Agriculture Committee on Oct. 30th, 2018

[Devyn Brook]

Yes. The preliminary phase seems to be mental health first aid. What mental health first aid does is it gives people the confidence to ask those questions, so it gives the confidence to ask, “Are you okay?”, and to manage the response as well. There's a lot of fear about overstepping by asking if somebody's okay: Am I invasive at that point? Mental health first aid gives that confidence.

Next, there's peer-to-peer support, which is exactly what you're speaking about. I think that's the next phase moving forward. How can we create systems of peer-to-peer support, so that a dairy farmer can speak to another dairy farmer, when it's not even really a question of “Can I stay in today?”, but rather, “This is harvest time and this is an imperative time that I show up on my farm”. It's not even really a question of taking a sick day. How can we create systems, so there's somebody you can call up and say, “Hey, this is what I'm dealing with right now”, and then have somebody on the other line who can say, “Yes, I get that and this is what's worked for me”?

[Bev Shipley]

I just had a thought about how the regionality across this country is so diverse. I would always be concerned, if we had a cash cropper talking to a fisherman. That's the peer-to-peer I hope you're talking about, Devyn.

When we're in the agriculture and farming business, anxiety and stress are actually part of our day. However, at some point, is it that the peer reviewer or the peer, who could come alongside, would be helpful to us, by just knowing they're there when that trip to the abnormal from the normal stress and anxiety is over? Is there anything that has been done that would help us? In terms of some of the studies, you go back to 2013, but we're now in 2018. Is there anything more current that would help us?

[Lisa Ashworth]

I wonder how many times you've heard the name Dr. Andria Jones-Bitton so far. That's my science background, where I go back to the old and come to the new. I find it interesting that there are these studies saying that we have a problem. We have a problem, so let's do something. I think that maintaining the University of Guelph as a centre and encouraging that work, where we're actually talking to people in 2018 and into 2019—

[The Chair, Liberal, Pat Finnigan]

Thank you, Ms. Ashworth.

Thank you, Mr. Shipley.

I now give the floor to Mr. Poissant, who has six minutes.

[Jean-Claude Poissant, Liberal, La Prairie, QC]

Okay.

I would like to thank the witnesses. It's always interesting to hear about the experience behind the distress of farmers.

My first question is for Mr. Brook, but it can also be for everyone.

Do farmers in psychological distress react differently depending on their age? Does a young farmer react more easily than an older person?

[Shawn Brook]

I really can't claim to be the mental health expert, but my experience is that it is right across the board. From the people we talk to, the distinction that I hear talked about more is whether we're talking about acute or whether we're talking about preventative discussions. I think that division is more of the conversation than about any kind of age group. That preventative discussion is where I think the peer dialogue fits in. Then the acute situation is where we need investment on the professional side of the mental health discussion.

Sorry. I know that doesn't really answer your question, but it's the best I have for you.

[Lisa Ashworth]

I think there are significant differences between ages, but it's different stressors. Older farmers are stressed about transition. Should I keep farming until my kids decide whether they want to do this or not? Young farmer groups.... Because we're having this conversation, people coming into agriculture are hopefully going to be better equipped to deal with the stress. Young farmers have forums. They're much more up front about the stress of coming into agriculture, but our senior farmers have been internalizing multiple stressors for decades, in some cases. They're also the people who were taught to suck it up. There are very different stressors, I think.

I'm not sure if that answers your question. We're all stressed, but we have different types of stress.

[Jean-Claude Poissant, Liberal, La Prairie, QC]

Ms. Ashworth, you said earlier that the time for research has passed and that action must now be taken. I was glad to hear you say that, and you aren't the first one to make that comment. Research shows that there are needs and that we must act.

You may not know this, but at Quebec's agricultural schools, conferences are given to young students studying in this field. There are often testimonies from people who have experienced difficulties, but there are also people who come to tell these young people what they can expect in their lives.

Is this something that could be implemented in all agricultural schools?

[Lisa Ashworth]

I've never actually been involved in New Brunswick Young Farmers, but I think there is a lot more with succession planning. We've recognized that's a step you have to take—to talk about business risk management and things like that. We seem to have an encouraging wave of younger people wanting to be involved in the industry who do not come from farm families.

A person who has grown up on a farm and is going into agriculture has lived through this at their dinner table, so they know those stressors. For the people coming into agriculture who aren't from a rural background and a farming background, it's imperative to me that there should be a course—the same as occupational health and safety, first aid and those sorts of things. These are the things they're going to face. I don't think that's standard.

I would applaud Quebec for having something like that.

[Jean-Claude Poissant, Liberal, La Prairie, QC]

I will give the rest of my time to Mr. Harvey.

[Lisa Ashworth]

Sharing is caring.

[TJ Harvey, Liberal, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

I know your farm quite well because you're in my riding. Your farm would be one of the larger dairy farms in the province. It is very remote and isolated, and I know that you and Derek have struggled with human resources. That's been a major issue for a long time.

[Lisa Ashworth]

He's milked the last two mornings.

[TJ Harvey, Liberal, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Yes.

Can you speak to the added anxiety and stress caused by the inability to find qualified labour to manage your operation the way you would like to operate it?

[Lisa Ashworth]

That's a very timely question, given my co-presenters.

We've played with the idea of temporary foreign workers for years. We don't want to do that. We want to employ local people. Part of having an agricultural enterprise is supporting your local community, but we can't find people who want to come to work at four o'clock in the morning. Most people don't want to get dirty and all that sort of stuff.

It's probably the biggest stress. My husband is very good at what he does. He knows how to do the job, but when you're reliant on people who may or may not come to work, it's an incredible stress—and it's on the whole family.

When the phone rings at 3:30 in the morning, you know exactly what's happening. Whatever plans you had for the day are done. Because we are a large enough operation, my husband doesn't normally physically milk cows. He's managing at this point, but when someone doesn't show up to work, he's milking. The next in line—my son—has gone away to school. His backup plan is now away for two years at least. Starting at age 14, our son got those phone calls at 3:30 in the morning to go milk. That's what our family does.

It's a stress that never goes away. It's something you don't realize you have after a certain amount of time, which isn't healthy. We know that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Pat Finnigan]

Thank you, Ms. Ashworth. Thank you, Mr. Harvey.

Now we have Mr. MacGregor for six minutes.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you.

I'll start with Ms. Brook in Winnipeg.

You talked a little bit about peer-to-peer support and the services that various organizations are trying to make available to farmers. You've also talked about the culture where so many are reluctant to go and seek help.

We've heard a lot of testimony in this committee about proactive steps. I was just wondering if you could expand on some of your experiences and recommendations about how we can be proactive. What are some innovative ways of reaching farmers who are busy with harvest and also reluctant to seek the kind of help they need?

[Devyn Brook]

That's a fabulous question.

In terms of innovative ways, there is definitely a progression toward the online community. That's something we've really been working on creating. We have found and noticed a whole lot of success in developing a space that people can come to. Whether they're out in the field or anywhere, no matter what, they can connect to content, to stories from people who've been through something similar. Whether the confidence is there to reach out and pick up the phone and call somebody up and say, “Hey, I'm having a really tough time right now”, there are still opportunities for people to read a story from someone who has been in a similar situation, or has gone through a certain process and shared it, so that they can find a little bit of hope in their situation as well.

That is one opportunity for us to continue to explore and see how it can be more supportive. We've progressed toward creating programming for peer-to-peer support. I think it's going to start small. I think the first thing is to create conversations. Ms. Ashworth mentioned that it's the younger generation that is moving into the agriculture community, who haven't been bred into the culture of “you put your head down and you just get work done”.

It's also a really exciting opportunity for agriculture. There is a new voice coming into the scene that has an innovative possibility to it, that can create conversations that may not have been there, and that can be part of the culture in which we do talk about things, we do participate in conversations around mental health and we do share our stories. It's really exciting that agriculture is becoming so inclusive. It's bringing people in. It's creating conversations with the public. It's creating conversations with each other. I think that's an exciting possibility.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you. I have to move on to another witness. My time is running out. Thanks so much.

Mr. Huesca, thank you so much for shining a light on migrant workers. In this study, for legitimate reasons, we've been concentrating on farmers, but the workers are such a huge component of making a farm work properly. They have been overshadowed in this study. Thanks for shining a light on that.

With respect to migrant workers, we have heard from a lot of producers about the problems of securing an adequate workforce. We tend to treat migrant workers as just a statistic—this many come to Canada to work every year, and farms need this many.

What do you think the federal government could be doing to start that conversation about mental health when migrant workers are going through the application process? Do you have any recommendations?

[Eduardo Huesca]

Do you mean when they're in the application process?

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Yes.

[Eduardo Huesca]

Under the federal government program, there is an assessment of mental health as workers are coming through. It's twofold. Education might be good for workers to have a bit of an understanding of what they might expect: maybe some of the feelings of isolation in coming to our country, that they might not speak the language, or that they come to rural towns that might be ethnically and culturally not as diverse or not reflective of them as perhaps racialized people.

I also think that, on the side of the federal government, there should be a lot of education for the employers of migrant farm workers to help them better receive these workers. In a lot of these rural towns, you might not have the experience of working with a diverse workforce. I work in Toronto. In my times in urban centres, I see ethnic and cultural diversity. In some rural towns it's not the same. That's not to say it's a good or a bad thing. It's just a reality. It is complex when you are a farmer who has worked with a certain culture that is your own and have a group of workers come in, and then you add power dynamics or communication differences. Without a good introduction to some of the things that could happen, employers are left a bit on their own to troubleshoot a lot of things.

The education is twofold. It's to prepare migrant workers for some of the hardships they may expect—they don't have family here and a lot of them are isolated—but it's also for employers, to give them a bit of an idea.

I really like all the talks about sharing stories and humanizing. I think mental health really humanizes, and testimonies really humanize. If we had a mental health program that shared these stories, you'd want to make sure the stories are diverse. You have a male farmer talking about how masculinity affects the stigmatization of mental health. Maybe you have female—

[The Chair, Liberal, Pat Finnigan]

Thank you, Mr. Huesca.

Madam Nassif, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Eva Nassif, Liberal, Vimy, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank the witnesses for their presentations.

As a former nurse, I would first like to address Ms. Tew, who is a nurse.

In Canada, 10 people die by suicide each day. Suicide is the ninth cause of death in the country. Of the 4,000 people who die every year, over 90% are farmers.

You're a nurse. What would you do if a farmer, whose farm is close to his house, came to ask for help in a crisis? How could we help this distressed farmer take time off when he lives near his workplace?

Ms. Tew, what do you do, on the ground, to help farmers in distress?

[Michelle Tew, Occupational Health Nurse, Hamilton Clinic, Occupational Health Clinics for Ontario Workers Inc.]

Thank you for the question.

Just as a bit of a personal introduction, I grew up on a family farm and worked on a family farm as well, so I understand those stresses and those demands. As well, I also lost a very close family member to suicide, related to many of the factors that have been discussed in the meeting, so I do understand where that is coming from.

In terms of the work that we do, we don't clinically treat people with mental health issues at our clinic. That's not our area of expertise. We're mainly focused on occupational health issues. Certainly, as has been discussed and presented by previous witnesses, the ability to leave your workplace and your home is not easy for a farmer. I think the challenge is where a woman goes for help, because a lot of the discussion has been around the fact that most of the farmers who have been included in the discussion have been male.

Males tend to have a higher rate of suicide than females do. Women oftentimes are the support system and the backbone of the family farm, and they oftentimes take the brunt of much of the stress. I'm not exactly sure what their support system is beyond their internal support system and the formal health care system.