Evidence of meeting #6 for Agriculture and Agri-Food in the 40th Parliament, 2nd session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was cattle.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Grant Robertson  Board Member, National Farmers Union
Fred Tait  Board Member, National Farmers Union
Carol Haley  Rancher, As an Individual
Bill Jeffrey  President, Perth County Beef Farmers Association
Ed Fossen  Director, Kettle River Stockmen's Association
Henry Rosing  Rancher, As an Individual
Ken Strawbridge  Consultant, Perth County Beef Farmers Association

France Bonsant Bloc Compton—Stanstead, QC

I am not a producer, but I am faced with a dilemma that I would like to raise with you.

Last week, the newspapers reported that American producers wanted to kill and chop up 1.5 million dairy cows. That is a lot of hamburger meat! One also has to take into account the cost of getting rid of carcasses, the fact that the price of leather is going down, partly because of the automobile sector crisis, and the financial consequences that COOL will have. We've been talking about exports, but I would be surprised if we were able to export to the United States. If I understood correctly, imports from the States have doubled since 2002.

How are you going to survive in these kinds of circumstances?

12:50 p.m.

Board Member, National Farmers Union

Grant Robertson

One of the things we have to realize is that we're going to have to get money into the pockets of farmers right now.

Mr. Atamanenko asked us a question about what needs to be done right away. Unfortunately, we didn't have enough time to answer it. The number one thing we think needs to happen is that we need to support farmers, but we need to start at the farm gate. We need to make sure that it's actually getting to farmers. The last time we tried to do this through BSE we ended up helping the packers consolidate the industry and move forward. It's not going to be easy over the next little while between COOL, the complete meltdown in dairy in the United States, a couple of things that are happening in Mexico, and the onslaught of Brazilian meat now too. There are a lot of issues that are coming forward, so we need to get at that.

We also need to get at the issue of captive supply. The National Farmers Union is a pro-trade, pro-market organization, but we recognize that we're not in a free market situation right now; we are in a market that actually undermines the free market. So all we're asking in the NFU is that we actually have a free market for our cattle in Canada. We think it would be a novel approach to have for the next little while, to actually move toward a free market system, where we're not in a captive supply system where the market itself is being manipulated and moved. That is the direction we think we have to go.

12:50 p.m.

Board Member, National Farmers Union

Fred Tait

I'll add one little bit more to that.

We spent most of my adult life proving that central planning doesn't work. We were successful in that only to have it replaced domestically by a centrally planned non-competitive market system that pulls all the wealth out of rural communities.

One of the criticisms we had of our great enemy was that it was undemocratic. That's why we're here before a democratic body, hoping they will break up this centrally commanded system that takes all the wealth out of rural Canada, and hoping that it will be distributed equally again among the people who create it. That is your mandate for being here in this chamber.

France Bonsant Bloc Compton—Stanstead, QC

Fine. Does anyone else want to respond?

12:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Larry Miller

You have about a minute and a half, or close to that.

France Bonsant Bloc Compton—Stanstead, QC

I'll give the floor to my colleague, Mr. Bellavance.

André Bellavance Bloc Richmond—Arthabaska, QC

Mr. Rosing, I share your concerns about the labelling rules. What do you think of the government's response? Although it has received no formal confirmation in this regard, it has said that the Americans appear to be easing their stance. When Mr. Vilsack, the new Agriculture Secretary, took up his duties, the rules were not eased. In fact, he is expected to take a very rigid attitude concerning labelling rules.

The government decided not to file a complaint with the World Trade Organization, but now we are wondering whether we should have done so. Farmers are asking for a complaint to be filed, but the Canadian stance on these labelling rules seems to be vague. That's what I'm hearing from your testimony. Am I right?

12:55 p.m.

Rancher, As an Individual

Henry Rosing

In Manitoba, as I mentioned, we are used to trading agricultural commodities into the U.S. Pigs are being slaughtered in the U.S.; cattle are being slaughtered in the U.S. At the times when the advantage shifts to the Manitoba producers, it's usually because of currency issues or cheaper feed grain, if our barley is cheaper than their corn. Then a significant amount of exports takes place.

This usually rattles protectionist sentiments in the northern states, typically among Democratic senators, like Mr. Conrad and others, who are fighting to get re-elected and are playing to their constituency who don't like the Canadian trucks driving by every day. They were limited in their scope by other forces in the U.S. political system, by a Republican majority in one of the houses or a president who tamped down their proposals.

What worries us now is that we have a situation where they have a lot more influence. Now that Mr. Vilsack is agriculture secretary, the Democratic senators find a far-more lending ear to their concerns, and they are not being opposed by a majority in the houses or a presidency that will temper their intentions. So I continue to think it should be the number one priority of our government to monitor this, to be very actively involved, and to make it a top priority.

I'm not a trade expert, so I'm not the one to ask. I did agree when the challenge under the WTO was dropped and the regulation was changed. As for what to do now, I don't know. I do know that Mr. Vilsack has sent a clarification letter in his approval dated February 20.

Mr. Bezan and others may have a far more educated opinion than I have.

12:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Larry Miller

Thank you, Mr. Rosing. Maybe you can enlarge on that later. I'm just trying to be fair to everyone.

I got out of order the last time, and I apologize to Mr. Bezan. So it'll be Mr. Bezan for five minutes, and then Mr. Shipley.

12:55 p.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake, MB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

It's great to be back at the agriculture committee, visiting with some friends and some foes, who've been hailed to look at this important issue that is of great concern right across this country, but especially in my riding of Selkirk—Interlake.

I'm one who's still involved in the cattle industry. I have a brother who's ranching in Saskatchewan and another brother ranching with my father in western Manitoba. There's no question that the hurt is real and substantial, and we have to address it.

I do appreciate everybody taking their time out of their busy schedules to be here and presenting to us today. In the NFU presentation, there's actually some stuff in here that I agree with. I do have a concern about packer-controlled cattle, and packer ownership specifically, but I don't want to see us get too carried away and forego some of the risk management tools that are out there, like foreign contracting. As a producer, and I know lots of producers, I want to have access to those tools to manage the risk. So we have to make sure we don't get carried away with some of these comments.

The one thing I was hoping to hear from NFU today, though, was an apology. I was kind of hoping that Neil Peacock would be here to talk about what he was doing down at a meeting with R-CALF in Montana. I look at the press releases from the 13th, from the 19th, letters to the editor from Stewart Wells. There's no question, not once does it denounce R-CALF and their behaviour as it relates to COOL and how that is causing significant injury to the cattlemen, taking dollars out of our pockets today because of that support they have for Mr. Vilsack and everything they're doing in the U.S. to stem the flow of Canadian goods, Canadian cattle, and Canadian beef into that marketplace.

You do talk about what R-CALF did on BSE. I can tell you that the chair of this committee and I have been in the courtrooms in Seattle, in Portland, in Sioux Falls to make sure the Canadian position was carried forward in those courtrooms. I see CCA is at all those hearings, so it's nice that NFU has finally come onside and said that the BSE challenge by R-CALF is bad. But they don't denounce what they're doing to our market today and how they're injuring our producers on COOL. So I was kind of hoping you guys would say, “We're sorry we were there. We're sorry that we betrayed the Canadian farmers, sorry that we actually went there and gave legitimacy to an organization that doesn't have any ground to stand on within the more progressive cattle circles within North America.”

Now the one thing we have to realize is that when you talk about country-of-origin labelling, as a producer—and I know when I chaired this committee, and the committee travelled down to Washington to meet with our counterparts, we challenged the Americans that what they're doing is in complete violation of trade law—I'm not scared to label my product as Canadian. We know it's good. We know we can go out there and sell it, and that when consumers eat it, they will love it.

The problem is that it's adding cost to the overall production system, and it's being used as a hammer to decrease the value of our product rather than increase it and allow us to get more out of the marketplace. So this is a problem, because it's mandatory. This letter that Vilsack sent out to the industry has even created more concern out there, and it's leading prices to fall farther. So rather than talk about embracing country-of-origin labelling, we need to be talking about getting rid of the mandatory side of this, and if we can make some value-added opportunities through labelling, I think it's a better route to go.

You also talked about, and I also heard Mr. Jeffrey talk about, the better balance of production and consumption. I have a great concern. I agree with Mr. Fossen and Mr. Rosing in what they're saying, that we'd have to lose 60% of our producers; 60% of the cowherd has to disappear. That's not even taking into consideration the amount of dairy beef that we have in the industry that's not going to disappear because it's in the supply management system. So the question becomes, who leaves? Who do we take down to the average levels? Where does that number stand at, and what is that going to do to our rural communities?

Mr. Rosing said that in Selkirk—Interlake, in the riding that we have there, all we can do is run cattle. There isn't any other opportunity. If we have to cut down our numbers by 50% or more, we'll lose every small town. We'll lose our schools, we'll lose our hospitals, and the socio-economic impact will be too great to even be able to deal with it.

I want to turn my questions over to Mr. Fossen and Mr. Rosing to talk about how they think we should be moving ahead to stimulate our rural economies rather than have our ranching communities decimated.

Alex Atamanenko NDP British Columbia Southern Interior, BC

On a point of order--I hope this is a point of order. You made some pretty strong accusations, James. I think they should have a chance to reply to those accusations.

1 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Larry Miller

That isn't a point of order. He's correct.

1 p.m.

Board Member, National Farmers Union

Grant Robertson

You are going to allow an MP at a Commons event to question my patriotism and not give me an opportunity to respond?

1 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Larry Miller

I'm sorry, Mr. Robertson. You're here to answer questions.

It's his five minutes. A member can bring up a point of order, and that wasn't. It's his.

Mr. Fossen and Mr. Rosing, could you answer briefly, please, on this question?

1 p.m.

Director, Kettle River Stockmen's Association

Ed Fossen

I did touch on that in my report. I am very concerned about the impact of this country-of-origin labelling and how it will be implemented. I think it will impact heavily on the rural areas, particularly in our area. Compounding that, as you're probably all aware, our forest industry is being hard hit in our area, all over British Columbia, and again that's putting pressure on agriculture, ranchers in our area, who by the way were tied in to ranching and forestry. It would have a huge impact.

I say again that I would like a balanced implementation of the COOL.

1:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Larry Miller

Mr. Rosing, you have 30 to 45 seconds, if you could, please.

1:05 p.m.

Rancher, As an Individual

Henry Rosing

I hope I got my point across from our perspective, because we're so dependent on selling our product out of our province and out of the country. We really hope the government can focus on maintaining and expanding our export markets. Ms. Haley has alluded to that too.

It becomes a time factor. I relate it to the costs now. I agree with some of the concerns that NFU has too. We sometimes wonder what capital supply does or what packer concentration does, but to my knowledge, apart from the little spike during BSE and others, we are talking about cents per pound. I've tried to get across right now the basis between what the beef will fetch unimpeded and what I get. There is 14¢ that is all incorporated because of the restrictions in movements and regulations because of the interference in the market. If we could get our beef to go where it wants to go, we would see an immediate increase of 14¢ per pound. That would solve most of my problems.

1:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Larry Miller

Thank you, Mr. Rosing.

Mr. Shipley, for five minutes.

1:05 p.m.

Conservative

Bev Shipley Conservative Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thanks to the witnesses for appearing from across most of this country today. I think that's always good.

We've heard a diverse number of opinions about the cattle industry, everything from being very protective to having the opportunity for the industry to expand its borders in terms of export and how we might do that. I think that's good. One of the things our minister has done in following through on a number of the comments....

For a sustainable industry—and this is coming from the beef producers in my area—the belief is that if you're going to survive you have to have markets. One of the things, certainly as individuals, I think we often forget is that when you market an animal, the intent is to market 100% of that animal. If you were to take that live animal and dress it out, there are many parts of an animal that we, as Canadians, don't consider to be prime cuts of meat or products we would sit down at a table to. Yet in other countries those parts are considered delicatessens. People will pay very high premiums for those.

As you have seen, with our minister going to many countries in Asia, we're looking at how we can market that whole animal at a premium. I think Mr. Fossen, for example, has some comments on that.

The other part is the COOL challenge. We have differences of opinion on it. Certainly before Mr. Vilsack, the new secretary, came in, there were significant changes to the good for the Canadian cattle industry on COOL.

To Ms. Haley, I wonder if I could have a comment on that. In terms of COOL, was that an appropriate position we were in prior to Mr. Vilsack coming in?

I wrote down an interesting comment from the Farmers Union that banning cattle from packers has taken over. I agree with my colleague. I think there's always a concern. I don't want to lose the democracy that we have in this country, but we need to make sure we have instruments in place that will help protect us.

Anyway, I'm going to leave it to those two questions right now. If we have time, I'll come back.

1:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Larry Miller

Mr. Fossen.

1:10 p.m.

Director, Kettle River Stockmen's Association

Ed Fossen

I'll go first. That's a lot of questions, but anyhow—

1:10 p.m.

Conservative

Bev Shipley Conservative Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON

I think there were only three.

1:10 p.m.

Director, Kettle River Stockmen's Association

Ed Fossen

—I'm just going to concentrate.

With respect to the packing plant in Yakima, that was one emphasis. I'll give you an example. They would take cattle tongues--I'm not sure what they do with them in Canada, maybe make dog food--and ship them overseas. They get a very top dollar for that. And there are some advantages in hides--very much so. The large animal can probably be utilized better than in a small plant. I'm not sure what a small plant would do with tongues.

1:10 p.m.

Conservative

Bev Shipley Conservative Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON

On COOLs? Ms. Haley?

1:10 p.m.

Rancher, As an Individual

Carol Haley

I want to say this. We learned through the BSE experience that we don't have a lot of ability to influence U.S. government policy on a particular issue. We all had to work very hard to try to get the border open--even to removal of SRMs, and on and on. I understand we tried, but I don't believe we had an adequate plan several years ago when this issue first came up. While we may have wanted to believe they would be nice to us, the truth is that they're doing what they do.

We have to find other ways to deal with the realities. On one hand, you can continue to fight the issue. I have no problem with fighting the issue. But at the same time we're importing $1 billion worth of beef. Why is it not labelled? It's just a quid pro quo. At some point you must say this is the way you want it to be and maybe we need to play your game.