Agriculture Committee on Jan. 31st, 2008

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Thank you. Your time has expired, Mr. Atamanenko.

Mr. Easter, you have the floor.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Mountjoy, your remarks in the beginning are basically just the same as the minister's, and any ordinary Canadian who's reading those remarks would get the feeling that some good things are happening. But the reality on the ground is far different. This is Ottawa. This is big numbers. But the reality on the ground is far, far different.

I have never seen anything like this, and I've been in the farm movement since 1971. I have never seen so many people in tears, even during the interest rates of the 1980s. Families going under--I can tell you that 13 hog farmers within a five-mile circle near my home have gone out of business. Eight hundred sow operators went broke before Christmas, the third most efficient producer on Prince Edward Island.

Ms. Semaan, you said the cheques for the $600 million are going out. That's true, I agree with you, they are. However, on another program, as was said earlier, they've been clawed back. And the money that's coming from the Government of Canada right now--well intentioned, no question about it--is really in effect going to pay off Government of Canada debt, debts that are owed to the Government of Canada under other programs, to pay suppliers, to give greater liquidity and security to banks and other lenders, but not looking after the security and the liquidity of farmers themselves. That's the problem we've got.

So let me put it to you this way. You heard the remarks from the industry. They're saying to you that there are very few bankable results--that's true--that it was a cruel joke to many of our producers, and that is absolutely true too. That was not the intention, I know, but that's the reality. Let me put it this way. If the political will is there on the government side and there is the bureaucratic will--and I know what you had to go through, the Department of Finance, Treasury Board, PMO, and all that stuff--is it possible? If it requires legislation, I can tell you this; we're willing to pass legislation in a day if it's going to mean a difference to keeping more farmers on the land.

Can you decouple the APP and the CAIS program so that the pork industry has a choice? Can you do that? Can you be ready to do that within a week? Can you pay out the $100 and the $150 as a loan requested by the CCA? Can that money be put in place and be ready to go out in a week? And what would it take to implement the loan proposal by the Canadian Pork Council so that they could come in behind the banks, so that we have the opportunity for these guys to stay in the industry?

Yes, there's going to be rationalization and restructuring, we realize that, and that's a problem. But we need to maintain these industries. As was said, this is rural Canada at its best and right now at its worst, and we need to keep it.

Can those things be done if the political will is there? I think you'll find all opposition parties would be willing to work 24 hours a day to get this done, to have it in place by a week Friday. Now is that possible? Is the political will and the bureaucratic will there?

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Who wants to tackle that?

I would just add that when you're talking about the loan guarantees that have been assigned to the bank, or after the bank...it's not just pork; you're talking about cattle as well.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

Yes.

[Andrew Marsland]

The question really goes to a decision about whether legislation could be changed, and that's not really one as an official that it's appropriate for me to answer. Those decisions are, of course, decisions for ministers.

I think the early witnesses identified a number of legislative provisions in the AMP Act, which they would like to see changed, and I think the decision of whether or not those should be changed is a decision for ministers, as you appreciate, and not one that's--

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

I understand that, Andrew, and I don't want to interrupt you, but I can tell you this; if that's what's necessary--and I understand you've been in discussions with the industry at the bureaucratic level--the minister is willing to put forward those amendments in an emergency bill on Monday or Tuesday. We're willing to have a very serious look at it and see how quickly we can get it through. Around this town, if they want to get something through in a day, they actually can.

[Andrew Marsland]

Again, I think, with respect, it's a hypothetical question of going toward policy and not one that I'm in a position to really answer.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

You've got about ten seconds.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

That will do for now, and I guess, Lloyd, ten seconds isn't enough for you, is it?

[Lloyd St. Amand, Liberal, Brant, ON]

I'll try to make it enough, and I know Mr. Chair will be fair.

I'm just trying to put myself in the place of one of the hog producers who is facing Black Friday. I have no doubt that what Mr. Moffett and Mr. Schlegel presented to us this morning is actually going on, on the ground: inability to meet payroll, farm operation teetering. Beyond consulting with the provincial counterparts, etc., what optimistic message, if any, could be provided to those producers who want to know whether they can stay in business or not?

[Nada Semaan]

Actually, in terms of some of the comments I just made, a targeted advance for 2008 will be available to those producers within a few weeks, and that is where Canada delivers. Where it doesn't, there are interims. For example, Ontario is looking at delivering interims for 2008 immediately as well.

Regarding 2007, we've actually created a unit and a manager right at the hip of the director of all processing, whose is in charge of nothing but ensuring that hog files are going through. We were talking yesterday with the Pork Council about creating an ombudsman-like person who actually knows the files, whom they can call in one place and be helped on a personalized basis, again where Canada delivers.

I can't talk about the individual, but what we are trying to do is provide individual service to that person, so they can come in. We do understand the financial needs and that is why we are doing whatever we can within program parameters, within the capacity. We are working to accelerate the payments as quickly as possible, and we have been doing so.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Thank you.

We are going to adjourn right at 11 o'clock sharp, because there's another committee after this.

Mrs. Skelton.

[Carol Skelton, Conservative, Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK]

I just want to go back to the TAP program and the problems we had in the province of Saskatchewan. Can you explain the year-end problem that you had with some of our hog producers?

[Nada Semaan]

First of all, on behalf of the department, and especially myself, I do sincerely apologize for that. It was an innocent error; however, it couldn't have happened at a worse time and it couldn't have happened to a sector that was hurting more.

As you know, there was a Saskatchewan election going on. A lot of the other provinces had requested TAPs, and we had to wait until there was a government in place before they could ask for a TAP. In an effort to hurry up the TAP payments for that province, they used a computer program to try to accelerate the payment. There was, unfortunately, an error in the calculation. We were trying to do the Olympic average rather than the structural change with the Olympic average. We added rather than doing the division of the best of, so that obviously showed that a lot of people were going to get a lot more.

It was not a payment that went out. The letter to producers went out on January 14. The error was detected on January 15. A subsequent letter was mailed out on the 17th, and all producers who saw a very significant decline or zero payment, as well as producers who were significant and zero, about 34 producers, were contacted personally by administration to tell them. Most producers hadn't even received the letter, so they now knew there was a letter coming and another letter following it.

I went yesterday to the Canadian Pork Council to personally apologize, and I've spoken with Saskatchewan Pork to see how we can work with them and how we can case manage and correct anything we can.

[Carol Skelton, Conservative, Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK]

I want to know how many provinces, to be exact, haven't signed on to all these farm programs. How many are you still negotiating with?

[Nada Semaan]

Actually, all the provinces have now agreed to the new business risk management suite. That was the December 19 date I was referring to. So once we had the amending formula and enough to do, now we are in the process of implementing it all. The hog industry started with the big TAPs.

[Carol Skelton, Conservative, Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK]

But you're still negotiating? Some provinces aren't introducing programs?

[Nada Semaan]

I'm sorry, yes, targeted advance requires both the agreement of the province and the federal government, because there is always a risk, because you're doing it on future payments. For example, British Columbia prefers to do an interim advance. Ontario prefers to do an interim rather than a targeted advance. Quebec doesn't require the targeted advance per se; it does it within the ASRA program and the CAIS. So it's not a one-size-fits-all solution; it's just another tool that allows us to help.

[Carol Skelton, Conservative, Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK]

Okay, thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Thank you. Time has expired. I appreciate all the witnesses coming in.

Just for the committee's notes, we circulated the schedule that we set up for the first couple of months here. There have been a couple of minor changes. The March 18 meeting will actually be March 31 because March 18 is the break week, and those last two meetings on the 13th and the 31st aren't studies. They're just going to be meetings with the bee industry, followed by a meeting with the tobacco industry. It's not a formal study; it's just to hear the witnesses and get an update on what's happening.

[Paul Steckle, Liberal, Huron—Bruce, ON]

I think you also raised the question in that meeting a couple of days ago of having the new president of the Wheat Board--

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

That will happen once the order in council has been done. We haven't received it at committee yet.

I know the appointment was announced yesterday. Once it is in the Gazette, the committee can look at calling in Mr. White and we can move forward from there.

I thank everyone for coming in today on very short notice for this very important meeting.

The meeting is adjourned.