Evidence of meeting #55 for Agriculture and Agri-Food in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was provinces.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Corlena Patterson  Executive Director, Canadian Sheep Federation
Ron Bonnett  President, Canadian Federation of Agriculture
Rory McAlpine  Senior Vice-President, Government and Industry Relations, Maple Leaf Foods Inc.
Tyler Bjornson  President, Canada Grains Council

4:15 p.m.

Executive Director, Canadian Sheep Federation

Corlena Patterson

Thank you.

I'll just pick up where I left off, and again I apologize. Brevity has never been my forte in any way, shape, or form, so I'll try to do it faster.

What we would like to see and what we have been working toward is finding some revisions to the temporary foreign worker program that help access that seasonally very specific skilled labour, but that isn't the only solution. Total reform of that program won't help do it.

The other part is how we find skilled workers, how we train skilled workers, how we invest in them, and how we get them interested in the sector. That, I think, will continue to be a challenge because certainly there are so many other opportunities out there. And farming isn't always the highest paying or the easiest of those, but there certainly are people interested in doing it.

We've worked with the Canadian Agricultural Human Resource Council in developing an occupational standard for the sheep sector. We do that not only to define what we need as an industry for different levels of employees, but we're hoping that feeds into educating and training at a career level for those who have an interest but are not sure where to get started or how to get started.

I have to throw this out here, being from this area, that it's a little disappointing to see things like agricultural career colleges being closed, not ones that provide bachelor's and master's programs—not that there's anything wrong with those; I have a couple of those—but on-the-ground, hands-on, skilled certificate-level programs. How do we train that sector if we don't have that educational background in place?

So part of our piece, working with CAHRC, is to create some descriptions of what the jobs are in the hope that it feeds into academic institutions and training institutions, to say, “If you're interested in this sector, this is what you need to know, and not only what you need to know but what the opportunities are”.

There is not just fieldwork. There's management, supervisory, industry-related, spin-off sectors to that. We need to look at how we educate people, how we're going to be able to train people and get them interested locally. If we can't train them and provide them some skills, some understanding, and some appreciation for the work they do, we certainly aren't going to interest them in the sector. Then we have to get them trained up to our industry needs, and we also need to look at those temporary workers who we bring in.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bev Shipley

You've got a minute and a half.

4:20 p.m.

NDP

Malcolm Allen NDP Welland, ON

That was brevity, Ms. Patterson. Thank you.

I think many of us who have been here for a number of years have heard before many times of the different formats the issue of provincial abattoirs, federally regulated versus provincially regulated, and whether we can keep them local and open, and all kinds of issues back and forth.

You've given us a challenge, quite frankly. You obviously have been asked and have answered a number of times that you don't actually have the answer. It seems that it's a challenge for us to take forward, and we need to actually take a look at this.

Mr. Bonnett, you said that there was a pilot done, and perhaps we need to go back and look at the results of that. Perhaps that'll be in the report, hopefully, that we need to go back and look at that and see what it is, and see how we can take the suggestions about how we actually have a sector that meets the needs of the producers and the processors and a bunch of the consumers. I mean, how do we do that thing? I don't think it's an easy one. It's been a challenge for a lot of us in a lot of different ways.

The standard is being set at a certain level and, unfortunately—and I've said this before in this committee—the problem is that retailers have decided to set the standard, not us. If we set the standard, they'd just have to abide by what the standard is. They're setting a standard and saying, “You meet the standard or else you're not getting in the chain”. Unfortunately, what it means, in your industry at least, Ms. Patterson, is that a lot of your folks are getting cut out of that chain, no pun intended, which is really unfortunate.

I appreciate the input from both in that sense, and I think it's something we need to go back to. As I say, just to emphasize, Mr. Bonnett, I think we need to go back and look at that study and see what came out of it, and see if we can't get our heads around how we manage this. I think all of us actually are on this wavelength about how we manage it. We don't know how yet, it seems, and I think we need to do that.

I appreciate the input from both on that. By the way, I buy as much local sheep as I can find, and lamb products, but I agree it's not easy.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bev Shipley

Mr. Leef, for five minutes, please.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Ryan Leef Conservative Yukon, YT

We were having a little debate over here on who would go next, largely because I'm the member of Parliament for Yukon, so we are limited in our lamb market.

4:20 p.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!

4:20 p.m.

A voice

[Inaudible--Editor]

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Ryan Leef Conservative Yukon, YT

Yes, I was thinking of all the moose I eat, not the beef.

Nonetheless, there is perhaps an interesting element that you could comment on. You were talking about so much Ontario lamb product staying in the province of Ontario. Then you look at potential land users right across the country, as far north as my own territory, where each successive provincial jurisdiction between your province and my territory will have varying standards of acceptance or various standards that you need to deal with. That starts to slow down that entire route. It's already far enough from Ottawa to Yukon—Lord knows, I do it every weekend—never mind throwing in some red tape of the government. Those products just aren't going to get to markets like the three territories.

What's your experience with interprovincial transport where the end use of your product is somewhere other than the transport that you go through? Does that complicate this discussion even further? Or is that piece fairly well dealt with and it's just the end-use agreements that become more challenging for you?

4:20 p.m.

Executive Director, Canadian Sheep Federation

Corlena Patterson

Is that the product or the livestock themselves?

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Ryan Leef Conservative Yukon, YT

Well, I would ask you that question as well. It's a good question.

4:20 p.m.

Executive Director, Canadian Sheep Federation

Corlena Patterson

The movement of livestock I shouldn't say is simple, but it's done frequently enough that it's figured out. Our transporters often will back-haul something else. They're very specific. They know the regulations. They meet all of those standards.

Generally on the transport issue, there are not barriers related to it in terms of the transport requirements as much as it is an animal welfare concern, right? It's the transport regulations for livestock, how much time they can spend on a truck before they have to be unloaded. It's not that sheep are special, but sheep are different from some species, where that actual unloading is more stressful than the transport. There is a requirement by regulation to take them off for a certain amount of time. We see lots of Alberta lamb that in turn has to go across two provinces to get to Ontario. Likewise, we see a lot of Maritime lamb having.... Because Quebec has a controlled heavy market lamb, you can't ship anything heavy into Quebec. Those producers, to get anything federally inspected with no federal inspection plant there, have to come across Quebec and make it into Ontario. But that's figured out; it's more an animal welfare concern than the transport part.

In terms of product, provided it's federally inspected, on the movement of the product itself I'm not familiar with there being limitations on it once it's a product, once it's a cut meat, and being able to transport interprovincially. I don't think that's the barrier. It's provided it's federally inspected that it gets moved; that's the biggest limitation.

4:25 p.m.

President, Canadian Federation of Agriculture

Ron Bonnett

There may be some restrictions on the movement of certain species. I recall a few years ago I was in the Rainy River area in northwestern Ontario. There was an elk producer there who was wanting to have his animals killed at a federally inspected facility, which was located in the Winnipeg area. However, he was not allowed to transport those live animals across the provincial border because of some disease regulations that were in place, even though it was a closed truck that they were hauled in.

Things like that are somewhat frustrating. We had a producer who had a market, provided he could get a federal stamp on it, but he couldn't haul the animals to the closest federal plant.

For some species there are regulations. That's why I think there needs to be a lot of work done on identifying the specific regulations that are causing the problems, whether it be regulations around trucking, around disease, around the provincial inspection, or around processing plants, things like that, so that you can really target in. It's very easy to just generalize and say the regulations are the problem. Well, unless you get down to which regulation is the problem and how it can be fixed, it doesn't go anywhere.

I think several of you had suggested, on the provincial inspection thing, that this is what has to be looked at—what the differences are, and why we can't bring these in line so that the retail sector has the confidence to accept these products and the provinces have the confidence, between their own provincial inspection systems, to allow the shipment of product back and forth.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Ryan Leef Conservative Yukon, YT

Fair enough.

I think one of the panellists asked whether you've been seized with trying to determine what exactly those would be. Where do you think the role best fits? Is it with your associations and the experts who live with this and work with this day to day, or with government, or is it a combination? How do you see that rolling out? That's the piece to find out.

4:25 p.m.

President, Canadian Federation of Agriculture

Ron Bonnett

I think there are a number of players that have to be at the table: the provincial and federal governments; CFIA would definitely be playing a role; provincial inspection authorities would be playing a role; and the processors would have specific concerns that they would be bringing forward. It can't be done in isolation, having just a farm group. It has to be farm groups, government.... This is an industry-wide thing.

In the past in the agricultural sector we have sometimes looked at things in silos, rather than realizing that we have one consumer at the end, and looking at how we can make sure the product we're giving to that consumer meets all of the requirements for food safety and everything, but also satisfies the concerns of all the players along the road.

So it has to be a number of players; it's not one player that can solve this.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bev Shipley

Thank you very much, Mr. Leef.

I want to thank the witnesses for your earlier presentations and your direct answers. Thank you very much.

We'll recess for a couple of minutes. We have a video conference coming. We'll be right back.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bev Shipley

I'd like to call the committee back for our last hour.

With us today we have Tyler Bjornson, president of the Canada Grains Council. Welcome, Tyler.

Also, we have by video conference from Mississauga Rory McAlpine, senior vice-president, government and industry relations, Maple Leaf Foods. Welcome, Rory.

Can you hear us?

4:25 p.m.

Rory McAlpine Senior Vice-President, Government and Industry Relations, Maple Leaf Foods Inc.

Yes, I can, thank you.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bev Shipley

Thank you very much.

Because we have the video conference, and sometimes the technology doesn't stay with us all the time, I'm going to start with Mr. McAlpine for 10 minutes. If you have opening statements, please start.

4:25 p.m.

Senior Vice-President, Government and Industry Relations, Maple Leaf Foods Inc.

Rory McAlpine

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I also want to thank the committee members.

It's an honour to present to you on your important topic of internal trade barriers and the link to growth and competitiveness in the Canadian agrifood industry.

Let me start with a word that sometimes makes Canadians a little uncomfortable, but it's crucial to making Canadian agrifood businesses become or remain globally competitive. That word is “scale”. Of course, the economic concept is simple and well understood, I think, and it's relevant regardless of the starting point, meaning that I think we see many cases of small Canadian food companies that are very innovative and have a great product, but they fail to become medium-sized businesses with a competitive cost structure, because they don't succeed in scaling up.

You may know that it was back in 2006 that Maple Leaf Foods was losing a significant amount of money when it first announced its major new business model for our protein operations, with the goal of changing our cost structure, reducing exposure to commodity markets, and modernizing our plants. Unlike many other companies, we decided to maximize our scale on this side of the Canada-U.S. border. The journey since then has been tumultuous, but we've stuck to the plan, and we have now basically completed the journey of investing over $1 billion in meat processing centres of excellence in Canada.

All of these productivity-enhancing investments and restructuring activities have been carefully calculated to achieve a competitive return on investment. That return is, in almost every case, scale dependent. Unless we achieve per-unit manufacturing and distribution costs, SKU by SKU operating overheads, and plant capacity utilization on par with our domestic, U.S., and global competitors, we would have little future as a proud Canadian-owned company.

The question becomes what governments can do to help and how that links to the theme of your study. I believe the federal government is well aware of the need to close Canada's productivity gap with the U.S. There's lots of evidence in the action plans of government to make clear that the government is trying to solve this, but we never seem to close the productivity gap, even though we are often rated as a top destination for foreign investment. As the Institute For Competitiveness and Prosperity often reminds us, a productivity gap is also a prosperity gap.

So what's the solution? We believe it is to create conditions that allow investors, be they domestic or foreign, to achieve world-class scale. To do so, we must first accept that, frankly, Canada is a sub-scale country, but secondly, we should resist scale phobia. Scale is not a win-lose proposition in an open globalized market economy like Canada's, especially in agrifood. Farms and firms of all sizes and in all sectors can thrive, and many smaller input suppliers will grow in the wake of larger firms with leading brands.

In meat products, while Maple Leaf Foods enjoys leading market shares in certain categories, hundreds of other nimble companies and importers are thriving, constantly innovating and meeting the ever-changing consumer preferences. Sometimes, they even steal our employees.

However, if we are achieving cost competitive scale in sectors like autos, aerospace, and information technology, why not agrifood? Think about Heineken, Unilever, Danish Crown, Godiva, Carlsberg, and the tiny countries that they call home: the Netherlands, Denmark, and Belgium. But with 143 food plant closures in Canada in the past 8 years, and with a rising number of food imports from such global multinationals, it would seem that we need a new strategy with a central goal of scaling up in food as much as we have in many primary commodities.

Of course, scale doesn't come naturally in our large, diverse country. The impediments are great and the case for inducement is high, but surely we can build economic policies that also help our homegrown enterprises that, while large in a domestic context, need to be urgently scaled up to be truly globally competitive.

If any of you are thinking that is an easy statement for a big company like Maple Leaf Foods, I would just simply note that Maple Leaf is only the 17th largest meat processor in North America. We are dwarfed by global players like JBS, Tyson, and Cargill, with whom we compete at home and abroad.

So what are some of the obstacles firstly that government can remove to overcome some of the disadvantages that Canadian companies naturally face in our domestic market? Let me run through just some of them.

Firstly, there are various federal grant, loan, and tax programs. Such programs nearly always favour support to enterprises, foreign investors in particular being the real prize, locating in a rural or high unemployment area with job creation targets, but rarely with a real test to ensure that they achieve the scale and productivity necessary to be globally competitive. Often firms with 50 employees or more can't even apply for such support.

On the other hand, when it comes to supporting large manufacturers in their drive for scale and technology, it seems the majority of that support nearly always goes to the auto and aerospace sectors. Of course, there are very many provincial subsidy programs as well, which again often favour investments in rural locations. But in the meat industry, for example, we often see provinces supporting small regional slaughter plants that, if they are provincially licensed, cannot ship their products interprovincially, and so they struggle to achieve scale efficiencies.

There's also the question of Canadian competition and foreign investment policies, which, obviously, in certain sectors are very restrictive, but not so in agriculture and food. However, I would note that even when it comes to reviewing mergers and acquisitions, our experience at Maple Leaf in acquiring Schneider Foods in 2004 caused the bureau to undertake an investigation of the concentration in the Ontario market for bacon, of course a commodity that is freely traded throughout North America.

With respect to tax policy, we've seen many positive things in Canada with the reduction of corporate taxes, the elimination of capital taxes, the maintenance of the accelerated capital cost allowance, but we also of course have a high degree of variability in tax structures across Canada. There's a lack of a uniform, harmonized sales tax. We have a bewildering array of tax credit programs, which are often designed to favour small firms, and numerous job-killing payroll taxes, all of which increase accounting and tax-compliant costs for larger firms that operate across the country.

Then, of course, there's the regulatory environment. The first area there that I might mention would be regulated marketing, which is obviously an issue we're all familiar with. But regulated marketing and supply-managed commodities have a knock-on effect on processors. A good example would be the Ontario poultry processing industry, a $2.5 billion industry that is characterized by many subscale, inefficient plants, largely a result of the allocation policies that are the essence of supply management.

Food safety regulations are another example where there is a great deal of federal-provincial disconnect or lack of harmonization. However, I would say that at the federal level, the new regulations that we expect soon under the Safe Food for Canadians Act, coupled with inspection modernization, are very welcome. We would urge provinces to align with this federal example.

There are lots of municipal issues, including restrictive zoning and planning bylaws, which generally discourage or create a great deal of difficulty for the establishment of scale manufacturing industries, particularly in more traditional industries that are perceived to be sources of pollution, noise, or odour.

Then there are all the environmental regulatory issues that are very complex and often duplicative between different levels of government. As one example, we see this with the blue box recycling programs across Canada in the food industry, every one of them different, all highly fragmented, costly, and inefficient.

Of course, we need to encourage the removal of interprovincial trade barriers, but most often these arise not from explicit barriers, but rather are related to the consequences of provincial standards, regulations, licensing, procurement policies, and so on. All of these differences add to administrative costs for national firms. In the area of labour and pension regulation, every province is different. Maple Leaf has 19 collective agreements in its operations in Canada, every one subject to a different provincial labour law.

Finally, what are the inducements, then? If those are some of the obstacles, there are probably four main areas to consider in how we work to address the issue of stimulating corporate investment in scale and productivity. One would be to continue the accelerated depreciation of plant and equipment under tax policy. This has been very effective, but it's only being renewed two years at a time. It takes much longer than two years to move from the conceptualization through to the budget and approval of a major capital investment, so the ACCA should be made permanent.

Targeted loan and grant programs have an important role to play, but they should not discriminate according to rural or urban location, industry sector, skilled versus unskilled job creation, or firm size.

We certainly appreciate the Canada jobs grant, but we have a problem with a shortage of skills and availability of labour, which has been compounded in our industry by the overreaching reforms to the temporary foreign worker program.

Infrastructure needs to be built at scale. For example, the Asia-Pacific gateway, critical to growing our exports to Asia, is a great investment, but has been very slow to come to fruition because of all of the delays in getting individual projects approved.

Finally, we would encourage a national approach to facilitating investment attraction. We recently located our big new prepared meats plant in Hamilton and learned how difficult it is, when you're trying to get support from all of the different economic development agencies in different provinces in Canada, how little coordination there is. This is much different from other competitor countries.

In conclusion, from our perspective your committee is tackling a very important issue. In the current economic environment, food processors must close the competitiveness gap through restructuring and productivity-enhancing investments. However, the the ability to achieve this requires our industry to leverage production capacity and increase the scale of operations. It's only on this basis that we can defend our small home market from nearby U.S. multinationals that enjoy major scale advantages, let alone tackle the booming international markets.

Of course, if we had a small primary agriculture sector, with limited resources—

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bev Shipley

I'd ask you to wrap it up, please.

March 12th, 2015 / 4:45 p.m.

Senior Vice-President, Government and Industry Relations, Maple Leaf Foods Inc.

Rory McAlpine

Yes.

If we had a minimal export potential, maybe none of this would matter. But, of course, we have an industry that is the largest in terms of employment in the manufacturing sector in Canada, and we don't have a dollar that's at 65¢ any more. We have a huge opportunity, and if much smaller countries, like Belgium, Holland, and Denmark, can achieve global scale in productivity, there are really no excuses for Canada.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bev Shipley

Thank you very much, Mr. McAlpine.

Now we'll go to Mr. Bjornson from the Canada Grains Council, for 10 minutes, please.

4:45 p.m.

Tyler Bjornson President, Canada Grains Council

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

For those of you not aware, the Canada Grains Council is the peak organization of grain industry interests, representing producers, crop input companies, grain companies, and grain processors.

Formed in 1969 to coordinate efforts to increase the sale and use of Canadian grain in domestic and world markets, the council has become the leading recognized forum of the entire grain industry in Canada and around the world. We are a pan-Canadian association, with 30 members, with interests across the various crop sectors encompassing cereal grains, oilseeds, pulses, and specialty crops value-chain participants.

The Canada Grains Council's mission is to lead, facilitate, and support policy development and implementation on issues and opportunities that affect all of these commodities and to enable cross-commodity collaboration. Our members include the Canola Council of Canada, Pulse Canada, Cereals Canada, the Flax Council of Canada, the Barley Council of Canada, and Grain Farmers of Ontario, among many others.

The Canada Grains Council members have identified two strategic policy pillars in our work, including trade-enabling market access and enhancing our approach to measuring and communicating on the industry's record on sustainability through the recent creation of the Canadian round table for sustainable crops.

I'm here today to speak to you about some concerns we've raised under our first policy pillar on trade-enabling market access issues in the context of interprovincial trade barriers.

In January of this year, the Canada Grains Council sent a letter to the Prime Minister, premiers, and federal ministers of agriculture and health outlining our concerns with non-science-based regulatory interventions by some provinces on crop sector agricultural products. I believe a copy of this letter has already been circulated to members of this committee for your reference.

In short, we're asking premiers to commit to work towards the adoption of a federal-provincial agreement on recognition of federal regulatory approvals related to the crop sector.

The productivity and international competitiveness of this multi-billion dollar sector is highly dependent upon timely and uninterrupted access to agriculture and food inputs and technologies that have received regulatory approval and are commercially available in other grain-producing and exporting countries.

Examples of these inputs and technologies include seed of crop varieties exhibiting agronomic and end-use performance traits that have been developed and registered for commercial production; licensed crop protection products that include seed treatments, herbicide, fungicide, and insecticide to provide the highest possible quality harvests while ensuring food feed and environmental safety; and food additives and processing aids used in the primary and further processing of commodities such as cereal grains, oilseeds, and pulse crops.

These inputs in technologies undergo pre-market evaluation and licensing registration by Canada's federal departments and agencies, including the Pest Management Regulatory Agency, Health Canada's food directorate, the Canadian Food Inspection Agency, and the Canadian Grain Commission, and are scientifically demonstrated to be safe for intended use in terms of food safety and environmental impact.

One of the foundations of Canadian agriculture and a key competitive advantage for Canadian farmers is our world-renowned science-based regulatory system. Many nations are envious of our system, which provides both rigorous science to protect the health of Canadians and the environment, and a predictable, timely system that gives farmers and industry the tools they need.

The foundations of this system, however, break down when provincial governments, who do not have the research capacity of the federal agencies previously noted, start imposing regulations that contradict and override federal regulatory decisions. This creates unpredictability in Canada on what jurisdictions should regulate on which issues, potentially leading to both a patchwork of regulatory approaches across provinces, unnecessary and costly duplication between the federal and provincial governments, and regulatory approaches by some provinces that appear to be grounded in perception rather than science.

A clear example of this is currently under way in Ontario where the Ontario government is imposing an arbitrary perception-driven restriction on neonicotinoid seed treatments for corn and soy seeds, in contrast to the cautious science-based approach taken by both PMRA at the federal level in Canada and the Environmental Protection Agency in the United States.

This will have far-reaching and very negative effects on farmers, forcing them either to go back to using older outdated pesticides or to source their seeds from outside Canada. It also sends a terrible signal to international investors that, notwithstanding Canada's science-based regulatory system, significant risks are involved when investing in Canada due to provincial intrusion into federal regulatory jurisdiction. Moreover, it distorts trade across provincial lines, hampers innovation, and hurts our farmers. In our view it's bad public policy, and it could be prevented with an agreement between the federal and provincial ministers to respect federal regulatory jurisdiction.

A similar distortion has been taking place for some time now in the context of provincial and local bans on urban use of pesticides. Notwithstanding the fact that PMRA performs rigorous evaluations and re-evaluations on all pesticides, we see politically driven pesticide bans at the provincial and local levels in Canada that hurt investment, distort trade, and send a clear signal to international investors that Canada is not in fact completely science-based in its regulatory decisions. Again, this stems from a lack of federal-provincial co-operation on regulations, more specifically a failure by some provinces to respect federal jurisdiction and expertise in the regulation of food, feed, and the environmental safety of agricultural products.

Farmers and industry are rightly concerned that these intrusions from provincial and local governments will become more frequent and even more disruptive, and the recent action of certain provinces is proving these fears to be accurate.

In conclusion, the Canada Grains Council believes that the federal government has a leadership role to play in removing this potential to have trade-distorting and duplicative regulation brought in at the provincial level. Federal regulatory agencies have the obligation to regulate and enforce Canada's national food, feed, and environmental safety measures, and we believe it should include ensuring that provincial governments do not casually sweep aside the science and risk-based determinations on agricultural products that are the foundation of market assess to these tools across Canada.

Thank you very much for your attention.

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bev Shipley

Thank you very much. I appreciate your time.

Now I will move to Madame Raynault, for five minutes, please.

4:50 p.m.

NDP

Francine Raynault NDP Joliette, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I also want to thank the witnesses for participating in this afternoon's meeting.

I have a question for Mr. McAlpine.

You said that 143 food plants have closed over the past 8 years.

Do you know why?