Agriculture Committee on Oct. 6th, 2011

[Alex Atamanenko, NDP, British Columbia Southern Interior, BC]

Good afternoon. Thank you for being with us today.

My first question is for Mr. Charlebois.

You mentioned food security and you mentioned GMOs, and as you probably know, I've done some work on this and a bit of research. You mentioned there's no evidence of a health risk to Canadians. At the same time, some of my research has found studies by, for example, Professor Séralini from France, who has done some research on Monsanto corn with rats and found some liver disorders. Apparently there were some court cases. Lately, apparently, he's got some access to information and found out that some of Monsanto's research was flawed.

A number of articles and a number of people are saying there isn't really any independent research. Often it is company-based and rubber-stamped by government.

Should we be using a precautionary principle? In other words, if there are studies like this popping up in parts of the world, shouldn't our authorities, together with universities and others, conduct truly independent studies to say once and for all that it's either good or it's bad?

My second question is about Enviropig, and I don't want to ramble too long because I also want to ask Dr. Brandle a question. There doesn't seem to be a consumer demand. There is some evidence that farmers might take a hit because of that. What studies have you done on health and the Enviropig?

[Dr. Sylvain Charlebois]

I'm not sure I understand the first question, but I'll do my best to respond.

Now, in terms of scientific research when it comes to GMOs specifically, there's still no hard evidence that would suggest that GMOs actually represent a risk to Canadian consumers. There have been all sorts of studies on both sides of the story suggesting otherwise. I've read some of them, and obviously you have. It doesn't mean that we shouldn't be transparent about it, but this goes back to my comment about basically catching consumers by surprise. When people were told, well, some of the products you eat come from cultivations that were genetically modified, all of a sudden we were talking about Frankenfoods and all of that. We shouldn't be surprised by that reaction.

The trans fats debate is the same thing. For 30 years we put trans fats into foods that consumers were buying without telling them what it was. It represented a health risk, in the end, so of course we came up with some harsh policies to get rid of that.

So it's always in reaction, but it's often supply-driven. I think we need to make sure that there's a better connection between the two so that we don't face that situation ever again.

One thing that's at risk is the trust of consumers. That's slowly eroding. We're doing some studies at Guelph. People trust our supply chain but less and less. Mad cow, Maple Leaf, trans fats, sodium--it goes on and on. The more we go through these sorts of situations, the more consumers will start really asking some hard questions that the industry, or government, may not be able to answer.

On the Enviropig specifically, I know the folks who are involved in the project, but I'm not specifically involved with the Enviropig issue, per se.

Claude, would you like to respond to the question?

[Claude Miville]

No. You know more than I do on this Enviropig.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Claude Miville]

You're at the University of Guelph.

[Alex Atamanenko, NDP, British Columbia Southern Interior, BC]

Unfortunately, gentlemen, I only have five minutes, so maybe I'll move on to Mr. Brandle. Thank you, by the way.

Mr. Brandle, you mentioned that we'll lose a generation of apple farmers, and we need more innovation. Some of us were on a committee study last year where we went to the Okanagan in B.C. We talked to fruit growers. They told us that the reason we're losing a generation of farmers is that we don't have a market. We don't have a market because we're scrambling. We're doing all these new varieties. The Americans, however, are pumping money into their apple industry and throwing the apples across the border.

Our guys can't compete. It's as simple as that.

Last year, at the Federation of Agriculture banquet, I sat next to one of the directors. He's probably the largest broccoli producer in Ontario. He said that he has a good year when there's a drought in the States. He has a good year when they have a bad year.

Does trade enter this? How do we maintain access to markets for products like canola, and expand them, and at the same time protect those in the horticulture industry?

[Dr. Jim Brandle]

It may be that the underlying issue is more complex than just trade. Trade is an easy thing to point at, but still, is your production system the most razor-sharp, efficient system in the world? Do you have the right varieties? And when you made that decision about the variety, did you ask any apple consumers what they wanted? How do you know you have the right varieties if you never asked those questions?

So I think it's more complex than that. There's a whole system thing. It's not just trade. Trade is an issue, but when it comes to cost production and production efficiency and production ability, I think we're just as good as anybody. So that isn't it.

Do we have it right? Do we have the right apple at the right price? I'm not so sure....

Trade may be an element of it, but I think there are other elements in the system that are also problematic. People like to buy Canadian apples, local apples. That's actually worth money. We could charge more for our apples internally if they were marketed the right way. So I think it's a little more complicated than just trade.

But I'm no expert, either. This is just my instinct, and we know that instincts can be wrong sometimes.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Frank Valeriote]

Thank you, Mr. Brandle.

Mr. Payne.

[LaVar Payne, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

To the witnesses, first, I'd like to thank all of you for coming out today. As my colleague indicated, you had only very short notice, so your presence is very much appreciated.

Monsieur Miville, I was interested in your comments about the clusters in research. In particular, you said you had 14 projects. I'm wondering if you could touch on a couple of those projects and tell us what they were, what success you had, what the issues were in terms of trying to make sure they moved forward and were successful, and then what inhibited those.

[Claude Miville]

Thank you very much.

I cannot say that it will be a success. What is important is that we selected those projects because we think that maybe some of those projects can be game changers. For example, one of these is an evolved automatic feeding system, an individual feeding system for pigs. It's already used for dairy production, but we think that with the technology we have, we could use it for swine production. If we succeed in this, we think we can lower the cost of production by at least $4 per hog. We think we can lower the level of phosphorus.

I'm going to continue in French, with your permission.

We think we can make significant environmental gains by reducing the levels of phosphorus and nitrogen excreted by hogs by 20% to 30%. That means that the environmental impact is major. However, this is a research project in which the findings will be known in three years. It's a project that can change the way we do things. The challenge we'll have, once feasibility has been demonstrated, will be to provide our farms with this equipment in order to start feeding hogs individually. So there are all the costs associated with that, but the economic gains are major. That's one example.

The other example concerns genomics. We know perfectly well that dazzling progress is being made in the field of genomics. Single nucleotide polymorphisms, SNPs, are parts of genes that can be identified on chips. We can now put 60,000 SNPs on a chip. These tools were not available 10 years ago. They have been developed for human medicine and are now used in milk. For pork, we believe that, if we can establish a proof of concept, we will be able to determine the quality of pork meat on a living animal based on the SNPs we find in its genes. It will therefore not be necessary to slaughter a hog to determine whether its meat is of high quality. That will enable us to identify hogs that have very high potential and meet quality standards.

These are quite important projects requiring efforts on everyone's part, but they are worth the risk. That is why we have accepted them and we hope the results will be positive. If they are, in three years, we will focus on commercialization or on ensuring that our producers are the first ones to use them.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Frank Valeriote]

You have another minute.

[LaVar Payne, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

Thank you.

I find that very interesting.

I'm assuming that all of the pork producers are behind these particular projects you're working on.

[Claude Miville]

Yes, always. What is important is that we ask to have private partners associated with us. In these projects, provincial associations of hog producers, Canadian producers of pure-bred hogs, are taking part in the genetics project. The western, Ontario and Quebec associations are taking part in this effort, and the genetics companies are doing so as well.

There is enough potential for everyone to interest various private partners in the industry. That's what is becoming interesting.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Frank Valeriote]

Thank you.

We'll go to Madame Raynault.

[Francine Raynault, NDP, Joliette, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you for accepting our invitation. My question is for the president of the Canola Council of Canada.

I'd like to make an incidental comment. Having been a farmer myself, I know that farmers rely to a considerable degree on the weather, soil drainage and so on.

With regard to canola, earlier you said that it is Canada's most valuable crop and that there were considerable benefits involved in using it, even in animal feed. Consequently, if animals are well fed, we, who eat those animals, will be in better health.

Here's what concerns me. Since this will be a valuable crop affording considerable benefits, will we be invaded by canola crops from other countries? How will you inform the public about the benefits of canola? Will you indicate them on labels? What did you think of?

[JoAnne Buth]

Is the question related to how we promote the characteristics of meal?

We have promotion programs where we partner with the government. I mentioned the agri-marketing program where we have a partnership with the federal government. Through that partnership program, industry puts in 50% of the funds and the government puts in 50%. We do promotion activities in various markets where canola meal can go. We also have an oil promotion program. As an example, most of our canola meal is produced in Canada. We don't have a livestock industry large enough to consume all of it. A large percentage of it goes to the California dairy industry, where the dairy industry fully recognizes the value of canola, because of the increase in milk production with canola meal in the ration of a dairy cow.

We've done the same in Mexico. We haven't focused on the dairy industry but rather on the pork and the poultry industry. We've done this with seminars. We've also recently completed some fairly large-scale demonstration projects for canola meal in China. This is due to the increasing dairy industry in China. We're trying to link the benefits of canola meal back to the importing of Canadian canola seed into China. We have a fairly focused promotion program in partnership with the government. We also do some promotion in Canada.

[Francine Raynault, NDP, Joliette, QC]

That's fine, thank you.

Do I have any time left?

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Frank Valeriote]

Yes.

[Francine Raynault, NDP, Joliette, QC]

My next question is for Mr. Brandle and it concerns our food sovereignty.

A little earlier you said we had to help the Campbell company of Canada obtain healthier, better food. How do you think we can help that company?

[Dr. Jim Brandle]

The way we plan on doing this is straightforward. Of course, there is not just one kind of mushroom. Even with white mushrooms, in the group of button mushrooms, there are literally tens of thousands of different types. The trick is simply to sort through all of that and find the most nutritious and use it as the base for soup or mushroom products. You can see the same concept in all sorts of things. Carrots vary significantly in their nutritional content. The question is, what's our advantage and what's the best carrot we should grow? We're looking for the one that's the most nutritious or the one that reacts best to the Canadian climate and becomes the most nutritious. It's a straightforward process: screening and understanding what's there and then using it as the base ingredient.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Frank Valeriote]

You have time for another short question.

[Francine Raynault, NDP, Joliette, QC]

Then I'm going to ask another question.

A little earlier, Mr. Charlebois said it was hard for people on fixed incomes or declining incomes to obtain healthy foods so they can stay healthy because pensions aren't indexed to the cost of living.

How could we help those people? What's your take on that?

[Dr. Sylvain Charlebois]

In fact, the food issue is multidimensional. That's what I'm trying to explain.

People who are finding it hard to make ends meet have to pay rent, a mortgage and all kinds of things.

As increasing numbers of people will be retiring in the next few years and we are having fewer and fewer children, the population supporting the population that is retired is declining. Consequently, the pyramid is gradually inverting.

Food will become an enormous issue in Canada. I know everyone is talking about food insecurity, but I believe it's the federal government's responsibility to consider a domestic national food security strategy as a result of those issues.

Food is a multidimensional issue.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Frank Valeriote]

Mr. Storseth.

[Brian Storseth, Conservative, Westlock—St. Paul, AB]

Thank you for recognizing me, Mr. Chair. I was afraid you forgot about me.

Thank you, ladies and gentlemen.