Agriculture Committee on Nov. 28th, 2007

[Colleen Ross]

We need to continue to strengthen the programs we have in Canada, like orderly marketing, single-desk selling, and supply management. We can even carry those on to the hog and cattle sectors. Those things have guaranteed and they've also controlled production. There's nothing wrong with taking a bit of land out of production once in a while.

In P.E.I., some of the members of the National Farmers Union are farming potatoes. One family in particular farmed over 1,000 acres of potatoes. That's a lot of potatoes. But the potato growers agreed amongst themselves to take land out of production so they could force the price up, and it worked. So the next year when the price went up, they all had to control themselves and agree amongst themselves...because farmers do this, and I'm one of them. When the price goes up, what do we do? We just grow more because we see a window of opportunity to make a bit more money. They said, hold back, let's modify the amount of land we have in production so we can maintain those high prices. So that's what they've done, and they were able to keep the prices up for another year. The prices aren't great.

Another thing farmers do is really lower our standards. Grain prices right now aren't too bad, but when you adjust them for inflation, they're still not that great from what we saw 30 years ago. To blame it on the Canadian dollar and say we're losing money because the Canadian dollar is so high...in the mid-seventies the Canadian dollar was as high as it's ever been, and so were grain prices.

Why are we now saying that the cattle industry and the grain industry can't both be profitable at the same time? I believe they can. Let's look at introducing some orderly marketing in the livestock industry.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Okay.

Merci beaucoup.

Ms. Skelton, you're on.

[Carol Skelton, Conservative, Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK]

Thank you very much for coming today.

Mr. Friesen, how would the equity among the provinces be maintained and our WTO commitments met if AgriFlex programming were implemented? Could you explain that to me? I'm having problems with that.

[Bob Friesen]

As far as the Uruguay Round commitments in amber spending go, we have about $4.5 billion and we're currently spending just under $2 billion, so we would have lots of room there.

As far as equity is concerned, the point CFA members make is that some provinces are already spending their own money on companion programs. Federal dollars would give other provinces the opportunity to seed companion programs, and it would put those provinces on a more level footing with the ones that are already spending money on companion programs.

We're absolutely not suggesting that the entire BRM package should be block funding. We are saying there are some areas where components of provincial-specific programs would address needs more adequately than the national program, simply because of the variation in agriculture. Our goal is not to create inequity.

Let me use the example of Saskatchewan and Alberta. If Saskatchewan received some federal dollars, that would at least give them the impetus to do something in the province so there wouldn't be that equity problem. The problem between Saskatchewan and Alberta is almost as bad as the problem we had in the past between Canadian producers and U.S. producers. We're saying in that case it could help to get closer to that equity.

[Carol Skelton, Conservative, Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK]

Great.

To Ms. Ross, we had the pork producers in on Monday. Ms. Regier likely knows that we have four producers in Saskatchewan that produce three-quarters of the hogs in that province.

What are your feelings on that? You're talking about the large companies taking over and everything. To me, they are hog factories that are putting out huge numbers of hogs, and a lot of smaller farmers aren't able to compete with them.

[Colleen Ross]

That's right. We've always criticized concentration in the marketplace and these intensive livestock operations that have really cheap imported labour. A lot of them aren't even owned by Canadian companies; they're owned by Tyson or Cargill. They're just finishing hogs here in Canada, and sometimes they're even shipping them over the border to be slaughtered in the U.S. It's made it very difficult in Canada to compete and has put a lot of small producers out of business.

In my own community some farmers have chosen to build intensive livestock barns on their farms and have been finishing hogs, and within two years they've gone bankrupt. They've walked away because their margins have been so tight. Basically what they've done is become labourers on their own farms. I think there may be two or three pork producers in my community left, and Mr. Lauzon would know some of them. It's really quite distressing to see these families with their incredible heritage and dignity, having been here for several generations, immigrants from Holland, basically on the edge of bailing out.

The tractor dealership in my community went bankrupt in the past two months. We've relied heavily on those industries and farmers to keep them viable. All we have left now keeping our community viable are small supply management farms in our community.

I would like to see less than three-quarters of all hogs in Canada being produced by three companies.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

You have about 30 seconds left.

[Colleen Ross]

We need more family farms.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Okay.

[Carol Skelton, Conservative, Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK]

What recommendations do you have for the non-BRM aspect of the Growing Forward framework, Mr. Friesen?

[Bob Friesen]

For the non-BRM, we have the public goods and services pillar, such as the ALUS initiative, or environmental farm plans; food safety programs, which help us to more effectively brand Canada; and also the strategic growth pillar.

I didn't even touch on the potential that we have in the bioenergy field. We've thought for some time there is potential to create revenue streams for farmers there, both with regard to ethanol, or biodiesel, and with regard to solar power, and biodigesters. As well, some provinces are already starting to trade carbon credits; and we really need a national strategy to address the trading of carbon credits to create a revenue stream for farmers as well.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Thank you.

Mr. Temelkovski, you're on.

[Lui Temelkovski, Liberal, Oak Ridges—Markham, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

And thank you to the presenters.

I have two basic questions, one for Ms. Regier in terms of young people in farming. I have a riding that's both rural and urban. I have farmers selling one farm in the urban part of the riding and moving to the rural part of the same riding, as the city continues to grow. And I've met with them, the York region's horticultural association and its dairy farmers association, and have spoken with them about their plight in the business.

Also, I come from the financial industry and am interested in knowing some of the financing obstacles when a farm goes from one generation to the next, and so on.

[Kalissa Regier]

Well, the biggest obstacle.... Financing a farm from one generation to the next is about maintaining financial prosperity for many generations at once. It's obviously more advantageous for a farm to be sold for a sum of money than to be passed on.

As far as your situation goes, I wish we had some more of that happening in Saskatchewan. We have a lot of expansive rural areas that are deserted, as we speak; we don't have people even wanting to live in that situation.

[Lui Temelkovski, Liberal, Oak Ridges—Markham, ON]

On the cost of a modern day farm, dairy farm or grain farm, Colleen, in cattle farming is it much different from what it used to be in the past?

It looked like there was a lot of money invested in the operations I saw on the tour I had going to five farms, of which one was a horse farm, another one was a dairy farm, the third one was a cucumber grower who grew five million cucumbers a year and fed 60% of Ontario in cucumbers.

[Colleen Ross]

I have a 23-year-old daughter. She turned 23 this November. She is graduating from university in December. She used to want to be a doctor and got accepted into a science program, but now she is telling me that she's going to farm. It was a little distressing for me, honestly, as a mother, that my 23-year-old daughter has been so influenced by us that she now wants to farm. She wants to be a farmer and a chef and she is actually a brilliant artist.

I have to facilitate that, but the way it is in agriculture right now our farms become our retirement, and we shouldn't look at it that way. We need to look at our farms as who we are and who are children are. That's the way it used to be, but because we have such incredible debt, I look at my farm as my security for hopefully a few years down the track. Before I get to that point, I hope I have my debt as low as I can so that when I sell my farm I can keep a bit more of that money. The reality is that my kids want to farm and I have to make that happen because I am the only way they're going to do it.

There are new programs coming out, though, such as apprenticeship and mentor programs, especially in the greenbelt areas around Toronto and Guelph, where there is a higher population than we have here in eastern Ontario. There are a lot of young people coming from the cities or even coming off farms who may not be able to farm on their property. They are learning how to farm, especially doing horticultural-type farming, community-shared agriculture, market gardening, and supplying to restaurants or independent grocery stores. It has been really encouraging to see these programs.

There's a farm called Everdale farm, and it's a learning centre outside of Guelph. There's the Ignatius Jesuit Retreat Centre. The Jesuits on the Ignatius farm are members of the NFU. They also have a mentorship program where they are growing farmers. It's called farmers growing farmers. Some of that is happening.

I know a young farmer who is actually running a very success CSA just outside of Ottawa, with about 200 clients. She is not farming on her own land; she is farming on somebody else's land. It's a wonderful family that has about 400 acres, and they said, we can't do that, but we really love what you want to do. They opened up their land and gave her the opportunity. She is a farmer; she just doesn't have to own her own land.

Also, a new wave of farmer in Canada will also be our immigrants. Our immigrants may also be our new farmers. There are some programs out now to train immigrants to farm in Canada, to supply local ethnic markets. That will be the new face of farming in Canada.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Thank you.

Your time has expired, Mr. Temelkovski.

Monsieur Lauzon.

[Guy Lauzon, Conservative, Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry, ON]

I'm last, so it has to be me.

Thank you very much. It's nice seeing you again, Colleen, and Mr. Friesen, Ms. Regier.

I have to say that I'm a little shell-shocked almost on hearing your comments, because when I go through my riding and speak to my agricultural people, I usually feel pretty good. They're saying, way to go, Guy, things are happening--generally speaking. There are some exceptions. I should say upfront that I don't have huge hog farms in my area, or not many, and it is the same with beef.

I was proud when I was asked to be parliamentary secretary to the agriculture minister because in the last less than two years we have put $4.5 billion into agriculture, and that has resonated extremely well with most of the farmers in my riding.

You mentioned, Mr. Friesen, that the minister has had some federal-provincial negotiations with his counterparts at the provinces. One of the first things he said to me when I got this job to work with him was, here are your marching orders. I wanted to know how he wanted me to help him. He said that the one thing to do was put farmers first. If you notice, what we've been doing here since we've taken government is we've put farmers first. That is what I've been told to do by my farmers in my riding, and I've tried to do that. It's certainly up near the top.

The other thing he said was that what we have to do is get every farm to the point where they are profitable and they are sustainable. He said that if we don't understand anything else, at least we must understand that. Really, for the grassroots farmers, the guys who milk the cows and harvest their crops in my riding, that's all they want. They want a level playing field. I thought, and I still think, that we're getting there, and as a matter of fact, with Growing Forward the feedback I'm getting is very positive.

Mr. Friesen, you said you thought there were exhaustive consultations throughout the country for Growing Forward. I thought the farmers had input on this, and this is what they tell me, and they like it. I'm assuming that you think there are many good things about it, or at least some good things. I'd like to get your opinion on Growing Forward--what the good things are and maybe where the consultations have lacked, because I understand there was a lot of input from the grassroots up. Could you just elaborate on what you think about Growing Forward, the positives of it, and where we can improve it?

[Bob Friesen]

Thank you very much.

I have a comment on your comments earlier. You're absolutely right, we cannot continue to sustain an agricultural industry that draws somewhere between $6 billion and $8 billion of government money from both levels of government every year. Yes, we have to continue to expect money to maintain the industry while we're developing policy, but that's exactly why CFA members were so focused on trying to talk about solutions rather than just shout about their problems. It's easy to shout about the problems. So the strategic growth pillar is extremely important to us.

That Growing Forward document, as I said earlier, contained the elements that we thought were important in moving forward. As I said earlier, we would like to see what it's eventually going to look like on the ground, but that's why I believe the industry is raring and ready to go to start talking about program detail and the different initiatives and different ideas that there are.

Look, I can tell you that my members would tell you that the whole idea of partnership is better now than it has been for a long time. We believe that the departmental people who were in charge of the consultation took seriously the concept of partnering. Yes, we will criticize and complain when we don't think we're being listened to--and we're not always listened to--but we think that consultation on developing the Growing Forward document was a positive experience. And not only that, but when CFA hosted the ministers-industry round table in Whistler, there was a real feeling from all the agriculture ministers and the departments that the industry belonged there, and they liked the engagement of having the industry and ministers sitting at a table like this and talking about solutions.

[Guy Lauzon, Conservative, Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry, ON]

I'm glad you mentioned that, because that's the feedback I get. I'm not so sure I got that feedback from you, Colleen.

Seriously, the feedback I get from the people on the tractor every day is that they feel they have a better ear, maybe, than they've ever had. They feel there's some light at the end of the tunnel now.

It's not perfect. One of the things--

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Your time has actually expired. We might have time at the end.

We've been talking a lot about BRM and we've only touched on some of the non-BRM issues within Growing Forward. You did talk about some of the public good, the public services, and the ALUS program, which CAP has been running in Manitoba. Other CFA partners have been running that in P.E.I., and I believe Ontario and Saskatchewan have become involved, as well.

I wonder if both organizations could talk about some of these environmental programs, and also investment in science and technology and research and development, from the standpoint of what's happening within the realm of Ag Canada, the university system, and at the private industry level. I've always been a big believer that the strength of agriculture in Canada has been built not only upon the quality of people we have running our farm operations, but on the great research that has taken place across this country in plant breeding and animal breeding, farm management practices, the new varieties. I've always felt that is what has given us an advantage against those international competitors.

Could you talk about that for a few minutes? I'd really appreciate it.

Colleen, would you like to go first?

[Colleen Ross]

Thank you.

I agree, Canada is a leader internationally in science and technology, and in agriculture and innovation. I studied at the University of Guelph in the early eighties. I've seen a lot of farmers embrace a lot of technologies, but as I said, technology has often not embraced us as far as our bottom line goes. We need to have appropriate technologies--my emphasis is on the word “appropriate”--whether that is plant breeding, livestock, or the equipment we use on the farm, to ensure our bottom dollar is affected in a positive way. The methane digesters, which some people are developing on their farms, and biodiesels are good technologies, but they need a lot more work.

We do have an issue in the National Farmers Union with growing food for fuel. The world stockpile of food is at an all-time low. I was in New York City this September, and they only have three days of food at one time. It's the same in Washington and in Canada. Around the world, stockpiles are at an all-time low. A lot of these technologies are actually creating poverty and hunger. We have to be very careful about taking good arable land out of production for growing food and growing fuel instead.

The conversion ratio for what it actually costs in natural resources to grow that food that's going to be turned into fuel just isn't there yet. We need to do a lot more work on that technology before we get too excited about it. And of course a lot of industries are going to profit very nicely from that technology, especially the seed and technology companies that are pushing for that.

So I would provide a caution on that. But certainly I'm a progressive farmer, and I embrace what I believe is going to be environmentally and morally responsible. I weigh things a lot more broadly than just embracing the latest technology.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Mr. Friesen.

[Bob Friesen]

First of all, there needs to be a balance between public and private research funding. We recognize the need for proprietary research. We don't want to stifle innovation, but we also need to make sure farmers are kept on the cutting edge of innovation without being held to ransom from proprietors. So there needs to be an important balance there.

We also have to make sure the results of research are carried on through to the end user, so there's practical use for it on the ground. We suggested that in our Canadian farm bill we should have innovation centres or centres of excellence across Canada, so farmers can avail themselves of technology.

But also we're so far behind the U.S. in the whole area of bioenergy, and of course the U.S. is so far behind Brazil. We need to make sure, when we latch onto this bioenergy in a stronger way, that we do so with competitive policy. Someone once asked why governments should keep on giving Canadian farmers money if they're not efficient. They're just as efficient, they're more efficient than any other farmers in the world, but there are areas where the U.S. is outcompeting us on agricultural policy.

So if we are to stand a chance in the ethanol or biodiesel industry, we will have to make sure we have competitive policy in place, and we need to be out of the gate faster. Wayne Gretzky was once asked why he was so good, and he said he learned to go where the puck was going to be, not where the puck was or had been. I'm not expert enough to do it, but we need people who can tell us where the puck will be so we can move the industry in that direction.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Thank you.

We have time in these last 15 minutes before bells start ringing to get to all the parties for supplemental questions.

Mr. Boshcoff.