Evidence of meeting #10 for Agriculture and Agri-Food in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was product.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Karen Dodds  Executive Director, Pest Management Regulatory Agency, Department of Health
Richard Aucoin  Chief Registrar and Director General, Registration Directorate, Pest Management Regulatory Agency, Department of Health
Peter Delorme  Acting Director General, Environmental Assessment Directorate, Health Canada

10:10 a.m.

Chief Registrar and Director General, Registration Directorate, Pest Management Regulatory Agency, Department of Health

Dr. Richard Aucoin

No, I don't have a specific timeframe. It depends on the nature of the product that is in submission and when we'll be able to make a review decision on it. I expect that, through 2008, at least a couple more of those will be completed, but I wouldn't want to give you a....

10:10 a.m.

Conservative

Larry Miller Conservative Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON

No, and I'm not going to hold you to it, but do you think there could be a couple this year?

10:10 a.m.

Chief Registrar and Director General, Registration Directorate, Pest Management Regulatory Agency, Department of Health

10:10 a.m.

Conservative

Larry Miller Conservative Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON

I guess your funding, and what have you, comes from various sources, and I presume Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada funds PMRA. What is the budget that comes out of Agriculture Canada for PRMA in a given year?

10:10 a.m.

Executive Director, Pest Management Regulatory Agency, Department of Health

Karen Dodds

There are no dollars, to my knowledge, that flow to the Department of Agriculture and then to PMRA.

What has happened has been that when Agriculture Canada has gone to the government for a new initiative, at times funds to PMRA have been part of that initiative. Recognizing that the work we do is important to the agriculture sector in Canada, we've been partners to initiatives brought forward by Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada, as have some other departments. Environment Canada and the Department of Fisheries and Oceans have also gotten some money to do research and monitoring.

10:15 a.m.

Conservative

Larry Miller Conservative Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON

So you're telling me that all you get, basically, from Agriculture Canada is direction. You don't get any funding?

10:15 a.m.

Executive Director, Pest Management Regulatory Agency, Department of Health

Karen Dodds

No, no. Being partnered with them in these initiatives is very important to us. The dollars that I mentioned in the increasing competitiveness to the agriculture sector in Canada are very important to help us do work on things that are of benefit to the agriculture sector.

I guess it's a mechanical thing. The dollars don't flow to that department first, but we're certainly getting them because of an initiative that Agriculture Canada and the Minister of Agriculture have led.

10:15 a.m.

Conservative

Larry Miller Conservative Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON

Okay. I misunderstood.

I presume you have your budget in place in 2008. Do you have any idea of the kinds of dollars that are coming out of Agriculture Canada in 2008? Can you compare them to 2007?

10:15 a.m.

Executive Director, Pest Management Regulatory Agency, Department of Health

Karen Dodds

I don't know if I have a one-pager here. We can give you that kind of breakdown.

On the agriculture policy framework, some of the dollars we were receiving under that were supposed to sunset at the end of this fiscal year, so we weren't going to receive them next year. They're being rolled over. I believe there's a question about how much we're getting there. That's more than offset, I do know, by dollars we're getting from the competitiveness of the Canadian agriculture sector. And those are both Agriculture Canada initiatives. So I know we're receiving more money as a gross level, but one envelope is going down while the other envelope is going up.

10:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

I will just follow up on Larry's comments. I'm looking at your annual report, and actually you don't have any financial statements in here. I know you're an agency, but you're still part of Health Canada, and I know the health committee reviews your budget rather than us in agriculture. Is there any reason you wouldn't have published those, especially since you do have some other sources of funding rather than just money coming from Health Canada? You also have some dollars coming from Agriculture Canada and also you have all your registration fees that come in to you.

10:15 a.m.

Executive Director, Pest Management Regulatory Agency, Department of Health

Karen Dodds

Yes, we're an agency only in name. We have no special authorities. We're just a branch of Health Canada. I report to the deputy, as do assistant deputy ministers. We have no special authorities. We've actually raised the question, for example, to our advisory council about changing our name to a branch so it's very clear to people that we aren't a real agency such as the Canadian Food Inspection Agency or Parks Canada.

10:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

Thank you.

Monsieur Bellavance.

10:15 a.m.

Bloc

André Bellavance Bloc Richmond—Arthabaska, QC

Still on the budget, in your status report, you say that your funding from Agriculture and Agri-Food was about $19 million over four years, principally for addressing the technology gap and improving harmonization.

Is this budget of $19.3 million over four years enough to reach the objectives you have set for yourselves in these two areas? Is it part of a longer-term plan that will need continued funding in order to keep the work going? I imagine that the work will not be finished in four years, because new products for you to register are always being put on the market.

10:20 a.m.

Executive Director, Pest Management Regulatory Agency, Department of Health

Karen Dodds

Whenever a government department or part of a department receives new dollars, we've always had to put in an argument of this is why we need the new dollars and this is what they're going to be used for, and then it is the government that decides the financial amount that we get. So the question of whether this amount is appropriate or not in my mind is actually one you pose to government, not to public servants, because we're not the ones who dictate in the end what budget we get. We're the ones who put forward the argument for getting so much money. As I said, when you're in the area of safety and environmental issues, all of us could argue for more resources. It will be our trend analysis. As I said, cost recovery is under review. We'll be looking at how many submissions we get. We report extensively to this committee in our annual reports to Parliament about those things and it's very much up to the stakeholder to say whether our performance is satisfactory.

10:20 a.m.

Bloc

André Bellavance Bloc Richmond—Arthabaska, QC

Can you break down the $19.3 million over four years? To what degree will the money be allocated to improve harmonization and invested to address the technology gap? Can you tell us how you plan to use this money over the next four years? At the end of the day, what do you think we will get out of it?

10:20 a.m.

Executive Director, Pest Management Regulatory Agency, Department of Health

Karen Dodds

We can. I don't have the specific information here, but we can give you figures, year-by-year, indicating the amount that's going to this activity.

10:20 a.m.

Bloc

André Bellavance Bloc Richmond—Arthabaska, QC

I would like to have that.

If you cannot tell us if it is enough money, can you at least tell us if further amounts will be needed as they always have been? With that amount of money, the work will not be completely finished in four years. New products are always coming onto the market. Money will always be needed in order to register those products.

10:20 a.m.

Executive Director, Pest Management Regulatory Agency, Department of Health

Karen Dodds

This is why we do always look at numbers in trend analysis, because, as I said, we have a ceiling set, for example, for cost recovery. Part of that was based on trend analysis done quite some time ago, and we learned that our number of submissions in the last two years has increased. It hadn't been a prediction. The year-over-year prediction was at a certain level, and we've exceeded that. So our circumstances have changed and our trend number is now at an increase, beyond which we had projected actually within the beginning of the fiscal year for last fiscal year.

So all of the environmental factors--here I'm talking about business, environmental, etc.--have an impact on things like how many submissions we receive and in what category.

10:20 a.m.

Bloc

André Bellavance Bloc Richmond—Arthabaska, QC

I remember when you appeared in 2006, Mr. Ritz, the chair of the committee and the present minister of agriculture and agri-food, mentioned to you that each product requiring study could cost from $1.5 to $2 million. You expressed doubt about that amount, but you did not say how much it could cost to study each of these products.

Can you tell us how much it may have cost to study one of these products since 2006? Can the figure change from one case to another? Have costs decreased since we have been doing more and more studies in collaboration with the United States? Has the cost to study products to be registered gone down?

10:20 a.m.

Executive Director, Pest Management Regulatory Agency, Department of Health

Karen Dodds

All of that is the kind of information we'll need to bring forward when we propose—if we propose—changes to our cost recovery regime. There are different costs to different parties, and we have to look at that. I think Mr. Easter raised this too, in terms of the impact on the growers themselves of our cost recovery regime.

Costs for registrants have in some respects gone down, because as I said, they can now submit exactly the same data package to Canada and the United States. We've heard from them that because they can submit it to us electronically, that saves them potentially a couple of hundred of thousands of dollars.

Some of our costs have changed because of things like joint reviews, but they haven't really gone up or down. For example, the pre-submission considerations that go into a joint review are now very complex. You're working with four, five, six different countries and discussing who is going to do what part of the review. For example, Richard and people are travelling, often to Paris, where other countries and registrants are, and they're spending a whole day simply discussing a submission and which country will review what part of the submission.

We haven't had enough experience at the global level yet to really be able to say what the cost of doing that kind of work is versus the cost of doing a distinct Canadian review. We have started doing some of the international comparisons and have had discussions with, for example, the U.S.—I don't know whether we've now had them also with the U.K.—to discuss what their practice is and what their costs are for their parts of the system so that we can also compare the costs in Canada to the costs in the United States and the costs in Europe. I think Australia is also one of the countries we'll be looking to compare costs with.

All of that is the kind of material we'll need to bring forward if and when we talk about changes to the cost recovery regime.

10:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

I just have a few questions of my own before I turn it over to Mr. Atamanenko again.

We talked earlier about the strychnine registration currently in Saskatchewan for rodent control, and that's now being applied for by Alberta. Alberta also has registration for the use of cyanide, I believe, through PMRA. I'm not 100% sure what it's being used for, but I think it's predator control. Is that true? It has come up a number of times that Alberta has access to cyanide through PMRA registration.

10:25 a.m.

Chief Registrar and Director General, Registration Directorate, Pest Management Regulatory Agency, Department of Health

Dr. Richard Aucoin

I wouldn't want to bet my life that the registration exists for that cyanide, but there has historically been a cyanide-based product primarily for use in coyote control.

10:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

I know in Manitoba, especially in my riding, there have been a lot of problems with wolves and coyotes. The Province of Manitoba would have to make the application to use cyanide. I understand it happens at a provincial level, to use it in predator control.

10:25 a.m.

Chief Registrar and Director General, Registration Directorate, Pest Management Regulatory Agency, Department of Health

Dr. Richard Aucoin

That's correct. Typically these kinds of products, such as this cyanide product for coyote control--there's a long name, a sodium monofluoroacetate type of product--are restricted-class products that almost certainly must have a provincial permit for use or be part of a provincial program. There's very significant oversight of their use.

10:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

But the registration ultimately comes down to PMRA giving the authority to the province?