Afghanistan Committee on April 28th, 2010

[Gavin Buchan]

Yes, I read the article. I believe almost every witness who will appear before the committee has read these articles. Moreover I talked to the author of the articles at that time. Within 48 hours of these reports, I was in the basement of the NDS talking with detainees in order to ascertain what had happened. This was not an inquiry. We did not have the means or the expertise to conduct an inquiry. The government reacted almost instantly, which is understandable. We reacted not only in Kandahar but also in Kabul where representations were made at the highest levels. As a Canadian bureaucrat, I think I can be proud of the fact that as soon as we had knowledge of these allegations, we reacted so swiftly and so effectively. Changes were made to the system following that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Mr. Buchan.

Go ahead, General Grant.

[MGen Timothy Grant]

I will simply add that this was the first time that a credible allegation was brought forward. We took it very seriously. In spite of some of the significant factual errors in that report, we took this very seriously.

As Mr. Buchan has said, he went to the prison. I, with Mr. Buchan, had a face-to-face meeting with the head of the NDS in Kandahar. We followed that up shortly thereafter with meetings both with the head of the NDS and with the head of the Afghan Independent Human Rights Commission. We moved quickly when presented with a credible allegation.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, General.

We'll now move to the government and Mr. Obhrai.

[Deepak Obhrai, Conservative, Calgary East, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Gavin Buchan and General Grant, for coming before the committee to give your perspective.

Mr. Buchan, when you took over from Mr. Colvin, you would have received briefing notes or handover notes from him. Did any of these documents allege that the Canadian-transferred prisoners were being abused in prisons in Kandahar?

[Gavin Buchan]

In the handover note that I received on my arrival in Kandahar in July 2006, there was no reference to the detainee issue whatsoever.

[Deepak Obhrai, Conservative, Calgary East, AB]

There was none whatsoever.

[Gavin Buchan]

There was a list of items on which I needed to follow up. There was one missing persons case, which had nothing to do with Canadian detention policy, but there was no reference whatsoever to detainees as an issue on which I should follow up during my tenure in Kandahar.

[Deepak Obhrai, Conservative, Calgary East, AB]

General Grant, you heard in earlier testimony that toward 2006 and early 2007, warnings were repeatedly given about torture and mistreatment of prisoners. You went Afghanistan in November 2006. You said you received one from the Globe and Mail article, but can you tell this committee whether you were warned by Richard Colvin or any other Canadian official of any credible allegation of mistreatment or torture of Canadian-transferred prisoners in Afghan prisons?

[MGen Timothy Grant]

No, I was not at any time, from the time I arrived until the Globe and Mail article, advised by anyone that there were serious issues and that I should either stop or consider stopping transfers of detainees, not from Mr. Colvin and not from anyone else.

I will tell you, I am puzzled by Mr. Colvin's comments.

[Deepak Obhrai, Conservative, Calgary East, AB]

Thank you.

General Grant, were you aware, before deploying to Afghanistan and during your time there, of your important obligations under international law concerning Canadian-transferred prisoners? Did you think you discharged these responsibilities to the best of your ability?

[MGen Timothy Grant]

I first became involved in Afghanistan on September 11, 2001, when we started planning at that point for a Canadian contribution to Afghanistan, or in the hours very shortly thereafter. In addition, I helped to train four rotations that went into theatre, including the first PRT. In every one of those training scenarios and planning scenarios, the treatment of detainees figured highly.

I believe I was well aware of the international obligations. I was well aware of what I needed to do, and more importantly, I believe I took the steps to make sure I was knowledgeable and capable of making decisions.

[Deepak Obhrai, Conservative, Calgary East, AB]

Mr. Buchan, would you clarify, when you were alerted for the first time of credible allegations of mistreatment or torture of Canadian-transferred prisoners in Kandahar prisons, what actions were taken?

[Gavin Buchan]

This is the April period to which we've already referred in response to other questions. There was a comprehensive series of actions taken.

At the local level, we followed up with the visit to the facility, to which I've referred. We met with Afghan officials in Kandahar, the head of the NDS, as General Grant mentioned, and the governor, in addition. We informed the Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission; we made sure that they had the details of allegations. Actually I had to sit the NDS and the AIHRC down together in the same room to resolve a dispute that they had been having over access.

At the Kabul level, there were equally strong responses. You had démarches being presented at the very highest levels within the NDS and the Afghan government, expressing Canada's position very clearly and insisting on answers and progress. And as you saw, a mere ten days after the allegations were presented, you had a new supplementary arrangement in place that gave us powers that were very robust, as I have described in my statements.

[Deepak Obhrai, Conservative, Calgary East, AB]

Very good. Thank you.

Do I have time on the clock?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Yes, you have seven minutes.

[Deepak Obhrai, Conservative, Calgary East, AB]

General Grant, do you recall when you were first alerted to specific concerns about the mistreatment of Canadian-transferred prisoners in prisons in Kandahar? Could you tell us what actions you took?

[MGen Timothy Grant]

Very similar to Mr. Buchan, the first thing we did was to try to confirm the veracity of the allegations in Graeme Smith's article. We did move quickly to make sure that we spoke to those individuals in Afghan positions of authority to ensure we understood what was happening and we could take steps to ensure the safety of Canadian transferred-detainees, if they were at risk, and we did engage with both Ambassador Lalani and with senior bureaucrats back in Ottawa as we moved forward with the development of the supplementary arrangement. Once the supplementary arrangement was in place, we then took steps to make sure that we could properly implement that arrangement at all levels and by all members of the whole-of-government team in Kandahar.

[Deepak Obhrai, Conservative, Calgary East, AB]

Mr. Buchan, in your testimony you stated at one point that when you went out to visit these prisons and everything, there was a risk to your life. There was a risk because you were travelling on roads that were constantly under attack.

Would you tell this committee what it was like, and if you felt your life was threatened at any of the times when you were making these visits?

[Gavin Buchan]

Any time we moved anywhere in Kandahar City or Kandahar province, we needed a multiple-vehicle package with a security detail. You had to have patrol routes and pre-briefs. You had to alter the route by which you went because there was a constant awareness that you were a potential target for a suicide bombing. It was particularly personal in my case because I had replaced Glyn Berry after he was killed in a suicide bombing.

Every time you left the wire, you were at risk. We were at particular risk in going to the two detention facilities because we knew these facilities were of interest to the insurgents and that they had been attacked by them on occasions in the past. As well, when you become predictable in your movements, you face the highest level of risk, because it's possible for the enemy to plan an attack effectively.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Mr. Buchan.

We'll move to Mr. Harris, please. Mr. Harris, you have seven minutes.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you Chair, and thank you, gentlemen, for joining us today.

Mr. Buchan, I recognize that when you went to Afghanistan, you were following in the place of Glyn Berry, who had lost his life doing the job that you took shortly afterward. We appreciate your dedication and your willingness to do that as part of your job on behalf of Canada.

I do have to ask, though, about a picture that seems to be becoming clear to me, at least. You say that prior to April 2007 your engagement focused on capacity-building, but that you had no mandate to engage in monitoring. Is it fair to say that there was actually no one from DFAIT in Afghanistan who had a role in conducting monitoring prior to April 2007?

[Gavin Buchan]

That's correct.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

In your previous incarnation in 2005, when you were working on planning, it was actually decided by the government--and I assume this was made in Ottawa by political officials--that we would rely on Afghan assurances that they wouldn't torture people who were passed over to them. That was the premise of that first agreement, was it not?

[Gavin Buchan]

There were actually three sets of safeguards built into the 2005 agreement. The first was the assurance of the Government of Afghanistan, to which your refer. The second was the specified role for the International Committee of the Red Cross. The third was the assurance of access for the Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission. From a perspective of principle, it looked as though we had three lines of defence in this regard.