Afghanistan Committee on May 5th, 2010

[Michel Coulombe]

As you know, Mr. Chair, normally, the service neither confirms nor denies the existence of agreements with foreign agencies. However, we have publicly acknowledged that we are in Afghanistan. The service has decided to say that it has come to an agreement with the NDS. This is the Afghan government partner with which we work.

[Bob Rae, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

I understand completely that you are in a difficult position. I was a member of the Security Intelligence Review Committee. So I am well aware of the service's concerns. However, I believe that is important for us to know certain things, such as whether you were aware that the NDS was going to interrogate individuals that you were transferring to them.

[Michel Coulombe]

First, Mr. Chair, as I mentioned in my opening remarks, the service does not transfer detainees.

[Bob Rae, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

I understand that, but, when you interrogate someone and then transfer them as result of an order from the commanding officer, do you then receive information from the NDS about the person that you have transferred?

[Michel Coulombe]

No, Mr. Chair. Once the individual is transferred to the NDS, that individual is subject to a legal process. The service received no specific information about the people that had been transferred.

[Bob Rae, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

No example comes to mind? You said you had agreements with the NDS. So you share information, such as if you are made aware of threats. You have examples. Given the circumstances, you are trying to protect the interests of our troops and the civil forces in Afghanistan.

Is it possible that you might get information from the NDS that came from a person transferred to them as a result of a Canadian decision?

[Michel Coulombe]

Yes, it is possible.

[Bob Rae, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

In that case, would you have any idea at all about the techniques, tactics or means used by the NDS to get information from a person?

[Michel Coulombe]

Actually, we would have no idea of the techniques or methods used in the detention centre to get information.

[Bob Rae, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

Were you aware of everything there is in writing? You heard what the representative of Human Rights Watch said in her testimony earlier. Were you aware of the existence of all the reports? A large number of reports, including those by the state department in the United States and by the UN, mentioned that torture was occurring in the NDS and the Afghan prison system.

[Michel Coulombe]

Yes, Mr. Chair, the service was aware. We monitor the reports, including those from Amnesty International, governmental and non-governmental organizations, among others.

[Bob Rae, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

Is it possible that you received information obtained as a result of mistreatment inflicted by the Afghan national security forces?

[Michel Coulombe]

It is possible. The service always notes things like that.

[Bob Rae, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

What do you do with the information, given the possibility?

[Michel Coulombe]

Mr. Chair, the service implements procedures that begin with the departmental directive. It is very clear: the service must not rely on intelligence obtained by torture. We also have internal policies governing the procedures to follow when the service has doubts about the way in which information has been obtained.

[Bob Rae, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

Did the service have the opportunity for frank discussions with your Afghan partner about all these reports about torture and about the fact that questions could be asked? How is it possible that it could go on in a service that is a partner of the NDS?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Mr. Rae.

[Bob Rae, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

Did you have discussions with the NDS on this specific matter?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Very quickly.

[Michel Coulombe]

Yes. You have to understand that the NDS has several sections. One of them, that might be called a correctional service, enforces the law, has the power of arrest and includes an intelligence service. We deal solely with the intelligence service. But, yes, we do have discussions with the NDS on the matter.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you.

Mr. Bachand.

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Welcome, Mr. Coulombe.

Could you tell me if you have been to Afghanistan?

[Michel Coulombe]

Mr. Chair, I went to Afghanistan in September 2009.

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Did I hear you correctly earlier when you send that CSIS began interrogating people in 2002 and stopped doing so in 2007?

[Michel Coulombe]

That is correct.