventh quarterly report to Parliament, for the period of October 1 to December 31, 2009.

Continuing with us in this hour—actually in these approximately 40 minutes, because we're going to try to keep about 15 minutes for committee business—we have Ms. Greta Bossenmaier, deputy minister of the Afghanistan task force; Mr. William Pentney, associate deputy minister from the Department of National Defence; Ms. Jillian Stirk, assistant deputy minister, Afghanistan task force, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Development; Madame Françoise Ducros, vice-president, Afghanistan task force, from the Canadian International Development Agency; and also from the Department of National Defence, Rear Admiral Robert Davidson, director of strategic joint staff.

Ms. Bossenmaier, I believe you have a very brief opening statement. We thank you for your input into the last hour and welcome you again. We look forward to what you have to say.

[Greta Bossenmaier]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. And I will be brief.

Mr. Chair, members of the committee, thank you for inviting me to be here this afternoon.

As Minister Cannon has indicated, making and measuring progress in the midst of conflict is not an easy task, but Canada continues to deliver on its commitment to help Afghans rebuild their country as a stable, democratic and self- sufficient society.

Following the key recommendations of the Manley panel, the Afghanistan task force within the Privy Council Office was formed in 2008 to help coordinate and ensure the effectiveness of Canada's efforts in Afghanistan.

I am privileged to work on a daily basis with dedicated colleagues from across government on this important Canadian and international priority.

As I heard, you want to speak about the seventh quarterly report. The quarterly reports are really a whole-of-government effort, and I thought it would be appropriate to have representatives from the whole-of-government team here to join me. It really is the nature of our work to work in collaboration. The degree to which so many different departments and agencies are working hand-in-glove, in Ottawa and especially on the ground in Afghanistan in what really can be called “one mission and one team”, is unprecedented, especially given the conditions under which our colleagues in Afghanistan work.

In keeping with this whole-of-government approach, we have here a representative team of the folks both in Canada and on the ground in Afghanistan who are working on this whole-of-government effort and have contributed to the quarterly reports.

Thank you very much.

We welcome your questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you.

We'll move into the first round.

Mr. Rae.

[Bob Rae, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

This may seem like a strange question, but how many Afghan task forces are there?

[Greta Bossenmaier]

The term “Afghan task force”, Mr. Chair, doesn't always fit exactly. There is one within the Privy Council Office; there is one within the Department of National Defence; we have a representative here this afternoon from CIDA, and she is responsible for an Afghanistan and a Pakistan task force, a bit of a different model. We have colleagues who work in the Department of Public Safety. They don't necessarily follow a task force model, but they're playing a very important part in the overall Afghanistan effort. Then, colleagues within the Department of National Defence and the Canadian Forces don't necessarily call themselves a task force or follow a task force mode, but they are of course critical elements within the overall Afghanistan effort for Canada.

So I would say that there isn't necessarily a one-size-fits-all model, but you have efforts from across a multitude of departments and agencies and the Canadian Forces that are part of this whole-of-government “one mission, one team” working in Afghanistan and also working here in Ottawa.

[Bob Rae, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

When I read the Manley report, Ms. Bossenmaier, my impression was that he was looking for a real attempt to coordinate what everybody is doing, all together. My impression—maybe I have the wrong impression—is that we still have silos: we have CIDA doing their thing; we have DFAIT with their task force; we have PCO with their task force and DND with their work. Obviously, there are other ministries involved as well.

Are you coordinating the coordinators? How many people are we talking about here? What is the size of the overall effort at managing and coordinating the mission?

[Greta Bossenmaier]

I think the fact that we're all here today is really a representation of this whole-of- government effort. It is a coordinated and coherent effort.

One of my main tasks in the task force within the Privy Council Office is to help ensure that we have a coordinated, coherent, integrated approach. It starts from the cabinet committee on Afghanistan, which we support. We have a deputy ministers committee on Afghanistan as well, and a number of other groups that are working in a coordinated and integrated manner.

The quarterly report that you see in front of you is an indication of that, in the sense that it is pulling together the overall efforts, progress, results, and challenges from across the whole-of-government team.

What you're seeing reflected here in Ottawa is also reflected on the ground, where we have an integrated approach both within our embassy in Kabul and with the teams in Kandahar that are working in terms of “one mission, one team”.

[Bob Rae, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

I'll give my remaining time to Mr. Dosanjh.

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

How much time do I have?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

You have five minutes.

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

That's wonderful. Thank you.

I have a question; I don't know whether it's appropriate. I'll ask it. If it's not appropriate, you can tell me. If you can't answer it, I'll accept that.

I understand that there is an equivalent of CSIS at DFAIT, and it's called the Security and Intelligence Branch. Can you tell us whether or not that particular agency works with JTF-2 and CSIS? And is there any information-sharing between them?

[Jillian Stirk]

Mr. Chair, I have a colleague who is responsible for international security issues at the Department of Foreign Affairs, but I don't believe we have a branch, exactly, as you have described it. I'm afraid I wouldn't be in a position to comment on relationships with other agencies outside of the Department of Foreign Affairs.

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Right. Can anyone? No? All right.

As the next question, I want to seek a clarification of what Mr. Obhrai asked. He accused me of making a statement. I actually sought a clarification, and one didn't come.

You've heard the minister say that we've made 210 visits to prisons in Afghanistan. Does that mean that we've actually visited various prisons in 210 separate visits? Or does it mean that we have visited a number of times and the total of prisoners interviewed or seen during those visits has been 210?

[Jillian Stirk]

Mr. Chairman, to build on the minister's statement, we have conducted 210 separate visits. There is a very small number of prisons to which Canadian detainees are actually transferred, but this refers to the number of actual visits by Canadians to visit the prisoners.

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

And how many prisoners have been seen during those 210 visits?

[Jillian Stirk]

I don't have the precise numbers of prisoners seen, because of course that number varies all the time. What I can tell you is that since 2007 when the supplemental agreement was put in place, some 200 visits have taken place. Some prisoners would be seen more than once. It would depend upon how long they're actually in the prison. Others might only be seen on a single occasion, if they were released.

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Thank you.

I have no other questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Mr. Dosanjh.

We'll move to Madame Lalonde.

[Francine Lalonde, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Mr. Bachand will speak a little later.

The risk that transferred detainees will be tortured can affect Canada's ability to convince others that it really cares about Afghans and their fate. In other words, it is not simply a matter of knowing whether the answer is yes or no. This issue is only one piece of the puzzle, and we are trying to help Afghans live better lives and know what their rights are.

Why does Canada feel it is safe to continue to transfer detainees, when British forces believe there is a risk of torture and therefore stopped transferring detainees? There has to be a good reason, but there isn't. You are risking destroying everything which has been achieved so far.

[William F. Pentney, Associate Deputy Minister, Department of National Defence]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you for your question.

First, as the minister, Mr. Cannon, has just said, the British have not stopped their transfers. That is not true. However, we do not want to speak on behalf of the British.

The commander on the field has to be satisfied—