Afghanistan Committee on April 28th, 2010

[MGen Timothy Grant]

I would say those comments are nonsense, quite frankly. As I said, I met with the local representative from the Red Cross early in my tour, and I met with him often. He had free access to the base, which he exercised on a regular basis, and he visited the detainee facility.

The only issue that ever came to my attention about information flow was in fact about information that did not get to ISAF headquarters. And while people initially blamed the Canadians, in fact it was an allied officer in the Regional Command South headquarters, the provost marshal at that point, who was not a Canadian, who had failed to do his job. So from my standpoint, we met with the ICRC, and they had no complaints about the way we provided them information.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, General Grant.

Mr. Dosanjh, please go ahead for five minutes.

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Thank you, General, and thank you, Mr. Buchan.

I have a couple of questions. The first one is for the general.

General, when he appeared before the committee Mr. Malgarai indicated that an allegation had been made that a young unarmed man had been shot during your watch. Were you present in the battlefield at that time, or were you not present?

[MGen Timothy Grant]

No, I was not present.

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

I understand there's a news story that the family, particularly the two brothers of the man who was allegedly shot, have asked for a probe, and General Natynczyk has indicated that a probe is under way, whether it just started now or had been ongoing. Can you shed any personal light on this from what you may have learned from your involvement as the lead?

[MGen Timothy Grant]

I'm afraid I probably can't shed any light on it. I have not had access to those documents. I read General Natynczyk's letter back to this committee, I believe, but other than that I can't remember over three years ago.

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Thank you.

Mr. Buchan, when Ambassador Lalani appeared here, if I'm correct he actually did acknowledge that there was a substantial risk of torture in Afghan jails, particularly with the NDS. Our detainees were no exception. From all of the evidence--you may disbelieve some, believe others--from international reports, from our own people who know the situation in Afghanistan, there is mounting evidence, mounting allegations, that this risk was real.

Can you tell the committee--and you know the international law--whether you were satisfied that we as a country met the international test, particularly given that when you have to investigate these allegations we turn to the torturer? If the NDS is accused of torturing, we actually go to the NDS and say please investigate these allegations. Can you tell me whether you're satisfied that we met the test?

[Gavin Buchan]

If I can ask for clarification, when you say ”met the test”, are you referring to 2005, 2007, the present day?

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Whether we met the test during your period.

[Gavin Buchan]

I'm confident that Canada has consistently met the test of its international obligations throughout our period in theatre. Does that mean that no Canadian-transferred detainees have faced abuse? I think with the benefit of hindsight we can say that in the period 2006 to April 2007 we did not have a perfect system. What has to be borne in mind is that as soon as we found this out we took strenuous efforts to fix it, to address the situation.

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

How would you come to that conclusion, if Ambassador Lalani is correct that our detainees faced a substantial risk of torture and continued to do so? How do you say that we met the test? Can you explain?

[Gavin Buchan]

Because measures were put in place to mitigate that risk.

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

After torture had happened.

[Gavin Buchan]

No. Measures were taken and put in place to mitigate the likelihood of it taking place. If you look at the 2005 arrangement, you have the assurances from the Government of Afghanistan, AIHRC monitoring, and ICRC notification. Those were the three steps. When we discovered that those were not working sufficiently, additional mitigation measures were put in place.

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Okay.

Can I take you back to...? I believe there was a meeting at Kandahar airfield with ICRC and Canadian officials. Were any of you present at that meeting?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Could you be a little more specific as to time?

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

It would be in 2007.

[MGen Timothy Grant]

I met with the ICRC several times in 2007.

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

At the Kandahar airfield?

[MGen Timothy Grant]

Yes. The representative would come to visit me and visit the detainee centre on a regular basis.

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Right. Can you then tell us--if there is anything you can tell us--what they were talking to you about? What were their concerns?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Mr. Dosanjh.

Very quickly.

[MGen Timothy Grant]

I will tread lightly here, but the fact is that what I was provided by the ICRC representative gave me a level of comfort that the Canadian-transferred detainees were not being tortured and not subject to abuse. While that information may not have been transposed from Geneva ICRC to Ottawa, the level of information I was getting from the folks on the ground was much more significant.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, General.

We'll move to Mr. Dechert, please.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Gentlemen, thank you for your appearance here this afternoon.

Mr. Buchan, do I have it right that Mr. Colvin was in Kandahar in May and June of 2006? Was that the only time he was in Kandahar?