Agriculture Committee on Oct. 25th, 2012

[Alex Atamanenko, NDP, British Columbia Southern Interior, BC]

Thank you. I have half a minute.

I'll ask this question in regard to enforcement. The fines, according to Bill S-11, would increase. In the past the average fine was approximately 5% of the maximum fine for an indictable offence. In other words, they weren't enforced to the maximum.

My question is this: is there a desire now, in light of what has happened, to start enforcing these fines to the maximum, and do we have the personnel to do it?

[Gerry Ritz, Conservative, Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK]

Certainly we have the personnel to do it. That's what people on the front line do, backed up by management systems, right up through the region and then through to the national level. That said, we have assessed, or CFIA has assessed—

I keep saying “we”. It's almost as though I have Stockholm syndrome after the last six weeks. Forgive me for that.

CFIA enforces, with AMPs and other necessary items such as CARs that go up on the website, as a person.... There is public pressure on facilities and so on. There are number of fines. Someone said that we've never levied fines and so on. We can make sure that you get the full list of what we've done over the last few years, should you want to see that, because it is quite extensive with respect to who has been fined and who has been charged and so forth.

We delist American plants at the same level as they have delisted ours, usually for the same types of reasons. It is because of cleanliness and things like that.

This idea that somehow they come up and adjudicate us much more harshly than we adjudicate them is absolutely not true. Again, we can make available to you the requests we've left with American plants and those we've delisted over the last number of years. Should you want to see that, we'd be happy to do that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Thank you, and if you choose to do that, it would be through the chair.

Mr. Richards is next.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Wild Rose, AB]

Thank you.

Thank you, Minister, for being here today. While you're here, I want to publicly, on behalf of the farmers in my riding, thank you for your hard work. I know that when I go out to the farms in my area, all I hear is praise for the good work you've done in allowing them marketing choice through the changes to the Canadian Wheat Board, in the trade deals you've worked so hard on to open up more markets for them, and certainly in the job you're doing handling the XL Foods situation.

I just wanted to pass that along. I hear time and time again from my farmers about the great work you're doing. Thank you very much for that. Thank you for being here today.

I'll get to the bill at hand. I want to ask you about the traceability provisions in the bill. I see that there are proposed amendments to the Health of Animals Act. We're looking at expanding our existing traceability requirements. It looks like the proposed amendments, basically, would provide the groundwork for a national livestock traceability system in Canada.

Can you elaborate a bit on the need for traceability? I'm sure that you've had consultations and discussions. I would like to hear some of the comments from stakeholders and the provincial governments on this initiative.

[Gerry Ritz, Conservative, Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK]

There's growing support, right from the farm gate through industry, for traceability. More and more consumers in Canada and around the world are asking to know where the product came from and how it was handled.

I know that in Japan, you can take your cellphone camera and take a picture of the bar code, and it will bring up the farm where that pork or whatever was raised. It will show you a picture of the farmer hugging the pig. It's an unbelievable system. It's a little bit over the top for what most people require, but they've gone to that extent because of some food situations they've had over time.

I know that at the Senate hearings, there was some concern from the cattlemen, but I am here to assure them, as I have done personally in my meetings with them on the XL crisis, that the Health of Animals Act takes precedence on the farm and on the ranch. Bill S-11 only comes into play as that animal is loaded and moved on to the next stage for backgrounding, feedlot, processing, or whatever it is. They have that ability.

Farmers were concerned that somehow we were going to develop a cow registry. We had this huge computer system from a gun registry that went nuts, so they figured that we should put it back to work. I mean, they don't figure we should put it back to work. I'm here to tell you that this is not going to happen. We got rid of that gun registry. We're not going to have a cow registry.

What we are seeking to do is have traceability. As I said in response to another question, if something shows up at a processing facility or in a feedlot in the form of an ill or sickened animal, we can trace it back to the farm or ranch it came from. There are specifically reportable instances, such as tuberculosis and BSE. To maintain our status on the BSE scale internationally, we have to test so many animals a year. We do that. It has to be done at slaughter. You can't do a brain examination on a cow and send it back out to the pasture.

All these types of things are done. That's all kept. That's all databased. We need to be able to go back to the farm if there is a problem. Every once in a while that does happen, and we're able to go back and quarantine that farm should there be something like TB and so forth.

That's the whole concept. Farmers are also poised to make use of genetics and feed regimens and so on to put out a superior product. The plants now have the ability to database meat. For example, if there's a side of beef that is perfectly marbled and is going to get extra dollars in a premium market like Japan or Korea, we want more of that. Who produced that beef? We can go back now, through a program called BIXS, to that producer—Cargill or XL in Guelph, or wherever it is—and say, “Give me 200 more head of that, because I have an order from Korea.”

That's the nature of this. It's to build a more vibrant, effective system that works to the benefit of everybody. It provides safer food and also the ability of farmers to produce more of what they're doing for a specific market.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Wild Rose, AB]

Excellent. Thank you, Minister, it's good news to hear that. It sounds as though it supports the great work you've been doing in opening up markets. When we can find ways to bring that product to market, that's also—

[Gerry Ritz, Conservative, Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK]

We have Japan doing an analysis right now, based on science, moving from the 21-month animal that they allow in now up to the 30-month. That's huge. That's the difference of some $80 million or $90 million to Canadian ranchers.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Wild Rose, AB]

Good. Excellent. Thank you, Minister.

I wanted to bring up the issue of food imports. Safe food is another area that Canadians want to know about. They want to know we're doing all we can to ensure that the food being brought into the country is safe.

Could you tell us some of the things we're doing, and have done, to make sure we're keeping bad food imports out of Canada?

[Gerry Ritz, Conservative, Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK]

An amazing statistic that most Canadians never really know is that there are 100 million meals served in Canada every day. It's just an astounding number, considering the amount of foodstuff it takes and the diversity of the food that people are demanding in Canada.

We export between 50% and 85% of certain commodities, but we also import 50% of our domestic consumption. That is a tremendous workload for the professionals at CFIA, who are trying to make sure that what's going out is safe and what's coming in is safe. They do a tremendous job at that by working with other countries to do audits of facilities around the world. They're making sure that what we're importing from the U.S., Australia, or wherever is safe and comes into this country as safe product.

They also do what I talked about—border blitzes. They have a regime that looks at the possible worst cases, and they do analyses of that.

We're never as concerned about a bulk commodity coming in, like a grain, as we are about a processed meat product. You put your emphasis on the things that could create the most problems. They constantly strive to do a better job at that.

That's why we, as government, continue to fund them and continue to make sure they have the ability to get that important job done. We do it through a regulatory regime and by providing the monetary and staffing capacity.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Thank you.

Mr. Rafferty is next.

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Thank you, Chair, and my thanks to everyone for being here today.

On liability and fines, there is movement in this bill. That's welcomed. That's certainly a good thing. However, in the case of proven negligence, particularly when there are mistruths or deaths involved, I wonder if the concept of unlimited liability was ever considered for this bill, given that the intention is not to bankrupt companies.

Minister, what do you personally think of that concept? Could it help to ensure adherence to rules and regulations?

[Gerry Ritz, Conservative, Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK]

I think it's very important, Mr. Rafferty.

There are two avenues. There are the AMPs, which are heightened in this bill. There's also the ability in this bill for a judgmental system that would actually go beyond the $5 million. That's there, and it's not capped. If a judge found criminal intent, he could go beyond the $5 million and make that recommendation.

On the other side, you have civil or common law, in whatever province. They can to go to that company and bring a class action suit. Consumers, consumer groups, or a lawyer will take everybody to court, and those actions are usually uncapped. In the case of XL, there was a negotiated settlement, some $27 million or $28 million, between XL and the people affected.

There are those two streams.

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Thank you, Minister.

In the bill, I wondered if unlimited liability was actually spelled out. I wonder if that would create some kind of deterrence.

[Gerry Ritz, Conservative, Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK]

Well, Neil can show you the exact clause where that's spelled out, if you'd like.

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Okay. I'll ask him later, after you're gone. We only have you for an hour, Minister.

[Gerry Ritz, Conservative, Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK]

He's got it circled.

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Yes, okay.

As you know, Minister, the prairies begin in the west part of my riding. We have a lot of beef farmers. A few years ago, we had a small abattoir approved, and it's up and running, but no federal inspection is available. We have three border crossings right in cattle country, right into Minnesota.

There's a general feeling among cattle farmers in my area that you as the minister, and the government, really only care about large packers, large producers, and not small ones—

[Gerry Ritz, Conservative, Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK]

That's actually not true, Mr. Rafferty—

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Just let me finish. Are there any plans, in terms of federal inspection, to help these smaller abattoirs get their meat across the border and across provincial borders? That would be—

[Gerry Ritz, Conservative, Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK]

Yes. Sure—

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

—very helpful, because the trend is towards eating local. If you can eat local, you can know exactly where that meat comes from, and I think that some of the things that we were talking about could be avoided.

[Gerry Ritz, Conservative, Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK]

We've actually done that. Some three years ago Agriculture Canada, working with provincial authorities and the CFIA, had what we called a “meat pilot”.

There were 19 provincially regulated facilities across Canada that took us up on that challenge. We set aside some moneys to help them get up to a federal level, and I think about 11 will make it. They will become federally listed, although provincially regulated, and will be able to trade interprovincially and so on, so we've done exactly what you're talking about. We wanted to see an interprovincial movement of meats done with a provincial facility, but inspected at the federal level.

When we talked about—

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

I don't want to interrupt, but I have one more question. I don't know how much time I have—

[Gerry Ritz, Conservative, Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK]

Well, I had a great answer.

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

I'll catch you later on that answer.