Agriculture Committee on Dec. 10th, 2013

[The Chair, Conservative, Bev Shipley]

I'd like to call the meeting to order. Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), our study is on the Canada-European Union comprehensive economic and trade agreement, better known as CETA, and its effect on the Canadian agriculture sector. This is meeting 11.

I want to welcome our witnesses.

From the Canadian Aquaculture Industry Alliance, we have Ruth Salmon, executive director.

From the Canadian Vintners Association, we have Dan Paszkowski, president and chief executive officer.

From Spirits Canada, we have Jan Westcott, president and CEO, along with C.J. Helie, executive vice-president.

I will start off with Ms. Salmon. You have eight minutes.

[Ruth Salmon, Executive Director, Canadian Aquaculture Industry Alliance]

Thank you very much for the invitation.

I'll start out with a bit of a description of what our association is. We're the national industry association that represents the interests of Canadian seafood farmers across Canada, feed companies and suppliers, as well as provincial finfish and shellfish aquaculture associations. Most of my comments this afternoon are going to be focused on farmed seafood, but I thought it would be helpful to give the committee an overview of the EU market for Canadian seafood to start out with.

The EU is the largest seafood import market in the world and it's a growing market. Canadian fish and seafood exports to the EU are currently about $400 million. These exports have attracted an average tariff of 11%, with some up to 25%, making access obviously quite difficult. With CETA, 96% of tariff lines will become duty free immediately and others will be duty free within seven years.

The new free trade agreement will open up large new opportunities for seafood, including farmed seafood.

Let's take a look at the current situation analysis for farmed seafood products exported to the EU. With limited potential to increase farmed seafood production right now in Canada, any new markets require diverting products from existing markets. When you add the high tariff rates to the supply limitation, you can see why the EU has not been a priority export market to date. However, we have had some limited opportunity with high-value niche products, such as live oysters, value-added mussels, caviar, and farmed sablefish. This is just a list of products that we currently export to the EU. I won't go over them because of time.

What are the near-term opportunities? When CETA is implemented those companies that are doing business in the EU now will be definitely looking to expand. While competition in seafood is very intense, the demand for seafood is growing, particularly in the EU. Canada has a reputation for consistent high-quality farmed seafood products, so that's a very good foundation. However, if the Canadian industry is allowed to grow, the EU will become a natural new market for high-end value-added farmed seafood products. This will also result in new jobs here in Canada, as value-added products require additional labour.

Let's look at the global trends and see where farmed seafood fits in. The global population, as we know, will exceed nine billion by 2030. We also know that land and freshwater resources are becoming scarce for increased food production. Aquaculture is the fastest growing food industry in the world, with an annual growth rate of 6% to 7% per year. With that growing population and the increasing awareness of health benefits of seafood, it gives us a very strong market demand for farmed seafood now and into the future.

I'll turn to the current situation for aquaculture in Canada today. We're valued at $2.1 billion. We employ 14,500 full-time workers, particularly in rural and coastal communities. We farm in every province as well as Yukon. We're one-third of the total value of Canada's fisheries production, and we export certainly the majority of what we produce.

Canada has the potential, however, to do so much more. Canadian aquaculture grew rapidly from the early 1980s to the end of the 1990s, but since that time, even considering pockets of growth in some areas of the country, overall industry growth has basically been stagnant, as you can see on the slide. Adding to that, despite our enormous competitive advantages, Canada's share of the world's farmed fish market has fallen by 40% during the past decade. Canada now only accounts for 0.2% of global aquaculture production. This stagnation has taken place while other producers in New Zealand, Norway, Scotland, and Chile have raced ahead. As a result, certainly Canada is missing an opportunity, and at a time when there is a such a huge demand for food globally, it's a missed opportunity for the world.

The natural question is why have we flatlined? The principal challenge confronting our sector is the complicated set of regulations that restrict growth and limit investment. Our industry is regulated by the Fisheries Act, which is a wildlife management act. It was never meant for an innovative food production sector like aquaculture. This is a piece of legislation that dates back to Confederation when commercial aquaculture in Canada didn't even exist.

In addition, rapid development of the sector in the 1980s and 1990s resulted in a myriad of federal, provincial, and local regulations, many of them implemented before commercial aquaculture was even a significant activity.

As a result of this patchwork approach, many of these policies and regulations are reactive and inefficient. Together they create an overarching policy framework that retards competitiveness, obscures certainty, and stalls growth.

I need to stress that the industry is not looking for less regulation, just more efficient regulation. Discussion about the need for a new regulatory and legislative framework is not new. Numerous reviews, reports, and studies have been done over the past 30 years that highlight the inappropriate legislative, regulatory, and policy environment that exists in Canada. Most recently, the Conference Board of Canada released a report on how to improve the economic viability of Canada's seafood industries. In that report they also recommended an aquaculture act.

This next slide is a result of discussions with our members, both finfish and shellfish, who are interested in investing and growing their aquaculture businesses in the short, medium, and longer term. Projected growth is based on the assumption that we will achieve improvements to the regulatory, legislative, and policy environment. This projected growth not only positively impacts employment and economic activity, as you can see, for rural and coastal communities, but also allows us to capitalize on trade agreements such as CETA.

In summary, our association certainly supports and applauds the federal government with respect to CETA. However, we require increased growth and competitiveness to take significant advantage of this market opportunity. Aquaculture in Canada offers tremendous opportunities. Working together we can renew a vibrant aquaculture industry in Canada and unlock the full range of economic, environmental, and public health benefits that flow from a growing farmed seafood sector. That work together will require regulatory reform, a national aquaculture act, and vision for growth.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bev Shipley]

Thank you very much, Ms. Salmon, for your presentation.

Now I'll move to Mr. Paszkowski, from the Canadian Vintners Association, for seven or eight minutes, please.

Thank you.

[Dan Paszkowski, President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Vintners Association]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, for the opportunity to provide the Canadian wine industry's perspectives on CETA and discuss opportunities to take full advantage of this important agreement.

As the national voice of the Canadian wine industry, CVA membership accounts for more than 90% of domestic wine produced and sold across Canada. CVA members are engaged in the entire value chain, from grape growing and harvesting to wine production, retail, research, and tourism.

We produce two types of wine products, 100% Canadian wines, namely, product of Canada and VQA wines, as well as international Canadian blended wines, better known as ICB. Both wine categories are fundamental to the future success of Canadian wineries and grape growers.

Our industry is made up of 500 wineries and 1,600 grape growers, supporting the employment of 31,000 Canadians and contributing $1.2 billion in wages. Our national economic study released in March of this year confirmed that the Canadian wine industry contributes $6.8 billion to the national economy annually, broken out to $3.7 billion from our 100% Canadian wine business and $3.1 billion generated by our ICB wine business.

It may be surprising to learn that Canada is the third fastest growing wine market in the world, with consumption growing three times faster than the global average, and yet, with more and more Canadians choosing wine as their beverage of choice, Canadian wines represent a mere 30% domestic market share.

Wine is Europe's largest value-added agricultural export to Canada, and enjoys significant market access through provincial and territorial liquor board systems.

I'll give you a snapshot of EU wine sales: 190 million litres valued at just over $1 billion; 52% of total import value; 50% of import volume; and Italy, France, and Spain alone represent 91% of EU wine imports and three of the top five importing countries to Canada.

By comparison, roughly 50 Canadian wineries are presently involved in international business, with a primary focus in the U.S., Asia, and Europe. Total wine exports from Canada are valued at $41 million on 26 million litres of wine. Clearly we have a major wine trade imbalance with Europe, with exports of 403,000 litres valued at $2 million.

Unlike other agricultural sectors, Canada negotiated and signed a Canada-EU wine and spirits agreement in 2004, which will be incorporated into the new CETA. As a result, the majority of trade issues have already been negotiated, including mutual recognition of wine-making practices; protection of geographical indications; loss of common wine names, such as Chablis, champagne, port, and sherry, which we're going to lose in the next two weeks; wine certification; and an ice wine definition.

With most tariffs on EU wines entering Canada having been reduced or eliminated in 2008-09, the ratification of CETA will remove all remaining tariff lines ranging from 2¢ to 5¢ per litre, valued at approximately $4.5 million, according to federal officials. Removal of EU import tariffs on Canadian exports range from 19¢ to 45¢ per litre, providing a benefit of roughly $200,000.

CETA will also remove all import tariffs on viticulture and winery equipment entering Canada, such as tanks, harvesters, bottles, etc., thus reducing the cost of equipment imported from Europe.

Some liquor board cost-of-service differential calculations, primarily in Ontario, will have to be changed from an ad valorem to a flat fee schedule. This calculation is the difference between liquor board markups on domestic and imported wines, which only permit the recovery of higher costs of bringing wine to market. The Canadian wine industry remains hopeful that these changes will be revenue neutral and not result in any additional costs passed on to Canadian wineries.

CETA will also continue to permit private winery retail stores that exist in Ontario and British Columbia, but the number of stores will be capped at a maximum of 292 stores in Ontario and 60 stores in British Columbia.

Under CETA, export subsidies will no longer be permitted. Support for wine promotion will be permitted unless it can be proven that the level of support is causing a negative impact on domestic wine producers.

The Canadian wine industry supports CETA and free trade agreements in general. We believe that access to 500 million European consumers will enhance our export interests. In addition, anticipated domestic savings of $1,000 per Canadian resulting from CETA will support greater domestic buying power.

While CETA will provide greater export access for Canadian wines over time, the sheer size of EU wine sales in Canada, together with improved market access, tariff elimination, potential for lower cost of service, and attractive Canadian wine market will provide greater economic benefits to EU producers.

It is important to note that between 2000 and 2012, roughly 80% of wine sales growth in Canada came from imported wines. While wine exports are an important part of our future, we cannot ignore that CETA has the potential to further expand EU imports in a growing Canadian wine market.

To take full advantage of this agreement and build market share in both our premium and value priced categories, we require support of federal government policy to assist our sector become more competitive and increase our wine sales in both Canada and Europe.

We ask members of the committee to support the following recommendations.

First, after signing the CETA in principle, the EU announced renewal of its wine industry promotion program. Over the next five years, European wine producers will benefit from $38 million per year in European Commission support, matched by industry and/or member states, to promote wine sales at home and abroad. In support of Canadian wine industry growth, the federal government should enhance both domestic and export market promotion beyond the current $220,000 available through the Growing Forward 2 agri-marketing program.

European Union wines own a 50% market share in Canada, with 40% of wines sold below $10 per bottle. The federal government should level the playing field for Canadian grapes and expand the current excise duty exemption beyond 100% Canadian wines to include any Canadian grape content used in wines sold in Canada.

In Europe, wines labelled “product of France” must be made wholly from French grapes. In support of fairness, the federal government should amend the federal guide to food labelling and advertising, which currently permits a minimum 75% French grape content to use “product of France”, when “product of Canada” wines require 100% Canadian wine content.

Blended wines sold in Europe are labelled “blend of wines from different countries of the European Community”, or alternatively, “blend of wines from different countries outside the European Community”. In support of consistency with other food products sold in Canada, including the “made in Canada from imported and domestic ingredients”, we recommend that blended wines be designated “blended in Canada from imported and domestic wines”.

Finally, wines sold within the EU must adhere to an established list of regulated container shapes and sizes. In support of Canadian competitiveness, the federal government should maintain, rather than repeal, the existing container size regulations for wines sold in Canada.

In conclusion, we believe that CETA can provide economic benefits and, with some government support, we can take full advantage of this agreement and grow Canada's wine industry from a $6.8 billion to a $10 billion economic engine.

Thank you for your time, and I look forward to any questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bev Shipley]

Thank you very much for your presentation.

Now we'll move to Spirits Canada and Mr. Westcott for eight minutes.

[Jan Westcott, President and Chief Executive Officer, Spirits Canada]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'm Jan Westcott, and this is my colleague, C.J. Helie.

Before I address the topic on today's agenda, I'd like to extend our appreciation to the committee for its recommendation in its food supply chain report to address the discrimination against spirits under the federal Importation of Intoxicating Liquors Act, and the Excise Act. Thank you. The committee's support is greatly appreciated.

We're pleased to appear today in support of the Canada-European Union comprehensive economic and trade agreement, CETA.

Spirits Canada is the only national organization representing the interests of Canadian spirits manufacturers, exporters, and consumers. We are primary manufacturers. We source locally grown cereals such as barley, corn, rye, and wheat, and transform them into high value-added consumer products.

We are tied directly to the farming community. Many of our companies have decades-old relationships with local farming families to grow specific commodities to very exacting standards. Companies are seeking the best of the best in order to produce the highest quality spirits.

Spirits annually represent more than 65% of all Canadian beverage alcohol international exports, significantly more than beer, cider, and wine exports combined. The total export of spirits during calendar 2012 were worth over half a billion dollars, and fortunately, were 33% greater in value in 2012 than in 2008.

The industry is founded on our signature products of Canadian whisky and Canadian rye whisky, but we produce and market a full range of spirits products, including gin, rum, vodka, liqueurs, and ready-to-drink products. In fact, the value of Canadian liqueurs alone exported internationally is almost twice the value of all of the Canadian wine exports last year.

Many Canadian spirits manufacturers are investing heavily to expand their exports, and these expensive investments are showing concrete results. The industry's international exports for the first nine months of 2013 are 20% higher than last year. Canadian spirits manufacturers would be considered relatively small-scale operators compared to some of our competitors in the scotch and bourbon industries, and we're certainly restrained by lower profitability in our home market, but we tend to punch quite a bit above our weight class internationally.

Canadian spirits brands have a great reputation internationally for quality and authenticity. Our members have invested heavily in recent years in developing new brands, premium brand extensions, and new packaging, as well as enhancing our productivity.

Canadian spirits offer tremendous potential for growth both here at home and abroad, and CETA in particular offers another important step in the evolution of the bilateral alcohol trade between Canada and Europe.

CETA builds on the previous 2004 wine and spirits agreement, which Dan mentioned, and will provide further positive forward momentum. I'd like to highlight for members four key sector specific initiatives within CETA that will be beneficial to Canada.

First, spirits consumers in this country will benefit from the elimination of remaining import tariffs.

Second, most of the growth in the market these days is in the premium and super premium end of the business. People in fact are drinking less, but they're drinking better quality materials. These premium brands will benefit from the conversion of the liquor board service fees from the ad valorem that Dan mentioned, a basis that penalizes higher value products to a new flat rate volume-based price structure.

Third, Canadian spirit manufacturers now will also be able to source spirits in bulk from the European Union and bottle them here in Canada, providing greater flexibility and potential cost efficiencies to the Canadian business, as well as additional value-added activities here in Canada for certain companies.

Finally, CETA will ensure greater transparency and marketplace disciplines in regard to state trading enterprises engaged in various aspects of liquor importation distribution details, or as they're more commonly known, liquor boards.

Last year's spirits represented over 80% of all Canadian beverage alcohol imported by the 27-member state EU. Our principal current markets in Europe include France, Germany, Finland, Spain, Sweden, and the U.K. These six countries represent the majority of our sales. That said, there are great growth opportunities for us in many EU states, including the Czech Republic, Estonia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, and Slovenia, as these eastern European consumers migrate, as we're seeing across the world, from vodka to brown spirits, particularly whiskies.

Some trade critics are concerned that free trade agreements encourage offshore production in lower cost countries. This concern does not apply to spirits. Under Canadian law, all Canadian whiskies must be mashed, fermented, distilled, and matured in Canada.

More importantly, fresh and pure Canadian water and Canadian-grown premium barley, corn, rye, and wheat are essential to creating the unique taste profiles of our loved iconic brands, brands that in a number of cases have been produced and sold continuously for over 150 years, such as Canadian Club and Wiser's, among others.

The growth in international exports of Canadian spirits translates directly into more jobs here in Canada on Canadian farms, in Canadian spirits facilities, and in hundreds of small and medium-size businesses that serve and support our production and maturation facilities.

We'd like to extend our appreciation to the Canadian government and ministers Ritz and Fast for their leadership through the negotiation, as well as to Canadian trade officials. The bilateral communications that took place between industry and Agriculture and Agri-Food trade officials were really excellent, and we felt very well informed throughout the various stages of the negotiations.

I'd also like to recall for committee members the Canadian spirits industry request for a modest reduction in the excise rate per litre of absolute alcohol in spirits excise duties. The impact of the 2006 excise rate changes has dramatically escalated the federal fiscal burden on spirits versus those of our direct competitors.

Such a modest decrease in our tax load is a critical precursor to the industry taking full advantage of new emerging trade opportunities that are being created through the government's trade agenda and for us to reach the full potential of the Canadian spirits industry.

Thank you very much for your time.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bev Shipley]

Thank you to all of the witnesses for the great presentations.

Now we'll turn to our committee members.

We'll start off with Madame Raynault. You have five minutes, please.

[Francine Raynault, NDP, Joliette, QC]

Thank you Mr. Chairman.

My question is for the wine producers.

As you may know, tobacco was extensively grown on Quebec land for decades, especially in the Saint-Thomas area, in Joliette. Domaine Le Mernois was established by people who used to grow tobacco, but it is now a vineyard. It would not be easy for them to leave, because they invested heavily in the business. They make a red wine they named Terratabac—it is delicious and a very good port as well. They are still a small-scale winery. The Joliette-Lanaudière Christmas markets were held on the weekend, and I did some shopping, of course.

With free trade, more European products will be entering Canada. What problems will this cause to our young producers?

[Dan Paszkowski]

First of all, it's not unique that tobacco country has gone to wine. The same thing happened in southwestern Ontario. A significant amount of farmland has turned over to wine. One of the challenges in that regard is under the current Income Tax Act. If you shift from a Chardonnay to a Merlot, you can write off all of your costs to transfer, but if you're shifting from tobacco, cherries, or peaches into a different agricultural product, you're not allowed to write off any of your additional cost to move to a new, higher value-added viable product, which is a challenge internally.

In terms of the Canada-EU agreement, I don't see that there's going to be any significant impact in terms of competitiveness. We compete right now with some of the best in the world. The Europeans already have 50% of our market. Taking 2¢ to 5¢ off in tariff per litre won't amount to a significant amount. The fact that we are producing a high-quality international product such as you have identified is what it takes to survive.

What we do need is some type of support, like the Europeans provide to their industry, in terms of domestic promotion, to be able to promote our products within Canada. For the first time this year, Growing Forward 2 has provided that type of funding. That's something we have to take greater advantage of, and hopefully, more funding will be available to be able to compete with the products that will be entering into Canada.

There are great opportunities for this country. We only own 30% of our market. Any wine-producing market around the world owns 90%, 95%, or even 99% of its market. There are significant opportunities here. A little bit of support to be able to capture the domestic market would help us grow our competitiveness and enable us to launch into the export market. For those smaller companies, the 50 or so companies I mentioned already, the reduction in tariffs in Europe will definitely help them enter into that marketplace.

Thank you.

[Francine Raynault, NDP, Joliette, QC]

Do we export a significant volume of Canadian wine to Europe at this time?

How does this amount compare with the volume of European wine imports?

Are tariff barriers the only factor preventing us from breaking into the European market?

[Dan Paszkowski]

As I mentioned, there is a significant imbalance in trade. We're looking at 190 million litres valued at $1 billion entering into Canada, and we're exporting under 500,000 litres of wine to Europe, valued at about $2 million.

The challenge with wine in Europe is that they're superpowers in wine production. They're exporting all around the world because they produce more than they can consume. We look for niche markets within the European marketplace such as London in the U.K., and we're using our ice wine in certain parts of Europe to access those markets.

Our focus has not been traditionally on wine-producing countries. It's been on non-wine-producing countries within the European Union. We see opportunities there, but we also see great opportunities within Canada that we can't close our eyes to. As the third fastest growing wine market in the world, not only the Europeans but every wine-producing country around the world has its eyes on Canada as an attractive market. There are great opportunities domestically as well as internationally.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bev Shipley]

Thank you very much, Madame Raynault.

Now we go to Mr. Lemieux.

[Pierre Lemieux, Conservative, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Our wineries win wine competitions in Europe. When I look at countries that export to Canada, their presence in Canada changes over time. There was a time when a country might not have had much presence in our market, but it has more today, or the other way around. It is a shifting landscape.

Given CETA and what you have in place that might very well become a chapter of CETA, do you see our wine industry trying to exploit an opportunity in Europe, or do you see it focusing more on the market at home?

[Dan Paszkowski]

We have great opportunities at home, and it's very important that we take advantage of the domestic opportunities. If we don't, the Europeans will.

Exporting to Europe will happen. Those exports will grow, but the margins have to be there. If the margins are greater in Canada than they are in London, it makes more sense to sell your product in British Columbia or Ontario. That's going to be number one. Not all companies will be able to enter into the export market, because of the margin difference.

If you want to get an international reputation, as is very important for our industry, we have to export. We have to get access to different markets and get that type of exposure. We are winning international awards for the best Chardonnay in the world, the best Pinot Noir in the world, the best Shiraz in the world, but we have to let people know that. That will not only support our export industry; it's going to support our tourism industry. We have three million tourists coming through our wineries every year. That's a significant number of people, and not all of them are Canadian. That also will benefit exports over time as those tourists go back home and want to share that unique experience with their friends.

[Pierre Lemieux, Conservative, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Thank you for that. That's a good answer. It looks in both directions at the same time, but looking to exploit Europe is perhaps more of an opportunity in the future.

There's a clause in CETA that neither Canada nor the EU will be allowed export subsidies. We've had groups here that have complained that the EU heavily subsidizes its agricultural sector. Do you see this as a game changer? Is it a commonly held perception in our wine industry that their wine industry is heavily subsidized? Would subsidized pricing cause this to be a game changer?

[Dan Paszkowski]

This is always mentioned by people within our industry. In our discussions with wine producers around the world, we hear that the European Union wine industry is heavily subsidized. Unfortunately, they're able to provide support to their producers in a way that is very difficult to challenge under international trade rules at the WTO. Their transparency is such that they can bury things deeper at the member state level, and therefore their industry gets significant support. It's difficult for anybody in the world to identify some of those programs as being non-compliant under international trade rules.

[Pierre Lemieux, Conservative, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Right, but I think CETA would put in place a process, would it not? There might be a process lacking right now, for example. If there is a contravention against the use of export subsidies, and there's a process in place for complaints to be made and adjudicated, I would imagine that would be a good thing for our wine industry, particularly if our wine industry feels that their wine industry is subsidized.

[Dan Paszkowski]

Absolutely. As I mentioned, in November the EU government announced $38 million per year in terms of promotion of their wines, domestically and around the world. You match that and that's $74 million. If we can identify that those programs are having a detrimental impact on our industry, CETA will provide the ability to challenge that.

[Pierre Lemieux, Conservative, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Let me ask a question, too, just to compare spirits to wine. Spirits seem to have a strong bottom line when it comes to exporting to the EU. I think it was half a billion dollars, or was that all exports maybe?

[Jan Westcott]

That's all exports.

[Pierre Lemieux, Conservative, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

That's all exports, okay. The wine was, I think, 26 million litres valued at $41 million. There's a huge difference here, yet they're both alcoholic beverages. Are there any lessons that one industry can learn from the other to help exploit markets abroad?

I'm not sure who might want to answer that.

[Jan Westcott]

I guess the spirits industry has been a global business for a long time. Spirits are one of the world's oldest traded commodities. In fact, most government revenue prior to the discovery of things like income tax and other forms of taxation was in fact in the form of customs duties on spirits moving across borders. There's a long history of trade in spirits internationally. A strong wine trade has existed for a long time in Europe, essentially between England and France. The traditions in spirits are quite different. Our products don't go bad. They can sustain great travel, as many of you will know on both sides of the table.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[Jan Westcott]

They can sustain travel and they hold their value. In fact, one of the reasons spirits were produced originally was that they held the farm community value in a product over long periods.

I think the critical thing we would say is that Canada is doing the right thing in opening up the opportunities in other markets. Where we have a weakness in this country is that you have to be able to fund the development of those markets no matter where they are, whether that's the United States, Europe, or the east. The industry has to have the dollars in its jeans to be able to do that.

We have the highest beverage alcohol taxes in the world, and on spirits, literally the highest. I don't argue with that, because we raise public revenues for lots of good things, but it does make it difficult for industry to go out and seize these opportunities as deals like CETA come forward and create that not perfect but more level playing field, so that when we go in there we know that our Canadian whiskies are getting treatment relatively equal to that given local spirits that may be produced.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bev Shipley]

We'll move to Mr. Eyking, please, for five minutes.