Evidence of meeting #9 for Special Committee on the Canadian Mission in Afghanistan in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was agreement.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:30 p.m.
Former Minister of National Defence (2004-2006) and Former Minister of Foreign Affairs (2002-2004), As an Individual
Yes.
4:30 p.m.
Bloc
Claude Bachand Bloc Saint-Jean, QC
But you considered the idea of take and keep at some point. Why did you discard that option?
4:30 p.m.
Former Minister of National Defence (2004-2006) and Former Minister of Foreign Affairs (2002-2004), As an Individual
For reasons of capacity. We did not have the capacity to do that and engage in combat at the same time.
4:30 p.m.
Bloc
Claude Bachand Bloc Saint-Jean, QC
Okay. Regarding the transfer of detainees to the American authorities, didn't you say, during debates that took place before the two scandals I mentioned occurred, that you were sure the Americans would treat detainees humanely?
4:30 p.m.
Former Minister of National Defence (2004-2006) and Former Minister of Foreign Affairs (2002-2004), As an Individual
No, I believe, as the member mentioned... Obviously, the Americans have a spotless record in most cases. The problem was that they were determined to transfer prisoners where they wanted, to Guantanamo and elsewhere. We did not feel at the time that this was an appropriate solution for the Canadian government. I believe that most of the members of the House felt that way as well.
4:30 p.m.
Former Minister of National Defence (2004-2006) and Former Minister of Foreign Affairs (2002-2004), As an Individual
No, I do not know her.
4:30 p.m.
Bloc
Claude Bachand Bloc Saint-Jean, QC
She is a woman with a great deal of experience who was in Afghanistan for the Department of Foreign Affairs from 2002 to 2006, I think. She revealed that in 2005, she had raised the possibility that detainees transferred to the Afghans were being tortured. She claims that the Martin government ignored her concerns. Do you remember reading that report?
4:30 p.m.
Former Minister of National Defence (2004-2006) and Former Minister of Foreign Affairs (2002-2004), As an Individual
I read a newspaper account of what she had said on television.
4:30 p.m.
Former Minister of National Defence (2004-2006) and Former Minister of Foreign Affairs (2002-2004), As an Individual
No, certainly not. Mr. Bachand, we are talking about the Department of Foreign Affairs. If this women had written a report, she would have submitted it to the authorities in that department.
4:30 p.m.
Bloc
Claude Bachand Bloc Saint-Jean, QC
She would have submitted it to Foreign Affairs, but you were at National Defence.
4:30 p.m.
Former Minister of National Defence (2004-2006) and Former Minister of Foreign Affairs (2002-2004), As an Individual
That's right.
4:30 p.m.
Bloc
Claude Bachand Bloc Saint-Jean, QC
And there was no discussion between National Defence and Foreign Affairs?
May 12th, 2010 / 4:30 p.m.
Former Minister of National Defence (2004-2006) and Former Minister of Foreign Affairs (2002-2004), As an Individual
All I can tell you is that the authorities in the Department of Foreign Affairs and the Department of National Defence agreed on the terms of this agreement and that the Government of Canada supported the signing of the agreement.The authorities in Ms. Olexiuk's department therefore decided, based on their knowledge of the situation, that they would sign the agreement. That is all I can tell you. I cannot know what was going through their minds.
4:30 p.m.
Bloc
Claude Bachand Bloc Saint-Jean, QC
I am going to talk to you about someone you know well, Eugene Lang. Here is what he said:
We were aware that...there was going to be risks of potential abuse in Afghan prisons and at the hands of the Afghan security forces, which is why we tried to negotiate an agreement.
I have a question about what Mr. Lang wrote. While you were minister, did you ever wonder whether there was torture in Afghanistan? Did you reach the conclusion that there was torture in Afghanistan or that there were risks of torture in Afghanistan? Did you reach that conclusion while you were minister?
4:35 p.m.
Former Minister of National Defence (2004-2006) and Former Minister of Foreign Affairs (2002-2004), As an Individual
We knew there were risks. That is why we put the provisions in the agreement we signed. If there had not been risks, we would not have put anything in the agreement.
4:35 p.m.
Bloc
Claude Bachand Bloc Saint-Jean, QC
Mr. Graham, the Geneva convention states that you cannot transfer detainees if there are risks of torture. The Liberal and Conservative governments keep telling us that when they found out what was happening, they made changes. But as soon as there are risks of torture, you cannot transfer detainees.
Why did you keep on transferring them if you yourself felt there were risks of torture?
4:35 p.m.
Former Minister of National Defence (2004-2006) and Former Minister of Foreign Affairs (2002-2004), As an Individual
There were no transfers when I was there.
4:35 p.m.
Former Minister of National Defence (2004-2006) and Former Minister of Foreign Affairs (2002-2004), As an Individual
The agreement was signed on December 15. I had my hands full with the election on January 16.
4:35 p.m.
Bloc
4:35 p.m.
Former Minister of National Defence (2004-2006) and Former Minister of Foreign Affairs (2002-2004), As an Individual
The only prisoner was me, in Rosedale, Toronto Centre.
4:35 p.m.
Bloc
Claude Bachand Bloc Saint-Jean, QC
Yes, but you were there as minister before the agreement was signed in 2005.
4:35 p.m.
Former Minister of National Defence (2004-2006) and Former Minister of Foreign Affairs (2002-2004), As an Individual
Yes.