Evidence of meeting #47 for Agriculture and Agri-Food in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was pmra.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Richard Aucoin  Executive Director, Pest Management Regulatory Agency, Department of Health
Andrea Johnston  Director General, Sector Development and Analysis Directorate, Market and Industry Services Branch, Department of Agriculture and Agri-Food
Scott Kirby  Director General, Environmental Assessment Directorate, Pest Management Regulatory Agency, Department of Health
Pierre Petelle  Vice-President, Chemistry, CropLife Canada
Paul Thiel  Vice-President, Product Development & Regulatory Science, Bayer CropScience Inc.
Chris Davison  Head, Corporate Affairs, Syngenta Canada
Paul Hoekstra  Senior Stewardship and Policy Manager, Syngenta Canada
Maria Trainer  Managing Director, Science and Regulatory Affairs, CropLife Canada

11 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Pat Finnigan

Welcome, members of the committee.

Mr. Brassard is with us today, replacing Mr. Shipley.

Welcome to all of the other members. I think we're all here. Also, I want to welcome our guests, whom we will get to almost immediately.

I want to do a little bit of quick business. We need to approve two budgets: one for our travel, and one for this study we are doing.

You've all received a copy of the budgets. If you want to first look at the travel budget, what I need is consensus to adopt it as I will be presenting it to the Liaison Committee on Thursday. I don't know if you have had a chance to look at it. It is basically what we discussed, and it's for the amount of $46,841.60.

Are there any questions on the budget itself? Can we get consensus on my presenting it to the Liaison Committee on Thursday?

11 a.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

11 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Pat Finnigan

We're all good.

Do you agree, Ms. Brosseau?

Thank you.

We have consensus on that one.

The other one is a standard budget for our study. We have an amount that we fixed there of $17,000. We may not use all of it. This is for witness appearances, video conference expenses, the expense of working meals, and all that. Are there any questions on that one?

11 a.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

11 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Pat Finnigan

It's all good. We have consensus on both. Thank you so much.

To get back to today's study, this is our first meeting on the neonicotinoid insecticide study. I want to welcome our witnesses for the first hour. From the Department of Health, we have Scott Kirby, director general, environmental assessment directorate, pest management regulatory agency. That's a long title. From the Department of Agriculture and Agri-Food, we have Andrea Johnston, director general, sector development and analysis directorate, market and industry services branch.

I'm sorry, Mr. Aucoin. I missed you on the first one.

We also have Mr. Richard Aucoin, executive director, PMRA.

Welcome all of you. We will have opening statements for up to 10 minutes each.

Go ahead, Mr. Aucoin, for 10 minutes.

11 a.m.

Dr. Richard Aucoin Executive Director, Pest Management Regulatory Agency, Department of Health

Hello, Mr. Chair.

Hello, honourable members of the committee.

Thank you for inviting us to speak to you today. I am Richard Aucoin, the executive director of the pest management regulatory agency (PMRA) of Health Canada. I am here with Scott Kirby who is the director general of our environmental assessment directorate.

As you are aware, PMRA is responsible for regulating pesticides in Canada. Our role is to ensure that pesticides authorized for use in Canada do not pose unacceptable risks to human health or the environment.

We do this through an extensive and robust scientific review process, both before a pesticide can be sold and used in Canada, and with periodic re-evaluations to ensure these pesticides continue to meet modern standards.

Our post-market re-evaluations and activities allow PMRA to monitor and respond to any new risks and to consider modern science. This includes using new science to re-evaluate pesticides on a 15-year cycle, performing special reviews in response to new health or environmental concerns, and collecting and analyzing information about pesticide incidents in Canada and around the world.

All of these post-market activities have played a role in PMRA's ongoing scientific review of the neonic pesticides. This is a very complex activity that involves a high level of engagement with other federal and provincial partners, academic scientists, international experts, regulatory bodies around the world, manufacturers, and the agricultural sector.

As I'm sure you know, the level of public and international interest in the relationship between neonics and pollinator health issues has been very high for some time. Our ongoing scientific assessment of the evidence has been conducted under very substantial public pressure to discontinue the registration of these pesticides.

Following bee deaths linked to planting of neonicotinoid-treated seeds in 2012 and 2013, instead of moving to restrict or discontinue registrations, PMRA worked very closely with many stakeholders. For example, we worked with grain farmers, the seed industry, the provinces, and the beekeeping industry to understand and develop approaches to planting that would reduce exposure to bees. With all these mitigation measures in place, the number of incidents fell by about 80%, and that trend has continued over the last few years. This speaks to PMRA's focus on the scientific evidence as paramount in our decision-making, as well as acknowledging the important role the agriculture sector can play in risk management.

Our current assessment is that the risk to managed bees from the use of one of the neonics, imidacloprid, is manageable, although there remains substantial work to be done in this area, including ensuring there are no unacceptable risks to wild bees and other pollinators. It is important to note that the initial part of our assessment really focused on managed honeybees, for example pollination services and commercial beekeeping operations. We still have some work to do to understand whether there are any unacceptable risks to wild bees and other pollinators.

As part of our broader, cyclical re-evaluation of the three major neonics, we are conducting an examination of all the available science—both published and proprietary information—regarding risks to the aquatic environment. These risks are evaluated in the context of how neonics are used in Canada and all the available information. This includes actual levels found in water by federal and provincial governments and academic sources in Canada. We have completed our review of the risks to the aquatic environment of the neonic imidacloprid, one of the three neonics, and the reviews of two other neonics are in progress.

One of the key outcomes of PMRA's re-evaluation of the neonic imidacloprid was the conclusion that the use of imidacloprid in Canada is causing harm to aquatic environments. High levels of imidacloprid found cannot be traced to a specific use on a specific crop, and we really have no alternative regulatory instruments available to us to effectively address such a broad risk issue, other than cancelling the authorization. PMRA is consulting with Canadians until March 23 on its proposal to phase out, over the next three to five years, all the agricultural uses of imidacloprid that we believe are contributing to this risk. Before making this proposal, we considered any alternative risk mitigation options that could achieve the same objective in the same time frame. We've also consulted extensively with colleagues from Environment Canada, with the U.S. EPA, and with some of our colleagues in Europe on our findings.

PMRA recognizes the importance of imidacloprid and the other neonics to Canadian agriculture. This is why, in addition to an extended public consultation period, PMRA is engaging with stakeholders through technical briefings, webinars, and a monthly multi-stakeholder forum chaired by our colleagues at Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada. PMRA will take into account all the information gathered through this process in making its final decision. In addition, if there is compelling new science that comes to light in the short term, we will take that into consideration. We will not, however, unreasonably delay our decision-making.

It is important to note that if a final decision is made to discontinue the registration of imidacloprid or any other neonic or pesticide, any new information or data that comes to light that shows it can, in fact, be used safely could be included in a new submission for registration by a manufacturer. We intend to continue to work with our stakeholders to minimize any potential impacts of the final re-evaluation outcome.

With that Mr. Chair and honourable members of the committee, I welcome any comments and questions you or the members may have.

Thank you very much.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Pat Finnigan

Thank you, Mr. Aucoin.

Now we go to Ms. Johnston for up to 10 minutes.

Thank you.

11:10 a.m.

Andrea Johnston Director General, Sector Development and Analysis Directorate, Market and Industry Services Branch, Department of Agriculture and Agri-Food

Good morning. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

It is my pleasure to appear before this committee to discuss the department's activities regarding the multi-stakeholder forum, following Health Canada's publication of its proposed re-evaluation decision on imidacloprid.

Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada (AAFC) plays a facilitator role in bringing key players together in an effort to reach a common understanding of the issue and develop potential ways forward.

Neonics, including imidacloprid, are important insecticides for Canadian agricultural producers. Over the last two decades, they have replaced many active ingredients from previous generations and are commonly used by our trading partners.

Neonics are used on many crops including canola, soybeans, corn, pulses, horticulture crops such as potatoes and carrots, and to a lesser extent, wheat and barley. For many of these crops, neonics are applied as a seed treatment, where the coatings are applied to the seed before planting, which helps to contain and isolate the active ingredient. Neonics are also used as a foliar spray, where the pesticide is sprayed onto the leaves and fruit of the plant, as well as a soil application, where the pesticide is placed into furrows in the soil.

Given the widespread use and importance of pesticides to the agriculture sector, AAFC facilitated the multi-stakeholder forum for neonicotinoids. This forum brings together representatives from the agriculture industry, environmental stakeholders, academics, and officials from provincial and federal governments. Three working groups have been established, focused on environmental monitoring, mitigation of risks, and identification of alternatives.

The environmental monitoring working group is examining water monitoring data related to neonic levels in the environment. The working group obtained all data considered by PMRA for the proposed risk assessment, and any data that was brought to light subsequent to the publication of the draft report. Data collected by this working group is designed to help pinpoint specific application methods, uses, or other factors that may result in higher or lower levels in water.

The mitigation working group is researching and exploring possible risk mitigation actions that could lower concentrations of neonic actives in the environment below any risk thresholds identified by PMRA to cause harm to aquatic insects.

The alternatives working group is examining alternative products to imidacloprid for various crops and pest pressures. The working group is identifying whether there are alternative products available, whether those alternative products have disease or insect resistance, and providing a grower assessment of their viability as alternatives.

The working groups plan to submit their data and work plans to PMRA during the consultation period.

AAFC recognizes that changes to the availability of pest control products could have implications for farmers and the agricultural sector. Through open engagement and consultation, AAFC will continue to work with stakeholders and Health Canada to identify the best possible solutions.

Thank you very much.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Pat Finnigan

Thank you, Ms. Johnston.

We'll start our round of questions. We'll start with Mr. David Anderson, for six minutes.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank our guests for being here today.

I think many of us have a great concern about this decision we're here to talk about today. We want to try to sort out what has happened. There have been a number of scientific studies—and I've spent some time going over them—and it's interesting, from what I can see, that virtually all of the use has been within the guidelines that were proposed when the studies were done. They haven't found.... Other than some extreme points, one in the Morrissey study, everything seems to be within the guidelines recommended.

It's interesting that a couple of the studies seem to conclude there might be a problem in the future, but we don't really know what that is. That science apparently hasn't been done as well as it could have. I know the discussion around this started around the loss of the bee colonies and that there was a general sense that might have something to do with it. Science has basically proven there's not a direct correlation there right now.

The Ontario government reacted. You mentioned the words “public pressure”. I don't think they reacted to science. They reacted to public pressure. Now I'm concerned that we're seeing some of the same folks who would have been influencing the Ontario government in Ottawa here, and seeing some of the same reactions.

I want to ask a few questions. One of them has to do with the fact that there's relevant water monitoring data out there. I looked through the Morrissey study, and actually on imidacloprid, basically she found no detection on any of her studies in it. That chemical seems to be ruled out of her study. There's a lot of relevant water monitoring data out there, some of it Government of Canada data, that wasn't used in the assessment.

Can you explain why? Why wasn't a broader use of data used to make a decision?

11:15 a.m.

Scott Kirby Director General, Environmental Assessment Directorate, Pest Management Regulatory Agency, Department of Health

With respect to the water monitoring data, all the water monitoring data was considered. We received quite an extensive amount from across the country, more than we would normally have for a normal re-evaluation. Much of the information was lacking what we call ancillary data, which is data about where the site was, what was cropped around it, and whether the pesticide was used in those areas, so that information is of limited use in making a risk assessment decision.

The areas where we do have robust monitoring data include the Morrissey study as well as work that was done by Environment Canada in Ontario and the province of Quebec. Those sites have information about what was cropped there. Those sites had regular monitoring over the course of several years. In Ontario and Quebec, those sites indicated there were levels that were of concern to us.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK

A couple of those sites indicated that. When I look at those studies, that was not generally indicated. Am I correct? I looked at the studies. There are a couple of sites where the levels were high. Most of the sites were actually below the thresholds that had been set by the government.

I have another question, then, I guess. Have you changed the threshold? Are you changing thresholds? We have a completely different level of threshold depending on where we are. Canada has one. The U.S. EPA has a different one. The EU has another one. The EU is getting consistently tighter on their thresholds. What's going on with the thresholds? Are you changing them in Canada?

11:15 a.m.

Director General, Environmental Assessment Directorate, Pest Management Regulatory Agency, Department of Health

Scott Kirby

Absolutely, because—

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK

When I see the data, it looks to me as if most of the studies are within the thresholds that were set previously.

11:15 a.m.

Director General, Environmental Assessment Directorate, Pest Management Regulatory Agency, Department of Health

Scott Kirby

The thresholds are set based on the available data. Over the course of time, since imidacloprid has been registered, there have been many toxicity studies conducted that feed the information to develop thresholds. The more, what we call, “toxicity end points” you have, the more they feed into the development of thresholds. So yes, the thresholds have been changing based on the available information.

Our assessment now has included at least 30 different studies to develop that threshold. The threshold that we have lies basically in the middle of the published thresholds out there. There are thresholds that are more conservative than ours, and there are thresholds that are less conservative than ours.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK

Is it still at that 230?

11:15 a.m.

Director General, Environmental Assessment Directorate, Pest Management Regulatory Agency, Department of Health

Scott Kirby

Sorry...?

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK

Is it still at the 230 nanograms per litre? Is that where we're set in Canada now, or has that changed in the last couple of years?

11:15 a.m.

Director General, Environmental Assessment Directorate, Pest Management Regulatory Agency, Department of Health

Scott Kirby

It depends on what you're talking about.

With respect to the PMRA's benchmark that we're using for our risk assessment, our threshold is set at 0.04 micrograms per litre, I believe, for chronic effects. That is the benchmark we use for our risk assessment.

There are other thresholds that are published by Environment Canada, the U.S. EPA, and the European Union. Those are not necessarily thresholds we would use in an assessment.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK

Do you have a different assessment level than Environment Canada has?

11:15 a.m.

Director General, Environmental Assessment Directorate, Pest Management Regulatory Agency, Department of Health

Scott Kirby

The Environment Canada threshold was developed basically over a decade ago, I think, and it was based on a limited amount of information, so that threshold is no longer relevant.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK

You make a decision before the departments sit down together and set the thresholds they find acceptable. Do you have different thresholds in different departments?

11:15 a.m.

Director General, Environmental Assessment Directorate, Pest Management Regulatory Agency, Department of Health

Scott Kirby

No. We actually consulted with Environment Canada ahead of our decision. We shared our risk assessment with them. They went through it. They concurred with our approach. We also consulted with the Department of Agriculture ahead of time to discuss where we were at.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK

Everything looks as if your proposed decision is just based on some hypothetical risk to a couple of aquatic species. Do you have any real-world data to indicate that the species are actually being adversely impacted?

When I look at the studies, they indicate that the levels go up in the springtime and the levels drop off in the fall—which is exactly what we would expect—and that the levels are consistently below the threshold of where there is going to be a long-term problem.

You seem to believe there's something else going on here. Do you have any real-world data to back that up?

11:20 a.m.

Director General, Environmental Assessment Directorate, Pest Management Regulatory Agency, Department of Health

Scott Kirby

We have no real-world data in terms of impacts actually in the environment. We virtually never do. That's not something we normally receive. The information that we have is what we're basing our assessment on.

I just want to make sure we understand that the onus is on the registrant to provide us with the information to demonstrate that the risks are acceptable. So it's not—