Agriculture Committee on Oct. 29th, 2009

[Jennifer MacTavish]

I would love to comment. It's something that is often brought to our attention. The truth of the matter is, as we increase our breeding flocks, they're going to have market animals as well. Not as many ram lambs are sold as breeding stock as ewe lambs, and ram lambs, wethers, tend to be the ones that are hitting the markets. What we did notice was that we were capturing more and more of our market share the more our purebred industry expanded. Accessing international markets and encouraging them to have a diversity of options is part of our hope to expand our market.

[The Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

That's good, and I certainly wasn't being critical of it.

There is one other point you talked about in your last comment. You talked about the products, some of the chemical companies and drug companies. You mentioned a small market, and I presume you meant Canada, because compared to the United States, it is. One thing that I know we have been trying to work on--and I think probably with due credit to previous governments--is to get some kind of harmonization of an approval system so that when a drug, a chemical, or whatever is approved, it can be approved basically as a North American approval, versus one for the United States and one for Canada.

If we could do that, I guess you would agree it would be a good thing.

[Jennifer MacTavish]

Yes, that would be wonderful.

[The Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

Thank you.

I now turn it over to Mr. Easter for five minutes.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

Thank you, and thank you to all the witnesses.

Jennifer, I agree with almost everything you said. I was on a farm in Nova Scotia on Monday, and out of 250 ewes, they had lost 43 to the coyotes just this summer--it's unbelievable--and that was with fencing. So it's a serious issue.

On the security required for fertilizer chemicals, we did have the June 2009 report, and I forget whether or not the government responded. We need to check into that. We might not have even asked for a response. I've seen that happen in the past, but you would think the minister, out of decency, would respond anyway. In any event, we'll have to check that.

The study here is a little bit different. It is on competitiveness, so I have a few questions specifically to the competitive issue. From my point of view, there are many areas where the government is leaving Canadian farmers less competitive against the United States. The list is too long to go through.

On the tax security credit in the United States versus our nothing, how does that work?

[David MacKay]

The American tax security credit is a 30% enhanced tax credit over and above the standard deductions that an agri-retailer would have through their tax system. In addition to that, however, they also have access to specialized security equipment. An example would be valve locks for anhydrous tanks that they can apply for to receive as much as a 50% rebate on those products.

If you analyze the overall numbers, what you're seeing is generally a 50-50 split between the government and industry on the cost of security infrastructure, including software training, personnel clearance, and that type of thing. They see that as just their obligation, literally, to share the load towards a goal that obviously benefits all of society in the United States.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

In Canada, it's zero support.

[Ken Clancy]

There's none. These would be typical operational costs or capital costs that you capitalize when you get your typical writedown.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

Now, if I read correctly what is in the Western Producer, and I certainly wouldn't question what the Western Producer prints, this is also leading to fear among the agri-retailers and their wanting to get out of the industry, which would mean further and further consolidation.

As the witnesses the other day from the Prince Edward Island Potato Board indicated, with some of these larger companies in the industry you get linked buying. If you're going to sell to them on the one end, you're going to have to buy chemicals or fertilizer on the other. So there could be an impact there with further consolidation in the industry and fewer players on the supply side. That could also have an impact on the competitive position of the farmer.

I take from some correspondence from you, Dave, that there is a fear right now in the industry that the bigger companies are selling fertilizers as loss leaders, basically. They're lowering the price, and it's having consequences in your industry as well.

[David MacKay]

As you can appreciate, with the mandate I have, I'd prefer not to speak to any pricing strategies per se. That's not something CAAR generally comments on. But I think if you're a farmer in today's market, you know that every day, probably for the last five or six months, there has been a sale on crop inputs. You've gone from the highs to literally the lows in six to eight months. But like all sales, they end, and with fewer competitors, the chance of them ending sooner is likely.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

They're liable to gouge the market at a later date.

This is the final question I have. You seem to be getting--and I'm not surprised by this--the royal runaround from ministers, between Van Loan switching you off to Ritz, Ritz switching you to the department, and no one seemingly wanting to take the issue on. You're really dealing with several departments: Transport Canada, Natural Resources, Public Security, and Agriculture.

What is the situation there? I might as well lay this out on the table. I would worry. Your brief was pretty aggressive against the government, and what we have found from other organizations is that when you criticize, you might have the door slammed in your nose and have trouble getting back in again. I worry about that. If that happens, please report it to us and we'll talk about it.

What is the situation with the government? Did you try the Prime Minister's Office?

[David MacKay]

Yes. There was no response.

[The Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

Your time has expired, Mr. Easter.

I'll now move to Mr. Richards for five minutes.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Wild Rose, AB]

Thank you.

I'll start with you, Ms. MacTavish. I certainly appreciate you being here on behalf of sheep producers. I don't have a lot of sheep producers in my riding, but I do have some, and I do have one really large wool mill out near Carstairs. My uncle actually used to be a sheep farmer at one time as well, so I do have a bit of a connection there.

I have several questions I would like to ask. You mentioned sheep producers and some of the problems they have with predators. I know that all farmers in my riding, whether they're sheep producers or other producers, have similar types of problems with predators, such as coyotes and gophers. One of the things they have made very clear is that the long-gun registry is a real problem for them. It causes great issues dealing with those pests and those predators. Probably the biggest single complaint I get in my riding is about that long-gun registry, certainly among farmers. The only thing that might rival it might be the Wheat Board monopoly. Those are the big concerns from farmers in my riding.

You talked about dealing with predators. Our government recognizes the need to stop going after farmers and hunters and others who are law-abiding citizens who just want to be able to use their guns to deal with things like the predators they have on their farms. We recognize that, and we have brought forward a bill, Bill C-391, that we want to see get rid of the long-gun registry. The biggest problem we have in doing that is that we have members in the opposition who represent rural areas who aren't standing up for their constituents. It would appear to me that they're going to take their bidding from their political masters here in Ottawa rather than listening to their constituents and standing up for those farmers and supporting us in trying to get rid of that long-gun registry.

Would the farmers you represent, the sheep producers you represent, find that the long-gun registry is something they'd like to see gone so that the nuisance is no longer there and they can deal with these predators?

[Jennifer MacTavish]

They haven't brought that up specifically, to be honest. They need more tools in their tool boxes. I suspect that in some provinces guns are tools they already have.

The issue is that we need some real knowledge around which predators to target. Going after any coyote is not the problem, because you may not kill the killer. In Alberta, for instance, coyotes aren't even registered as predators, so producers may have some difficulty getting compensation.

Guns are an option already in the tool box, but we need other options or funding to help with fencing or putting up more barns for sheep. It's maybe not the best option because sheep are healthier when they're in pastures, but we need more tools.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Wild Rose, AB]

I appreciate that. Many farmers have told me that is one of their big concerns and causes them problems. I certainly hope the opposition is going to stand up and vote for their constituents on that.

Let me switch gears a little. I just want to get some background on the producers you represent. I'll ask you a series of questions. We don't have a lot of time, so I'll let you address those you feel you can in the time we have.

How many producers do you represent? I don't know how many sheep producers we have in Canada.

[Jennifer MacTavish]

There are 11,032, to be precise.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Wild Rose, AB]

Wow, that's a more precise figure than I imagined I could expect.

What about the regional breakdown? What is the average age of producers, and how has that changed over the last 10 or 20 years.

Do sheep farms tend to be small or large? Are there large variances in that? Are they generally part of mixed farms?

Where I'm kind of going on all this is to my final question: what do you see for the future? Do you see a future for young farmers in the sheep-producing industry?

I'll throw that whole bundle of questions at you and let you address them the best you can.

[Jennifer MacTavish]

Ontario, Quebec, Alberta, and Saskatchewan are our biggest lamb-producing provinces, in that order. But Ontario and Quebec sort of vie for first and second, depending on what Stats Canada has to say.

The average flock size is 99 head, and that's growing. So we're almost into triple digits, and we're excited about that.

As far as age, I'm going to use Alberta as an example. Last week Alberta had this huge sheep symposium. They had lots of young producers there with young children. There was lots of enthusiasm for the industry. Guys are recognizing that there is room for growth and increased productivity.

The vice-chair of my board is 32 years old, so it's a relatively young board. Producers who are in the industry right now are quite excited about the potential.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Wild Rose, AB]

That's great news. I'm glad to hear that. One of the big concerns I have about farming in general is that we soon may not have young farmers getting into the various industries to support the farms, especially the family farms as they go forward. From what you've said about the size of sheep farms, it sounds like they are typically family farms. That's positive, as far as that continuing for your industry.

[Jennifer MacTavish]

There is a flip side to that too. Some of the older producers are having a hard time with succession planning because farming isn't sexy. You're not making a lot of money at it.

Sheep farming is very sexy.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[The Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

Thank you very much.

We'll move to Ms. Bonsant for five minutes.

[France Bonsant, Bloc, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

Mr. MacKay, you stated that the government was treating you like a ping-pong ball and that you did not know where to turn to next. Do not ask yourself too many questions: for three years now, all that it has done is table bills relating to law and order. In my view, agriculture is very low on the shopping list. There are a lot of farmers in my riding. They have not yet learned to shoot flies with cannon balls, but I believe this will soon be demanded of them.

I do not want to be the bearer of bad news, but I will nevertheless share some with you. Representatives from CN and the Canadian Wheat Board who appeared before the Committee told us that CN wished to close several transshipment sites and remove certain cars from trains.

I would like to know if your members will be affected by these closures and, if so, what effect this decision by CN and the government will have on production.

[Ken Clancy]

I don't think we have any knowledge that CN closing rail lines is directly impacting our members. My personal business is on a CP branch line that runs between Sicamous, British Columbia, and Vernon. It was owned by CP but operated by a private company, OmniTRACS. That line was shut down here in the last couple of months.