Evidence of meeting #8 for Special Committee on the Canadian Mission in Afghanistan in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was nds.
A recording is available from Parliament.
May 5th, 2010 / 5:10 p.m.
Conservative
Deepak Obhrai Conservative Calgary East, AB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I want to thank you very much for coming.
Your position over here is very difficult. I'll be very blunt about it. We're talking about detainee questions here. The Department of Foreign Affairs, the Canadian Forces, and the whole-of-government approach has been to work on improving the systems and everything.
We just heard testimony from a previous witness. Of course, we had a lot of questions about their testimony as well--somebody's opinion. But to bring a CSIS intelligence individual here and try to get something out of you, which the other government of Canada....
I want to join with my colleagues, all of us on this side, and say what a tremendous job you are doing, and highlight the fact that you do operate under supervision. You are not someone who has a free hand. You have rules and procedures, including the overview of this thing.
I have a very simple question here--
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
5:10 p.m.
Liberal
Ujjal Dosanjh Liberal Vancouver South, BC
Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Coulombe. You obviously are in a very difficult situation when you say it's possible that you receive some evidence that may be tainted, or received or adduced as a result of torture. And you say there's a caveat, and you have processes and procedures to deal with it, and that caveat means that the information is never to be used.
Let me put a hypothetical situation to you. If you have information that may assist you in dismantling an IED or disrupting other dangerous activity for our forces, though that information may be adduced as a result of torture, how do you deal with that dilemma on the ground?
5:10 p.m.
Assistant Director, Foreign Collection, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
A very difficult question, Mr. Chair.
Again, everything we do is....
We still work from the ministerial directives as our premise. One of the directives stipulates that we cannot rely on information obtained through torture. I have to tell you that I am very reluctant to answer any hypothetical questions because there are any number of possible scenarios. In situations such as that, we would try to obtain further information and not base our actions solely on information that was obtained through torture. However, we have a responsibility to act if we believe that not doing anything could result in the loss of life, whether the lives of Canadian military personnel, civilians or even military personnel from other NATO countries in Afghanistan. But we would never act based solely on information we believed to be the result of torture.
5:15 p.m.
Liberal
Ujjal Dosanjh Liberal Vancouver South, BC
But if you try to seek similar evidence from sources not tainted by torture and you're unable to get that because you're in a battlefield in a country torn asunder by war, but you have this nagging feeling that something may happen to our forces, you indicate that if you try, but if you can't find it, you do act on that original information if you think the lives of our troops are at risk. Do I understand you correctly?
5:15 p.m.
Assistant Director, Foreign Collection, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
No, I said the basic principle was to respect the ministerial directive that states that we cannot rely on information obtained through torture. Again, I do not want to discuss hypothetical situations.
5:15 p.m.
Liberal
Ujjal Dosanjh Liberal Vancouver South, BC
But these are real scenarios that probably happen every day on the ground, sir. I don't want to put words in your mouth. I've not been to the battlefield myself. I was in Kandahar and limited to the base itself. It's a very dangerous situation.
What do you do if you can't find corroborated evidence independently of the tarnished evidence? What do you do? Do you do nothing?
5:15 p.m.
Assistant Director, Foreign Collection, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
Mr. Chair, I think the average Canadian would not accept that its intelligence service do nothing and let Canadian military or civilians be killed because we did nothing.
5:15 p.m.
Liberal
Ujjal Dosanjh Liberal Vancouver South, BC
Thank you.
It is a very difficult situation.
Do you have any questions?
5:15 p.m.
Liberal
Bob Rae Liberal Toronto Centre, ON
Because Mr. Abbott has raised my name in vain, I was tempted to quote my friend, Mr. Obhrai, and say these are very serious charges, but I won't do that.
5:15 p.m.
Voices
oh! oh!
5:15 p.m.
Liberal
Bob Rae Liberal Toronto Centre, ON
I just want to be clear about the role of SIRC, Mr. Coulombe. Typically, SIRC hears and responds to complaints with respect to the conduct of the service, with respect to an individual case that comes before it. I wasn't even going to bother, because I can't ask you whether there were any cases that SIRC reviewed with respect to the issues in Afghanistan, but I'm going to ask you that anyway and see what you say.
I can just tell Mr. Abbott that I'm not in a position to answer that question either. I just want to see whether Mr. Coulombe answers it.
5:15 p.m.
Assistant Director, Foreign Collection, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
Thank you, Mr. Rae.
Mr. Chair, first of all, I don't want to get into a debate. I'm not an expert on the review, and having Mr. Rae here, I don't want to get into an argument on it. But he's right.
SIRC investigates complaints, but if I am not mistaken, pursuant to section 54, SIRC can also decide to investigate any matter and submit a report to the government, on its own initiative or at the minister's request.
5:15 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson
Thank you very much.
We'll go back to the government side.
Mr. Obhrai, welcome back.
5:15 p.m.
Conservative
Deepak Obhrai Conservative Calgary East, AB
Thank you.
Let's go back to the question that I was bringing over here—the whole Government of Canada approach. You are not in Afghanistan by yourself. Foreign Affairs is there. Canadian soldiers are there. CIDA is there. Everybody is there. Collaboratively, you're all working together toward meeting your mandate.
In this whole collaboration that you're doing over there, naturally we all work together to ensure, as you stated, that Canadian Forces and the Canadian people all work for the international law, international rules, and whatever is prescribed down here. Nobody--and I want to make this very clear--has accused any of the Canadians or anybody else of not working within the laws that they have been mandated for. Witnesses have come and stated that very clearly, all of those who are on the ground, including yourself. That must be made very clear to all Canadians.
Having worked with all the individuals together collaboratively and everything, your opinion on.... And we are going to go on with this detainee issue because that is the issue this side over here is seized with, or obsessed with, as my colleague says, and not other issues. But within your context, and I know it's tough--I don't know if it's national security or not--you have felt that all of the Government of Canada's approaches, including soldiers and everybody else, including you doing your part of your work in talking to detainees, in working with NDS and everything.... I want your impression. In your opinion, have we done an excellent job and maintained our international obligations and laws? Did you feel at any given time that there was deficiency in the Canadian approach?
5:20 p.m.
Assistant Director, Foreign Collection, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
If you're asking for my opinion--
5:20 p.m.
Assistant Director, Foreign Collection, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
Based on my interaction, and having been there, yes, everybody is doing what they have to do according to international laws and everybody is doing the outmost to fulfill their respective mandates.
5:20 p.m.
Conservative
Deepak Obhrai Conservative Calgary East, AB
Good. It's good that it's on the record, including yours.
Frankly speaking, and I want to say this because my colleagues are all obsessed with this whole idea.... I don't have any other questions to ask you, but I want to thank you very much for doing a wonderful job.
5:20 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson
Thank you, Mr. Obhrai.
We'll go back to Mr. Hawn. You have about two minutes.
5:20 p.m.
Conservative
Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Does CSIS work with the NDS or other agencies over there in a training role at all, to raise their capacity at all, or is that just beyond the scope right now?