Evidence of meeting #17 for Agriculture and Agri-Food in the 40th Parliament, 2nd session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was fuel.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Pierre Lemieux Conservative Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON
Right, but what I'm interested in is when it will be marketable in a large way.
We're still opening first-generation plants. I've been to the announcements on large first-generation plants. I'm asking your opinion: When do you see second-generation plants being widespread across the economic landscape here in Canada and an actual transition of most of the market to second-generation renewable fuels?
Executive Vice-President, Iogen Corporation, Canadian Renewable Fuels Association
He can do biodiesel, and I'll try the one on cellulose.
If you're talking about wide-scale distribution on the ethanol side of cellulosic biomass-derived ethanol, I think large-scale distribution is post-2015.
Conservative
President and Chief Executive Officer, Biox Corporation, Canadian Renewable Fuels Association
As for biodiesel, I think we could do that. We're already there. Of the 120 million litres in Canada, almost 100 million litres of it is second generation.
We're already there to some extent. We just need to move the market forward.
Executive Vice-President, Iogen Corporation, Canadian Renewable Fuels Association
I'd like to comment about Canada.
They're much more aggressive in terms of at least the targets they've set, and whether they achieve them is a different matter, but they have established targets in the United States for 16 billion gallons. That's a substantial number. It's actually one and a half times Canada's total gasoline consumption.
So the target is 16 billion gallons of cellulosic ethanol in the market in the U.S. by 2022, but scaling up from 2010. They're starting with 100 million gallons in 2010, 250 million gallons in 2011, and gradually the curve gets steeper until they hit 16 billion gallons by 2022.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Larry Miller
Thank you very much.
Your time is up, Mr. Lemieux.
Madam Bonsant.
France Bonsant Bloc Compton—Stanstead, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I am trying to understand but I am anything but a biologist. You bring corn to a company. Is this a kind of refinery like we see for oil? Is that what it is? Okay, I see that all over. Do you negotiate directly with farmers to buy corn by the bushel?
President, Canadian Renewable Fuels Association
Yes, Madam Bonsant, I can answer the question. Yes, these are biorefineries. Looking at the production of ethanol, it is only the starch portion of the grain that is used in the production of ethanol. The nutrients and vitamins portion is extracted out of the production process. That becomes the distiller grain, which then finds its way back into the agriculture sector as an animal feed. That's the most valuable part for farmers in terms of the concentration of those vitamins and nutrients in the distiller grain. It's only the starch portion that finds itself in the ethanol production.
Bloc
France Bonsant Bloc Compton—Stanstead, QC
Why corn? Why not canola oil, olive oil or things like that? When oil is $150 a barrel, there are always inventors who will come up with things. In my riding, there is a gentleman who invented a car that runs on used french fry oil. It is not corn oil, it is olive oil mixed with other ingredients.
President, Canadian Renewable Fuels Association
I'll answer your other question first. Again, on corn used, I forgot to answer your second question, which was about whether our plants contract directly with farmers. Yes, they do. There's a variety of contractual arrangements they can make to supply their grains directly to the ethanol plants.
We're talking about two different biofuels. When you talk about corn, that's used in the production of ethanol. When you talk about canola or oil-based oilseeds, you're talking about the production of biodiesel. It's simply a different fuel.
Tim, you might want to comment.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Biox Corporation, Canadian Renewable Fuels Association
Simply put, ethanol, in Canada anyway, is cars. Diesel, or biodiesel, is buses and trucks. I'm not eating ethanol's lunch and they're not eating our lunch with regard to that. It's just two different fuels. For your fats that are made into the biodiesel a car runs on, that's a diesel engine, and that's what we do. The starch portion of corn would go into gasoline. They're very different platforms.
Bloc
France Bonsant Bloc Compton—Stanstead, QC
In some years, corn is diseased; it has a kind of worm or something like that. Can it still be used? I know that the bugs do not get into the corn, but is the corn still of the same quality when it comes to making ethanol?
President, Canadian Renewable Fuels Association
Yes, it is. On the corn side, again, we can differentiate between corn grown for food consumption and corn used for feed consumption. The corn they use in ethanol production in North America is referred to as yellow dent corn. It's feed-based corn. This isn't a corn that you would find on the food side. That corn, again, is industrial-use corn, on the feedstock side for animal feed, and in the case of ethanol production. It's a different variety and a different quality of corn.
Bloc
France Bonsant Bloc Compton—Stanstead, QC
Can ethanol be put into jet fuel? We hear a lot about cars and about diesel, but can ethanol be added to jet fuel?
President and Chief Executive Officer, Biox Corporation, Canadian Renewable Fuels Association
No. A jet engine is more like a diesel engine. There are some biodiesel applications in jet. One of the most recent was the New Zealand airline, I think, that flew jet biodiesel. It's the biodiesel application that would find its way more into jet, but it's not likely to be that application. It would be more likely to be road use and transportation use than jet use--for a bunch of complications that Mr. Boag would get into.
The jet portion is out of the diesel or distillate portion of a barrel. A barrel breaks down to about a third diesel and about a third gasoline. As for the rest, it's bitumen at the bottom and sort of vapours on the top, but I know I have those slightly wrong.
They're different portions altogether and they're different markets. That's what these guys do very well.
Bloc
France Bonsant Bloc Compton—Stanstead, QC
We know that aircraft are heavy polluters. We want to reduce greenhouse gas emissions from trucks and cars, but is anyone studying how to reduce emissions from airplanes at the moment?
President, Canadian Petroleum Products Institute
There's a lot of work going on in a lot of different avenues of looking at the potential for biofuels to drive higher environmental performance. That's happening in road transport, it's happening in marine transport, and it's happening in air transport. I think most recently some activity has been sponsored by the International Civil Aviation Organization, working with the aviation community to look at the future potential for biofuels in an aviation application.
So yes, there's lots of research and lots of investigation going on. Much of that will continue for some period of time, because there's a lot of dialogue and debate on those kinds of performance implications.
Bloc
France Bonsant Bloc Compton—Stanstead, QC
The government was asking for gas to contain at least 5% ethanol.
Conservative
Bloc
Conservative
Bloc