Evidence of meeting #4 for Special Committee on the Canadian Mission in Afghanistan in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was nds.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Cory Anderson  Political Director (2008-2009), Provincial Reconstruction Team, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade
Denis William Thompson  Chief of Staff, Land Operations, Department of National Defence

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Bonjour, chers collègues.

Good afternoon. Today is Wednesday, March 31, 2010, and this is meeting number four of the Special Committee on the Canadian Mission in Afghanistan.

I would remind everyone that today we are televised, and I would encourage you to turn off your communication devices, whether it's a telephone or a BlackBerry. Your chair is setting the example early, because it's usually he who ends up having a phone call in the middle of everything. We would encourage you to do that.

We are continuing our study of the transfer of Afghan detainees. Appearing as our first witness today is Cory Anderson, the political director in 2008-09 for Canada's provincial reconstruction team in Afghanistan. He is from the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade.

We welcome you here today, Mr. Anderson. We look forward to your comments. I have spoken with you previously and I believe your opening comments will be under ten minutes, which will encourage extra questions. I'm sure you've seen these proceedings and how that will go through each party.

Mr. Anderson, welcome to the Special Committee on the Canadian Mission in Afghanistan. We look forward to your opening comments.

3:30 p.m.

Cory Anderson Political Director (2008-2009), Provincial Reconstruction Team, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'll endeavour to keep my comments brief, given the committee's extensive deliberations on this issue to date and to allow for sufficient time for questioning, as you just mentioned.

Members of the committee, my name is Cory Anderson and I am a DFAIT official who has been working on the issue of Canadian-transferred detainees since my arrival in Kandahar in October 2006 as a political adviser to Joint Task Force Afghanistan.

Over the past three years I have held various policy and management positions in Ottawa and in Kandahar. All are related to Canada's whole-of-government engagement in Afghanistan. I've recently completed an assignment as political director of the provincial reconstruction team in Kandahar City and served as a special adviser to the independent panel on Canada's future role in Afghanistan.

As of June 2009 I had spent 20 of the previous 36 months in Kandahar on assignment for the Government of Canada. I have visited the NDS facility and Sarposa prison on multiple occasions during that time.

I am proud to have served in Kandahar alongside the brave and professional men and women of the Canadian Forces, as well as numerous civilian officials. All of them put their lives on the line each and every day in the pursuit of the noble and just cause to bring peace, security, and stability to a land riddled with over 30 years of war and conflict.

Throughout my tenure, managing the difficult and often complicated issue of Canadian-transferred detainees in accordance with international humanitarian law and Canada's international obligations has been a pre-eminent area of concern. As you have already been made aware, beginning in 2007 and culminating with the supplemental arrangement in May of that year, a number of additional provisions were put in place that markedly improved our ability to track and monitor the welfare of Canadian-transferred detainees within the custody of the NDS and ministry of justice.

This was an important step forward, and not only for the well-being of those individuals in question. What distinguishes ISAF support for the current government from systemic abuse suffered under the Taliban and their adherents is not only the principles of rule of law, respect, and internationally recognized human rights, but just as significant is the notion that these values represent a progressive way forward from the fear and repression the overwhelming majority of the population has endured for more than a generation.

We cannot purport change on one hand and then knowingly turn a blind eye to abuse at the hands of Afghan officials on the other, because it undermines the very principles we have sent our men and women into harm's way to promote. It also erodes public confidence, further confusing and alienating a population that has been let down numerous times in the past. And it provides fodder for an insurgency well versed and experienced in the art of manipulation.

The supplemental arrangement and the detainee database established shortly thereafter were instrumental in improving our ability to track and monitor these individuals. Both had a tangible and immediate effect on the ground in Kandahar. David Mulroney, in particular, should be credited with providing the leadership necessary to implement these new provisions.

In my experience, the challenges we faced on the detainee file prior to the consummation of the supplemental arrangement were essentially a microcosm of two fundamental issues. The first is the endemic and systemic duplicity within the NDS, especially at the provincial level, which exists to this very day and renders it virtually impossible to have an open and transparent relationship with their officials on the ground in Kandahar on this issue. This was exacerbated by an initial transfer arrangement that was deficient, not only due to a lack of content, but also due to the fact that it was co-signed and endorsed by a Canadian general and the Afghan Minister of Defence, General Wardak. Both absolved their specific organizations of any direct responsibility for post-transfer follow-up or monitoring.

This means that prior to May 2007, this critical undertaking was left to the Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission, a fledgling organization that was essentially shut out by the Afghan security apparatus and the ICRC within the context of their broader monitoring of Afghan detention facilities in general. They, of course, do not report to us.

The Afghan Ministry of Defence has no authority over the NDS, and unlike Dutch and British forces operating in RC south, Canadian Forces made it clear from the outset that their oversight and responsibility for Canadian-captured detainees ceased upon transfer or release.

From my perspective, the time it took to draft and consummate the supplemental arrangement was not due to an unwillingness to improve upon the original transfer arrangement--far from it. We recognized its shortcomings almost from the moment I arrived in Kandahar. Nor was it the result of extensive negotiations with the Afghan government. Rather, it was a consequence of the fierce debate raging in Ottawa between military and civilian officials related to the exact nature of Canada's monitoring regime, given the very real concerns we as Canadian officials had regarding the willingness and intent of the NDS to legitimately abide by the stipulations of any new arrangement. This debate could not have occurred if senior Canadian officials were not fully aware of the plausible risk of abuse faced by Canadian transferred detainees at the hands of the NDS.

Almost from the outset, the supplemental arrangement resulted in what is essentially a two-tiered system, one where the Canadian Forces enjoy an intimate and comprehensive relationship with the NDS on a daily basis related to all aspects of military operations and intelligence gathering, but refuse to wade into the one facet of that relationship where adherence to our international obligations is most at risk, forcing civilian departments, namely DFAIT, to implement an extensive monitoring regime where the military's only role is that of providing transportation to and from the facility, along with the general security that that entails, thus giving the monumental task of monitoring within an inherently secretive institution such as the NDS to a handful of Canadian civilians who are viewed with suspicion and lack the comprehensive relationship with NDS officials that transcends detainee management and oversight.

As the committee has already heard, the creation of the associate deputy minister position at DFAIT responsible for coordinating the Afghan effort, then later moved to PCO upon the establishment of that Afghanistan task force following the Manley panel recommendations, was essential to mitigating many of the previous disconnects that were most evident on the ground in Kandahar in 2006-07, where the Canadian Forces were, and remain, the overwhelming face of our Afghan mission and individuals like myself were too few and often crowded out by the immensity of the task at hand.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Excuse me, Mr. Anderson--

3:35 p.m.

Bloc

Francine Lalonde Bloc La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC

Is it possible to slow down a bit for the interpreters?

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Could we just encourage you to slow down a little bit? The translators are having a difficult time keeping up.

You don't have to go back.

Thank you very much, Ms. Lalonde.

3:35 p.m.

Political Director (2008-2009), Provincial Reconstruction Team, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

Cory Anderson

As we increased the number of civilians and the seniority of our officials, this dichotomy began to change over time, but in my view, despite our best efforts to work collaboratively with the NDS in terms of offering human rights training and providing their facility with considerable infrastructure improvements, we have never fully nor adequately managed to address the inherent shortcomings of that institution as a viable partner working alongside our officials on a matter of this import.

Thank you for your attention.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you very much, Mr. Anderson.

We'll move to the first round. Mr. Dosanjh, you have seven minutes.

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

Ujjal Dosanjh Liberal Vancouver South, BC

Thank you, Mr. Anderson.

I have a couple of questions, and if there is time left, maybe my colleague can share that with me.

Mr. Anderson, during your 20 months there out of the 36, did you have occasion to brief any ministers or the CDS?

3:35 p.m.

Political Director (2008-2009), Provincial Reconstruction Team, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

Cory Anderson

I've had conversations with various ministers and senior military officials during their time in Kandahar when they would visit the PRT and CAF. We would brief them on a number of pertinent issues of the day related to all sorts of issues--rule of law, general operations. The detainee issue was generally one we would talk about, but it was not talked about, in my experience, at least, as a single, stand-alone item, but more broadly, as part of a larger discussion of the situation at the time they arrived.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Ujjal Dosanjh Liberal Vancouver South, BC

Would that be in terms of how we were managing the detainee abuse situation?

3:40 p.m.

Political Director (2008-2009), Provincial Reconstruction Team, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

Cory Anderson

I wouldn't characterize it as managing the abuse situation as much as managing the arrangement that we have in place with the NDS and with the officials at Sarposa Prison. There was a general consensus, obviously, that there were concerns, especially on the NDS side, with the people we were working with. So in the context of those discussions, we would raise certain issues related to detainees, which were one among a number usually.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Ujjal Dosanjh Liberal Vancouver South, BC

On the NDS side, was that concern about the detainees shared, for instance, by General Hillier, to your knowledge? I'm assuming you met him during various briefings--

3:40 p.m.

Political Director (2008-2009), Provincial Reconstruction Team, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Ujjal Dosanjh Liberal Vancouver South, BC

--and Minister MacKay. Was that concern shared by them, that they were concerned about abuse by the NDS?

3:40 p.m.

Political Director (2008-2009), Provincial Reconstruction Team, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

Cory Anderson

I would characterize it more as a concern over the process by which we had initiated our transfers and an inherent concern with the NDS in particular, that they were a viable partner for us to work with, given the commander's responsibility on the ground to make a decision to transfer or release.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Ujjal Dosanjh Liberal Vancouver South, BC

Were they a viable partner, in your opinion, when you were there?

3:40 p.m.

Political Director (2008-2009), Provincial Reconstruction Team, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

Cory Anderson

No, they were not.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Ujjal Dosanjh Liberal Vancouver South, BC

Are they a viable partner now, do you know?

3:40 p.m.

Political Director (2008-2009), Provincial Reconstruction Team, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

Cory Anderson

In my personal experience, you need to separate the Ministry of Justice and NDS into two distinct groups. At Sarposa Prison we've had an opportunity to work quite closely with their officials, especially following the prison break. We initiated a number of different programs alongside them. We have Correctional Services Canada officials who mentor them, who are on the ground, spending day after day with them, trying to bring them up to a standard. We don't enjoy that same type of relationship with the NDS whatsoever.

So the difficulty I had as a political director of the PRT was having even a supplemental arrangement and a transfer arrangement, on one hand, that led us to have no other partner, other than the NDS, for at least the initial transfer stage, but on the other hand, lacking a lot of confidence in their officials' ability to play a role that was up to the standard that we expect. There are examples of where we would be frustrated at the PRT in terms of our relationship with the NDS.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Ujjal Dosanjh Liberal Vancouver South, BC

Are you aware of any evidence of torture, at the NDS facilities, of the detainees who were being transferred?

3:40 p.m.

Political Director (2008-2009), Provincial Reconstruction Team, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

Cory Anderson

The only ones I'm specifically aware of are the ones the committee has already been made aware of. In my experience and during the interviews and the visits I took at the NDS, we never uncovered a specific allegation of abuse.

I think what has to be taken into the broader context is that we spend about 15 minutes with these people, and we ask them a series of questions according to a template that we developed. It's very thorough, and it's not that we haven't done the due diligence in order to ensure that these people aren't in harm's way. However, if they don't have visible markings or unless they come forward to us and state that they have been abused, we don't have any broader or more specific knowledge of actual cases.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Ujjal Dosanjh Liberal Vancouver South, BC

Whatever you knew about the NDS, you briefed at least General Hillier and Minister MacKay on various occasions.

3:40 p.m.

Political Director (2008-2009), Provincial Reconstruction Team, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

Cory Anderson

I would brief people--not just ministers or senior military officials--who came to the PRT if they asked questions about the NDS, or I would often do so proactively. We had a variety of people who would come through Kandahar almost on a weekly basis: senior Canadian officials, ISAF, American... We would brief them on concerns we had with regard to our partnership with the NDS.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Ujjal Dosanjh Liberal Vancouver South, BC

Do you recall briefing Minister MacKay?

3:40 p.m.

Political Director (2008-2009), Provincial Reconstruction Team, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

Cory Anderson

I recall having conversations with Minister MacKay.